Concerns about Swashbuckler Power


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Actually, this thread reminds me.

How the hell come the Magus gets to poach swashbuckler stuff, but the rogue doesn't? I mean, rogue was supposed to be the swashbucklers to begin with (they even have an archetype for it and everything).


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Short answer? Rogues cant have nice things ;).

Long answer? The ACG had very limited space for core archetypes and the two that were added for the rogue are both above average. The magus and swashbuckler are mechanically quite close in that they are limited to the weapons. They also added Amateur Swashbuckler for everyone. Down the line I wouldn't be surprised to see a rogue archetype that trades sneak attack dice for deeds, for example.


Why trade the SA away? Magus doesn't trade away spellstrike, nor does Daring champion his challenge damage. Just copy flamboyant arcana and arcane deeds as rogue talents (without the pool stuff) and you are basically done. Make finesse rogue and amateur swashbuckler a pre-req maybe. Done.

Liberty's Edge

I saw a level 7 swashbuckler in play, it did... okay. Wasn't great but wasn't terrible and did acceptable damage. I felt like our Inquisitor who was two-handing (and didn't have an iterative) was keeping up without much issue. It did have some issues with saves (besides reflex).

I don't think it's broken by any means and really could use some non swift/immediate action dependent abilities.

The party/reposte is cool (I also have it on my Magus which is situationally useful) but the parry ate Panache like crazy.


I am kind of curious how well a Swashbuckler would do for a Harpooner? I of course mean using the Stormwrecked or Kuo-toa Harpoon which were much more powerful then PF's Harpoon.

Liberty's Edge

tesuji2 wrote:

Hello Everyone,nice to meet you all. I have been playing pathfinder for over a year now and I frequent the message boards but this is my first post. I was hoping someone could help me with an issue.

I was looking through the advanced class guide and I really like the Swashbuckler class. I have wanted to play a class like this ever since I saw the duelist prestige class but my GM and I both have some concerns about how powerful the Swashbuckler is. My GM thinks the Swashbuckler is more powerful then the classes in the Core Rule-book and APG. He says he would let me play the class if we changed the hit die to d8 and the BAB to 3/4. I am uncertain myself and we would both like get a better feel for the Swashbuckler.

I was hoping Some of you could give your opinions about the class. Thank you very much for your help :)

(Normally Allowed book list: Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment -- with a few banned things from those) (Synthesis summoners for examples)

Your DM is correct. Swashbuckler is broken.

The class should still be fully playable with his nerfs in place.


Unless you're allowing for the Cape of Feinting trick, which is easily Rule 0'd into line, I have a really hard time imagining how someone's being "broken" with a Swashbuckler unless you've never seen someone land a good full attack routine before.


Charisma of Fun wrote:


1 - Do the applied mechanics serve to advance the intended flavor of the role.
2 - Is the class fun to play.

Is the intended flavor of a swashbuckler to stand still and full attack? If so, nailed it.

I always thought them as jumping off tables, swinging on chandeliers, dancing around opponents. NOPE stand still and full attack, if they are 10 feat away you are hosed


Well, let's be fair, you're no proper fencer without Lunge, but there is a disappointing lack of rewards for jumping off of stuff and swinging on things while fighting built into the class.

Liberty's Edge

Feral wrote:
tesuji2 wrote:

Hello Everyone,nice to meet you all. I have been playing pathfinder for over a year now and I frequent the message boards but this is my first post. I was hoping someone could help me with an issue.

I was looking through the advanced class guide and I really like the Swashbuckler class. I have wanted to play a class like this ever since I saw the duelist prestige class but my GM and I both have some concerns about how powerful the Swashbuckler is. My GM thinks the Swashbuckler is more powerful then the classes in the Core Rule-book and APG. He says he would let me play the class if we changed the hit die to d8 and the BAB to 3/4. I am uncertain myself and we would both like get a better feel for the Swashbuckler.

I was hoping Some of you could give your opinions about the class. Thank you very much for your help :)

(Normally Allowed book list: Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment -- with a few banned things from those) (Synthesis summoners for examples)

Your DM is correct. Swashbuckler is broken.

