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Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
P.s. Wrote this and accidentally pressed "Cancel" instead of "Submit Post". Blessed be Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and heightened fine motor skills on an adrenaline rush I got when I realised browser was about to delete the whole thing.
Someone recommended me the Lazerus addon. If my post gets eaten, it lets me recover it. :)

I find something wrong in needing addons to write posts on a forum. I would rather use Notepad to write them, then copypaste text here, which is what I do if I expect the thing to be long. This one was supposed to be shorter, but creativity wouldn't go back into the box after I let it out.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
P.s. Wrote this and accidentally pressed "Cancel" instead of "Submit Post". Blessed be Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and heightened fine motor skills on an adrenaline rush I got when I realised browser was about to delete the whole thing.
Someone recommended me the Lazerus addon. If my post gets eaten, it lets me recover it. :)

Lazerus for life. I can go back months and find old things I've written.


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>if realism is done properly, it makes the world feel more alive.

Although, to be fair, for some incomprehensible reason a lot of people I talked to didn't feel that way. It's almost like they want their fiction with glaring plot holes the size of titanic. And when you try to ask questions like "But why didn't Gandalf use eagles from the start? Would have saved the party a whole lot of trouble.", expecting a nice conversation where both sides try to find an in-universe reason for why that happened, they instead get pissed and try to accuse you of being a soulless husk of a person who can't enjoy anything in their life.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
P.s. Wrote this and accidentally pressed "Cancel" instead of "Submit Post". Blessed be Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C and heightened fine motor skills on an adrenaline rush I got when I realised browser was about to delete the whole thing.
Someone recommended me the Lazerus addon. If my post gets eaten, it lets me recover it. :)
Lazerus for life. I can go back months and find old things I've written.

I think you were in fact the one who recommended it to me. :P

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I recommend it a lot around here.


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Klara Meison wrote:

>if realism is done properly, it makes the world feel more alive.

Although, to be fair, for some incomprehensible reason a lot of people I talked to didn't feel that way. It's almost like they want their fiction with glaring plot holes the size of titanic. And when you try to ask questions like "But why didn't Gandalf use eagles from the start? Would have saved the party a whole lot of trouble.", expecting a nice conversation where both sides try to find an in-universe reason for why that happened, they instead get pissed and try to accuse you of being a soulless husk of a person who can't enjoy anything in their life.

Well, the thing is, realism is a bit of a spectrum. In your example before, you assumed being on fire would be instantly fatal and thus 40d6 points of damage. Thing is, 40d6 points of damage is a scale in d20, and that equates to an average of 140 damage.

Now even dividing for half damage due to being energy, that means the fire elemental leaning on a stone wall would begin instantly melting the wall into bits (dealing about 62 damage / round of exposure to the stone) which would be crazy insane hot.

And this is where the scales and spectrum come in.

See, heroes in D&D aren't realistic. They're supernaturally tough. They're the sort who get hit with a giant's mallet and get thrown fifteen feet down a ravine, climb back up pissed off, and ready for more.

Normal people in d20 have like 3-6 hit points. Normal people are like commoners and are traditionally assumed to have an average of +0 in their Constitution and take average Hp for their hit dice. Which means that 2d6 fire damage from a fire elemental is very lethal if it gives them a bear hug. It will burn them so badly as to cause them to die in a span of 12-18 seconds of exposure.

Similarly, being set on fire (such as with an oil or alchemist fire) is usually 1d6 damage, for much the same reason. A normal person can survive a few rounds of being on fire, depending on how engulfed in flames they are, and live to tell about it, but it's a risky business.

However, a high level D&D character could arm wrestle with the fire elemental and the fire elemental would bemoan that the character was squeezing too hard.

Which is where the fantastic element comes in. If we're talking about gritty realism, heroes would never leave the realm of "I shat myself to death because the river water was dirty" and into the realm of "I attempt to suplex the balor!", which is more or less why we have little abstractions like these.

:P


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Put another way, the fire elemental's 2d6 fire damage is a scale that indicates how crazy hot it actually is. It's not hot enough to melt stone and you could trap it inside a stone room (at 1/2 energy damage, the fire will never pierce the 8 hardness of the stone), but most normal people with between 1-12 hit points are in serious danger.

Which is what a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. 2d6 damage is actually a lot of damage for a normal person to take. A single 1d8 arrow actually has a pretty decent chance of killing the average person without rolling a critical (it's likely that it will drop them to 0 or fewer hit points and they will likely bleed to death without help).

Which makes it all the more epic and fantastic when your 20th level barbarian leaps off a 60 ft. cliff and buries his axe in the skull of the Tarrasque, then proceeds to engage in a one man versus cataclysmic terror, only to beat it into submission (because the Tarrasque is going to get spanked like a four year old in K-Mart by a 20th level martial).


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Ok, so with that being said... How does a lvl 1 commoner react to the omnipotence of adventurers?
You rarely encounter a peasant who shows primal fear to the lvl 3 sorcerer but burning hands is more fatal than an elemental hug.
Bar brawls are a pretty prevalent rpg motif but a drunken lvl 2 warrior would find a lvl 5 rogue to be an almost invincible God ninja... And it it usually a monk or barbarian that those fights get picked with...
At some point normal commoners are hardly worth the time to save dispite the prestige since a rampaging gorgon could decimate an entire hamlet yet represent no challenge or reward for the lvl 10 cleric to quell.

This may be a side point but do your players ever encounter OTHER players? Like how often Is another NPC not an NPC?

I noticed that even when watching Grimgar (which I still recommend but it definitely softens in appeal as it continues) when the Goblin Slayers go out to 'hunt' there is NEVER another adventure ring group to be found...

Have you ever planned a Heist and just as you were started the alarm was sounded and a rapscallion gnome comes bolting around he corner with arms full of loot?

Or gone to save the princess in the tower to finding the guarding dragon slain and tousled sheets but no damsel (in distress or otherwise?)

