Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Considering the level range of PFS, some of the prestige classes where you have/had the option to get in early through the SLA are rather bad in PFS for the majority of time played.
I don't really want to point fingers, but a wizard 3 / cleric 3 usually isn't really as usefull as a "normal" pathfinder. And since the sweet spot for those classes is when the have taken all 10 levels of the PRC, that usually does not happen in PFS.
While I don't want to rain on anybodies parade, some prestige classes really require make you suffer before you are allowed in.
|
|
Considering the level range of PFS, some of the prestige classes where you have/had the option to get in early through the SLA are rather bad in PFS for the majority of time played.
I don't really want to point fingers, but a wizard 3 / cleric 3 usually isn't really as usefull as a "normal" pathfinder. And since the sweet spot for those classes is when the have taken all 10 levels of the PRC, that usually does not happen in PFS.
While I don't want to rain on anybodies parade, some prestige classes really require make you suffer before you are allowed in.
and when mt was the prestige class to walk into the tangy taste of cheese (which i enjoy very much) was nicely balanced by its otherwise underpoweredness.without that...
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
and when mt was the prestige class to walk into the tangy taste of cheese (which i enjoy very much) was nicely balanced by its otherwise underpoweredness.without that...Considering the level range of PFS, some of the prestige classes where you have/had the option to get in early through the SLA are rather bad in PFS for the majority of time played.
I don't really want to point fingers, but a wizard 3 / cleric 3 usually isn't really as usefull as a "normal" pathfinder. And since the sweet spot for those classes is when the have taken all 10 levels of the PRC, that usually does not happen in PFS.
While I don't want to rain on anybodies parade, some prestige classes really require make you suffer before you are allowed in.
I recently played with a very nice fellow with a sorcerer rogue arcane trickster in a scenario, well let's just say the chronicle sheet has huge elven curve blades on it. Some combinations are really bad until and unless they are decent. MT without the cheese seems like someone with a very specific build (Magus/Inquisitor/MT or something like that) and even those don't really work until about level 9-10.
Considering how challenging 7-11 scenarios are I would rather have a pregen in that slot, and isn't that a depressing thought.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Clearly the system was designed with levels a baseline metric for measuring power between PCs. And even if not all levels are created equal, there is still a difference between 11th level and 13th level. The difference being two levels. Level 12+ scenarios have different challenges than 7-11 scenarios. Level 12+ PCs are equipped to handle higher level challenges than 7-11 PCs are. Giving a level 11 access to the tools needed to defeat level 12+ encounters makes zero sense to me. It will just make the 7-11 scenarios they play in that much easier.
As far as you are concerned, that difference is not big enough to matter. To me, however the difference between level 11 and level 13 is huge--it determines access to another level of spells, it determines effective PFS retirement, heck, it determines if the PC can become a Venture-Captain! There is a pretty big difference in PFS between level 11 and level 13. And if you don't see that, or don't think those two levels directly represent a character's level of power, then I am lost as to what to do next.
Which means "two levels" is not a defined amount of actual power.
Which means we need to evaluate the power gap by some metric other than "two levels".
And that means we need to do actual comparisons.
Things like "the early-entry Evangelist can do X at Y level, while his table mates can only do Z at the same level".
Something like "A CRB draconic sorcerer's highest-level blast spell at 11th level is [whatever] for X damage, but the early-Evangelist guy's highest level blast spell is [whatever] and would instead be doing Y damage with a +4 to the DC, and the difference between the two is too far in the Evangelist's favor for the price paid."
Something like that.
And no Jiggy, we don't need to do anything. You guys do if you want to see this changed. You are trying to change the status quo, so show me evidence supporting it. Show me your strongest early entry evangelist builds that aren't overpowered.
If you want me to provide you evidence as to why getting into a class two levels early is overpowered, and rattle off a handful of overpowered builds (in addition to those I already provided that were "not powerful enough" for you) you'll be waiting for a long time, as I believe getting into a class two levels early already speaks for itself. You guys are asking for PCs to get access to level 13 abilities at level 11, that is by definition asking for a more powerful option than what exists today.