The class should still be fully playable with his nerfs in place.

What makes you think it's broken? Just curious.


DinosaursOnIce wrote:
Feral wrote:
tesuji2 wrote:

Hello Everyone,nice to meet you all. I have been playing pathfinder for over a year now and I frequent the message boards but this is my first post. I was hoping someone could help me with an issue.

I was looking through the advanced class guide and I really like the Swashbuckler class. I have wanted to play a class like this ever since I saw the duelist prestige class but my GM and I both have some concerns about how powerful the Swashbuckler is. My GM thinks the Swashbuckler is more powerful then the classes in the Core Rule-book and APG. He says he would let me play the class if we changed the hit die to d8 and the BAB to 3/4. I am uncertain myself and we would both like get a better feel for the Swashbuckler.

I was hoping Some of you could give your opinions about the class. Thank you very much for your help :)

(Normally Allowed book list: Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment -- with a few banned things from those) (Synthesis summoners for examples)

Your DM is correct. Swashbuckler is broken.

The class should still be fully playable with his nerfs in place.

What makes you think it's broken? Just curious.

At first I thought he was being sarcastic, then I reread his comment. I am curious about this also.


LoneKnave wrote:
Why trade the SA away? Magus doesn't trade away spellstrike, nor does Daring champion his challenge damage. Just copy flamboyant arcana and arcane deeds as rogue talents (without the pool stuff) and you are basically done. Make finesse rogue and amateur swashbuckler a pre-req maybe. Done.

The rogue isn't really relevant to the topic, so in order to keep the thread on track I'll send you a PM. :)


CWheezy wrote:

Is the intended flavor of a swashbuckler to stand still and full attack? If so, nailed it.

I always thought them as jumping off tables

Derring-do

Quote:
swinging on chandeliers

Derring-Do

Quote:
dancing around opponents.

Swashbuckler's Grace, Dodging Panache, and Derring-Do.

Quote:
NOPE stand still and full attack, if they are 10 feat away you are hosed

For one, Swashbucklers are less reliant on full-attacks than TWF builds are. Unless you are level 11+ you still get most of your damage with just a standard action. Secondly, Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair. Thirdly, Quick Runner's Shirt.


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RumpinRufus wrote:
Derring-do

Derring-do eats panache. Most Swashbucklers want to use their limited supply of panache in combat for things that are, y'know, beneficial. Ideally using Derring-do in combat should in some (non-abusive) way add panache, not drain it. That way you have swashbucklers looking all over for ways to enter combat on a chandelier. :)


Can a Swashbuckler take Signature Deed?

Liberty's Edge

I don't think so.

It specifically calls out needing both an 11th level in Gunslinger and the Grit class feature.


They can - Panache counts as grit and vice versa. They reference Signature Deed in the text for Precise Strike, specifically stating Signature Deed is not an option for that specific deed.

I believe there is a sidebar in the ACG explaining how multiple inspiration and grit pools interact.


Panache counts as Grit for qualifying for feats, but Swashbuckler does not count as Gunslinger by RAW. So, Signature Deed is not currently available for Swashbucklers.

RAI is almost certainly that Swashbucklers should be allowed Signature Deed, as several of their abilities mention it. But, pending errata, it's off-limits unless you're also a high-level gunslinger.


RumpinRufus wrote:


For one, Swashbucklers are less reliant on full-attacks than TWF builds are. Unless you are level 11+ you still get most of your damage with just a standard action. Secondly, Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair. Thirdly, Quick Runner's Shirt.

Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(


Also I laughed at a once a day item being your solution.

Maybe if you buy 15 of them and wear them all at once.


CWheezy wrote:
Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(

Bonuses to Acrobatics checks help you be a mobile fighter.

CWheezy wrote:

Also I laughed at a once a day item being your solution.

Maybe if you buy 15 of them and wear them all at once.

Do you really need to do this that many times in a single combat? Because you don't need to wear them all at once, just do a quick wardrobe change between fights. Or, if your GM is sensible he'll let you buy one with multiple uses per day instead.


