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Tels wrote:
Ah yes... justification. If you can justify it, then it must be good right?

I would suggest that gladitorial combat can be less awful than other options. It's the "forced" that gets the evil tag.

I would not suggest that it is the "good" option, however.

Similarly, I find the idea of slavery to be not inherently evil... but finding genuinely good slavery and having it function properly is about as realistic as finding a functioning communist utopia - that is, given human nature, unlikely.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I must admit that I find the idea that any 'fight-to-the-death' could be considered a Good act abhorrent.


Yeah. It's like grandma always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". :P

Liberty's Edge

Well, I have a gargantuan headache so excuse my lack of common sense.

pretty much, criminals fighting to the death for the towns amusement is totally not evil and is more or less an effective way to place prisoners to good use.

forcing two random children to fight to the death because you can is not good.


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Terrible acts committed against terrible people are still terrible acts.


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snickersimba wrote:

Well, I have a gargantuan headache so excuse my lack of common sense.

pretty much, criminals fighting to the death for the towns amusement is totally not evil and is more or less an effective way to place prisoners to good use.

Punishment isn't evil persay, but you are hurting, oppressing, and killing as a form of entertainment. Just because you're doing it to someone that also was bad doesn't make it not evil, it just makes it justifiable evil.

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forcing two random children to fight to the death because you can is not good.

Which is pretty much the same, just without the justifiable aspect or the law aspects in it.

A truly good way of dealing with criminals would likely be through reformation and redemption. A more neutral manner would be to prevent them from posing a danger to those around them (such as exile, incarceration, or humane execution). A more evil manner would be things that torture, harm, or degrade them as human beings (such as throwing them into a pit and having them fight like game cocks for the entertainment of others).

That said, it's important to remember that the real world has a lot of middle area. A lot of good people often do evil things every day, and vice versa. And cultures and religions can play a big role into what is or isn't acceptable, but not what is or is not evil.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is why I try to remind people that it's not a binary thing. Acts can been neither good nor evil. So you don't have to say "this is Good!" When you are just trying to say it is non-evil.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
This is why I try to remind people that it's not a binary thing. Acts can been neither good nor evil. So you don't have to say "this is Good!" When you are just trying to say it is non-evil.

Well said. ^_^

Liberty's Edge

Well, theres always the worst punishment of all, being forced to work in an orcish brothel next to the chili house.

Also, what do you think of the new familiars?

What would you do if you woke up one morning and found yourself in a temple of iomeade after accidentally claiming to be a demonic cultist during a drunken stupor?


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snickersimba wrote:
Well, theres always the worst punishment of all, being forced to work in an orcish brothel next to the chili house.

Some orcs are sexay. :3

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Also, what do you think of the new familiars?

Do you mean the ones from the new familiar book by Paizo?

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What would you do if you woke up one morning and found yourself in a temple of iomeade after accidentally claiming to be a demonic cultist during a drunken stupor?

Tell them I've never been drunk prior and it caught me off guard. Ask them why Iomedae bothered to invade Ustalav when Tar Baphon wasn't really doing anything after bringing order to the counties and controlling the orc hordes in the area. Ask that they just use some divination spells to check that I was innocent and let me go. Leave an offering on the way out.

Possibly piss on a statue of Pharasma fifteen minutes later.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, the first ever construct basic familiar and a living plant

The iomeadian priests choose instead, as you have offended them most dearly, because you are not in ustalav, but in mendev, they choose to make you into a temple worker.

So you get to shine paladin armor and talk to really uptight clerics who have pointy swords.

Sounds fun!

I just threw a bouncy ball at your kitties.

What are your opinions on ALL of the ranger styles?


Slavery isn't exactly something an LG religious order would be fans of. :p

Liberty's Edge

Well, technically, they aren't slavers, they are simply keeping you here to atone for barfing on the high priestesses robes, defeaceating in the paladins helmet, peeing on the holy symbols and then claiming to be deskaris son.

They also need to make sure that you are simply human, not actually posessed by demons.


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snickersimba wrote:

Well, technically, they aren't slavers, they are simply keeping you here to atone for barfing on the high priestesses robes, defeaceating in the paladins helmet, peeing on the holy symbols and then claiming to be deskaris son.

They also need to make sure that you are simply human, not actually posessed by demons.

Detect magic->detect evil

"Nah, it's a dumb drunk". :P

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What are your opinions on ALL of the ranger styles?

Archery: Archery is the style of choice for switch-hitting rangers and for archery rangers (naturally). For switch hitters it allows you to get really good archery feats without bothering to qualify for them which can make you lethal at a distance while you devote your actual feats to other purposes. For archers, it allows you to get a jumpstart on archery feats and even laugh at Fighters since you get amazing feats before they can even dream of them.

2nd: Precise Shot or Rapid Shot
6th: Improved Precise Shot (11th minimum non-rangers), Manyshot (grab IPS if you have Point Blank and grabbed Rapid Shot earlier and take this at 7th instead), or Point Blank Master.
10th: Take some of the 6th level feats instead.

Crossbow: This style isn't worth discussing. Moving on.

Mounted Combat: Mounted combat is actually a really attractive style since a ranger gets an animal companion at 4th level which will stay relevant forever. Whether using melee or archery, mounted combat can be a big winner. Recommending for small-sized characters who can ride around on medium sized mounts without problems. Ranged characters on mounts are insanely good as they can move up to their mount's speed and full-attack with no penalties, and with mounted archery take minor penalties for zipping all over the place.