Not saying it should happen ALL the time but... We can't be the only adventurers out here... Right?


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What's in the box? wrote:

Ok, so with that being said... How does a lvl 1 commoner react to the omnipotence of adventurers?

You rarely encounter a peasant who shows primal fear to the lvl 3 sorcerer but burning hands is more fatal than an elemental hug.

This actually came up in the last big campaign I ran. In the latter stages of the campaign, the heroes who were doing normal stuff back at 1st-3rd level had grown into powerful forces through the trials they had faced, so when they returned to their lands, they hadn't really realized it but they were like new people returning, and they were in many ways very scary.

In fact, the very order that sent them on the mission, began to question if they were a threat to the security that their order provided to their country. Their templar council was concerned that the party's Paladin and Templar Sorceress had become so powerful that they would be a dangerous threat if they went rogue, which was true.

At one point, the two (who were having some relationship issues that needed to be worked out) were training in a large cathedral (the church has a militant presence, so they have a large training area, kind of like a dojo, on the back side of the cathedral). While the two were sparring, they began revving up the pace of their fighting to a point where the two of them were actually struggling against each other. The intense power between the Paladin and the Sorceress resulted in a number of the high council and the other members of their order coming to watch. Most were terrified of what they saw, and the council was highly concerned (and also rather scared, honestly), because it became very obvious that if the Paladin or Sorceress decided to no longer be good guys there was nothing that their superiors could do about it.

Even back when they were 6th level, they put the fear of god into a criminal ring as they effortlessly trounced a large ambush consisting of a bunch of 1st level warrior thugs and mercenaries.

Quote:

This may be a side point but do your players ever encounter OTHER players? Like how often Is another NPC not an NPC?

I noticed that even when watching Grimgar (which I still recommend but it definitely softens in appeal as it continues) when the Goblin Slayers go out to 'hunt' there is NEVER another adventure ring group to be found...

Have you ever planned a Heist and just as you were started the alarm was sounded and a rapscallion gnome comes bolting around he corner with arms full of loot?

Or gone to save the princess in the tower to finding the guarding dragon slain and tousled sheets but no damsel (in distress or otherwise?)

Not saying it should happen ALL the time but... We can't be the only adventurers out here... Right?

Right. The other adventuring party is a pretty longstanding trope in D&D but it doesn't get a lot of attention these days. I've had players encounter other parties (in fact, a friend of mine had a character saved from Mummy Rot because they encountered a party with a healer that was heading to the same dungeon).


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Klara Meison wrote:

>Kingmaker thing Tacticslion wrote

What is the will save of that king? Unless it is approximately +50, he is quite vulnerable to mind control, and so is his country as a result. Would be a shame if a high-level succubus mindraped him and tweaked some things in the laws.

>Kyton thing Icehawk wrote

Wow, that is just, wow. My brain keeps coming up with ways to abuse this, but most of them would end with Inevitables coming down on your head in seconds, probably. Ability to play 20 questions with the universe where universe doesn't lie all the time is crazy broken.

It's even called out in their ecology that this is a thing they can do. They may not know why such a thing they say is false, but they simply cannot state it. It's... So absurdly abusable that I am just going to drag one into a binding circle every game. Obviously the risk is it can refuse to repeat something that's true just to mess with you but that's where magical compulsions come in.


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The problem in Pathfinder is Paizo seems to have taken a much different view on what the commoner is. I mean, cutthroat lawyer is 9th level according to the NPC coded.

You know, in looking through NPC Codex again, it'd be amusing to generate a world based on the stats of NPCs in the codex. Like play in a campaign where the law firm down the street also happens to be one of the deadliest groups of warriors in the town. Where the Princess only needs rescuing because she wants to be rescued. Where the 2nd level city guard calls upon the local tavern for backup (barkeep and barmaids).

Truly, a crazy world.


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Tels wrote:

The problem in Pathfinder is Paizo seems to have taken a much different view on what the commoner is. I mean, cutthroat lawyer is 9th level according to the NPC coded.

You know, in looking through NPC Codex again, it'd be amusing to generate a world based on the stats of NPCs in the codex. Like play in a campaign where the law firm down the street also happens to be one of the deadliest groups of warriors in the town. Where the Princess only needs rescuing because she wants to be rescued. Where the 2nd level city guard calls upon the local tavern for backup (barkeep and barmaids).

Truly, a crazy world.

Yeah, Paizo's NPCs seem to have little to no sense of scale. According to the gamemastering NPC gallery, your average prostitute is a heroic character. >_>

I guess my views have mostly been colored by the original D20/D&D system, and d20 commentary stuff like the Alexandrian.


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Icehawk wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:

>Kingmaker thing Tacticslion wrote

What is the will save of that king? Unless it is approximately +50, he is quite vulnerable to mind control, and so is his country as a result. Would be a shame if a high-level succubus mindraped him and tweaked some things in the laws.

>Kyton thing Icehawk wrote

Wow, that is just, wow. My brain keeps coming up with ways to abuse this, but most of them would end with Inevitables coming down on your head in seconds, probably. Ability to play 20 questions with the universe where universe doesn't lie all the time is crazy broken.

It's even called out in their ecology that this is a thing they can do. They may not know why such a thing they say is false, but they simply cannot state it. It's... So absurdly abusable that I am just going to drag one into a binding circle every game. Obviously the risk is it can refuse to repeat something that's true just to mess with you but that's where magical compulsions come in.

Two thoughts. 1, you could try asking questions like "Is A true? If yes, stay silent." to prevent them from shutting up. 2, they might say a lot of things that are true that wouldn't be something you would like to hear. E.g. "What is the mass of an electron?"->"You were adopted, your mother never loved you, she tried to kill you 3 times during your childhood but was always stopped by someone else. Also 9.10938356 × 10-31 kilograms."