The Blue Scarf is a decent item and helps the swashbuckler avoid his reach problem(though I wish it didn't take a swift action), but arguing that the quick runner's shirt is uniquely beneficial for swashbuckler mobility is silly.

The shirt is equally available to all classes and does nothing to make the swashbuckler more mobile than a typical tower-shield toting full plate fighter, as long as they shop at the same tailor.


He's saying "I want the Swashbuckler to be able to do THIS." I'm telling how he can do THIS. Whether or not another class can do the thing he wants is not really relevant.

edit: and Blue Scarf is better than decent, it's great. Combine it with Dodging Panache to never take another full-attack from anyone without reach.


RumpinRufus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(

Bonuses to Acrobatics checks help you be a mobile fighter.

???

This is like saying skill focus acrobatics helps you be a mobile fighter


RumpinRufus wrote:
He's saying "I want the Swashbuckler to be able to do THIS." I'm telling how he can do THIS. Whether or not another class can do the thing he wants is not really relevant.

Not really... He's saying "the iconic swashbuckler should be able to do this totally iconic swashbuckler thing". Your reply is "if you spend your money on this magical item that's available to everyone, the swashbuckler can do that totally iconic swashbuckler thing". The problem with that is that the mobility is not provided by the swashbuckler, but by the item. Aka the Swashbuckler is no better at the iconic swashbucklery thing than Joe fighter.

It's roughly similar to arguing that a fighter with zero class features is totally fine because he can buy a magical sword and a +str belt that will give him great attack bonuses.

Edit: Actually, a better analogy might be to design a ranger without the hunter's bond class feature and then argue that the ranger makes for a great pet class because he can take the boon companion feat chain. While absolutely true, it does absolutely nothing to prove that the theoretical ranger design was any better at using animal companions than any other class.


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RumpinRufus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(
Bonuses to Acrobatics checks help you be a mobile fighter.

That really means nothing when you are still awful if you move and Swashbuckler is just like any other martial without Pounce or similar ability.


Swashbuckler's Grace allows you to move at full speed during an acrobatics check. This means you can move the full 30 foot movement speed without the DC 10 increase.

Quote:
When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10

sorry but that is pretty handy to be able to move pretty far without worrying about making an additional 10 on the check.

It seems more like you guys wanted an ability that expanded the range of a five foot step action from 5 to 10 or even 15 feet without actually using up his Full Attack option. Am I close on that one?


1) Is this whole thing about why swashbucklers can't pounce? Because I've watched a lot of swashbuckler movies, and I don't ever remember seeing a swashbuckler "pounce". You know what there is a lot of? Fencing. As in, the kind where you are rarely ever more than 5 ft. from your opponent. I don't see pouncing as iconic.

If anything, an argument could be made they should get an in-class way to charge through difficult terrain instead of relying on the Green Glove Swordmaster's Flair. But, that's a cheap item anyway and works off panache.

2) How is the swashbuckler "awful" when he doesn't get a full-attack?


chaoseffect wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Nothing in derring do lets them be a mobile fighter :(
Bonuses to Acrobatics checks help you be a mobile fighter.
That really means nothing when you are still awful if you move and Swashbuckler is just like any other martial without Pounce or similar ability.

I am sorry explain how the Swashbuckler is awful if you move? Are you meaning because then it can't full attack? I think that just means your more inclined to want to play the fighter with the giant great sword that no human could possibly wield swinging with an insanely high str. That is not the only way to fight in D&D or PF in this case.

You kind of sound like those guys of Gamers the Dorkness Rising when the girl shows up with the crit fisher fighter.


To me... Swashbucklers are way better off as a move and hit than any other martial class tha tcomes to mind.. Though it sucks they can't use reach very easily--baring a 3 level dip for one handed polearm.
but they can get pretty good damage off one hit, they can avoid quite a lot of damage if you have enough of a pool--which honestly I think you should but thats just my thought- You can sustain this pretty well with a decent pool amount and a critical style weapon.
hell I have a skillish swashbuckler sets up with inspiried swash that is just amusing as hell. I'm gonna make a flying dagger sometime (though I'll ask to add kukri to the list of daggers.. it's bizzare to me it wasn't)
They are not at all super crazy. But in the realm of hit and run, I personally find them pretty strong. It just depends on how you build them. The only time I find them better than other martials is when your building a hit and move kinda fellow. Otherwise, they're like others mentioned, a bit lack luster compared to the heavy martials.