If you want John to provide you with evidence supporting the decision that was reached on their part, you'll be waiting a long time. He already posted why that decision was reached and some of us are content with his explanation.
So if you really want to see this changed, you need to do the leg work, not us. You're a smart player, why not come up with the most powerful characters you can think of that make use of evangelist. Post them up here and then explain how they really aren't that great. That may be enough to convince the right people.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Early access to the boons is the wildcard, what's the bugaboo? Looking briefly through Inner Sea Gods I'm not seeing anything that panics me. What panics you? What's the worst abuse you can think of?
Already posted mine up thread. What are yours? What are some strong options that need this change in order to be viable? Why should we allow this change?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
And even if not all levels are created equal, there is still a difference between 11th level and 13th level.
I never claimed otherwise. I only asked how big the difference is.
As far as you are concerned, that difference is not big enough to matter.
There's another thing I never said. I said we should look. I am fully prepared to potentially discover that the gap is too big to allow. How did "let's examine the power gap instead of making assumptions about it" turn into "I already know the size of the power gap"?
I really am willing to work through all this, but I need to see a good-faith effort toward real two-way communication here. Taking every question I ask as a declaration of your wrongness instead of as the actual question asked, well, that really undermines communication. When I say "How much?" and you act like I said "Not enough," we don't get anywhere.
And no Jiggy, we don't need to do anything. You guys do if you want to see this changed. You are trying to change the status quo, so show me evidence supporting it. Show me your strongest early entry evangelist builds that aren't overpowered.
Okay. I'm willing to do that, that's why (in the post that you allegedly read) I asked what you would accept as evidence in that regard.
So, it sounds like your answer to that question is "Build a strong early-entry Evangelist and then demonstrate that it isn't overpowered for its level". So that's what I need to do? If so, I'll put something together the first chance I get. Sound like a plan? Can we work from there?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
... than say Chris Lambertz telling us how she would run things.
My official stance is: a lot more glitter. A whole lot more. Always.
|
Designer
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
... than say Chris Lambertz telling us how she would run things.My official stance is: a lot more glitter. A whole lot more. Always.
New FAQ
In the evangelist Prestige Class from Inner Sea Gods, replace all of its abilities with the following: Ubiquitous Glitter (Sp): An evangelist spreads glitter everywhere she goes. She may cast glitterdust 1/day per evangelist level. At level 10, she can instead use this ability at will.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
And no Jiggy, we don't need to do anything. You guys do if you want to see this changed. You are trying to change the status quo, so show me evidence supporting it. Show me your strongest early entry evangelist builds that aren't overpowered.Okay. I'm willing to do that, that's why (in the post that you allegedly read) I asked what you would accept as evidence in that regard.
So, it sounds like your answer to that question is "Build a strong early-entry Evangelist and then demonstrate that it isn't overpowered for its level". So that's what I need to do? If so, I'll put something together the first chance I get. Sound like a plan? Can we work from there?
Yeah, that's basically what would help convince me. I know that you are more than capable of finding builds that would unbalance the game. If you try and fail to make any overpowered builds, it would go a long way toward convincing me that early entry isn't a bad thing for this PRC.
The best I can come up with is that double animal companion evangelist, which is pretty gnarly. But since it is once per day I don't know how broken in half it really is. I do believe that such a character using that ability wouldn't have much difficulty soloing a majority of BBEG fights in the high tier of a 7-11 game. But this is all hypothetical as I haven't actually build anything myself.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
... than say Chris Lambertz telling us how she would run things.My official stance is: a lot more glitter. A whole lot more. Always.New FAQ
In the evangelist Prestige Class from Inner Sea Gods, replace all of its abilities with the following: Ubiquitous Glitter (Sp): An evangelist spreads glitter everywhere she goes. She may cast glitterdust 1/day per evangelist level. At level 10, she can instead use this ability at will.
