| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Adding my submission for 'what do you think about...'
I'm playing Gregor Romanov, an Aasimar Gestalt Investigator (Steel Hound)/Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) character for Kingmaker.
** spoiler omitted **...I'll check it out in the morning. Gotta be at work at 9 am so it's bedtime. :o
Well, let me start with an apology.
I hate Pathfinder firearms and everything associated with them. As a result, it's taken me some time to dig up some stuff that might help (because I normally avoid anything involving PF firearms like the plague). So there's a pretty good chance that any advice I give will be less useful than someone who's an expert on PF firearms. :P
1. For the free deed at 2nd level, I'd probably go with Gunslinger Dodge since it lets you milk some extra movement and AC vs attacks and you probably don't have a lot to spend immediate actions on. Unfortunately if you intend to actually use your gun, you're pretty much forced to take Quick Clear instead.
Deadeye is iffy. It applies a -2 penalty for each range increment you're shooting, which is in addition to the -2 penalty you already get, meaning it's a -4 for each range increment. This means that it's only a good idea to use it if your target's touch AC is at least 5 points worse than their usual AC, plus 4 additional points for each range increment beyond the first.
In other words, if your range increment is 20 ft. (pistol) and you need to shoot an enemy that's 21+ ft. away, you're taking a -4 to hit them in exchange for targeting their touch AC. Thus if your opponent's touch AC isn't 5 points lower than their actual AC, you aren't getting any benefit in your chances of hitting them (if it's 4 or less you're just wasting grit). For every 20 ft. the difference needs to be even higher to get any benefit out of it at all. Generally speaking it'll only be a good idea against big dragons or something. Even then, you'll absolutely need Quick Clear if you even want to use your gun. Because guns suck.
2. Since Steel Hound never actually lets you take any deeds beyond the 1st level gunslinger deeds, there's virtually no reason to ever bother taking Extra Grit as you'll never have anything worthwhile to spend it on regularly so your 3 grit per day is probably plenty. Especially if you actually plan to use your gun and take Quick Clear (in which case you'll only rarely spend grit).
If you opt for something other than Quick Clear (such as gunslinger dodge), you could drop the gun entirely (trading it for the 4d10 gold) and instead pick up Rapid Reload (light crossbow) which would be patently superior than Extra Grit and using firearms since you'd be able to full-attack with a light crossbow, use it in a single hand, and it's not going to explode in your hand or randomly break down, plus your odds of finding magical weaponry or ammunition just tripled at least.
3. Oddly, I'm going to recommend Combat Expertise and here's why. You're not going to be getting Power Attack because of your low Strength score and probably picking up Precise Strike at 3rd level which gives you +level damage as long as you have a point remaining in your pool. Because of this, your damage will be very solid even without Power Attack (it will actually outpace power attack by quite a bit). Because of this and the fact you get an additional +X (1-4) to hit and damage from your Weapon Training feature means you will surely be able to keep up in the to-hit department. Especially if gloves of dueling apply (bringing you up an additional +2 to hit and damage).
Combat expertise will allow you to get a scaling dodge bonus to your AC in exchange for some of your to-hit, and combined with magic light armor, a magic buckler, and your Nimble bonus, you can be an amazing avoidance tank. For example:
10 base
+11 Mithral Celestial Armor
+10 Dexterity
+6 shield
+5 nimble (dodge)
+6 combat expertise (dodge)
+5 deflection
+5 natural
+1 insight
= AC 59, 33 touch
You can push it well above 60 if you really wanted to, especially if you use swashbuckler tricks. Pushing it higher is really only a valid defense against top-tier martial characters who are burning their cooldowns to hit you though as you'll be evade-capped vs the vast majority of enemies you'd ever fight.
Essentially when you're hitting enemies just fine, Combat Expertise will give you some additional evade-% and as an added bonus it applies to your CMD, which makes it difficult for monsters to land grabs and such.
4. Consider picking up Deadly Aim since you meet the Dex prerequisite. While precise strike will keep your melee damage deadly, you'll need Deadly Aim to push your damage with your gun or light crossbow.
5. Shield Focus (buckler) and Missile Shield are good defensive feats that don't interfere with precise strike and continue to make you difficult to kill. Missile Shield allows you to deflect an incoming ranged attack as per Deflect Arrows with your buckler.
6. Since you get some bonus combat feats and count as a Fighter, grabbing feats like Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Step-Up, Following Step, and Pin Down could make it a nightmare to keep you off of opponents. You basically use your massive AC to get on top of people and then start punishing them when they try to get out of your full-attack range.
7. If you pick up Combat Expertise and go with the lockdown path mentioned in #6, grabbing Improved and Quick Dirty trick shouldn't be very hard at all. Since any bonuses to hit that you get with your rapier apply to dirty tricks you preform with your rapier your CMB can actually get very high (BAB + Dex + Weapon Training + Enhancement Bonus + 4 from feats, etc) which means that you can make your lock down game all the more horrific as your AoOs are now Dirty Tricks that blind, entangle, or rob your foes of their actions.
8. On the investigator side of things, the Domino Effect discovery is really good for quickly passing the ball in fights with lots of enemies and I'd strongly recommend it. It can save you a lot of actions when you can just keep refreshing Studied Combat onto a new enemy.
9. The extracts Long Arm and Reduce Person are both really useful for your character. Your melee reach could be very surprising to some, especially if you ever pick up the Lunge feat.
10. At low levels, you can make extracts of shield. This will make your AC skyrocket during encounters before your dodgy abilities have bloomed. Likewise, the Ironskin extract is really powerful, functioning as a 1 min/level super barkskin that you can dismiss to negate a critical hit.
11. Your extracts are really good and will provide opportunities for a lot of really good buffs without putting a resource drain on your party. Extracts like heroism which last a long time are great.
12. Extend Potion and Eternal Potion are great discoveries to consider for your investigator. Especially when dealing with potions you buy at high caster levels. Eternal Potion doesn't come online until 16th level but it's very powerful as you can get permanent haste or displacement which are very potent. The displacement also allows you to use Stealth at will.
Other great options include permanent thorn body which is a DR ignoring, SR ignoring, energy resistance ignoring fire shield that inflicts 1d6+15 points of damage to anything that strikes you in melee or grapples you. It's exceedingly punishing to enemies that rely on whacking you with lots of natural attacks as they actually kill themselves by hitting you.
If you want to be really cute, eternal burst of speed means you never provoke attacks for moving again and automatically get to move through enemy spaces if they are larger than you (which is almost everything if you have Reduce Person active).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*prod prod* Just making sure you got my pm.
Wait, it's an ask thread.... *Puts on yellow safari hat*
Hey... Did'ja get that thing I sent ya?
Yeah, but I didn't flip the switch yet for...reasons. >_>
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Would I be punishing my players too much if I started them on the elite array and encouraged them toward simpler class progressions? (i.e., encouraging spellcasters to remain single-classed, trying to avoid that ubiquitous barbarian dip, etc.)
No, but honestly encouraging little multiclassing in 3.5 is basically shooting the biggest strength of the system in the foot. It also devalues certain racial benefits. Finally, there is precious little to gain by sticking with a single class unless you're a spellcaster so the barbarian dip thing only hurts martials since the strongest classes aren't going to want to multiclass anyway (sans prestige classes).
What point buy would you reccomend if I wanted to pit my PC's against NPCs of around that power level?
Standard point buy is balanced around the elite array and it's what the elite array is based on. I'm partial to Pathfinder's 15 PB, mostly because I like it better than the 3.x point buy, but it's equivalent to the standard there.
Bonus question: If you were to dust off 3.5, what houserules would you run it with?
I'm currently thinking of granting cross-class skill ranks on a one-for-one basis to band-aid the horrible punishment that the 3.5 skill system inflicts, restricting access to non-core spell lists/manuevers (the latter only through the Martial Study feat, which I may have to tune up a little) and granting access to important alternate class levels such as the dungeoncrusher fighter and penetrating strike rogue.
I'd definitely get rid of the cross-class buy penalty. Even if you decide to keep the cap at 1/2 your class skill ranks, requiring a 2:1 rank buy along with the cap is just overkill.
Most of my current house rules work fine in 3.5 as well.
Starting HP Values
Characters begin with HD x 1.5 HP. It's based on the highest HD that you have ever, so if you begin as a d8 class and later multiclass into a d12 class you retroactively get the difference. So the starting HP for classes is as follows:
d4 = 6 HP
d6 = 9 HP
d8 = 12 HP
d10 = 15 HP
d12 = 18 HP
Apply Con modifiers as appropriate. It makes 1st level less rocket-taggy but doesn't affect later levels very much (it's only a +2 to +6 Hp difference overall).