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Klara Meison wrote:
Icehawk wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:

>Kingmaker thing Tacticslion wrote

What is the will save of that king? Unless it is approximately +50, he is quite vulnerable to mind control, and so is his country as a result. Would be a shame if a high-level succubus mindraped him and tweaked some things in the laws.

>Kyton thing Icehawk wrote

Wow, that is just, wow. My brain keeps coming up with ways to abuse this, but most of them would end with Inevitables coming down on your head in seconds, probably. Ability to play 20 questions with the universe where universe doesn't lie all the time is crazy broken.

It's even called out in their ecology that this is a thing they can do. They may not know why such a thing they say is false, but they simply cannot state it. It's... So absurdly abusable that I am just going to drag one into a binding circle every game. Obviously the risk is it can refuse to repeat something that's true just to mess with you but that's where magical compulsions come in.
Two thoughts. 1, you could try asking questions like "Is A true? If yes, stay silent." to prevent them from shutting up. 2, they might say a lot of things that are true that wouldn't be something you would like to hear. E.g. "What is the mass of an electron?"->"You were adopted, your mother never loved you, she tried to kill you 3 times during your childhood but was always stopped by someone else. Also 9.10938356 × 10-31 kilograms."

Ehhh, They can't SPEAK a false statement, nothing says they can't mislead you through other means. They are happiest when making everyone miserable through honesty, but are willing to be deceptive to their own ends. So they're allowed to refuse to say the truth, they simply can never say something false. Nothing says they have to correct your false statements.

But that's why you used magic to compel cooperation. Nothing can make them tell a lie. Not even magic. But you can at least make them tell the truth.


How would you price a permanent cantrip item? Rules for magical items put the price at 0, which seems rather silly.


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Klara Meison wrote:
How would you price a permanent cantrip item? Rules for magical items put the price at 0, which seems rather silly.
Core Rulebook - Magic Items: Item Creation wrote:

Spell Level: A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price.

1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
3 An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

So if a 1st level item has a cost of something like 1 x CL x 2,000 gp (permanent item), it would cost 0.5 x CL x 2,000 gp or effectively CL x 1,000 gp.

You would then modify the cost based on the duration of the spell in question.


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Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
How would you price a permanent cantrip item? Rules for magical items put the price at 0, which seems rather silly.
Core Rulebook - Magic Items: Item Creation wrote:

Spell Level: A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price.

1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
3 An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.
4 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

So if a 1st level item has a cost of something like 1 x CL x 2,000 gp (permanent item), it would cost 0.5 x CL x 2,000 gp or effectively CL x 1,000 gp.

You would then modify the cost based on the duration of the spell in question.

... Apparently, I am blind. Thanks)


Going back to the subject of realism, for me it isn't about heroes not having HP pools(that is just a law of pathfinder universe, people who fight monsters turn into unkillable murder machines themselves), it is more about ideas being followed to their logical conclusion and characters acting like real people would act. Aang the lv 10 monk picking himself up after being stepped on by a dragon and fighting like nothing happened is realistic, because that is just how things work in pathfinder. Joe the wizard manipulating the fabric of space and time to cast fireballs is realistic. On the other hand, hunger and thirst being a problem in the world with magic is rather unrealistic, at least for me. Toph the BBEG, level 15 wizard, known for her intellignece and cunning across the world being stomped by a lv 8 party because she made any of the mistakes that have fixes on the Evil Overlord list is rather unrealistic.

Have you watched "Hobbit"? Spoilers, there is a part where they reach the gate into the fortress that dragon took, and they can't find the keyhole. They search for, like, 5 minutes, give up, throw away the key and walk away. That? That's not realistic. Would you act like that? I sure wouldn't, not after spending so much time and effort getting there. I would spend the next hour checking every last place that might have a keyhole, then come back next day to check, and only then maybe leave.

Spoilers end.

If author wants something to be a thing in their universe without the ripple effects, they need to introduce a counteracting factor, e.g. inevitables. If you don't want traps of Create Food to be in every household, you need to have terrasques who are attracted to traps of Create Food, which are therefore banned from production. As a matter of fact making one is an offence punishable by death, as all other acts of terrorism on a mass scale.

If you want to have a character who can cast Wish as a SLA with no material components, they need to be an insecure teenager with suicidal tendencies, otherwise I, at least, would ask "Why hasn't this person conquered the world yet?"

Now, there is nothing wrong with being unrealistic. Good worldbuilding is hard work and not many people can pull it off. Most authors would be perfectly fine getting their world to the point where most of their audience can ignore the inconsistencies, and those who can't are more engaged by the story than disengaged by the fact that Harry Potter never buys a gun, so they ignore it too. A lot of authors would get more out of making their world more engaging rather than more realistic and logical per minute of work.

However, if there is an opportunity to improve the realism of a setting...why the hell would you pass it up?

But that's just my opinion.


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Well, most of it is a question that needs answering on a case by case basis. Though as far as wish is concerned, it's not what it once was. It's mostly good for replicating spells, which isn't really any more impressive than having a daily coupon for some spellcasting services at a metropolis (it can't replicate top level spells so every spell you can replicate can just be grabbed at a metropolis). Wish was nerfed really hard coming into Pathfinder (you can't wish for wealth directly, though you might use spell mimicry to perform some other slower forms of wealth production), you can't wish for magic items, and after you've got your inherent modifiers, there's not a whole lot left to do with it. Especially since wish efreeti SLA or something has a really low caster level and save DC (not super useful in combat after a while).

Eventually it kind of like in FF8, where you got that weird extradimensional merchant who you can buy items from and stuff while you're out of town. >_>


Ashiel!

I remember you liked these last time, but I've forgotten which ones I have or have not shared with you.

... so I'm sharing them again!

Animated music videos~!

Magic
Money
Ghost (i.e. "part one")
Freaking Out (i.e. "part two")

(It's not all of their songs, but these are all the "animated" music videos I can find - "Magic" is done by a different artist, and obviously is made of stills, but is really good nonetheless - and certainly better than anything I could do! XD)

EDIT: For prettiness in presentation, and clarifying to whom I was talking.