Well poop, that settles it. This PRC is broken. Call in the banhammer!
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Don't have time for full builds at the moment, but I wanted to get some thoughts down. Let's start with that "copy your companion" 1/day thing.
This is likely going to be the strongest of Walter's three examples, for one simple reason: getting early entry requires either dipping a level of Scryer wizard or being a vanilla aasimar.
One of the three involves blasting, which means for early entry either you've chosen a suboptimal race or a suboptimal school. The other involves making full-attacks when mounted, which means you've either (again) chosen a suboptimal race or made a BAB-interrupting dip (which is further worsened by losing BAB in Evangelist). (Both options also have additional issues with going into Evangelist at all.)
But the copy cat thing totally works with an aasimar druid. He doesn't even have to go out of his way. So if anything's broken, it'll be that one, so that's where I'll be looking.
Now, some quick thoughts (at 11th level):
For a baseline aasimar druid, we have Fuzzy, a 9HD pouncekitty. We also have (accounting for WIS bonus) two 6th-level spells per day and three 5th-level spells per day. For reference, the BBEG-ending baleful polymorph is 5th-level for druids, though you could always prepare additional castings in your 6th-level slots, though then you're competing with also having a treant guardian for 11 days. Interestingly, the treant is actually higher-HD than the cat.
The early-entry Evangelist, interestingly enough, has the same Fuzzy, because he doesn't advance at Druid11. But at most levels, he's behind. Also, he doesn't have 6th-level spells at all, so no free CR 8 encounter following you around in addition to your kitty. (You also lose sirocco, fire seeds, and some others.)
Wow, now that I look at it side-by-side, the trade between aasimar Druid 11 and Aasimar Druid/Evangelist (early entry) is losing an all-week 12HD treant for a 1/day 9HD cat that costs your first action.
That looks like a downgrade to me, especially when you consider your other 6th-level spell slot besides the treant.
Would you like more detail when I have time?
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
We can always snag Boon Companion as well to bring the level of the AC up to our own. Then we can have your standard AC focused build without dropping HD off the AC and just gain the ability to have double ACs on top of it all.
-----------
Treants are wicked strong. I remember liveoaking up a frontline fighter for us one game when everybody was a caster. We just slapped a handful of buffs on the treant and let him go to town. Fun times.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Treants are wicked strong. I remember liveoaking up a frontline fighter for us one game when everybody was a caster. We just slapped a handful of buffs on the treant and let him go to town. Fun times.
Would copying your pet for one fight have been more powerful?
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Any build that's sacrificing a full level of spellcasting is going to have to make up for it somewhere. And any build that dips evangelist is going to be one level of spellcasting behind, whether they get early entry into it or not.
So while our theory druid doesn't get 6th level spells he does get a fun parlor trick. And whether he gets into evangelist at 6 or 4 only changes when he gets that parlor trick. Neither will have treebeards to play with before level 12.
I don't know if that's helping your case or mine, but it's worth mentioning.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Treants are wicked strong. I remember liveoaking up a frontline fighter for us one game when everybody was a caster. We just slapped a handful of buffs on the treant and let him go to town. Fun times.Would copying your pet for one fight have been more powerful?
It'd most certainly result in more DPR for that fight. Treants are solid, but two attacks/round and no magic items is pretty lackluster.
Unless we made a druid that specialized in treants so had a bunch of gear for them to use... hmm...
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Any build that's sacrificing a full level of spellcasting is going to have to make up for it somewhere. And any build that dips evangelist is going to be one level of spellcasting behind, whether they get early entry into it or not.
So while our theory druid doesn't get 6th level spells he does get a fun parlor trick. And whether he gets into evangelist at 6 or 4 only changes when he gets that parlor trick. Neither will have treebeards to play with before level 12.
I don't know if that's helping your case or mine, but it's worth mentioning.
What I think that translates to is "You always lose your free treant, but early entry gets you a consolation prize."
So that seems to help the "not broken" side (which I'm not yet claiming is "my" side, though it sort of looks like that's where I'm headed...)