Alignment Revisions
Because of running a persistent world a while back, I ran into some issues with players and their alignments and their arguing amongst themselves about alignment. During that time, I revised the alignment mechanics to resolve some conflicts and found I really like it.
1. All creatures are treated as Neutral for all mechanics unless you have an aligned subtype.
2. The Aura class feature (Clerics, Paladins, etc) now grants the associated alignment subtype. Which means Paladins have the [Good] subtype, while an Evil cleric has the [Evil] subtype. It represents their greater connection to the primeval forces of Chaos, Law, Good, and Evil respectively.
3. Effects that target specific alignments also affect Neutral creatures but are 1/2 as powerful. For example, a Holy weapon deals +2d6 vs Evil, +1d6 vs Neutral, +0d6 vs Good. Likewise, a Paladin can smite everything but only gets +1/2 level to damage vs non-evil foes and +0 vs Good foes. Protection from spells are buffed slightly as they give a +2 bonus vs Neutral and a +4 bonus vs their opposed alignment. This keeps them as useful as they are in normal games and also keeps them more relevant against their now much rarer foe. It also guards vs mind control from Neutral foes.
I'm uncertain what to do about dead-levels (short of playing Pathfinder)
Homebrewing some alternates might help. I homebrewed a draconic bloodline for my brother's sorcerer way before Pathfinder was a thing. It gave him some scaling dragon-things as he rose in level at key points. Homebrewing some cool features or throwing in some bonus feat groups for certain classes could help fill in the gaps.
and have enough morbid curiosity to leave polymorph and wildshape as they are (with the caveat of restricting players to a few thematically appropriate transformations).
Honestly, I don't really mind 3.5 polymorphing. It never caused a problem in our groups. In most cases it was just cool. It generally seemed like it only became a problem when certain monsters were cherry picked from splatbooks. The "one true form" kind of thing. I think Pathfinder's polymorphing is better overall since it doesn't require you to have a statblock for everything you would want to turn into.
For example, Pathfinder has no stats for a medium sized bear (like a black bear) or a small bear (like a bear cub). However you can just assume the appropriate size, get some pre-specified modifiers, and apply the correct natural attacks based on size and voila, medium or small bear, no prior statblock required.
Honestly though, if you're sticking to the 3.5 MM I only, it's probably not going to be a problem.
My only experience with psionics is frustration at some rather excellent feats for martials being published in the XPH and not elsewhere, and thus off limits or just unknown a lot of the time. (Namely Stand-Still and Greater Manyshot).
3.5 Psionics was God's gift to d20. This is a fact. It is more real than gravity.
Awesome stuff!
This is beyond great advice, and thank you.
A couple points:
1)Later he can trade out investigator talents for gunslinger deeds
I was going to pick up a couple. I think he qualifies for them as a gunslinger of -x level, not sure what x is atm.
2)Story wise he plans to invent a revolver and cartridges (alchemy skill + gunsmithing should do the trick) so, it's all build up towards that on the gun front.
3)I don't plan on having him use his gun a whole lot, other than to open or close a fight, or if a ranged weapon is necessary to hinder a retreating foe.
EDIT:
Also, the GM is using the static numerical bonuses from Unchained. He didn't want us getting bogged down in crafting/managing magic items on top of the managing kingmaker requires the party to do.
I made a class Ashiel!!! It is TOTALLY a rip off of the Wizardry games "Bishop" class :) I can't get my spell tables to load on here correctly though so this is the lame outline that isn't super helpful until you see how FEW spells/day you know/can cast (but this IS a 9th level caster)
---
Bishop:
“There comes a time when the Gods stand back and allow mankind to choose their own destiny. I am good with that.” –Bishop Annabelle
The Bishop is similar to a cleric in that their faith fuels much of what they can achieve, however, the forceful personalities and ability to lead others breaches beyond a typical faith and expands the Bishop’s understanding of the nature of man, his environment, and magic.
Alignment Requirement: No neutral alignments for the character. The training of the Bishop requires a deep well of personal passion; such people are only found within the extremes of alignment: LG, CG, LE and CE.
Skills (2+INT): Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Bishops are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Bishops are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.
Special Abilities:
BAB: ¾, Good WILL save.
Level / Class Ability:
1 Divine the Artifice- at will a Bishop can spend a minute to determine the properties of a magic item in their possession. This effect is similar to the “Identify” spell but grants a bonus to the Spellcraft check equal to the Bishop’s level. Such a process is risky as the Bishop exposes themselves to conflicting energies; should a Bishop fail to identify the magic item they are afflicted with the “Shaken” status until they rest for eight hours. A Bishop shaken in this way cannot attempt to “Divine the Artifice” of any other items until after they have recovered.
Turn Undead (1+WIS/day)- a Bishop can channel divine energy similar to a cleric but only in an attempt cause undead to flee.
Orisons- a Bishop obtains Orisons in the same manner as a cleric.
Spellcasting- Bishops use their WIS to determine the DC for their Cleric spells and their CHA to determine the DC for their Sorc/Wiz spells. The Bishop receives bonus spells per day based on their WIS score, these spells can be prepared as Cleric spells or left open to fuel their Sorc/Wiz spells.
On levels which depict a (0+-) or (1+0) the Bishop only receives spell slots if they have a bonus spell slot of that level.
2 Scribe Scroll
3 Bonus Feat: choose between- Weapon Focus, any metamagic or Expanded Knowledge
4 Spontaneous Focus: Bishop can choose to sacrifice prepared Cleric spells for spells with Cure in the title (if he is of good alignment) or Inflict in the title (if he is of evil alignment). Neutral Bishops can select either Cure or Inflict as their spontaneous focus- once selected this cannot be changed.
5 Appeal of the Faithful- a Bishop treats their WIS score as being 2, or their CHA modifier (whichever is lower), higher than it is for the purpose of determining spells per day.
6 -
7 Cleanse the Unholy- undead that fail their save by 5 or more take 1d6/ 2 level of Bishop in addition to fleeing.
8 Bonus Feat: choose between- Weapon Focus, any item creation, any metamagic or Expanded Knowledge
9 -
10 Perfect Diviner- a Bishop does not risk being “Shaken” when using his “Divine the Artifice” ability unless the item in question is cursed.
11 Allure of the Faithful: a Bishop treats their WIS score as being 4, or their CHA modifier (whichever is lower), higher than it is for the purpose of determining bonus spells per day.
12 -
13 Bonus Feat: choose between- Weapon Focus, any item creation, any metamagic or Expanded Knowledge
14 -
15 Purge the Unholy- Undead that fail their save by 5 or more take damage equal to 1d6/Bishop level in addition to fleeing.
16 -
17 Ascension of the Faithful: a Bishop adds their CHA modifier to their WIS score (in addition to Allure of the Faithfuls +4 bonus) in order to determine bonus spells per day.
18 -
19 -
20 Capstone- Obliterate the Unholy- Undead that fail their save by 5 or more are destroyed, those that fail take 1d6/Bishop level in damage in addition to fleeing and those who save still take 1d6/2 Bishop levels in damage (though they are not forced to flee).
You could host the document on Google Docs or Mediafire or some place and link it here. That way people could see all of your formatting, and you'd be able to make updates more easily. :)
Too many dead levels. C'mon, you can do this!
I made a class Ashiel!!!
Sweet! ^.^
1 Divine the Artifice- at will a Bishop can spend a minute to determine the properties of a magic item in their possession. This effect is similar to the “Identify” spell but grants a bonus to the Spellcraft check equal to the Bishop’s level. Such a process is risky as the Bishop exposes themselves to conflicting energies; should a Bishop fail to identify the magic item they are afflicted with the “Shaken” status until they rest for eight hours. A Bishop shaken in this way cannot attempt to “Divine the Artifice” of any other items until after they have recovered.
This ability seems kind of weak. You can already attempt to ID items with detect magic plus a Spellcraft check and the DC is usually pretty low. Since identify doesn't have a costly component or require a long time to cast anymore, the Shaken condition for so long on a failure seems kinda rough, especially since the 1st level spell is pretty much just better than this feature until you hit 10th level. Shaken is -2 to attacks, saves, checks, and opens up you to being frightened if something else shakens you. Another thing to consider is that if your player tries to ID an item and becomes shaken for 8 hours, and then attempts to ID a second item and fails that one (possibly because of the -2), they're frightened for 8 hours. That's kinda...awkward. :P
Turn Undead (1+WIS/day)- a Bishop can channel divine energy similar to a cleric but only in an attempt cause undead to flee.