2nd: Mounted Archery (most recommended) or Trick Riding
6th: Spirited Charge
10th: Mounted Skirmisher

Nautral Weapons: Like crossbows, this combat style is not worth mentioning. It's only attractive if you're already a creature with a lot of natural attacks, but the feats that it offers are either terrible for a natural attacking ranger (vital strike) or are redundant (if natural attacks are your thing, you're going to craft an Amulet of Mighty Fists anyway making Eldritch Claws a moot point). The 10th level feat Multiattack doesn't even do anything for you unless, again, you already have a ton of natural attacks.

Throwing: It has some decent feats at 1st level and Close Quarter's Thrower is good at 6th, but it's all downhill from there and there's not really a lot of good feats in the 1st-6th levels to spend your higher level ones on. You'd probably be better off getting feats with the Archery or Two Weapon Fighting styles and dropping a few standard feats to fill in some gaps.

Two-Handed Weapon: Not a horrible style but far from my favorite. One of the problems with this style compared to others is it is trivially easy to make 2 handed weaponry useful. All you need is a good Strength score and maybe power attack. Further, the feats you can get with this are generally either very bad or are trivial to invest in without it.

2nd: Power Attack (everything else sucks).
6th: Furious Focus (everything else sucks).
10th: Everything sucks (dreadful carnage is useful in some niche cases but isn't anything to write home about).

Two-Weapon: Though not as generally useful as archery or mounted, two-weapon fighting style is actually really good for a focused melee bruiser. It's the key behind the "STR-RANGER" build in that you don't need a lot of Dexterity but pick up great dual-wielding feats like the Two-Weapon Fighting line, Double Slice, and Two-Weapon Rend while capitalizing on your great Strength Score.

Grab a few quickrunner's shirts and by high levels you'll move up and blend high profile targets (alternatively, dropping 3 feats into Mounted Combat->Trick Riding->Mounted Skirmisher gives you sort-of-pounce while on your animal companion).

Another thing I like about this style is it also has improved shield bash as a feat so you don't have to sacrifice survivability (shields are sweeeeeet). My recommended build for this is Improved Shield Bash with a normal feat, TWF at 2nd, Double Slice at 6th, Improved TWF and 10th, Greater TWF at 14th, and whatever else you want at 18th. The reason for this is because you won't have all your class features that boost your accuracy really high until later, so Improved and Greater aren't as reliable as soon as possible.

2nd: Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw
6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (grab double slice first)
10th: Greater Two Weapon Fighting (grab ITWF first)

Weapon and Shield: I love this style as I feel it's gloriously offensive and has a lot of resilience to boot. This style has a lot of overlap with the Two-Weapon style and is outright better for the purposes I'd like to use it for. At high levels your shield bashing becomes brutal.

My build recommendation: 1st level, get improved shield bash; 2nd level, two weapon fighting; 3rd level, shield focus; 5th level, double slice (having increased your Dex from 14 to 15 at 4th level); 6th level, shield mastery; 7th level, craft wondrous item; 9th level, craft magic arms and armor; 10th level, bashing finish; 11th level, improved two-weapon fighting; 14th level, greater shield focus; anything else is gravy (Improved Critical is nice).

At low levels you are very tanky with a good AC and you can deal some decent burst damage by dual-wielding your shield and main-hand weapon. At 6th level your shield's enhancement bonus on attacks and damage and ignore the penalties for two-weapon fighting with your shield. Bashing finish is where you go nuts since each critical you confirm with your main hand results in a free shield bash (use a scimitar). Rangers get Quarry which allows them to auto-confirm criticals vs their target (and gives massive bonuses). As a result you can very easily end up bursting down enemies who you begin full attacking with. Taking Improved Critical (heavy shield) can lead to some very potent surprise burst damage (since you can proc bashing finish with a shield bash).

Your shield of choice will be a +5 bashing spiked shield (which has a base damage of 2d6+5) with a few weapon enhancements on it. Each time you threaten and confirm a critical, you bash with this shield at the same bonus. When you auto-confirm hits (either with quarry or via bless weapon oils vs evil creatures) you will begin tearing them apart in short order.

Whatever you do, do not take Shield Slam. The feat makes it so every shield bash you use has a chance to push your opponent away from you. WHY WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO DO THIS!!?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As I recall, it was because you could smack the enemy with your main hand, then bash them out of reach of you to force them to lose their chance to full attack in return. Also, bash them into environmental hazards.


Weapon & Shield style is awesome for a 2-handed shield basher*! (I also generally rule that you can choose to ignore the benefits of a feat or ability if you want, so characters don't have to Bull Rush enemies if they don't want to. Not sure if it's RAW or RAI, though).

*I'd make a few changes to that build nowadays, but it's mostly the same... It can also be built to work in tandem with an Animal Companion... I just don't like having to worry about pets.

Liberty's Edge

Since crossbow mastery is on the archery list, what would be a better feat to replace it.

Also, I have added the skirmisher archetype to my half orc ranger grol.

He will not have an animal companion either. He would just eat it.

Also, why hasn't paizo made a feat that gives you a second ranger style?

What is your opinion on the monk styles?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I recall, it was because you could smack the enemy with your main hand, then bash them out of reach of you to force them to lose their chance to full attack in return. Also, bash them into environmental hazards.

I would like the feat if it gave you the option of when to use it. If you tried to make a sword & board ranger in a setting without GM-specific house rules (like Pathfinder Society) you'd be shooting yourself in the foot as every time you shield bashed as part of your TWF you risked throwing your enemy away from all your iterative attacks (because shield slam doesn't allow you to choose when it's used, it just procs on each bash).

Snickersimba wrote:
Since crossbow mastery is on the archery list, what would be a better feat to replace it.