The main disconnect is comparing damage from hit and run sorta stuff to full attack damage. They will never compare honestly. They're very much different functions.


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Swashbuckler works as your typical stand-still-or-suck BSF... And that's about it.

They fail to live up to their class description (really, try to 'dart in and out of combat" and see how well you fare) and are barely more agile than a Fighter with Weapon Finesse.

Slashing Grace is needlessly restrictive and taxing, and to add insult to the injury, it doesn't even work with rapiers, daggers or any light weapon.

Their saves suck and "Charmed Life" is a poor band-aid.

Pretty much all of the class' mechanics are needlessly complicated, overly situational or basically useless ("Spend Panache to Roll an additional 1d6 on your next skill check"... Truly amazing... -.-')

Pretty much all feedback given during playtest was ignored. And that resulted in an underwhelming dip class that is the greatest example of wasted opportunity in Pathfinder.


There are some good reasons why the Swashbuckler is adequate, especially if you want to achieve a certain sense of style and don't mind sacrificing raw output to achieve it. Adequate and overpowered are very different things though. I still don't understand why the OP's DM thinks the class needs a nerf.


Eh... Swashbuckler is not even in the top 3 best swashbuckling classes in the game...

- Dervish Dancer Bard fills the character archetype much better.
- Daring Champion Cavalier is pretty much Swashbuckler++ (That said, outperforming SBs isn't particularly impressive...)
- A single level of SB (or daring champion Cavalier) followed by 19 of Urban Barbarian is also much better.

There is little to no reason to grab more than 3 levels in SB.

It's not an awful class, but it's a good one either... It's just another victim of stand-still-or-suck syndrome with awful saves, okay-ish class features and very little out-of-combat utility.


Lemmy wrote:

Swashbuckler works as your typical stand-still-or-suck BSF... And that's about it.

They fail to live up to their class description (really, try to 'dart in and out of combat" and see how well you fare) and are barely more agile than a Fighter with Weapon Finesse.

Slashing Grace is needlessly restrictive and taxing, and to add insult to the injury, it doesn't even work with rapiers, daggers or any light weapon.

Their saves suck and "Charmed Life" is a poor band-aid.

Pretty much all of the class' mechanics are needlessly complicated, overly situational or basically useless ("Spend Panache to Roll an additional 1d6 on your next skill check"... Truly amazing... -.-')

Pretty much all feedback given during playtest was ignored. And that resulted in an underwhelming dip class that is the greatest example of wasted opportunity in Pathfinder.

I am sorry I am still not seeing the Stand still aspect.

It seems your comparing damage output not anything else.

Dark Archive

Any marginally well built two handed Barbarian or Fighter is going to do more damage across a larger variety of combat situations than a Swashbuckler. Power attack with a two handed weapon is the best melee damage option in Pathfinder - the Swashbuckler class is built to stay on the same level playing field with those builds, but it certainly doesn't surpass them.

The Swashbuckler may have a few more options in combat, but they aren't significantly better than either a Fighter or a Barbarian in combat.

Against targets where they cannot use precision damage, the Swashbuckler is going to be screwed, much like a Rogue.

Outside of combat, a Swashbuckler probably has a few more skills available to chose from, but I would say they are on par with Barbarians and Lore Warden Fighters in that regard, and still behind a Ranger or Slayer.


Mr Babadook wrote:

I am sorry I am still not seeing the Stand still aspect.

It seems your comparing damage output not anything else.

Nah... Swashbucklers have decent damage output. In fact, one of my beefs with the class is that it has barely more than that.

They aren't significantly more mobile than any martial with ranks in Acrobatics (Derring-Do is pathetic), they aren't particularly good at combat maneuvers and they aren't particularly good out of combat...