Do we need a 100% fully statted-out pair of builds? That would take a while, and I'm not sure it would actually help anything.
Druid11 walks into a fight with a pet and a treant already guarding him, and 1/day he can spend his first action summoning an additional combatant if he so chooses.
Evangelist walks into a fight with just the cat, and 1/day he can spend his first action summoning an additional combatant if he so chooses.
Would exact numbers make much of a difference?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
well, make sure that the animal companion has all the druid's WBL on him. That way it's the strongest thing and doubling it will give 2 strongest things.
I don't see anything in Twin Fang stating that you get fresh gear, just that the companion itself gets copied.
|
well, make sure that the animal companion has all the druid's WBL on him. That way it's the strongest thing and doubling it will give 2 strongest things.I don't see anything in Twin Fang stating that you get fresh gear, just that the companion itself gets copied.
With you two discussing power differences on builds, and Walter mentioning blasters...I'd suggest a couple of build comparisons:
A wizard blaster vs an evangelist Rovagug wizard blaster.
and/or
A sorcerer blaster vs an evangelist Desna sorcerer blaster.
Those two have pretty strong 2nd divine boons. They would also make good comparisons - loses vs gains.
|
The wizard blaster is Admixture school. The evangelist wizard must be the scrying school and lost a level of wizard class features as well as a feat for Rovagug's boon.
The sorcerer blaster can be any racial option. The Desna sorcerer blaster is an aasimar and lost a level of sorcerer class features as well as a feat for chr bonus to SR checks.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
well, make sure that the animal companion has all the druid's WBL on him. That way it's the strongest thing and doubling it will give 2 strongest things.I don't see anything in Twin Fang stating that you get fresh gear, just that the companion itself gets copied.With you two discussing power differences on builds, and Walter mentioning blasters...I'd suggest a couple of build comparisons:
A wizard blaster vs an evangelist Rovagug wizard blaster.
Well, let's see...
The wizard blaster - if he's going to actually be good at blasting - has already dipped a level of draconic sorcerer (probably crossblooded with orc). Add in the 1-level delay for Evangelist, and at 11th level he has the spellcasting power of a 9th-level wizard. That means he has two daily slots of 5th-level spells, and nothing higher. So he's only got his cone of cold twice, and won't get chain lightning for 2 more levels. In return he gets +4 to the save for half, and treats the 1s on his d6s as 2s adds +1 damage per six levels.
I would never do it (at least, not for power's sake).
A sorcerer blaster vs an evangelist Desna sorcerer blaster.
vine boons. They would also make good comparisons - loses vs gains.
Gonna have to look up Desna later when I have more time. Or someone could post the boon.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
Personally, I think the best payoff for Evangelist is Cleric or Sorcerer since you are getting lots more skill points on classes that are normally extremely limited and better BAB in the Sorcerer case.
Wizards generally don't need the extra skill points because their Int is high enough, and Fighters would be more likely to multi class to Barbarian or Ranger if they ever felt they needed the skill points.
In terms of raw combat power, I haven't seen anything that looks more deadly than has already been mentioned -- Erastil's boon probably being the top one. I suppose if you had a Wild-Blooded Sylvan sorcerer that could get pretty hairy. There the feat cost is going to cause people to hesitate, especially if they were already using Boon Companion. Since they are Sorc, looking at 11th level you wouldn't lose a spell level. To be fair, you should probably do the comparison at 10th where you are losing one.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
I don't think we need to stat out builds unless something comes up that we agree is a powerful option and worth exploring in detail. Double header gaming session ended, so my mind is more fried than usual. More later.
PS: I don't think Twin Fang doubles gear, because that would be even sillier. But it's probably worth finding out if that question has been raised before and how it was answered.
|
|
If you're worried about an AC, the build to look at is the Hunter and not the Druid. They lose less by the 1 level spellcasting and their AC is going to be totally tricked out (sorry, couldn't resist :-) ).