If you felt the need (it's not really that important since it's got lots of other good feats competing with it) you could replace it with clustered shots.

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Also, I have added the skirmisher archetype to my half orc ranger grol.

Cool.

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He will not have an animal companion either. He would just eat it.

Hah. :P

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Also, why hasn't paizo made a feat that gives you a second ranger style?

Probably because the feat would be a no brainer and make Fighters cry in their cereal even more than they already do. Expend 1 feat to gain 5 other feats without prereqs? I'd have archery, sword & shield, two-weapon style, and mounted combat on every ranger ever. :P

That said, a feat to allow you to grab another feat off your combat style, or to get access to a second combat style (or both) would be really cool. One feat to expand your combat style options and a feat to select another from your pool that you qualify for via your styles.

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What is your opinion on the monk styles?

If you mean the style feats like crane, snake, kirin, etc.

Crane was cool. It's now a waste of space, get snake style instead.

Snake is awesome, much love for it I have.

The first feat of Boar Style is really nice, but the second is mostly underwhelming, while the third is a mechanical failure (it doesn't understand how bleed damage works and does nothing).

Kirin style is nice for psions, wizards, and bards. I was planning on picking these feats up for my psion a while back. It doesn't stop you from making a knowledge check normally, so it nets you 2 attempts at ID'ing a creature. +2 on saves vs a creature you ID is pretty sweet.

Dragon style is awesome for anyone who wants to wreck with unarmed attacks.

Mantis style is kind of trappy IMHO, because stunning fist is kinda meh, and the 2nd tier of the style is weird (allows you to remove the effects of stunning fists that you yourself did, which will come up basically never).

Monkey Style 1 & 2 are really cool defensively and the second gives you a climb and crawl speed (sweet!). The 3rd is of questionable value.

Panther style isn't bad for punishing AoOs. It's usefulness is a bit limited however since it never really graduates past punishing AoOs.

Pummeling Style is goofy good. It's clustered shots for your fists and the 3rd feat gives you pseudo-pounce. Has the potential for crazy burst criticals.

Snapping turtle is a waste of space.

I want to like tiger style but I just can't.

Same with wolf style.

Most any style revolving around elemental fist can suck a coconut.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I recall, it was because you could smack the enemy with your main hand, then bash them out of reach of you to force them to lose their chance to full attack in return. Also, bash them into environmental hazards.
I would like the feat if it gave you the option of when to use it. If you tried to make a sword & board ranger in a setting without GM-specific house rules (like Pathfinder Society) you'd be shooting yourself in the foot as every time you shield bashed as part of your TWF you risked throwing your enemy away from all your iterative attacks (because shield slam doesn't allow you to choose when it's used, it just procs on each bash).

It was less of a problem for my flind gnoll since she attacked with the shield bash after using her flind bar. So she had already taken all of her other attacks and was looking to get that bullrush in.


Pummeling Style is even more 'goofy good' because Pummeling Charge doesn't require Pummeling Bully.

Pummeling Charge wrote:
Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.

So pick up Pummeling Style anytime before level 9, then pick up Pummeling Charge at 9th level.

By the way, did you know that Inner Sea Combat expanded the list of Ranger Combat Styles to include specific Combat Styles for servants of a God?

Liberty's Edge

Also, you completely missed the archon style, you fool!

and the kolbold style, the jabbing style, the grabbing style and the earth child style.

The feat would be more or less, you pick a RELATED combat style.

So say you pick two weapon fighting, you could pick sword and shield, because they share a feat.

Stuff like that.


Hopefully without derailing the thread...

Did you get physically ill too when you heard that 50 Shades of Grey got turned into an actual, big-budget film marketed for Valentines Day of all things!?

I just found out about it. and I need to go lay down. I feel like I'm going to vomit.


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Artemis Moonstar wrote:

Hopefully without derailing the thread...

Did you get physically ill too when you heard that 50 Shades of Grey got turned into an actual, big-budget film marketed for Valentines Day of all things!?

I just found out about it. and I need to go lay down. I feel like I'm going to vomit.

Now I haven't experienced much of 50 shades beyond what a friend of mine shared with me (nor do I particularly want to), but based on what I recall and what has been shared with me, it seems running it as a "love story" is taking some serious liberties with the story. :P

Liberty's Edge

Ash, would you be pleased if I told you that I replaced my rat familiar with a bearded dragon?

Because munch the bearded dragon is way cooler

Also, would you like it if you were living in my version of pathfinders world? No third party content is allowed. At all.

There is no seoni either.

Shadow Lodge

Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I recall, it was because you could smack the enemy with your main hand, then bash them out of reach of you to force them to lose their chance to full attack in return. Also, bash them into environmental hazards.
I would like the feat if it gave you the option of when to use it. If you tried to make a sword & board ranger in a setting without GM-specific house rules (like Pathfinder Society) you'd be shooting yourself in the foot as every time you shield bashed as part of your TWF you risked throwing your enemy away from all your iterative attacks (because shield slam doesn't allow you to choose when it's used, it just procs on each bash).

Since when has any feat in pathfinder forced you to use it?

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I am in need of insight for writing a character's personality. Would you be willing to assist?


Tels wrote:


By the way, did you know that Inner Sea Combat expanded the list of Ranger Combat Styles to include specific Combat Styles for servants of a God?

Whoa, awesome!

...

Sarenraen rangers can get Whirlwind Attack without the awful feat chain?

What is the best sort of shenanigans to get into with Whirlwind Attack at level 6?