Do evil bishops only turn undead too?
Spellcasting- Bishops use their WIS to determine the DC for their Cleric spells and their CHA to determine the DC for their Sorc/Wiz spells. The Bishop receives bonus spells per day based on their WIS score, these spells can be prepared as Cleric spells or left open to fuel their Sorc/Wiz spells.
...
5 Appeal of the Faithful- a Bishop treats their WIS score as being 2, or their CHA modifier (whichever is lower), higher than it is for the purpose of determining spells per day.
Is it intentional that Wisdom focused characters receive no benefit from this ability until they reach 17th level and get Ascension of the Faithful? Since it only determines bonus spells, maybe just make it a flat +2 and then later +4? It takes a lot of an ability score to get extra bonus spells as it is. +2 or +4 may not even make much of a difference (it takes a 36+ stat to get +1 9th level spell).
7 Cleanse the Unholy- undead that fail their save by 5 or more take 1d6/ 2 level of Bishop in addition to fleeing.
Similar question to the turn undead one but is this for evil bishops as well?
10 Perfect Diviner- a Bishop does not risk being “Shaken” when using his “Divine the Artifice” ability unless the item in question is cursed.
Have you considered maybe something like legend lore or contact other plane or similar divining instead? At this level you'd probably never fail to ID a magic item anyway.
Looks like a pretty interesting class. I look forward to seeing where you take it. :)
The dead levels are when new spell levels become available. So basically everywhere you see a - means access to a new spell level (some of the lower levels got that in addition to another).
Divine the Artifice- is really there because that's how the Bishop worked in Wizardry and occasionally they would get all scared when they identified an item. It IS worse than a level 1 spell BUT it doesn't cost the casting of a level 1 spell... I suppose Detect Magic makes more sense... Hmmm... I want to keep the flavor, but it is a silly thing to happen I suppose.
Evil Bishops would also ONLY turn undead... again that is based on the Wizardry series... but I see how that would be weird...
I had originally thought about having the apex of that ability be adding your Charisma score to your Wisdom score to determine bonus spells... Maybe do a 4/8/Charisma addition? The idea was that a strong Charisma would fuel MORE magical power (and again... this class taps out at like a 2/2 (cleric/sorcerer) for each spell level (with higher level spells being even lower).
I ran into some issues in that Priests/Bishops in Wizardry "Dispel" undead... meaning that they just wave their god fingers and zombies crumble into experience points... That seemed overkill so I sorta combined Turn Undead (which btw used STRANGE language... Flee is unfamiliar as opposed to Panicked or Frightened- but I guess it circumvents the whole 'Fear Immunity' thing.) with the damage of Channel energy (since they can't use it to heal and it only works on Undead I was like- Yeah... this is ok)
AH! Table... So spells per level. Where you see a 0+ or a 1+0 you only get a spell of that type if you are using bonus spells. The first number is Cleric spells, 2nd number is Sorcerer (I took some inspiration from the 3rdPP Theurge class, but I didn't wanna step on toes too much so the progression is delayed).
SL1 SL2 SL3 SL4 SL5 SL6 SL7 SL8 SL9
1+0 - - - - - - - -
1+1 - - - - - - - -
2+1 0+- - - - - - - -
2+2 1+0 - - - - - - -
2+2 1+1 - - - - - - -
2+2 2+1 0+- - - - - - -
2+2 2+2 1+0 - - - - - -
2+2 2+2 1+1 - - - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+1 0+- - - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 1+0 - - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 1+1 - - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+1 1+0 - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 1+1 - - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+1 1+0 - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 1+1 - - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+1 1+0 - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 1+1 - -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+1 1+0 -
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 1+1 1+0
2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+2 2+1 1+1
Sorcerer Spells Known- where there is a ? you learn a spell but you may only understand it in theory since you might not be able to CAST spells there.
SL1 SL2 SL3 SL4 SL5 SL6 SL7 SL8 SL9
1 - - - - - - - -
1 - - - - - - - -
1 1? - - - - - - -
1 1 - - - - - - -
2 1 - - - - - - -
2 1 1? - - - - - -
2 2 1 - - - - - -
2 2 1 - - - - - -
3 2 1 1? - - - - -
3 2 2 1 - - - - -
3 3 2 1 - - - - -
3 3 2 1 1 - - - -
4 3 2 2 1 - - - -
4 3 3 2 1 1 - - -
4 4 3 2 1 1 - - -
4 4 3 2 2 1 1 - -
4 4 3 3 2 2 1 - -
4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 -
4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2
Wow... and that looked SO perfect in the text box... Ummm... YOU GET THE IDEA... Lol
At Vinnies need ideas for sci fy fantasy paperbacks to get, I know nothing past Forgotten Realms, LotR, krynn and Stephen king
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Sword of Truth series starts off strong...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Authors are big help, will look for those, lots of Him Butcher...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Terry Goodkind... if you want some lighthearted frivolity Terry Pratchett and the Discworld series are ADORABLE!
These aren't really fantasy books but I have ALWAYS loved Christopher Moore and his books are usually a Sci Fi comedy- Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove or Island of the Sequin Love Nun are hijinks galore. With the best one being Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff.
Again- those lack the "fantasy" element, but you also included Stephen King who I wouldn't say is a fantasy writer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Authors are big help, will look for those, lots of Him Butcher...
Yes Yes Yes Yes YES to Jim Butcher. Both his medieval fantasy Codex Alera and his modern fantasy Dresden Files are amazing and awesome.
And he has a steampunk series, Cinder Spires, coming out this fall.
I made a class Ashiel!!! It is TOTALLY a rip off of the Wizardry games "Bishop" class :) I can't get my spell tables to load on here correctly though so this is the lame outline that isn't super helpful until you see how FEW spells/day you know/can cast (but this IS a 9th level caster)
---
Bishop:
“There comes a time when the Gods stand back and allow mankind to choose their own destiny. I am good with that.” –Bishop AnnabelleThe Bishop is similar to a cleric in that their faith fuels much of what they can achieve, however, the forceful personalities and ability to lead others breaches beyond a typical faith and expands the Bishop’s understanding of the nature of man, his environment, and magic.
Alignment Requirement: No neutral alignments for the character. The training of the Bishop requires a deep well of personal passion; such people are only found within the extremes of alignment: LG, CG, LE and CE.
Skills (2+INT): Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Bishops are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Bishops are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.
Special Abilities:BAB: ¾, Good WILL save.
Level / Class Ability:
1 Divine the Artifice- at will a Bishop can spend a minute to determine the properties of a magic item in their possession. This effect is similar to the “Identify” spell but grants a bonus to the Spellcraft check equal to the Bishop’s level. Such a process is risky as the Bishop exposes themselves to conflicting energies; should a Bishop fail to identify the magic item they are afflicted with the “Shaken” status until they rest for eight hours. A Bishop shaken in this way cannot attempt to “Divine the Artifice” of any other items until after they have recovered.
Turn Undead (1+WIS/day)- a Bishop can channel divine...
You ever consider that what you actually wanted to build was a prestige class? 20 level base classes are supposed to be useful in a wide range of scenarios and the Bishop is hyper focused on combating undead and undead only. None of it's abilities seems all the useful unless he's combating undead, and even then, for the most part, he only makes them flee from him, instead of destroying them.
Spellcasting is useful, to be certain, but he gets so few clerical spells and hardly any sorceror spells to make either the focus of the class. When I look at what you're building towards, it seems to me that it would best work more as an archetype for the Mystic Theurge, than a full base class on it's own.
You aren't wrong. It is a conversion from Wizardry and meant to straddle that Priest/Mage role. So I wanted to created a base class that was capable of doing that from level 1.
No, but honestly encouraging little multiclassing in 3.5 is basically shooting the biggest strength of the system in the foot.
Duly noted.
Standard point buy is balanced around the elite array and it's what the elite array is based on. I'm partial to Pathfinder's 15 PB, mostly because I like it better than the 3.x point buy, but it's equivalent to the standard there.
I'm worried without Pathfinder's liberal +2 to ability scores such a low point buy will further punish my non-caster PC's. Or encourage my caster PC's to liberally prepare buff spells, which isn't necessarily bad news. I tend to stick to the elite array in PF and have had no complaints about the power level, I'm just worried that players starting on a 15 might have cause for complaint.
Thanks for the feedback!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
AH! Table... So spells per level. Where you see a 0+ or a 1+0 you only get a spell of that type if you are using bonus spells. The first number is Cleric spells, 2nd number is Sorcerer (I took some inspiration from the 3rdPP Theurge class, but I didn't wanna step on toes too much so the progression is delayed).