They are just a BSF with Weapon Finesse.

Dark Archive

Lemmy wrote:

Eh... Swashbuckler is not even in the top 3 best swashbuckling classes in the game...

- Dervish Dancer Bard fills the character archetype much better.
- Daring Champion Cavalier is pretty much Swashbuckler++ (That said, outperforming SBs isn't particularly impressive...)
- A single level of SB (or daring champion Cavalier) followed by 19 of Urban Barbarian is also much better.

There is little to no reason to grab more than 3 levels in SB.

It's not an awful class, but it's a good one either... It's just another victim of stand-still-or-suck syndrome with awful saves, okay-ish class features and very little out-of-combat utility.

IMO 5 levels is a better place to stop than 3: Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are certainly worth two more levels.


I don't know that stacking d6 from derring do is pretty nice, if a chance game. Being able to move at full speed on Acrobatic checks is also pretty nice.

I do agree they are not great but hardly as crappy as everyone is suggesting.


Argus The Slayer wrote:
IMO 5 levels is a better place to stop than 3: Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are certainly worth two more levels.

I see your point. Personally, I never really cared about the WF feat chain... It's extremely boring and not nearly as effective as people seem to think it is, IMO.


Mr Babadook wrote:

I don't know that stacking d6 from derring do is pretty nice, if a chance game. Being able to move at full speed on Acrobatic checks is also pretty nice.

I do agree they are not great but hardly as crappy as everyone is suggesting.

The additional d6 really sucks. Spend one Panache and you get... Unless the SB gets really lucky and rolls a couple d6, it will likely not make much of a difference... And rolling 1~3 is basically a waste of Panache.

Swashbuckler's Grace basically removes a penalty hat shouldn't even exist in the first place... But even though it does, it won't make any difference 90% of the time.

Most deeds are either pretty minor or way too situational. There are some good ones, of course, just not enough to make the class excel at the role it's supposed to excel...

Dark Archive

Lemmy wrote:
Argus The Slayer wrote:
IMO 5 levels is a better place to stop than 3: Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are certainly worth two more levels.
I see your point. Personally, I never really cared about the WF feat chain... It's extremely boring and not nearly as effective as people seem to think it is, IMO.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are what separate a fighter from the other melee classes, like an always-on rage, or favored enemy bonus that works against every opponent.

5th level Swashbuckler also brings Swash Improved Critical online, which is a pretty big bonus to damage, as well as recharging panache.


Argus The Slayer wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Argus The Slayer wrote:
IMO 5 levels is a better place to stop than 3: Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are certainly worth two more levels.
I see your point. Personally, I never really cared about the WF feat chain... It's extremely boring and not nearly as effective as people seem to think it is, IMO.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are what separate a fighter from the other melee classes, like an always-on rage, or favored enemy bonus that works against every opponent.

5th level Swashbuckler also brings Swash Improved Critical online, which is a pretty big bonus to damage, as well as recharging panache.

Well... Fighters are pretty underwhelming in combat. They would be really good if combat were all about punching a stationary sandbag in a enclosed room, but since that's not the case...

Still... I don't doubt SBs have good DPR (in fact, that's pretty much all they have). I'd just don't think the difference in damage output is all that great. I'd rather have an additional Rage Power than Weapon Specialization. And I don't mind waiting a bit more for Improved Critical if that means I can get Pounce earlier.


I am sorry but you are confusing me. In one breath you state that SB have good damage output, or at least decent and then in the next comment on how you would rather be able to pounce so that you can full attack (which the whole point is more damage)

So lets say we get pounce, or our own version of the Pummeling Style/Charge combo. What does that do for a Swashbuckler other then allow more damage. Which you say is fine as is.

None of that would make them better mobile fighters.

And honestly with Avenger Archetype its so weirdly worded it is actually insanely weird.

Greater Charmed Life which allows you to use an immediate action to add Cha to Ac... with no duration listed.

Avenger's Target... which at level 20 with a move action allows you a +8 to his and damage as well as a +4 to Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival.
So basically rips off the Slayer.