Serum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I recall, it was because you could smack the enemy with your main hand, then bash them out of reach of you to force them to lose their chance to full attack in return. Also, bash them into environmental hazards.
I would like the feat if it gave you the option of when to use it. If you tried to make a sword & board ranger in a setting without GM-specific house rules (like Pathfinder Society) you'd be shooting yourself in the foot as every time you shield bashed as part of your TWF you risked throwing your enemy away from all your iterative attacks (because shield slam doesn't allow you to choose when it's used, it just procs on each bash).
Since when has any feat in pathfinder forced you to use it?

Since it was written badly. Most abilities in the game use terminology such as "you may" or "you can" and such like that. Shield slam does not provide an option as to whether or not you bull rush them, merely anytime they are hit with a shield bash they are subject to a bull rush using the same attack roll without it being your choice.

I blame bad writing. However, if you're playing Pathfinder Society or some other scenario where "the rules are the rules" with no option to have your GM house rule it into being an option, it's going to ruin you since every time you shield bash you're going to risk throwing your foe out of range of your full attacks (which is good for them). This is doubly true since you can't choose what order you take your attacks in, so if you are two-weapon fighting and roll high on your 1st off-hand shield slam and push them, all your iterative attacks just got hosed.


snickersimba wrote:
Ash, would you be pleased if I told you that I replaced my rat familiar with a bearded dragon?

If you're happy, I'm happy. :)

Quote:
Also, would you like it if you were living in my version of pathfinders world? No third party content is allowed. At all.

Dunno. I'm not even sure if I'd like living in normal Golarion. :o

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There is no seoni either.

Bummer. :(


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I am in need of insight for writing a character's personality. Would you be willing to assist?

Sure. Able is a different matter but I'm always apt to try at least. :P


Braingamer wrote:
Tels wrote:


By the way, did you know that Inner Sea Combat expanded the list of Ranger Combat Styles to include specific Combat Styles for servants of a God?

Whoa, awesome!

...

Sarenraen rangers can get Whirlwind Attack without the awful feat chain?

What is the best sort of shenanigans to get into with Whirlwind Attack at level 6?

Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon/Armor Spikes + Assault feats can seem pretty cool. Just slap a bunch of people with status ailments (bleeding / dazing). At high levels, using a life-drinker weapon can inflict 2 negative levels on everything you whack.

Still highly situational but it looks cool and at least if you're dropping status ailments with the attacks you're doing something fairly worthwhile to your enemies. :)


Eh. Co-opted from my post in JAmes JAcob's AMA.

What classes/races would you see seeking the legendary writings of the exiled angel Tabris (all 3 book of the damned chapters, the chronicles of the righteous, and any other outer-planes alignment lore books they make. Really wanna see one for Aeons and Inevitables).

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I am in need of insight for writing a character's personality. Would you be willing to assist?
Sure. Able is a different matter but I'm always apt to try at least. :P

Okay! Long question time. Feel free to just PM me or something if you don't wanna waste time dealing with it here in the thread...

Spoiler:
I'm struggling with picking a proper personality for my latest character, a Flame Oracle, focusing on melee combat (I know, I know, battle is more appropriate, but flame is connected more with Sarenrae).

Here's his story:

Pelaios' parents were supposed to hate each other. His father was a scion of the noble house of Zenderholm, who joined a band of adventurers as his lowly position in the family meant little in the way of inheritance, and his mother was a Shoanti tribeswoman of the Sklar-Quah, exiled for some crime she refuses to speak of, joining the same band of adventurers to make a living the only way she knew how, fighting. But somehow, after adventuring together for a time, they fell in love and Pelaios was the result. His father ended up dying at some point before Pelaios was born, but not before expressing his wish that his son be accepted as a Zenderholm, bastard or no. Naturally, given the enmity between the Shoanti and Korvosa, the Zenderholms didn't give a crap about this, and Pelaios' mother was forced to raise him in the city slums, giving him the best life she could until Gaedren Lamm ambushed her in the street one night, killing her with a lucky shot and stealing the ring Pelaios' father had given her, a signet ring that could serves as proof of Pelaios' birthright.

I plan on having a Lawful Good alignment since through my conversations with James Jacobs, I've determined that generally when honor's a big part of a character's personality, they'll drift towards lawful even if they don't start there, and will be following Sarenrae's paladin code even though he's not a paladin himself. Here's its dictates:

  • I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
  • I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
  • I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
  • The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
  • I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
  • I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky.
  • I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the light of truth.
  • Each day is another step toward perfection. I will not turn back into the dark.

Using this, and his backstory, I've compiled a list of personality traits that I feel are sort of salient points of his character:

Stoic: He's had an undoubtedly crappy life, but he takes it without complaint. He seeks to endure hardship, rather than avoid it, since he feels he can take it where others can't.

Honorable: He tries to abide by the code above, as well as generally being honest and keeping his promises. This was why the Legalistic initially looked so appealing to me. Haunted fills the spot just as good as I can spin it as he's trying to live up to the expectations the spirits following him have.

Generous: As I said, he's had an undoubtedly crappy life, so he tries to help people with his time, talent and treasure (a phrase I remember from my old Catholic days). He tends to wounded and sick, protects people, and donates to make Korvosa a better place when he's not adventuring.

Wrathful: Following Sarenrae isn't a walk in the park. She's a goddess of forgiveness and redemption as well, and so he struggles with keeping his anger at injustice in check. One of the best examples is how he still wants to kill the man who murdered his mother. Now Sarenrae herself would understand his feelings, but he personally feels ashamed of his desire for revenge, and in combat he's all fire and fury, like he's cutting loose.