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So what happens now? Do we stick with the worlds/settings we know are borked from the beginning due to loyalty or try to create something new on the ashes of lessons learned?


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Freehold DM wrote:
So what happens now? Do we stick with the worlds/settings we know are borked from the beginning due to loyalty or try to create something new on the ashes of lessons learned?

I like to do a little of both!


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Tacticslion wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
So what happens now? Do we stick with the worlds/settings we know are borked from the beginning due to loyalty or try to create something new on the ashes of lessons learned?
I like to do a little of both!

Same for me. No reason to settle for one thing where you can get two. It's like choosing between Chocolate and Strawbery icecream, when nothing stops you from taking both.

Do you ever delegate any of your GMing responsibilities to your players? If yes, which ones and why? If no, why not?

EDIT: Also, what's your favourite icecream flavor?


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Freehold DM wrote:
So what happens now? Do we stick with the worlds/settings we know are borked from the beginning due to loyalty or try to create something new on the ashes of lessons learned?

I'm gonna agree with Tacticslion, that one doesn't preclude the other. For example, there's kind of a running gag that you can't spit in Faerun without hitting an archmage. A setting doesn't have to be 100% nailed down to be fun (I'd dare say that few are in fact).

That said, consistency is a virtue, and so while we're flexing our creative muscles, practicing to be better than what came before is a noble goal, worth doing even if we sometimes fail at it, because the effort to be better is never a wasted effort.


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Klara Meison wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
So what happens now? Do we stick with the worlds/settings we know are borked from the beginning due to loyalty or try to create something new on the ashes of lessons learned?
I like to do a little of both!
Do you ever delegate any of your GMing responsibilities to your players? If yes, which ones and why? If no, why not?

Not usually, but it depends on your definition of GMing responsibilities. According to...Ultimate Campaign I think, supposedly the GM is supposed to run things like animal companions and such, but I've never done anything beyond point out when characters need to use Handle Animal for some things but otherwise let players play their own minions.

Leadership is usually optional. My players tend to like my NPCs (yay!), but if they want total control (including RP) of their cohort that's fine too. That said, Leadership is frequently unnecessary since my players tend to end up collecting an entourage in a more organic fashion (by being heroes and making friends with similar goals).

Quote:
EDIT: Also, what's your favourite icecream flavor?

Strawberry and/or Vanilla.


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>it depends on your definition of GMing responsibilities.

I was referring to things like tracking initiative and when buffs \debuffs run out, along with some minor storytelling (e.g. player A goes to tailor and asks for a funny hat to be made, you tell players B and C to come up with the design, effectively giving them control over NPCs for this task)


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I sorta end up tracking stuff like that as a player anyways. Cus they're sorta relevant to me. Not so much the hat though.

I've a fever and am slightly delusional right now, so feel free to ignore me if I'm having a derp moment, but I came to the conclusion a bit ago that one thing that is unrealistic in the setting is... Ocean travel. Realistically, no sane person should ever go near the ocean, making all sailors unhinged, or insanely powerful.

Ashiel's pointed out how deadly water is as an environment before, so I hardly need to broach it again, but the sort of creatures who live in the ocean are terrifyingly deadly. And there's very little reason most can't just eat a hole through the bottom of your ship. Even a Sahuagin knows how to work an auger drill.

Even the biggest ships have very limited space on them as well. 30ft by 100ft is a lot smaller than you might think when you've got 1-6 huge creatures clambering on board. If they didn't just sink your ship anyways.

So I dunno. I think the only people who'd dare go near the water would be druids, cus everyone else just... Dies. It only works cus npcs don't get random encounters like pcs do.


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Icehawk wrote:

I sorta end up tracking stuff like that as a player anyways. Cus they're sorta relevant to me. Not so much the hat though.

I've a fever and am slightly delusional right now, so feel free to ignore me if I'm having a derp moment, but I came to the conclusion a bit ago that one thing that is unrealistic in the setting is... Ocean travel. Realistically, no sane person should ever go near the ocean, making all sailors unhinged, or insanely powerful.

Ashiel's pointed out how deadly water is as an environment before, so I hardly need to broach it again, but the sort of creatures who live in the ocean are terrifyingly deadly. And there's very little reason most can't just eat a hole through the bottom of your ship. Even a Sahuagin knows how to work an auger drill.

Even the biggest ships have very limited space on them as well. 30ft by 100ft is a lot smaller than you might think when you've got 1-6 huge creatures clambering on board. If they didn't just sink your ship anyways.

So I dunno. I think the only people who'd dare go near the water would be druids, cus everyone else just... Dies. It only works cus npcs don't get random encounters like pcs do.

Hydrokinetics would like to have a word with you.


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Icehawk wrote:

I sorta end up tracking stuff like that as a player anyways. Cus they're sorta relevant to me. Not so much the hat though.

I've a fever and am slightly delusional right now, so feel free to ignore me if I'm having a derp moment, but I came to the conclusion a bit ago that one thing that is unrealistic in the setting is... Ocean travel. Realistically, no sane person should ever go near the ocean, making all sailors unhinged, or insanely powerful.

Ashiel's pointed out how deadly water is as an environment before, so I hardly need to broach it again, but the sort of creatures who live in the ocean are terrifyingly deadly. And there's very little reason most can't just eat a hole through the bottom of your ship. Even a Sahuagin knows how to work an auger drill.

Even the biggest ships have very limited space on them as well. 30ft by 100ft is a lot smaller than you might think when you've got 1-6 huge creatures clambering on board. If they didn't just sink your ship anyways.

So I dunno. I think the only people who'd dare go near the water would be druids, cus everyone else just... Dies. It only works cus npcs don't get random encounters like pcs do.