If their spells known list is limited enough it doesn't matter if their progression is delayed or not. From the looks of it, it definitely seems to be really tight so I don't think they really need to be delayed at all (their known spells is really, really tiny).
Perhaps give them a slightly larger number of known spells but make them choose between the cleric/sorcerer spells for it, so they don't know 100% of all cleric spells. Maybe instead of having X/Y spells per day you could have X/Y spells known that you then cast from your spells/day. I think that would be pretty cool, decently balanced, and a lot easier to manage in terms of bookkeeping.
Sorcerer Spells Known- where there is a ? you learn a spell but you may only understand it in theory since you might not be able to CAST spells there.
I'd consider just marking the number of spells known here anyway because even normal sorcerers and such aren't certain to be able to cast spells they have access to. For example, you could just opt to learn a lower level spell in place of the one you can't actually cast and swap it out later.
For example, if you couldn't cast 3rd level spells (because your key stat is a 12, or because you have 0 spell slots per day because you lack bonus spells) you might instead opt to learn another 2nd level spell in its place that you can use.
Evil Bishops would also ONLY turn undead... again that is based on the Wizardry series... but I see how that would be weird...
I ran into some issues in that Priests/Bishops in Wizardry "Dispel" undead... meaning that they just wave their god fingers and zombies crumble into experience points... That seemed overkill so I sorta combined Turn Undead (which btw used STRANGE language... Flee is unfamiliar as opposed to Panicked or Frightened- but I guess it circumvents the whole 'Fear Immunity' thing.) with the damage of Channel energy (since they can't use it to heal and it only works on Undead I was like- Yeah... this is ok)
A slightly simpler way to express this might be to give them Turn/Rebuke Undead automatically and give them bonus damage/healing for the undead, and lift the alignment restrictions on their channeling so you can choose either/or. Perhaps every 2 levels they get +1d6 to their channel damage/healing and +1 to the DC for every +2d6 that they get?
I had originally thought about having the apex of that ability be adding your Charisma score to your Wisdom score to determine bonus spells... Maybe do a 4/8/Charisma addition? The idea was that a strong Charisma would fuel MORE magical power (and again... this class taps out at like a 2/2 (cleric/sorcerer) for each spell level (with higher level spells being even lower).
Maybe allow you to apply 1/2 your Charisma score to your Wisdom score to determine bonus spells, but on;y up to 3rd level. Then only up to 6th level. Then finally up to 9th level? This would mean that Wisdom still produces the fastest progression towards bonus spells but each point of Charisma is +0.5 Wisdom for the purposes of bonus spells. Thus when you get your +2/+4/+6 Charisma item it's +1/+2/+3 Wisdom for bonus spells, which means if you're pumping Wisdom as well your net would be +9 wisdom for bonus spells. Throw in inherent modifiers and level-ups and you'll feel like the king of bonus spell slots.
Top tier you might be looking at a Wisdom score of 24 and a 32 Charisma, but you'd effectively have a 40 Wisdom for the purposes of bonus spells (which would grant you 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 3 6th, 3 7th, 2 8th, and 2 9th level bonus spells).
No, but honestly encouraging little multiclassing in 3.5 is basically shooting the biggest strength of the system in the foot.Duly noted.
Standard point buy is balanced around the elite array and it's what the elite array is based on. I'm partial to Pathfinder's 15 PB, mostly because I like it better than the 3.x point buy, but it's equivalent to the standard there.I'm worried without Pathfinder's liberal +2 to ability scores such a low point buy will further punish my non-caster PC's. Or encourage my caster PC's to liberally prepare buff spells, which isn't necessarily bad news. I tend to stick to the elite array in PF and have had no complaints about the power level, I'm just worried that players starting on a 15 might have cause for complaint.
Thanks for the feedback!
Anytime. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At Vinnies need ideas for sci fy fantasy paperbacks to get, I know nothing past Forgotten Realms, LotR, krynn and Stephen king
Unfortunately I don't have much time to read novels. I tend to spend most of it working, gaming, or preparing for gaming, or working on projects for...gaming. >_>
A buddy of mine is practically a connoisseur of fantasy novels though. I'll see if I can get some feedback from him.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
D20 Previews
Thought some people here might be interested in seeing some incredibly early pre-alpha previews of the d20 core I'm working on. None of the classes are in progress at the moment so I'm using the default PF classes as stand ins at the moment. Here's some simple statblocks using the iconics from my campaign setting and some notes.
Silia the Drider
9th Level Large aberration Hybrid
Init +2; Senses darkvision 120 ft., detect good, detect law, detect magic; Perception +15
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 17; (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +8 natural, –1 size)
hp 76 (40+36)
Fort 18, Ref 16, Will 19
Immune sleep; SR 18
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee mwk heavy mace +9 (1d8+3), bite +8 (1d4+1 plus poison)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +8 (1d8+2)
Bonus Damage / Attacks +1d6 / +1
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks web (+7 ranged, DC 18, hp 9)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th)
Constant—detect good, detect law, detect magic
At will—dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire
1/day—clairaudience/clairvoyance, deeper darkness, dispel magic, levitate, suggestion (DC +6)Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 6th)
3rd (4/day)—lightning bolt (+6)
2nd (6/day)—invisibility, web (DC +5)
1st (7/day)—mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement (DC +4), silent image (DC +4)
0 (at will)—bleed (DC +3), daze (DC +3), ghost sound, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic, resistance
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 21 (33 vs. trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Dodge, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (bite, mace)
Skills Climb +22, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Perception +15, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +14; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Elven, Undercommon
SQ undersized weapons
Where's the HD? What's that Class?
Silia is a sample modification of the standard drider. A few things that you'll notice in her statblocks is that references to Hit Dice are currently removed and she has a class-like role called "Hybrid". This is because monsters and PCs will advance more closely to one-another in terms of capabilities and expectations (and the number of supertypes is diminishing). There are multiple reasons for this but the main reasons are:1. There's less confusion between almost synonymous terms such as hit dice and level.
2. It will be easier to include monstrous PCs without requiring a lot of strange and unique rules. If you want a troll in your party, you'll be able to match them up with PCs far more easily.
3. It will be easier to scale monsters up and down depending on the needs of your campaign world.
4. Monsters will frequently be less shackled to their supertype and more towards their roles. Not all fey will have a D6 HD and +1/2 BAB and great will saves for example (which in turn means of you wanted to make certain more brutish fey you don't have to shovel a million HD onto them and inflate/deflate their ability scores).
Next you'll probably notice that instead of saving throws and DCs for her spells she has a Fort, Ref, and Will defense and a bonus on her spells. These work like you might expect (the bonus she rolls vs defenses). Some of you may have noticed that her saves are a bit off for her apparent level. This is because instead of +1/3 and +1/2 to saves, all saves progress at +1/2 level and you get bonuses to your saves based on your class or classes. The end math is still being worked on but it basically means that your saves will be pretty close to each other at high levels even though you may have one or two that are superior. This makes it less trivial to just target the weak save vs a creature's type. It's still optimal but it's not the "I win" button that it often is in d20.
One of the strangest new additions that you might see is her attack routine or perhaps lack thereof. Instead of having a routine spread out as "mwk heavy mace +X/+Y (dmg), bite +Z (dmg)" she instead just has her weapons and her natural attacks listed here. Below you'll notice that she has a statistic entitled "Bonus Damage/Attacks". This is a statistic derived from her Base Attack Bonus. Every attack that she makes gets an additional +1d6 damage. Her bonus attacks are sort of like iterative attacks and she can take them with any of the weapons that she wields. Each additional attack applies a -2 penalty to her other attacks, so if she's in melee her options look like this:
Mace +9 or Bite +8
Mace +7 and Bite +6
Mace +5/+5 and Bite +4
A Note About Attacks
There is no such thing as a "full attack" in this system. When you declare attacks as a standard action, you can choose how many of your extra attacks (if available) you will attempt this round prior to rolling your first. You may then disperse these attacks as you wish throughout the round, including taking other actions between them such as moving.
If Silia was fighting a group of hobgoblin warriors with a low armor class, such as AC 15, she might declare that she wants to use all of her attacks. She might then move up to a hobgoblin, swing her mace, fell him, continue moving to the next hobgoblin, dispatch him, then move to the final hobgoblin and bite him.
However, if she were facing a more formidable foe who had a more robust armor class, she might opt to attempt only two more accurate strikes against the foe or to perform a vital strike.