I'm trying to pick two more traits to make it an even six, like I've done with previous characters, and I'm stuck. Some people say it's okay as is, others say that he sounds like an overly-serious arse and that he needs some more humanizing/balancing traits:

"Basically you've created Batman, and Batman has always been the least interesting character in the Batman comics."

I want to fix this, especially since I want my upcoming Council of Thieves character to be Batman. :P

Any advice?


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Sorry that it's taken so long to reply. I've been pretty dead to the boards for the past week because of pulling a lot of extra hours at work lately. ^~^;

The character actually has several humanizing/negative traits because several of his existing traits are both good and bad. His fanaticism and faultless faith are a negative trait because anytime one is so devoted to anything that they will not question, reason, or be embarrassed when their faith is challenged isn't really a mature adult yet. Part of growing is learning to reason and find truth even in matters of faith. Through challenges faith is strengthened not weakened and someone who understands that their faith must be tempered with reason is someone who will seem far more well adjusted in the long run.

This seems to tie in with the wrathful aspect. Zealotry naturally gives rise to wrathfulness as when one is so vehemently insistent that their methods are infallible it severs their empathy towards others and makes it harder for them to relate to others by locking themselves in a mindset that will be alien to anyone who doesn't share their ideology or theology.

At cursory glance it would seem that this character has suffered for his entire life and while not evil persay has a deep need for what he would see as justice and a nearly blank check to authorize that justice. His faith is his crutch for not having to deal with the problems of his life like his loss of status, wealth, and loved ones. To blindly give your life to fight evils you want to lash out at is not bravery when you have little left to live for, it's a form of running away from what you are too afraid to face, so you charge headlong into a strawman to deliver swift justice (even if the strawman actually deserves retribution for its own misdeeds). Even his code restrains him from forming true bonds of love and friendship with his companions since he either dies fighting or his friends do, making them more allies than friends, which is reasonable because soldiers are expected to die, mothers and loved ones not so much.

So what is still important in his life? What is he living for? Does he really know himself? Is he still just running from his troubles? The reason he feels guilt for his need for vengeance is not because it is unjust but because it reminds him that his faith is of convenience and it connects to the truth inside of him. It makes it hard for him to look himself in the mirror each day. He's vehemently honest because he wants to be able to be an honest person, even though deep down he knows he's lying to himself with every passing day.

Because for all his fearlessness, bravery, and heroic prowess, he's still just running from that little bastard who lost everything that he loved. Too afraid to reach out to others and be human, he becomes a machine designed to serve others and deceive itself.

But lies are webs that inevitably unravel or become a knotted mess. What will happen when he finally has something to lose? What will happen when he once again allows himself to care about something truly without it being a crutch to lean on or a shield to hide behind? Will he be too fearful to embrace it, or will he try to ignore it with his stoicism, or run from it with his bravery, or will he grow up and be a real man and accept himself for what he is and free himself to accept others again?

Only time and experience (points) will tell. :)

Note: Feel free to ignore all of this if it's not to your liking. I don't want to tell anyone how to play their characters. Just offering something that comes to mind reading your post so take the ideas with a grain of salt. ^_^"

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like this. I like it a lot, especially since the whole "Who are you, and what do you want?" question is EXACTLY one I want to cover with him. Another trait I picked for him was Desultory, or aimless. He doesn't know where he fits in. Thank you!

You mind if I ask more questions along these lines in the future? I'd rather not bother the Devs with them, since their ask threads are more about the game and Golarion as a whole rather than in-depth specifics.


Ashiel wrote:
Sorry that it's taken so long to reply. I've been pretty dead to the boards for the past week because

Bah, you've been dead to me ever since you admitted way back on page 1 that you liked Karnath more than the other Eberron nations!

Quote:
because of pulling a lot of extra hours at work lately. ^~^;

Oh...that's a totally different story. Sorry about work, hope it payed off.

So...let's talk about wilders, the often looked down upon psion's cousin. The issue I always run into when I am building a wilder is that I overspecialize, because you get so few powers that you have to be careful there is minimal redundancy. Of course that's true of psions and sorcerers as well, but with the much smaller number of powers known wilders have a lot less room for error.

Metapsionics, the Extra Power feat, and augmentation all help. Whenever I pick powers for a wilder, I always really carefully think about how each one benefits from metapsionics and especially augmentation. Below 6th level powers, I never pick non-augmentable powers. But, lately I've been wondering if that is too narrow a view to take. Sure, it would hurt if too many of your powers don't scale, especially given that augmentation is the main wilder class feature, but maybe there are some instances where one or two nonaugmentable powers are good choices, and I just haven't thought of them. So the actual question I am asking you is
Actual Question: Are there 1st to 5th level powers which cannot be augmented that would be worthwhile for (some) Wilders to take?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How would you make a WoW Paladin, multiclass or gestalt? paladin/shield brawler? paladin/inquisitor?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
137ben wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Sorry that it's taken so long to reply. I've been pretty dead to the boards for the past week because
Bah, you've been dead to me ever since you admitted way back on page 1 that you liked Karnath more than the other Eberron nations!

No sweat. The main reason Karnath jumps to the forefront of my mind is because of some material I read about the pre-WotC Eberron, the Cult of Vol, and oddly enough the starter adventure in the back of the book (for some reason the "fine Karnathi paper" made things feel a little more alive with such a simple description).

It was my understanding that Keith Baker's original Cult of Vol was a little less evil than the WotC version and had some cool ideas. I also thought the country was really cool using undead as the majority of their armies (always a great idea) as opposed to enslaving sentient constructs (warforged) and elementals (golems / airships) which seemed like a bad idea.