I don't think it's that bad, actually. Suppose you were a sea creature. You could attack a defenceless ship and eat whomever is onboard...but then you know that the very next ship will be full of adventurers/hit wizards/teamworking druids on a quest to "secure the trade route" or "protect the ship against sea monsters", who will murder the everloving bejesus out of you. Alternatively, you can eat a weaker sea monster than yourself. What would you choose, a fight you will almost definitely win or one you would lose with a high probability? Exactly. Once in a while a critter or two would get cocky, but then they would be dispatched by adventurers before they would cause too much trouble.

It is quite similar to real life, really. A wolf/bear in a forest can almost definitely kill a single human passing by, but they are smart enough to not attack, for obvious reasons.

Have your players ever danced BBEG to death? For that matter, have you ever used Performance Combat rules? If yes, are they any good?


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I don't mean to toot my own horn, but, well, TOOT!
I just broke my previous personal best for my most favorited-by-others-post. And that's probably good, since my new personal-record-breaking post is way more deserving than my previous highest-favorited post.

It's still nowhere close to the big leagues of really high favorite-counts like 61 favorites on one post or 104 favorites for one of Jiggy's OPs.

Still, I don't think any of them quite match the awesomeness of one single sentence from one unappreciated post:

Ashiel wrote:
It's not about damage.

I think that one sentence perfectly encapsulates the lesson in all disparity/balance/rogue/whatever arguments on this website.


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Anyhow, since this is a question-asking thread, I thought I'd ask a question:
What browser do ya use for viewing the forums? I'd been using Firefox for a long time (more than 10 years), but I recently tried out Pale Moon and my initial impression has been good. Who knows, maybe I'll permanently make the switch, or maybe I'll change my mind and go back to FF. What do you use?


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Klara Meison wrote:
Have your players ever danced BBEG to death? For that matter, have you ever used Performance Combat rules? If yes, are they any good?

Nope, and nope. Though I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

137ben wrote:

Anyhow, since this is a question-asking thread, I thought I'd ask a question:

What browser do ya use for viewing the forums? I'd been using Firefox for a long time (more than 10 years), but I recently tried out Pale Moon and my initial impression has been good. Who knows, maybe I'll permanently make the switch, or maybe I'll change my mind and go back to FF. What do you use?

Firefox. I've used firefox for years now. Pretty much ever since I realized it was an alternative to internet explorer. Chrome didn't super impress me and so I'd only use it if IE was the other option (but in fairness Chrome was new at the time so maybe it's gotten better).

Not familiar with Pale Moon, so I'll have to look it up and give it a try. :)


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>I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

That sounds like an amusing story.


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Klara Meison wrote:

>I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

That sounds like an amusing story.

It's actually an awesome story! :D

Also, Klara, in if you prefer the ">" for stylized reasons, that's fine, but if you'd like to learn how to code text boxes (I'm uncertain of what you do and don't know - everyone is different), it's like this:

[ quote="hey, look, a quote box"] hey, look, it's in a quote box

If you remove the space from between the first square bracket [ and the word "quote" you get:

hey, look, a quote box wrote:
hey, look, it's in a quote box

Same basic technique applies to various other things you might want to do.

[ ooc]OOC TEXT[/ooc] -> OOC TEXT

[ b]BOLD[/b] -> BOLD

[ i]Italics[/i] -> Italics

[ bigger]BIGGER[/bigger] -> BIGGER

[ url=wikipediad.com]Wikipedia[/url] -> Wikipedia

[ dice=Profession (blabber)]d20+6[/dice] -> Profession (blabber): 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (20) + 6 = 26

[ spoiler=Don't look]Let me list:
[ list] [ *]first they... [ *]then they...[/list][/spoiler]

Don't look:
Let me list:
  • first they...
  • then they...

Anyway, you certainly don't need to do things that way, and, as a style, just relying on the ">" is fine. I just wanted to make sure you knew!
(I didn't know everything until someone showed me how, even though technically these are all listed right below the Submit Post button.)

EDIT: Several times to figure out the "List" function. Amusingly, simply putting "*" inside a bracket will automatically cause the rest of your post to "list" things - you can't actually end the "list" effect anymore, unless you then go back and put [ list] and [ /list] above and below (respectively) the asterisks in brackets. That's... funny. And interesting to know!

Also, the " ↓ " is a cheat on my part. I don't know how to make those, so I just copy/paste 'em from somewhere like here or from those that I've got saved in my profile page.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:

>I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

That sounds like an amusing story.

It's actually an awesome story! :D

Also, Klara, in if you prefer the ">" for stylized reasons, that's fine, but if you'd like to learn how to code text boxes (I'm uncertain of what you do and don't know - everyone is different), it's like this:

[ quote="hey, look, a quote box"] hey, look, it's in a quote box

If you remove the space from between the first square bracket [ and the word "quote" you get:

hey, look, a quote box wrote:
hey, look, it's in a quote box

Same basic technique applies to various other things you might want to do.

[ ooc]OOC TEXT[/ooc] -> OOC TEXT

[ b]BOLD[/b] -> BOLD

[ i]Italics[/i] -> Italics

[ bigger]BIGGER[/bigger] -> BIGGER

[ url=wikipediad.com]Wikipedia[/url] -> Wikipedia

[ dice=Profession (blabber)]d20+6 -> [dice=Profession (blabber)]d20+6

[ spoiler=Don't look]Let me list:
[ list] [ *]first they... [ *]then they...[/list][/spoiler]

** spoiler omitted **

Anyway, you certainly don't need to do things that way, and, as a style, just relying on the ">" is fine. I just wanted to make sure you knew!
(I didn't know everything until someone showed me how, even though technically these are all listed right below the Submit Post button.)

EDIT: Several times to figure out the "List" function. Amusingly, simply putting "*" inside a bracket will automatically cause the rest of your post to "list" things - you can't actually end the "list" effect anymore, unless you then go back and put [ list] and [ /list] above and below (respectively) the asterisks in brackets. That's... funny. And interesting to know!