You could invoke the whole "at that level, only full casters matter"
argument but I don't think that is a good way to convince Paizo.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Gonna have to look up Desna later when I have more time. Or someone could post the boon.A sorcerer blaster vs an evangelist Desna sorcerer blaster.
vine boons. They would also make good comparisons - loses vs gains.
Riiiight....
So, moving on, have we concluded that early entry into Evangelist isn't broken after all, or is there something else that needs to be shown?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
If you're worried about an AC, the build to look at is the Hunter and not the Druid. They lose less by the 1 level spellcasting and their AC is going to be totally tricked out (sorry, couldn't resist :-) ).
You could invoke the whole "at that level, only full casters matter"
argument but I don't think that is a good way to convince Paizo.
For the hunter, I think the thing to look at is not Evangelist versus Hunter, but Early versus Traditional.
It's already considered acceptable to make a hunter evangelist, so starting from there, let's look at what it takes to get in early.
The first option is to be a vanilla aasimar. For a class that's supposed to be making attack rolls (and with 3/4 BAB at that), picking aasimar is an issue, and one that you'll feel for your entire career for a payoff that only exists for the final level of your career. Would anyone ever actually choose to do that? Or more to the point, would anyone looking for the most powerful option ever do that?
The other option is dipping a level of scryer wizard. Please tell me I don't have to demonstrate why that would not be overpowered.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
1. "Overpowered" by whose standard?
By the standard of what an otherwise similar character is capable of at the same level. It's still subjective, but focused enough to be reasonably helpful. That's why I did a side-by-side earlier.
If we went by such a subjective standard, we could just as easily say that wizards should be banned once they reach level 9.
Hyperbole doesn't help things get figured out.
2. Substantively, what earlier access means for PFS is that the second tier divine boons see alot more play since they come in at level 9 rather than level 11. Since characters tend to be retired after level 11, we're looking at about 3 times the amount of use out of the tier 2 boons, and often at lower sub-tiers.
Valid point. Do you have one in mind that would be problematic to have at 9th level? We could certainly take a look at it.
More power at lower levels...what was the definition of power creep again?
Power creep is when a newer option is more powerful than a comparable (similar level, role, purpose, etc) existing option. It's a very important tool for balance in a game that keeps expanding.
3. We are also looking at earlier access to the spell-like abilities of the first tier divine boons. For example: hypothetical aasimar has a spell-like ability that counts as an arcane spell (daylight). He qualifies for evanglist at level 4, and at level 6 gains a 3rd level divine spell as a spell-like ability (e.g. Erastil-prayer). At 6th level, regardless of his aligned class or first three class levels, he now qualifies for feats and prestige classes as if he could cast 3rd level divine AND arcane spells. Even if there isn't an option that could exploit this now, writers for Paizo need to then be made aware of this exploit (and it is an exploit) to avoid granting abilities earlier than expected.
Your concern is that by entering Evangelist at 4th, a PC might qualify for some other PrC at 6th? Why is getting into a PrC at 6th something to be worried about? Within existing Pathfinder design conventions, what could possibly be published that would require 3rd-level spellcasting but would be intended for significantly later than character level 7th? That doesn't make sense as a concern, unless I'm overlooking something.
4. The history of the views on this topic seem to have been:
We don't want prestige classes to overshadow base classes (early decision by the designers).
We'll allow early access to prestige classes since they don't tend to be that strong.
Oh wow, a prestige class worth taking for mechanical benefits! (Common view expressed on the boards here when it was released.)
If you think that people crying "OP!" when something is first published is likely to be true, you've got more homework to do. I remember the reactions at first as well. And as usual, nothing came of it. Evangelist seems all but forgotten, like most material.
Spot the problem
You making claims without anything to base them on?
I think this thread is actually a good reason for Mike Brock to consider completely scrapping the idea allowing spell-like abilities to count as spell-casting ability for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes.
I think it's a good reminder that people overreact to perceived power and forget to step back and look at how reality stacks up.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
How bad would a Zen Archer Monk be if they went into this class at level 4? As a follower of Erastil at level 12 they would get Wis to damage with the longbow, getting wis to hit from level 3 in there class features.