Vital Strike
A vital strike is now a mechanic baked into the combat system. It comes online when you gain additional attacks from a high BAB. When you choose to vital strike you take a single attack at your highest accuracy bonus but you multiply your bonus damage dice by the number of extra attacks you get. In Silia's case, she's got +1d6 and 1 extra attack, so she would make a single attack at +9 with her mace for +2d6 damage, which might be ideal for fighting a tough-to-hit foe.
Bonus Dice / Attacks / Vital Stike scales smoothly with your BAB as you advance. At 20th level, a dedicated martial has +5d6 bonus dice, +4 attacks (for a total of 5), and can vital strike for +25d6 damage on an attack. Some martials will still prefer to opt for multiple attacks though, since thanks to static modifiers like Strength or if your to-hit is really solid, you can push out more damage by hitting repeatedly.
If you haven't notice, this means martials can wreck sub-par enemies. While fighting the Pit Fiend at 20th level you might just swing two or maybe three times, you can move around the field wrecking mooks by slamming them repeatedly with high damage attacks because their AC will be much lower. In other words, when you have hit your 95% accuracy, it's time to start trading accuracy for more attacks.
Grognards might compare this to Ye Olde Figh-tars getting lots of extra attacks vs mooks. It's a lot like that. It also generally means that high level enemies are even more threatening to low-level creatures (a dragon can flail its body around and slaughter tons of low level soliders but will have to time its attacks against a hardened warrior).
More coming in the next post.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Next up I want to cover some of the changes to the equipment, critical hit, and damage dealing characters.
Jaldia the Drow Ranger
9th Level Medium Humanoid (Elf,Drow) Ranger 9
Init +10; Senses darkvision 120 ft., Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 22; (+4 Dex, +8 armor, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 77 (59+18)
Fort 20, Ref 21, Will 17; +2 vs Enchantment; evasion
Immune sleep; SR 15
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee 2 +2 longswords +16 (1d8+6/17-20; deadly)
Ranged +2 longbow +15 (1d8+8/19-20; powerful)
Bonus Damage/Attacks +2d6 / +1
Special Attacks favored enemy (elves) +4, favored enemy (goblins) +2
Str 18 (16), Dex 18 (16), Con (14) 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
BAB +9; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Dual-Wielding, Toughness, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Precise Shot, Endurance, Improved Critical (Blades), Quick Draw
Skills - To be added
Jaldia is a member of the queen's huntresses that wages an ongoing war with the exiled prince. She is a master duelist, archer, and assassin. She excels at getting in and inflicting as much damage as she can in the shortest amount of time possible.
Notice the Weapons
Firstly, you'll notice that even though she has a bow like Silia, her weaponry has some interesting threat ranges. This is because your critical chance with your weapons is not based on the weapon it's based on your proficiency. Silia only has simple proficiency with her weapons. Jaldia has military proficiency so she threatens on a 19-20.
Next, notice the weapon properties. I didn't include these on Silia because I didn't want to overload the palette just yet. These are new weapon properties that are possessed by weapon groups. Deadly inflicts a lot more damage on successful critical hits (with Jaldia's military proficiency, when she crits she gets +4 damage / die rolled). Powerful inflicts +1 damage per die rolled but her military proficiency increases it to +2.
You may notice that these statblocks don't have multipliers. This is is because a critical hit is maximized damage, not multiplied. It also includes bonus dice from a high BAB.
Why is she using two Longswords?
Jaldia wields two longswords because there is no additional penalty for dual-wielding one-handed weapons. This is because there are other incentives for dual-wielding light weapons (because light weapons use your Dexterity modifier for attack rolls) so she instead opts to use longswords because they are a tiny bit stronger than light weapons and she intents to be a strength-based character later.
How Does She Work?
Jaldia's tactics are set up as follows. In melee she prefers to unleash a flourish of attacks with her longswords in hopes of threatening burst criticals with her deadly property. Deadly applies a +4 bonus to damage for every die she rolls for damage, including her bonus dice from her BAB. This means that when she hits with her longsword she deals 1d8+6+2d6 damage (average 17.5), but a critical hit inflicts 38 damage and that's what she's going for most of the time. Sudden burst damage hits.
Dual-wielding lets her make up to one additional attack with her second weapon for every attack she normally has. Because of this, Jaldia's melee attack routine looks like this.
Longsword Strike +16 (1d8+4d6+6 / 24.5 average / 58 crit)
Longswords +14/+14 (1d8+2d6+6 / 17.5 average / 38 crit)
Longswords +12/+12/+12 (1d8+2d6+6 / 17.5 average / 38 crit)
Longswords +10/+10/+10/+10 (1d8+2d6+6 / 17.5 average / 38 crit)
What About the Bow?
Jaldia's tactics with her bow are completely different. Instead of focusing on a flourish of attacks, she instead uses her bow's powerful ability to pump out single bursty-shots which are ideal for disrupting spellcasters or other high profile targets. She almost always Vital Strikes with her bow because the more dice she rolls on the damage the more boost she gets from her bow's Powerful Property.
Vital Bow +15 (1d8+4d6+16 / 34.5 average / 48 crit)
Bow +13/+13 (1d8+2d6+8 / 19.5 average / 28 crit)
What's Up with Improved Critical?
You'll notice that she doesn't have improved critical (longsword). That's because longswords fall into the "blades" weapon category. Long story short, she gets Improved Critical with any sword-like weapon she grabs, be it a falchion, longsword, cutlass, scimitar, no-dachi, katana, whatever. If the ogre magi drops a shamshir, she can wreck faces with it.
What's her projected role?
Jaldia generally hops up on longstrider and rushes into combat as fast as possible. She excels at destroying minions in short order since she can pull up to 4 attacks per round without bonus attacks from things like haste, which means that against low-CR foes she can often one-shot them on a critical and keep moving with her attack (similar to how Aragorn just starts wading into a pile of orc warriors in the Fellowship of the Ring).
Since she doesn't use a shield she's pretty vulnerable to other damagers like herself, so she generally doesn't try to melee with things that can stifle her damage output and return fire, nor is she particularly fond of creatures that also excel at wrecking faces. In such cases she tries to use kiting tactics while shooting with her bow to avoid getting killed due to her lower AC.
If buffed by her party's wizard so she can use Stealth in combat, she becomes the predator and will attempt to find and assassinate high-profile targets like squishy wizards in the back ranks. Appearing from Stealth into melee and opening up with a flurry of potential crit-burts can be terrifying for those of low armor and physical fortitude!
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Next up, I want to talk about how monsters are being rebalanced here. A few major changes are occurring that change the dynamics of the game in really big ways.
Moving + All Attacks!? Hydras Slay ALL!
This is a natural concern. A lot of monsters in d20 are balanced around the idea of the full attack rooting you to the ground which makes certain monsters like the hydra or big dragons creatures you want to kite because if they get into melee you eat a devastating full attack. Now they can just run up to you and start crushing your face! What do you do?
Well, this was something that was considered very, very hard. Initially it was very difficult to settle on a system that both PCs and monsters shared alike that was fair for everyone involved. Allowing PCs to move + attack was nice but it meant most monsters just became super duper mega-dangerous. However, forcing monsters to plant roots felt bizarre and really wrong. The end result was the system where additional attacks have diminishing returns. Eureka. Suddenly we have a thematic and awesome way of making this work.
By making monsters take penalties for additional attacks, it means that they too are regulated in much the same way as PCs. If a monster wants to move up and wreck your face with five attacks, he's trading accuracy for a potential damage increase.
Challenge Rating and Danger Levels
In standard Pathfinder, two CR 5 creatures are supposed to be equivalent to a CR 7 creature. Of course, this means the reverse must be true and that a CR 7 creature is worth two CR 5 creatures. This is almost never the case (triply so with classed creatures) as they usually do not have much more in the way of offense, have much worse action economy, and certainly didn't double their HP and defenses so...?
With this system, a higher level character is expected to be significantly stronger than those beneath it. A lot of this is reflected in heavy dangers and increased action opportunities that are good for mopping up weak foes but slowing down against more equal leveled enemies. Jaldia in the previous example will steamroll a bunch of CR 3 enemies (she's CR 8 or 9) because she can attack lots of them with multiple CR 5 equivalent punishments.
Thanks to worsening effects, spellcasters will enjoy similar benefits as many of their spells have heightened effects against those whose defenses they can exceed by a certain threshold.