That said, I really wanted to explore the country with the Inspired a lot more and Reidra but never really got the chance (save for one campaign which took place in Sharn, I got to GM precious little Eberron, and when I once wanted to play a Kalashtar in Reidra, the GM was like "That'd never work" and we did something else). I do remember thinking the big oval-shaped ziggurats in the art were cool.

I should probably run an Eberron game again sometime but lately I've been so busy that my own campaign is the only one I've had time to run. :o

Quote:
Quote:
because of pulling a lot of extra hours at work lately. ^~^;
Oh...that's a totally different story. Sorry about work, hope it payed off.

Yeah, short handed. On the plus side, I've got more overtime pay in the past few weeks than I did in the last year I think, so it's at least letting me put aside a little extra for a rainy day. I miss free time though. :P

Quote:

So...let's talk about wilders, the often looked down upon psion's cousin. The issue I always run into when I am building a wilder is that I overspecialize, because you get so few powers that you have to be careful there is minimal redundancy. Of course that's true of psions and sorcerers as well, but with the much smaller number of powers known wilders have a lot less room for error.

Metapsionics, the Extra Power feat, and augmentation all help. Whenever I pick powers for a wilder, I always really carefully think about how each one benefits from metapsionics and especially augmentation. Below 6th level powers, I never pick non-augmentable powers. But, lately I've been wondering if that is too narrow a view to take. Sure, it would hurt if too many of your powers don't scale, especially given that augmentation is the main wilder class feature, but maybe there are some instances where one or two nonaugmentable powers are good choices, and I just haven't thought of them. So the actual question I am asking you is
Actual Question: Are there 1st to 5th level powers which cannot be augmented that would be worthwhile for (some) Wilders to take?

Well let's have a look. I'll be honest and say I'm a talent-whore, so I'm actually going to list quite a few talents as well. To my knowledge, you can trade 1 power known for 5 talents plus whatever you start with normally (1 for wilders). This is actually one of my favorite uses for the Extra Power Known feat (pick up 5 talents) and is one of my favorite things to do with a wilder at low levels since the talents let you do magic-y stuff when you're not poppin' real ones.

Talents


  • Conceal thoughts: This power is a +10 bonus to Bluff and +4 vs Mind-reading saves. Super amazing talent (probably should be nerfed a bit to +5 or something but I'm not complaining :P). Doesn't augment but it doesn't need to.
  • Detect psionics: It's detect magic. Of course you want this. It's technically augmentable (makes it identify, yay) but you won't augment it most of the time.
  • Empathy: Gives a +2 to most social checks. It's sustainable for when you need it and it's a nice roleplaying ability too if you want to be the guy/gal who's like, "Something's bothering you...do you wanna talk about it?". It's augmentable but you rarely will even later on.
  • Energy splash: Allows you minor prestidigitation-like uses (like heating/cooling, lightning fires, etc) and can be a decent ray attack at low levels. Doesn't augment but it's mostly so you don't need matches.
  • Create sound: It's just fun.
  • Sense Poison: Never needs augmenting, always useful. :)
  • Far Hand: Short range mage-hand style telekinesis. Why not?
  • Unearthly Terror: Okay, I know you said powers that don't augment much but this one's too good to not mention. It's a simple 1 round save vs shaken for 0 PP as a talent. However you can augment it into fear style which makes it useful even mid-late game with surges.
  • My light: It's an easy light source that keeps your hands free.
  • Missive: One-way telepathic messages for 0 PP. Yes please.

    1st Level Powers

  • Inevitable stike: It's augmentable but generally inefficient to do so. Swift for +5 hit/ignore concealment is really nice on a wilder and you can surge it to get some more accuracy late on. Since wilders are built like clerics this is a good option.
  • Entangling ectoplasm: You could augment it but it's mostly like a cheap tanglefoot bag in most cases (ranged touch vs 5 rounds of entanglement). A solid debuff for medium-sized foes even if you never spend more than 1 PP on it ever.
  • Ectoplasmic sheen: One of my favorite powers. You can augment it but I rarely do as it's more fun to spam grease for 1 PP. Utterly wrecks giants and golems. I recommend greasing weapons regularly (basically save vs disarm, forces multiple saves to try to keep picking the weapon up). If you ever really need to, it's got an expensive augment that turns it into a powerful CC ability.
  • Prescience, Offensive: +2 damage for 10 rounds/level for 1 PP. Though it has some expensive augments it's forever useful even at 1 PP. Weapon specialization can eat poo and die! >:3
  • Synesthete: Easily one of the best non-augmentable powers in the game. Basically allows you to see without your eyes for 10 minutes/level and gives a +4 to Perception when you're not suffering any sensory loss. Still foiled by things like blur and invisibility but you can walk around in the dark like daredevil. :D
  • Locate secret doors: Spells like this suck ass. On a psionicist it's actually a really cool thing to have in your toolbox for a dungeon crawler game.

    2nd Level Powers

  • Concealing Amorpha: It's psionic blur. It's augmentable but you probably never will for most characters (its augment requires you to have a huddle-buddy to do anything).
  • Elfsight: Gives low-light vision/+2 perception for hours/level. Combos with my light for stupid-long vision range in the dark. Not a bad grab if you're a race without low-light vision (humans, dwarfs, etc).
  • Energy Adaptation, Specified: It's resist energy for yourself for 3 PP. Scales with caster level to resist 30. You can surge it to augment it to an immediate action if a dragon ambushes you or something.
  • Inflict pain: -2 untyped penalty to attacks, skills, and ability checks and a -4 on a failed save. Since it always inflicts a -2 at least it's a solid debuff forever even if you never augment it. If you DO augment it, you can debuff multiple enemies at once. Excellent support power.
  • Natural linguist: It's kind of like tongues and the augment is almost always useless but it's nice to have in a pinch if you've got spare powers known (unlikely barring very specific wilder builds) but you might consider carrying a power stone to assess in the rare cases you need to use it.
  • Share pain: No augments, doesn't need 'em. Split damage between yourself and a willing recipient. Grab a psicrystal, split damage with it, and share vigor and tank like a boss.