Also, the " ↓ " is a cheat on my part. I don't know how to make...

I know how to use code, and have seen the format guidelines, but using a ">" instead of a proper quote box is about a million times faster, which is why I use it.


That's fine! I didn't know stuff before people told me (and different sites have different code), so I try not to presume what people know and tell them. If you prefer the other way, that's fine! (I find it really fast and easy by this point, though. It's all in what you're used to/comfortable with.)


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Tacticslion wrote:
That's fine! I didn't know stuff before people told me (and different sites have different code), so I try not to presume what people know and tell them. If you prefer the other way, that's fine! (I find it really fast and easy by this point, though. It's all in what you're used to/comfortable with.)

To be fair, some of us can't type a million words a minute Tacticslion, so that's a thing. :)


Granted. (I'm still working on perfecting that one. It would be... a useful skill.) :D


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Tacticslion wrote:
Granted. (I'm still working on perfecting that one. It would be... a useful skill.) :D

Thats not a jab, if that didnt come across in text. I admire your ability to materialise posts that would take me forever to type out.


Trogdar wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Granted. (I'm still working on perfecting that one. It would be... a useful skill.) :D
Thats not a jab, if that didnt come across in text. I admire your ability to materialise posts that would take me forever to type out.

Oh, no! No jab! I got it! And thanks!

(My longer posts can take quite some time, though - I'll often have a couple of tabs open or work on one as I do other stuff around the house, and I'll often work on one until my ADD kicks in and I'm forced (figuratively, via forgetfulness) to stand or switch to doing something else and come back to the first one. I'm a stay at home dad, so I can afford to do that while kids are playing. Of course sometimes I just forget what I'm doing and leave off entir


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tacticslion wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Granted. (I'm still working on perfecting that one. It would be... a useful skill.) :D
Thats not a jab, if that didnt come across in text. I admire your ability to materialise posts that would take me forever to type out.

Oh, no! No jab! I got it! And thanks!

(My longer posts can take quite some time, though - I'll often have a couple of tabs open or work on one as I do other stuff around the house, and I'll often work on one until my ADD kicks in and I'm forced (figuratively, via forgetfulness) to stand or switch to doing something else and come back to the first one. I'm a stay at home dad, so I can afford to do that while kids are playing. Of course sometimes I just forget what I'm doing and leave off entir

lol, the glamour of parenthood.


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Glamour. Yyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssss...
That's certainly what it is.
>.>


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Klara Meison wrote:

>I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

That sounds like an amusing story.

I was GMing for an online persistent world by request of a regular GM who couldn't make his usual game. He had intended for a one-shot which involved a magical tower that appeared in a city with a lich in it, and the party was supposed to deal with the problem.

The game was going to be run for a bunch of 13th level characters (I found later it was actually about 13 13th level characters), and he gave me some upper limits and to how strong I should make the encounter with the lich so that it "would last more than one round". His suggestion was that it be a 20th level lich, with PC WBL, who also had a set of artifacts only usable by the lich that granted stuff like +8 to their stats, mega-DR, super spell resistance, and a bunch of other stuff, which couldn't be collected and used by the PCs later.

About the PCs:
The limits, or lack thereof, of this persistent world were silly. More or less if it was printed by Wizards it was available, plus a few other house rule options that let you build characters that were just kinda dumb (like stacking lots of templates on them and such).

The party even included such ilk as a Planar Shepherd (essentially 3.5 druid++, as it was a prestige class that cost you nothing and let you wildshape into outsiders and get all of their special abilities and SLAs and such). Meanwhile, there was a character whose spell save DCs were in the upper 30s to low 40s at this level because reasons.

There was kind of this idea that if you weren't pushing the hilt, you weren't really going to play here. The reason I mention this, is because it's funny to see what happens later.

I thought this was pretty lame ('cause a 20th level lich is rightfully going to **** all over far worse, and the artifact thing seemed super dirty to me). So I said, "Okay, so nothing more powerful than this, right? Other than that, do as I will?" and he was like "Right. Good luck, you'll need it".

So having an upper limit to my GMing shenanigans, I tossed the idea of a 20th level lich decorated in artifact gear and PC wealth in the garbage. I formed up a 15th level lich wizard with NPC wealth, and gave her a pair of advanced Allips and came up with a general strategy and called that part a day.

The tower, which had more or less unspecified levels and also used the same repeating map for each level, I decorated with things like statues, art, tapestries, books, and so forth. I included things like shadows and minor undead servants and a few simple constructs working about in the tower, and finally I included a little magical communication system that let the lich and the party communicate back and forth through the tower.

I decided to have the lich's lair be in the bottom most level of the tower, and had the party enter the tower through the top via magical flight and/or airship or somesuch, through a hole that was made from a mini-siege.

What followed was the party rushing down the levels AFAP. The lich, continuously attempted to suggest that they try mutual diplomacy before trying to murder each other like common ruffians, to which the party of players more or less flipped her the bird. On the way down, they torched the lich's art collection and tapestries to try to make the lich angry (I wondered how pissed they were going to be when they found out they destroyed 90% of the treasure for the adventure, as they were taking turns torching the lich's study).

During this, the PC with the DC 40 spells got killed by a few shadows because apparently she never thought that being 13th level with a 10 AC was a bad thing and had never invested any resources into her defenses or off-scores, which meant that when three shadows burst into the area and fondled her, her 9 Strength went the way of the dodo and she followed suit. One of the PCs asked if they could use a limited wish scroll to stop her from becoming a shadow so they could go get her raised; I thought it a fair use of the "other stuff no stronger than these" clause and so she didn't turn into a shadow and instead got to just be a corpse. So one of the PCs fled the dungeon with her corpse to go get her some aid.

The party kind of roflestomped the servants in the tower (none were actually worth much in the way of XP since they were so far below their collective level), until they reached the lich's lair itself. In a grand summoning chamber / laboratory, she stood next to her pair of allips. What the PCs didn't readily realize was that the lich herself was a projected image while she was ethereal next to it, keeping it within LoS/E from her position.