Generally speaking, this means that boss encounter monsters (IE things with much higher CRs) are more dangerous (they're harder to guard against if you're playing conservatively and they can dish out some hurt) while also being sturdier (you can't rely on powering through them with low-accuracy high burst attacks, nor can you rely on one-shotting them with spells like flesh to stone) which means doing things like kiting and whittling them down while trying to survive their wrath.
For example, if Jaldia was fighting a CR 11 creature (an "Epic" encounter for her and her party) its AC would be much higher, so it is not only more insulated against her flurry but it's harder to land a successful critical that way (confirmations are a thing and will either continue to be or we might make it work similar to spells where the crit occurs if your attack roll exceeds your opponent's AC by a certain threshold, which might be an option to cut down on extra rolling). So not only is the foe tougher in terms of AC but it's harder to actually hurt than more level appropriate foes.
So About That Hydra
Okay, so let's take a 12 headed hydra. In Pathfinder this beastie has 12 bites at +15. Giving him what amounts to pounce is really mean.
Well in this system the hydra would have 12 attacks that it could bring to bare. Of course, that's like a -22 penalty on his attack rolls. Fortunately the Multi-attack feat saves the day. Multi-attack cuts the penalty for your natural attacks in half so making 12 attacks at once would mean the hydra has a +5 to hit on every attack.
For the record, 12 attacks is excessive and the crappy to-hit is intentional. Again, a big part of this system is thematic combat with a sliding scale. It is the opposite of bounded accuracy. Normal men and women do not fight the hydra, heroes fight the hydra. Normal soldiers will get slaughtered en mass, but heroes can stand against the hydra.
Mind you, the hydra's damage and such would be bigger (19 Strength on a HUGE creature? Gimme a break...) so having fewer attacks vs equivalent heroes isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings. Though against particularly tanky heroes the hydra might become frustrated and just start a biting frenzy hoping something connects (your evasion caps at 5% so through out enough bites and something's going to hit sometime).
But yeah, this is basically why monsters don't just one-shot you because they have lots of natural attacks. A dragon can flail about and wreck lowbies but may opt for more of a bite->grab-smash routine, or might have abilities that let him ignore penalties for extra attacks as long as they're split between targets (so he can fight with multiple PCs at the same time, swinging his tail at the rogue while buffeting the cleric and biting the fighter).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So back to this Vital Striking thing...
One of the things I'm most fond of with this system I've been working on is that you're no longer a slave to the almighty full attack. It is entirely possible to create viable characters who make one big attack each round. No one will feel more relieved from this than those who like...
Crossbows and Muskets.
Damn, these weapons have been getting the shaft for ages now. It's full-attack or bust so unless you reload these things like the flash, you're pretty much screwed. No longer. Because you can inflict heavy damage with vital striking you'll be able to make viable gunmen by speccing ways of piercing things like miss % and vital striking for big single shots that are strong.
At 20th level with a mastered powerful weapon (+3 damage / die), vital striking with a single crossbow or musket round would allow you to pump out X+25d6+78 damage. Essentially blowing away about 1/2 the HP of a major enemy. Reload! Repeat!
Just watch out for Jaldia. If you're pushing damage like that at a range, she's probably going to stab you in the back.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see tacticslion's doin' the tacticslion thing. Any comments Mr. Lion? :P
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I see tacticslion's doin' the tacticslion thing. Any comments Mr. Lion? :P
No he isn't, it is I favoriting all of thine posts!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I see tacticslion's doin' the tacticslion thing. Any comments Mr. Lion? :PNo he isn't, it is I favoriting all of thine posts!
Oh snap! They're breeding! :D
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's a Constitutional Right
Okay, going to have to bust out something that may shock everyone but...everything has Constitution in this revision. Okay, not literally everything, but creatures do. Doesn't matter if they're undead or construct, they have a Con score.
This is mostly because a lack of Con score (3.x) produces crappy results. Meanwhile an alternate Con score (Cha as Con) produces very weird and often overpowered results (alas, I love you lich-adin but you are just too ****ing amazing).
Constitution in this core represents general heartiness and fortitude. Constructs and undead will still have things representing the fact they aren't living organisms (mostly in terms of not having to eat or sleep, immunities to poisons and diseases, immunity to fatigue and nausea, stuff like that) but will still have a Constitution score to represent how overall tough they are.
See, the thing is, Constitution as an ability score has one major purpose. That purpose is "Being Tough". That's pretty much all it does and all it is for. It is typically your "Not Die" stat. It doesn't really apply to any skills and rarely applies to abilities (some exceptions like poisons, breath weapons, etc), and it certainly doesn't (and shouldn't) apply to offensive abilities.
Things like Charisma...those are used for spell-like abilities, spellcasting, lots of supernatural abilities, auras, opposed checks vs charms, etc. It's also kind of a bonus stat for things like divine grace. Suddenly this ability score's value has skyrocketed at Constitution just bottomed.
It also creates a weird situation where unless you were an incredibly charming warrior you're kind of a putz when you rise from the grave since your Charisma is probably mediocre at best and one of your best stats doesn't exist anymore.
With Constructs, you have a different problem. At low levels they're horribly strong because they get tons of bonus HP for size. At high levels they're disgustingly weak because they have no bonus HP beyond that base size value, forcing them to be statted out as super high-HD creatures just so they don't crumble to dust when an adventurer bumps into them rough.
So...yeah, Constitution. They all have it. The funny thing is, this isn't even a new thing. Star Wars d20 had droids. They are basically constructs. They also had Constitutions representing how tough they were. For some reason it didn't catch on in later iterations of d20. I'm sad it didn't because it worked really well.
I think I'm going to look up a local shop for getting custom t-shirts made and send some select people some cultist T-shirts. I just <3 you guys. :P
So Tels, Aratrok, 137ben...*counts*
I'm gonna need to do some shopping around.
Haha, oh gosh, I believe I was there for that thread. I'd say it should remain buried but I recall lots of exciting statblocks, stories and encounters amidst the madness.
Neat-homebreworino.
I really like what I'm seeing. I believe I attempted something similar with weapons not long ago, but I never put it into practice. If you have an inkling to playtest it here on the boards I pretty much exclusively play PbP these days, and would be very much game.
Open Question: Who here has played with the massive damage rules, either in 3.x or Pathfinder? I've honestly seen them all of once in play. They seem silly, but I'm hesitant to just throw them out the window as they're not regarded as an optional rule in 3.x (although most groups regarded them as such, it seems).
Question for our wise overseer: Ashiel, will I ever finish Morrowind/Neverwinter Nights/The Baldurs Gate series? Or am I doomed to start them afresh every time I pick them up again forever?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*sigh*
If only Ashiel had been consulted for work on Pathfinder Unchained...
Ashiel, have you thought about possibly tackling the issue of size vs attacks in your new system? What I mean is, when you look at the relative size of creatures in this system, the limbs of the attacks some creatures make are physically larger than the creature they fight.
For example, look at that wonderfully sexy red dragon in the linked picture. His claw is roughly the size of that troll, and yet, if two medium sized creatures stand side by side, his claw attack hits only one or the other, not both.
I'm wondering if you've thought about this issue at all?
It seems like a problem that would require quite a bit of thought, especially if one wanted to design a system that could universally be applied to all creatures. It's especially difficult, because some creatures should be able to deal huge AoE attacks.
For example, that dragon should be able to take a single swipe at a hoard of enemies, slaying them all with a single blow (like Sauron in the LotR movie). Perhaps tying it into the reach of a creature some how? Like some weapons can be used to make a cone attack based on the reach of a creature, while other attacks can be used to make a 'burst' attack in an area. As in, the Red Dragon could make a 20 ft. cone attack with his wing attack (maybe AoE deal minimum damage?) but his claw attack could be used to make a 10 ft. radius (half his reach) burst attack (like stomping on an enemy).
On another note...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think I'm going to look up a local shop for getting custom t-shirts made and send some select people some cultist T-shirts. I just <3 you guys. :P
So Tels, Aratrok, 137ben...*counts*
I'm gonna need to do some shopping around.
*SQUEEEEE*
Senpai has noticed me!!!
*dies*
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Haha, oh gosh, I believe I was there for that thread. I'd say it should remain buried but I recall lots of exciting statblocks, stories and encounters amidst the madness.
Neat-homebreworino.I really like what I'm seeing. I believe I attempted something similar with weapons not long ago, but I never put it into practice. If you have an inkling to playtest it here on the boards I pretty much exclusively play PbP these days, and would be very much game.
Thanks. I might give it a try. I also plan to just make the alpha rules available to people via my google drive as a reference document for an open playtest.