    3rd Level Powers

  • Concussive onslaught: You can augment it but it's a great fire and forget area denial power without augmenting. It's fairly easy to make an enmormous area off-limits for most folks.
  • Dispel psionics: Dispel magic spam. You can augment it later but you'll frequently not. Useful forever with augmenting so good for wilders.
  • Energy retort: Augment increases the duration by a minor bit. Power is a good power for punishing people for attacking you.
  • Energy wall: Solid CC ability and the closest thing to wind-wall that psionicists have (sonic wall ignores hardness of objects passing through it so you can just destroy arrows being fired at you). Scales with caster level not augmenting.
  • Telekinetic force: It's decent without augmenting in the ways telekinesis is.
  • Time hop: This power is fun. Just read it. Augmenting optional.
  • Touchsight: This power is one of my favorites. You get touchsight 60 ft. without augments. Super awesome for dealing with close-range illusions, ferreting out stealthed foes, and avoiding getting meleed to death from improved invisible enemies.

To be Continued...
Gotta run do some stuff but I'll get back ASAP. I'd also recommend checking out some of the other power lists for Expanded Knowledge fodder. For example, Psionic Minor Creation is really cool. :D


Kryzbyn wrote:
How would you make a WoW Paladin, multiclass or gestalt? paladin/shield brawler? paladin/inquisitor?

I'd need to think about it. Off the top of my head I you could probably do it with any of the following.

Cleric 20
Paladin 20 + Homebrew (my brother has a Holy Shock feat he uses to turn his Lay on Hands into blasts).
Psychic Warrior 20
Wilder 20

You could alternatively go Paladin 2 / Wilder 18. Basically grab weapon / armor proficiences + divine grace from Paladin, then use wilder to snatch up more casting power. Both classes benefit a lot from speccing really hard into Charisma (gives +saves and +PP). Grab a psicrystal + share pain and create a vigor loop (surge dat sheet!) to absorb lots of physical punishment. You can get some AoE abilities and manifest them at your lowest values and surge, surge, surge. You can use some different surge bonds to decide how to spec your guy. I'm fond of the student surge, efficient surge, leader surge (your paladin levels make you immune to shaken conditions!), raging surge (surprisingly awesome for ret-paladin types, also allows you to get divine bond + superstitution ^.^), and warrior's surge.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I like this. I like it a lot, especially since the whole "Who are you, and what do you want?" question is EXACTLY one I want to cover with him. Another trait I picked for him was Desultory, or aimless. He doesn't know where he fits in. Thank you!

You're quite welcome.

Quote:
You mind if I ask more questions along these lines in the future? I'd rather not bother the Devs with them, since their ask threads are more about the game and Golarion as a whole rather than in-depth specifics.

Go for it. :)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
How would you make a WoW Paladin, multiclass or gestalt? paladin/shield brawler? paladin/inquisitor?

I'd need to think about it. Off the top of my head I you could probably do it with any of the following.

Cleric 20
Paladin 20 + Homebrew (my brother has a Holy Shock feat he uses to turn his Lay on Hands into blasts).
Psychic Warrior 20
Wilder 20

You could alternatively go Paladin 2 / Wilder 18. Basically grab weapon / armor proficiences + divine grace from Paladin, then use wilder to snatch up more casting power. Both classes benefit a lot from speccing really hard into Charisma (gives +saves and +PP). Grab a psicrystal + share pain and create a vigor loop (surge dat sheet!) to absorb lots of physical punishment. You can get some AoE abilities and manifest them at your lowest values and surge, surge, surge. You can use some different surge bonds to decide how to spec your guy. I'm fond of the student surge, efficient surge, leader surge (your paladin levels make you immune to shaken conditions!), raging surge (surprisingly awesome for ret-paladin types, also allows you to get divine bond + superstitution ^.^), and warrior's surge.

I was thinking more prot pally, not necessarily for tankage (which is kinda pointless without aggro mechanics) but more for the Avenger's shield, consecrate, etc.

The holy shock idea is a good one, though!
The rest was simply beast. I might throw that character at my Way of the Wicked players...


Kryzbyn wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
How would you make a WoW Paladin, multiclass or gestalt? paladin/shield brawler? paladin/inquisitor?

I'd need to think about it. Off the top of my head I you could probably do it with any of the following.

Cleric 20
Paladin 20 + Homebrew (my brother has a Holy Shock feat he uses to turn his Lay on Hands into blasts).
Psychic Warrior 20
Wilder 20

You could alternatively go Paladin 2 / Wilder 18. Basically grab weapon / armor proficiences + divine grace from Paladin, then use wilder to snatch up more casting power. Both classes benefit a lot from speccing really hard into Charisma (gives +saves and +PP). Grab a psicrystal + share pain and create a vigor loop (surge dat sheet!) to absorb lots of physical punishment. You can get some AoE abilities and manifest them at your lowest values and surge, surge, surge. You can use some different surge bonds to decide how to spec your guy. I'm fond of the student surge, efficient surge, leader surge (your paladin levels make you immune to shaken conditions!), raging surge (surprisingly awesome for ret-paladin types, also allows you to get divine bond + superstitution ^.^), and warrior's surge.