What followed was an asswhupping of embarassing proportions. The party tried to nuke the world, but since the allips sunk into the floor, and the lich wasn't real, all that happened was dust and smoke. The allips then emerged from the floor and the party began having to make multiple saves vs the allips' muddering madness. While that was happening, they were treated to spells like black tentacles and cloudkill filling the room, causing issues with movement, vision, and life.

Several rounds into the fight, the party's planar shepherd thought they picked a fight that couldn't be won, so he planeshifted to celestia to flee. One of the party's sorceresses got petrified twice (someone used a break enchantment scroll, then she got nuked again).

Eventually the party dispatched the allips and used true seeing to realize the lich was fighting them in two forms (ethereal vs illusory) and tried to adapt, but had little recourse for fighting her since anyone who could turn ethereal would be fighting her 1 vs 1, so they ended up spamming magic missile a bit.

By this point, most of the 11 13th level characters that were fighting the lich had fled, coming down to only a Paladin-thingy-guy, the twice-stoned Sorceress, and a Cleric played by someone who would later be a good friend of mine. The Paladin, grabbed up the sorceress and exclaimed that they really needed to flee, because even if they could win this the costs would be too high (and he mostly meant how much he was going to vomit up to pay for the consumables). The cleric refused, with the player remarking that "This is the greatest battle I've ever been in, and if my character is going to die, I want it to be in this one".

So everyone else quit the lobby, save for the cleric player. What followed was the two in a struggle for several more rounds, each unleashing their arcane vs divine power, summoning monsters, conjuring, dispelling, blasting, healing, etc. Until both were nearly completely spent in terms of their daily resources. So as the lich and the cleric sat there, essentially panting, both bretty broken up, they decided to call a truce for a bit and have a dialog since the firebugs had left the building (the cleric wasn't particularly amused with all their art and book burning).

So what they ended up doing was going back to the lich's mostly torched study, both on guard in case the other tried any funny business, pulled up some slightly burnt chairs and dusted off a slightly ash covered chess set and played chess while talking over their differences. They discussed why the lich was there, what the lich's intentions were, how the city the lich popped up in viewed undead in general, the cleric's role in the city, her beliefs, philosophy, what they each thought was best for the world, etc.

So by the end of the chess game, the two decided they didn't really want to kill each other and the cleric agreed to talk to the city government on the lich's behalf, to discuss some sort of cooperation rather than conflict. So as a show of good faith, the lich gifted the cleric with an intelligent sword she had created which would note her an ally of the lich for any of the lich's minions and was a sort of honorific. The sword also had a few cool x/day abilities, like the ability to animate some undead without expending material components (the components had already been accounted for in the creation of the sword).

So, she simply walked out of the tower, armed with a new sword, and back into the city relatively unharmed. Imagine the surprise that the rest of the players had when they returned the following day to find the lich tower still their, the cleric still very much alive, and bearing the blade of the lich. She wouldn't tell them OOC what had happened, so they took turns on speculating if the player's Cleric somehow managed to kill the lich on her own, or if she was being controlled somehow, or if she had defected to the lich's forces.


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Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:

>I have had a player who stopped mid-combat to resolve her differences with the lich she was fighting over a game of chess.

That sounds like an amusing story.

I was GMing for an online persistent world by request of a regular GM who couldn't make his usual game. He had intended for a one-shot which involved a magical tower that appeared in a city with a lich in it, and the party was supposed to deal with the problem.

The game was going to be run for a bunch of 13th level characters (I found later it was actually about 13 13th level characters), and he gave me some upper limits and to how strong I should make the encounter with the lich so that it "would last more than one round". His suggestion was that it be a 20th level lich, with PC WBL, who also had a set of artifacts only usable by the lich that granted stuff like +8 to their stats, mega-DR, super spell resistance, and a bunch of other stuff, which couldn't be collected and used by the PCs later.

** spoiler omitted **

I thought this was pretty lame ('cause a 20th level lich is rightfully going to **** all over far worse, and the artifact thing seemed super dirty to me). So I said, "Okay, so nothing more powerful...

That...is hillarious.

Especially considering that a lv 20 lich is CR 20, or 300k-something worth of xp budget, while 13 lv 13 PCs are 320k-ish, so the last fight should have been rather easy as far as the math is concerned.

Truly there is no counter for good strategy.

Sidenote:who the hell doesn't parley when an enemy wants to parley? You'd think getting the enemy to come into your room would be a desirable thing no matter what you are going to do. You can always nuke them later.

EDIT:actually, not sure on the lich thing. Being a lich probably increases the CR, but I can't look it up right now.


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Well lich is officially a +2 CR, so the lich was effectively a CR 16 creature (base CR 14 for a 15th level NPC w/NPC wealth), the allips were around CR 8 each. The effective XP budget for an epic encounter for a party of 13 13th level PCs would have been about 249,600 XP (or just a bit between CR 19 and 20). I lowballed it pretty hard.


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Relating to this awesome story, what are some of your favourite critters to use in encounter design?


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Klara Meison wrote:
Relating to this awesome story, what are some of your favourite critters to use in encounter design?

Gonna skip kobolds 'cause I think most everyone knows that by now.

Creatures I commonly enjoy using include...