Open Question: Who here has played with the massive damage rules, either in 3.x or Pathfinder? I've honestly seen them all of once in play. They seem silly, but I'm hesitant to just throw them out the window as they're not regarded as an optional rule in 3.x (although most groups regarded them as such, it seems).
Honestly I think massive damage is really dumb. It's 4am here and I'm dead tired so that's about as eloquent as I'm getting until I've had a nap. XD
Question for our wise overseer: Ashiel, will I ever finish Morrowind/Neverwinter Nights/The Baldurs Gate series? Or am I doomed to start them afresh every time I pick them up again forever?
Dunno...it's what I always do too. Q_Q
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still haven't finished the original NWN1 campaign despite purchasing the game in 2003, though I've played through both the expansion campaigns. But then again I bought NWN primarily for the multiplayer so it's not as if it hasn't seen its fair share of use.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still haven't finished the original NWN1 campaign despite purchasing the game in 2003, though I've played through both the expansion campaigns. But then again I bought NWN primarily for the multiplayer so it's not as if it hasn't seen its fair share of use.
I can't speak to Morrowind, but the NWN 1 single player campaign is awfully boring. The NWN expansions are much better, and NWN 2 is amazing. Multi-player is also why I got that game.
Baldurs Gate 1 &2 should be played immediately.
Both NWN 1 OC and NWN 2 OC are really, really boring, even when showing off really cool ideas (the concept of the plague/cure, the concept of the undead device {sadly, though understandably, NPC-only}, and the concept of the old ones in 1; the concept of the [BAD GUY SPOILER], shards (and Gith), and getting a friggin' castle of your own in 2). Mostly they come down to grindy "go here, do this, go back"-style quests that just aren't all that fun.
However, for NWN 1, Shadows of Undrentide is pretty good, while Hordes of the Underdark is friggin' amazing (just last month, I went through another run-through and came across a dialogue bit I'd never heard before, which really startled me: turned out, I was going through the place in a slightly different order, and had progressed the relationship already a bit more than in previous play-throughs, so what she said differed).
Similarly, for NWN 2, Mask of the Betrayer is phenomenal. Absolutely great.
So daggum cool.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see tacticslion's doin' the tacticslion thing. Any comments Mr. Lion? :P
Sorry! I was busy yesterday.
:D
(Really, though, it was much more than that, but I wasn't online when you were posting this. Funnily enough, I was "doin' [my] thing", before I found your post. I feel so... predictable. Wait! I am lawful! Weeee~! :D)
EDIT: also a) the statbock I linked is "off" a bit (it works for us, though, and uses the 3.X dragon-gestalt-hit dice rules), b) there's too much for me to absorb/digest/comment on right now, and c) I'm doing the same thing with vital strikes. :D
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*warlock*
...and I'll need a t-shirt too :P
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*sigh*
If only Ashiel had been consulted for work on Pathfinder Unchained...
Ashiel, have you thought about possibly tackling the issue of size vs attacks in your new system? What I mean is, when you look at the relative size of creatures in this system, the limbs of the attacks some creatures make are physically larger than the creature they fight.
For example, look at that wonderfully sexy red dragon in the linked picture. His claw is roughly the size of that troll, and yet, if two medium sized creatures stand side by side, his claw attack hits only one or the other, not both.
I'm wondering if you've thought about this issue at all?
It seems like a problem that would require quite a bit of thought, especially if one wanted to design a system that could universally be applied to all creatures. It's especially difficult, because some creatures should be able to deal huge AoE attacks.
Actually yes, yes it has been considered and discussed a bit and we've got some ideas for how to implement it as well and we'll probably do it in the form of selectable monster abilities (kind of like the Snatch feat in Pathfinder and how it's iconic for dragons but totally cool for other big monsters).
We've also discussed options for multi-hitting melee attacks. A few things we're definitely considering is options for making additional attacks without reducing your to-hit but only if you're splitting your attacks (this is going to be a big action economy booster for a lot of creatures), as well as AoE attack options. For example...
For example, that dragon should be able to take a single swipe at a hoard of enemies, slaying them all with a single blow (like Sauron in the LotR movie). Perhaps tying it into the reach of a creature some how? Like some weapons can be used to make a cone attack based on the reach of a creature, while other attacks can be used to make a 'burst' attack in an area. As in, the Red Dragon could make a 20 ft. cone attack with his wing attack (maybe AoE deal minimum damage?) but his claw attack could be used to make a 10 ft. radius (half his reach) burst attack (like stomping on an enemy).What Sauron we could be seen doing here is making a Vital Strike in Cone and Burst AoEs. These sorts of things are being discussed and we'll probably replace things like Cleave and Whirlwind Attack with these sorts of features. Humorously, most dragons in Pathfinder have Cleave as a feat but it's virtually useless for pretty much everyone in Pathfinder. Now dragons would have a pretty huge reason to have Cleaving attacks, presumably because their potential to throw around lots of AoE attacks would be very high.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ability to easily AOE as a martial would be amazing. I love playing those kind of classes in MMOS, just because of the bang for the buck (more hits per resource spent) and the ability to tank/destroy groups both enhances your survivability (they die to quick to really be a threat) when soloing. That's why I love Unholy Dks, and Paladins in WOW, and to a lesser extent Warriors.
Shadowknights in EQ2 I think are the best at this, amongst all of the caster tank classes I've ever played in an MMO. I miss that character horribly, as the game doesn't offer me anything other than nostalgia anymore.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ability to easily AOE as a martial would be amazing.
A bit off the normal path, but I recommend The Genius Guide to Horrifically Overpowered Feats. Barring a few (Gestalt, Magic User, a couple others), they really aren't that broken, and the Meta-Attack Feats are both incredibly not-broken and amazingly useful to martial characters. Highly recommended, inexpensive, and surprisingly well-balanced despite the starting tagline of "this product is a bad idea".
My review's right at the top if you want further details. =)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
About Monsters
One of the design goals that's on the table at the moment is the desire to make monster building and advancement an easier process for everyone and to bring Level/CR more closely together (Pathfinder did a huge push in this direction but it's still a little wonky in some areas).
Monster Roles
In Pathfinder a lot of a monster's raw statistics are based on its creature's super-type. For example, all outsiders have a perfect BAB and all fey have a poor BAB. A lot of other creatures have middling stats with only a few variances. The problem with this is it's often difficult to get much diversity between the monsters with the same supertypes or to create monsters that go against the norms for its type.
Enter monster roles. Once we've developed it further, the supertype will not directly affect the creature's HP, BAB, Skills, Saves, etc. Instead it will generally function more like subtypes do now where it basically details common traits shared between creatures of its kind, such as racial immunities (such as with undead) and special qualities possessed by all creatures of its kind (such as elves).
Then you are free to select from a much smaller pool of monster roles. The roles haven't been defined but the three basic ones we've discussed in theorycraft have been:
1. Warrior (great combat ability, poor magic)
2. Hybrid (a good mix of both)
3. Caster (poor combat ability, great magic)
So for example, a succubus demon might be statted as a caster (having her SLAs being very dangerous) while a nabasu demon might be a hybrid (it has a fair mixture of martial abilities and SLAs) and a babau demon a warrior (it has almost no casting stuff and mostly relies on skill use and whacking stuff).
In Pathfinder, all of these monsters have perfect BAB, d10 HD, 6 + int mod skills, and 2 good saves (which are usually identical). Every single variance between them to make them better at standing out in certain roles then has to be tweaked elsewhere in places like ability scores and/or feats and such.
What do you want to accomplish with this?
Firstly, I want to make a much easier process for building, leveling, or weakening monsters in the system. I want to set some firm standards for what sort of things are relatively appropriate for a creature based on its overall level. For example, Pathfinder is full of monsters that mention their advanced versions having greater spell-like abilities but God only knows how that works without just winging it.
With this, we're hoping to not only create more diversity in roles but to allow you more easily create new monsters, upgrade existing monsters, and even more easily allow monstrous PCs into your game without hassles. A 3rd level Ogre for example should be more or less equivalent to a 3rd level character.
Won't that be complicated?
Complexity is a big concern for us when it comes to making anything. I see the rules as kind of like computer code. You want it to be powerful and elegant but demand as little processing power from the computer as possible. Every redundant check or extra step you have to go through is more demand on the mind behind it and slows the game. Now loading as it were.
Because of this, monstrous character classes are intended to be simpler, being more like the NPC classes from Pathfinder. They will typically possess various passive abilities that don't stack with magic items (such as energy resistances) but scale with level and will have a few selectable abilities like bonus feats. EDIT: A big reason for this is so that monsters can engage in encounters with appropriately leveled PCs without needing a lot of magic gear while also not overpowering things if they change sides of the screen since existing magic items won't let them jump the gun so to speak, rather it will effectively be trading class features for virtual gold (since if you don't need to buy things like a ring of energy resistance then you can spend it on something else).