For being an Evangelist at all, he's at -3 to hit at that level due to reduced BAB. That's about the same attack/damage trade ratio as Deadly Aim (which is in turn a worse payoff than two-handed Power Attack). That doesn't seem problematic to me.
|
|
How bad would a Zen Archer Monk be if they went into this class at level 4? As a follower of Erastil at level 12 they would get Wis to damage with the longbow, getting wis to hit from level 3 in there class features.For being an Evangelist at all, he's at -3 to hit at that level due to reduced BAB. That's about the same attack/damage trade ratio as Deadly Aim (which is in turn a worse payoff than two-handed Power Attack). That doesn't seem problematic to me.
Would he? Flurry of Blows keys off of Monk Level, not BaB, correct?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Would he? Flurry of Blows keys off of Monk Level, not BaB, correct?How bad would a Zen Archer Monk be if they went into this class at level 4? As a follower of Erastil at level 12 they would get Wis to damage with the longbow, getting wis to hit from level 3 in there class features.For being an Evangelist at all, he's at -3 to hit at that level due to reduced BAB. That's about the same attack/damage trade ratio as Deadly Aim (which is in turn a worse payoff than two-handed Power Attack). That doesn't seem problematic to me.
The Evangelist's Aligned Class ability says to count Evangelist as the base class to determine what class features you gain (come to think of it, does that mean that scaling class features in general don't scale?), and furthermore says that BAB (and HD and saves) are an exception to Aligned Class. So one way or the other, it sounds to me like you're stuck with Evangelist BAB.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Stuff1. I was concerned about feats more than prestige classes.
Okay, so you want to make deviations from PFRPG rules purely as a safety net against the possibility of future authors forgetting about them when writing feats? Seriously?
2. The basis is in the preceding lines of the post you responded to. You didn't spot it. Look at it again.
You said a lot of things, but none of them seemed to be clearly identifiable as a basis for claiming that there was an issue.
3. By your own definition of power creep, early access to the evangelist class would in most cases result in power creep because of the way aligned class works.
And that is okay. Power creep is only bad if the endpoint is too high. If the power crept from "acceptable" to "still acceptable", then the power creep is A-OK. If the power crept from "underpowered" to "acceptable", then the power creep was actively good and kudos to whoever implemented it. If the power crept from "underpowered" to "still underpowered", then we need MORE power creep.
The ONLY time we need to intervene against power creep is if the power is creeping from somewhere to "overpowered". And try as we might, we've not yet found any such examples.
So is early entry a form of power creep? Sure. Is that bad? Not that I've seen any evidence for, no.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Which would be more than off-set by the addition of the zen archer's wisdom to attack and damage. at that level, a decent zen archer's wisdom would be at least 24, meaning he trades 3 BAB for +7 to attack and damage per hit. Seems to me that there's a net gain on attack rolls and an absolute gain on damage. You've given it to him 2 levels earlier. Check your definition of power creep again.The Evangelist's Aligned Class ability says to count Evangelist as the base class to determine what class features you gain (come to think of it, does that mean that scaling class features in general don't scale?), and furthermore says that BAB (and HD and saves) are an exception to Aligned Class. So one way or the other, it sounds to me like you're stuck with Evangelist BAB.Would he? Flurry of Blows keys off of Monk Level, not BaB, correct?How bad would a Zen Archer Monk be if they went into this class at level 4? As a follower of Erastil at level 12 they would get Wis to damage with the longbow, getting wis to hit from level 3 in there class features.For being an Evangelist at all, he's at -3 to hit at that level due to reduced BAB. That's about the same attack/damage trade ratio as Deadly Aim (which is in turn a worse payoff than two-handed Power Attack). That doesn't seem problematic to me.
The zen archer was already using WIS on attack rolls, and you can't double-dip it. So no, it's a net loss on attack rolls in exchange for a gain on damage.