I was thinking more prot pally, not necessarily for tankage (which is kinda pointless without aggro mechanics) but more for the Avenger's shield, consecrate, etc.

The holy shock idea is a good one, though!
The rest was simply beast. I might throw that character at my Way of the Wicked players...

Sheesh, took long enough to get a chance to respond! D:

I <3 Prot Paladins. I played Prot as my primary spec during WotLK (last x-pack I played, also my favorite out of the ones I've played). They're tons of fun and really awesome (my brother played a Healadin and the two of us just steamrolled a bunch of x-faction guys in Hellfire Peninsula around level 63 or so*).

Building a prot-themed Paladin in Pathfinder would most likely take a lot of homebrew. You can fake it a bit with psionics (about the only hope you'll get for AoE stuff centered on yourself), and with one of those throwing belts and a throwing shield you can at least chuck a shield bash at people but getting it to do things like bounce, slow, or silence people will take some homebrew I think.

Some Homebrew:

I've been toying with a few ideas for Paladins that involves sealing their spell slots to give them access to supernatural/spell-like abilities that they can use instead of their spells. Here's some examples themed after a Prot-Paladin that I'm throwing together for you now.

Idea Overview
When the Paladin prepares spells he may invest spell slots into an oath. Once this is done, the spell slot is expended and the Paladin gains the oath's ability until he could prepare a new spell in the expended slot. Oaths are either spell-like or supernatural and may be used at-will unless noted otherwise. Some oaths provide passive benefits. Some oaths allow the paladin to invest more than one spell-slot into them for greater effect. Some oaths allow the Paladin to expend a prepared spell or unused spell slot later to improve the ability for a period of time.

Judgment of Light (Sp): As a swift action, you judge a creature within short range (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 paladin levels) with holy light. For a 5 rounds, each time the creature is hit with a melee or ranged attack their attacker heals a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the invested spell slot. The effective level of this spell-like ability is equal to the level of the spell slot invested.
Devotion: You may invest additional spell slots into this oath. Judgment of Light now deals an amount of divine damage equal to the total levels of additional spell slots invested (so investing two additional 3rd level slots would deal 6 points of divine damage to the target of the ability).

Consecration (Sp): As a swift action, you bless the area with a field of retributive magic that scorches through the defenses of your enemies with divine radiance. The radius of the blessing is equal to 25 ft. + 5 ft. / level, centered on you when you use this ability. Each round, any enemy that begins its turn within the affected area suffers divine damage equal to twice the level of the invested spell slot. The area remains consecrated for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 3 rounds). Using this ability while a previous use is still in effect ends the duration of the previous use. The effective level of this spell-like ability is equal to the level of the spell slot invested.
Devotion: You may invest additional spell slots into this oath. Increase the damage this ability deals each round by twice the level of all invested spell slots (investing four 4th level spell slots would cause all enemies within the area to suffer 32 points of divine damage each round spent in the area).

Divine Protection (Sp): You gain hardness equal to the level of the invested invested spell slot. Additionally, you gain a sacred bonus on saving throws equal to the level of the invested spell slot.
Sacrifice: You may sacrifice a prepared spell or unused spell slot to multiply the benefits of this ability for 5 rounds. For example, if you invested a 4th level spell slot, you gain hardness 4 and a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws. If later you sacrifice a 4th level spell or available spell slot, your hardness and saving throw bonus would become 16 for 5 rounds.

Avenger's Shield (Su): As a standard action, you may hurl your shield at enemies within short range (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 paladin levels) as a ranged attack. You may choose up to 3 enemies within 15 ft. of each other to attack. Make a single ranged attack roll to be used against each enemy, applying all appropriate modifiers (such as weapon enhancement bonuses on the shield). The attack gains a bonus equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier. Each enemy that would be hit takes damage as if the Paladin hit them with a shield bash attack, except that bash deals divine damage. Additionally, enemies that are struck must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Paladin's level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier) or be staggered for a number of rounds equal to the level of the invested spell slot. After the attack resolves, the shield immediately returns to the Paladin.

There's probably also some Path of War stuff that could help a lot with this sort of concept.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

All good stuff! I'm totally shocked!
:)

I own path of war but have not read it yet...that may have to change...


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Any word on the adventure with the white dragon?

Might have missed it somewhere.

Also, love your slow posting blog. Filled with good stuff.


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Mathius wrote:

Any word on the adventure with the white dragon?

Might have missed it somewhere.

Also, love your slow posting blog. Filled with good stuff.

It's been at the top of "do as soon as possible" list. Unfortunately I'm pulling more overtime this next week and won't have any days off again, so I'm not sure when it'll be done. My last day off I've had was pretty much devoted to the players in my current campaign as they've been chomping at the bit for the next session.

Also thanks, I appreciate it. ^_^


life before net makes sense


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Mathius wrote:
life before net makes sense

Yeah but it can be a drag sometimes. I've got so many things I want to work on for various reasons (poor Kryzbyn has been waiting on an update to the Warlock pdf for heaven knows how long), I've had to put my d20 reboot on hold for a bit (though I might be teaming up with Aratrok to collaborate on it), and I want to finish a primer for my campaign setting to make it available to the general public.

So much to do, so little time. Oh well, I'm in the process of trying to get a different job with more stable/reasonable hours/better benefits so maybe when that happens I'll be able to get back to things I'm a bit more passionate about. :)


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Who are you?
What do you want?
Where are you going?
Why are you here?


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The NPC wrote:
Who are you?

Ashiel.

Quote:
What do you want?

Happiness.

Quote:
Where are you going?

Time will tell.

Quote:
Why are you here?

To help when I can.


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Who do you serve and who do you trust?

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