Mind you, the idea is that not every bestiary creature needs to be built from the ground up like an eidolon or something. Far from it. Instead, I'll be tackling the design and creation of the iconic monsters from the Bestiary/Monster Manual myself and letting the nuts and bolts of it be available for GMs who want to (de)level, tweak, or build new monsters or versions of monsters once they're more comfortable with the system. But now when you advance that demon from an 8th level demon to a 16th level demon, you'll have an idea as to what sorts of new SLAs are kosher and what sorts of cool new abilities might be reasonable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The ability to easily AOE as a martial would be amazing. I love playing those kind of classes in MMOS, just because of the bang for the buck (more hits per resource spent) and the ability to tank/destroy groups both enhances your survivability (they die to quick to really be a threat) when soloing. That's why I love Unholy Dks, and Paladins in WOW, and to a lesser extent Warriors.
Shadowknights in EQ2 I think are the best at this, amongst all of the caster tank classes I've ever played in an MMO. I miss that character horribly, as the game doesn't offer me anything other than nostalgia anymore.
Generally speaking I want to give martials a lot more fun things to play with and AoE attacks is a big one. Especially since the encounters will innately recommend mixed group encounters. :)
It's very frustrating that in Pathfinder to have a sort of AoE battlefield presence you have to play an exceptionally specific sort of warrior. In this, all martials can have an AoE presence, but those guys with the big reach weapons and combat reflex-type specializations are going to be better at it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lorant.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Note on Skills
Aratrok and I were up last night 'till the wee hours (about 5am my time) discussing design goals and skills. Skills are a funny subject in Pathfinder because Pathfinder has the following problems:
1. Non-opposed skills become useless with no reason to invest more ranks in them or are rendered useless with things like Magic very early.
2. Lots of skills cap out early.
3. Class skills are very binary and it's only a +3 or not a +3.
4. Opposed skill checks are crazy because the amount of bonuses you can get from all over the place means that specialization equates to auto-success forever.
5. Perhaps oddest of all, is skills are treated as a balancing feature of classes while simultaneously being mostly useless and easily acquired. So when a class like Rogue boasts 8 skill points per level it really doesn't mean much over the guy with 4 skill points per level, especially since more points equates to diminishing returns and a headband of intellect is all you need to get the lion's share.
About Skill Ranks
Ranks are going to be really important in this system. Not only are they one of the main contributors to your character's success with their skills but they also unlock new options.
We wanted characters to be able to do awesome fantasy things with sufficient ranks in skills. However, we believe those things should be done at appropriate levels. Just setting higher DCs isn't really a good solution because it means that hyper-specialization could allow mundane characters to do extraordinary things. I also don't mean mundane as in "nonmagical", I mean mundane as in Bob the Builder happens to be walking on water because he happens to have a great Dex, a few ranks in Acrobatics, and rolled a 20.
So now, most every skill will be something you can attempt without training. However, the more trained you are in a skill the more new features will open up. So instead of trained being a binary thing (do you have 1 rank or not?) instead you will get progressively new options to use for extra ranks. So anyone can attempt to walk on a narrow surface but only someone with X ranks in Acrobatics can attempt to walk on water and eventually with Y ranks they can try to walk through the air.
You'll see stuff like this with skills like Craft, Heal, etc as well. Investing ranks will be a big deal for your character and make them useful and relevant forever.
Class Skills and Tagging
We're going to be changing the way class skills work to a hybrid between Pathfinder and 3.x. You'll be able to invest more skill points into class skills than non-class skills. At the moment, we're looking at 1/2 the value of your class skills. So if you can invest 12 ranks into a class skill you can drop 6 ranks into your off-skills.
However, unlike in 3.5, all points are spent on a 1:1 basis and instead of worrying which skill is a class skill for each class at each level, your class skills are basically tagged like in Fallout. In other words, you'll get to pick X class skills. If you multiclass you can get some more. If you take a feat you can get some more, etc.
Intelligence and Skills
It might come as a shock to some but Intelligence is getting divorced from skill points (don't worry, it's getting buffed in other places). There are a few reasons for this.
1. It's not really that realistic. There are lots of people in the world that aren't that bright but are loaded with a lot of practical skills. Those skills might not be Int-based things, but the low-Int rogue probably still learned how climb, pick locks, lie, and so forth just from doing those things regularly.
2. It's not very balanced. If you've ever seen any wizard with 14 skill points / level, you'll know that it gives certain classes way more oomph than not. Sorcerers get the short end of the stick because any class that has Int as a key stat like Wizards are going to be skill monkies by default. Even if you gave them 0 base skill points, by high levels they will have almost every skill.
3. It makes magic items like Headbands of Intellect super amazing. A +3 headband means 3 maxed skills.
4. When you consider that skills are now going to let you do more cool stuff as you have more ranks in them, skill points are more valuable, and we didn't want to make Intelligence a stat that gives you access to lots of extraordinary abilities just because you have a high stat.
How do you get skill points?
Skill points comes from leveling and your class. Whenever you take a level in your class you get a number of skill points (4, 6, or 8 is the current model we're working with). Generally speaking, the less magical a class is the more skill points they get because their time is spent elsewhere.
We plan to also allow feats to grant additional skill points and class skills. So if you want to build a particularly skillful character you can invest in those areas if you desire.
You mentioned picking class skills
One thing I've been strongly considering is instead of having a ton of class skills for particular classes, instead giving a few associated class skills automatically and letting players pick additional skills. For example, a spellcasting class will probably get Spellcraft as a bonus class skill automatically and then you can pick X additional skills to be class skills.
This allows you to build the characters you want more readily. If you're playing in an urban game and your Paladin is an investigator and detective for the local authorities, you might choose class skills that suit that sort of work. Alternatively, a more adventuring sort might pick things that make them better at climbing mountains and swimming.
Opposed Checks and Stuff
One of the things that's kind of a bummer in PF is that the bonuses to skill checks get nutty. Someone with some mild specialization will basically never fail. For example, Skill Focus + Stealth = +10 after 10th level, which means that you will likely never be seen again, especially after Distance penalties unless your spotter has Skill Focus, Alertness, pumped Wisdom as hard as you did Dexterity, and is within 10 ft. of you.
We're reigning it in. The bonuses that you can get to skills outside of your actual advancement will be reduced drastically. There will be room for specialization but it will be more contained and you won't end up with situations where it's just impossible to fail checks against level-appropriate situations. You'll still be able to poop all over those lower level than yourself though. :P
We're also probably going to make Stealth & Perception more like Disguise is in Pathfinder. Disguise doesn't even allow a Perception check unless someone is suspicious. So in this case, if your rogue is stealthing through a crowd the people who don't care or aren't paying attention get no checks. Those passively on guard are assumed to be taking 10. Actively searching rolls.
So if your rogue wanted to sneak into an orc camp and you've got 12 orcs drinking around a fire and a few sentries posted to keep watch, it's the sentries you're competing against. If an alert is raised, then those searching for you get to roll.
We've also discussed that you'll probably get to do some cool silent-killing things with Stealth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lorant.
Ditto.
One note on the Perception/Stealth aspect, you might consider unattentive people having only their perception bonus as their check vs stealth. I'm not actively paying attention to things around me, but I consider my perception to be fairly high (for an NPC).
Even when I'm plugging into my Xbone with Warframe going, a headset on one ear and music playing in the other, I'm still always aware of when people enter or exit my house and I can often tell where they are based on the sounds of their footsteps. Plus, as someone with children running around, I know that I can usually pinpoint where kids are without ever looking for them because "I just know" where they are (whereas their own parents often have to get up and look around to find them, I usually have no need).
Anyway, the point being is that, a bad roll on Stealth should still have a chance of triggering an alert from someone who isn't paying attention. If you're sitting down playing Pathfinder and a burgler knocks a shovel or a bucket over outside, there's a chance the people inside will hear it and go explore.
The way I see this happening, is unattentive people are considered to have Taken 0 on their checks, where as sentries might Take 10. With distance, the might not notice the noise, but the Orcs playing guards might grumble about hearing something. This is the classic, "Ah shut up Burt, it's just the bloody raccoons," moment you hear about in stories all the time. Or it might be one of them gets up to go and check it out and then finds a rat in the food supplies and determines it was the rat making the noise while the stealthing person is actually up in the rafters.
Just food for thought.