  • Animated objects (I use them in the place of golems frequently)
  • Goblinoids (goblins & hobgoblins mostly)
  • Spiders (giant and swarms), especially in forests
  • Traditional undead (mindless, ghouls, mummies, liches)
  • Incorporeal undead (shadows mostly, sometimes allips and stuff)
  • Minor giants (ogres, hill giants, ettins)
  • Lycanthropes (mostly werewolves and wererats, but I <3 tigers too)
  • Humanoids based on environment (mostly humans, drow or dwarfs underground)
  • Animals & giant vermin (such as wolves, gators, sharks, centipedes, etc)
  • Outsiders of almost all kinds kinds (celestials, fiends, djinn, elementals, oni, rakshasa, etc) except inevitables (because while I think individual inevitables are cool, I think their lore is ass on head stupid so when I do use them, they are heavily modified outside of their mechanics)
  • An assortment of magical beasts (ankhegs, chimeras, basilisks)
  • Wyverns (because wyverns)

I generally stick with Bestiary I, enjoy adding class levels or advancing things in creature HD, and sometimes refluff things as desirable (very handy when dealing with animals and vermin). I often prefer mixed creature type encounters because they're often more interesting.

For example, including trained animals like dogs & wolves being used in enconters with humanoids. Exotic creatures as allies also count. For example, in a recent tabletop game, the party invaded a pirate cove with lots of low level pirate warriors (1 HD warriors) an low-mid wizard (around 6th level), and a wyvern. The wyvern didn't care much for the pirate mooks but considered the wizard his superior, and the pirates were minions of the wizard.

In another encounter, the party was exploring an old pyramid, and I had a few psychic warrior mummies roaming about. They were fluffed as guardians who took on aspects of their gods, so they would use powers like bite of the wolf to get bite attacks as their heads became animal-like, appearing like jackals, falcons, etc.

Toss in some traps and/or colorful environments, mix to taste.


Ashiel wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
Relating to this awesome story, what are some of your favourite critters to use in encounter design?

Gonna skip kobolds 'cause I think most everyone knows that by now.

Creatures I commonly enjoy using include...

  • Animated objects (I use them in the place of golems frequently)
  • Goblinoids (goblins & hobgoblins mostly)
  • Spiders (giant and swarms), especially in forests
  • Traditional undead (mindless, ghouls, mummies, liches)
  • Incorporeal undead (shadows mostly, sometimes allips and stuff)
  • Minor giants (ogres, hill giants, ettins)
  • Lycanthropes (mostly werewolves and wererats, but I <3 tigers too)
  • Humanoids based on environment (mostly humans, drow or dwarfs underground)
  • Animals & giant vermin (such as wolves, gators, sharks, centipedes, etc)
  • Outsiders of almost all kinds kinds (celestials, fiends, djinn, elementals, oni, rakshasa, etc) except inevitables (because while I think individual inevitables are cool, I think their lore is ass on head stupid so when I do use them, they are heavily modified outside of their mechanics)
  • An assortment of magical beasts (ankhegs, chimeras, basilisks)
  • Wyverns (because wyverns)

I generally stick with Bestiary I, enjoy adding class levels or advancing things in creature HD, and sometimes refluff things as desirable (very handy when dealing with animals and vermin). I often prefer mixed creature type encounters because they're often more interesting.

For example, including trained animals like dogs & wolves being used in enconters with humanoids. Exotic creatures as allies also count. For example, in a recent tabletop game, the party invaded a pirate cove with lots of low level pirate warriors (1 HD warriors) an low-mid wizard (around 6th level), and a wyvern. The wyvern didn't care much for the pirate mooks but considered the wizard his superior, and the pirates were minions of the wizard.

In another encounter, the party was exploring an old pyramid, and I had a...

On the opposite side of the spectrum, which critters do you dislike?

>except inevitables (because while I think individual inevitables are cool, I think their lore is ass on head stupid so when I do use them, they are heavily modified outside of their mechanics)

What's so bad about their lore? I don't know much, but I believe they were just a crutch to stop Golarion from collapsing into a tippyverse?


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Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Another thing I'd like to bring up is you might consider your final encounter to actually be made of several encounters. Because of spells like clone or even astral projection, it's possible to encounter high end super bosses over multiple "phases" of the fight. It's actually not only possible for high-end bosses to be slain multiple times during the same encounter but it's downright practical for some of them.

When dealing with the queen of Cheliax, she may have some very impressive contingencies to her sudden demise. Perhaps after her former namesake, Abrogail the first was slain, she may have taken precautions. Maybe she's even signed an infernal contract so that when her soul reaches hell she is instantly made into a great devil as part of her dealings.

Without even getting too far flung, said sorceress could literally be slain 4 times without it getting too weird. For example, if she initially fought the party via astral projection she would have a copy of herself and her gear that she could plane shift back to the material plane while her body is in stasis. She then fights the party and gets defeated in phase #1. Redoubling her efforts, she then fights them for realsies, only to get slain in phase #2. She wakes up from her clone immediately when slain to teleport in an begin phase #3. When she is slain then, she finally returns to exact her revenge as a powerful evil outsider of immense power for phase #4.

Naturally additional minions and allies could add into each phase, such as her in final devil form swarming the city with devils through a gate spell or something, or otherwise doing all kinds of stuff worthy of Ghostbusters. You could really go nuts with it. :D

Just to spice things up a little, there's always using astral projection then casting magic jar into the body of a mammoth (for the low, low price of 15,000 gp, get youself a mammoth today!), then using alter self to appear humanoid. Fight as a mammoth, fight as a projection, fight as herself, fight as her clone, then fight her as a Devil.

So, the overall BBEG for the campaign I'm using the skill casting system in is a Mystic Theurge, and I think I'm going to have him use this for his encounter. I think this fight, even without stuff like this, is going to be super difficult in the new system. If they don't kill him in a single round, he can always retreat, use heal, and then come back to the fight.

With this setup, he could userighteous might to override alter self and turn into gargantuan mammoth, then, while buffed with other spells, fight in melee and spell combat. I might keep a herd of mammoths around for shits and giggles and watch them get nervous as each mammoth is a potential host. Then fight the astral form, then the real body, then the clone, finally, the demonized version. Should be fun!


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>Then fight the astral form, then the real body, then the clone, finally, the demonized version.

I wonder if it is possible to turn an outsider into a mummy. If it is, then she can cast a second contingency after being turned into a demon, and tie Create Undead to it for one more "form".

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