Mr Babadook wrote:

I am sorry but you are confusing me. In one breath you state that SB have good damage output, or at least decent and then in the next comment on how you would rather be able to pounce so that you can full attack (which the whole point is more damage)

So lets say we get pounce, or our own version of the Pummeling Style/Charge combo. What does that do for a Swashbuckler other then allow more damage. Which you say is fine as is.

It would allow them to move and still be effective, rather than lose most of their damage for daring to move 10ft. They would actually be able to "dart in and out of combat".

Anyone can move. When I say "mobile" I mean a character that can move around without gimping himself. Also, Barbarians can have both flight and Pounce. Plus a lot of other cool tricks, like breaking magic.

Right now, Swashbucklers have no incentive to move more than 5ft in a fight, unless of course, they absolutely have to. They are not particularly good at navigating the battlefield... They are just slightly better some of the other martial classes (those bonuses to Acrobatics will be insignificant most of the time).

Mr Babadook wrote:
Greater Charmed Life which allows you to use an immediate action to add Cha to Ac... with no duration listed.

AFAIK, Charmed Life lasts for a single attack. Or maybe 'til the start of your next turn... I don't know, that archetype is really poorly written.

Swashbucklers are not horrible or non-functional... But they do fail to live up to their class description. They are BSFs with Weapon Finesse. They can stand still and full attack just fine, but little more than that... I expected more from a class named "Swashbuckler".


Zwordsman wrote:
To me... Swashbucklers are way better off as a move and hit than any other martial class tha tcomes to mind..

Barbarians pounce, Kineticists use vital strike, Druids pound and vital strike depending on which they prefer. Cricket Spirit Mediums make Spring Attack actually useful.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a 12th level Monk of the Four Winds can get super mobile with Slow Time+Vital Strike.


Lemmy wrote:
Mr Babadook wrote:

I am sorry but you are confusing me. In one breath you state that SB have good damage output, or at least decent and then in the next comment on how you would rather be able to pounce so that you can full attack (which the whole point is more damage)

So lets say we get pounce, or our own version of the Pummeling Style/Charge combo. What does that do for a Swashbuckler other then allow more damage. Which you say is fine as is.

It would allow them to move and still be effective, rather than lose most of their damage for daring to move 10ft. They would actually be able to "dart in and out of combat".

Anyone can move. When I say "mobile" I mean a character that can move around without gimping himself. Also, Barbarians can have both flight and Pounce. Plus a lot of other cool tricks, like breaking magic.

Right now, Swashbucklers have no incentive to move more than 5ft in a fight, unless of course, they absolutely have to. They are not particularly good at navigating the battlefield... They are just slightly better some of the other martial classes (those bonuses to Acrobatics will be insignificant most of the time).

Mr Babadook wrote:
Greater Charmed Life which allows you to use an immediate action to add Cha to Ac... with no duration listed.

AFAIK, Charmed Life lasts for a single attack. Or maybe 'til the start of your next turn... I don't know, that archetype is really poorly written.

Swashbucklers are not horrible or non-functional... But they do fail to live up to their class description. They are BSFs with Weapon Finesse. They can stand still and full attack just fine, but little more than that... I expected more from a class named "Swashbuckler".

I am just saying it does not add the duration as it does with Charmed Life.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
To me... Swashbucklers are way better off as a move and hit than any other martial class tha tcomes to mind..

Barbarians pounce, Kineticists use vital strike, Druids pound and vital strike depending on which they prefer. Cricket Spirit Mediums make Spring Attack actually useful.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a 12th level Monk of the Four Winds can get super mobile with Slow Time+Vital Strike.

And Rangers and Paladin have spells like Grace, Burst of Speed, Litany of Sloth, Longstrider, Tree Stride and Freedom of Movement,


Mr Babadook wrote:
I am just saying it does not add the duration as it does with Charmed Life.

Greater Charmed Life (Ex): At 4th level, the mysterious avenger gains three extra uses of charmed life. As an immediate action, she can expend one use of charmed life to gain a bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). She must choose to do this before the attack roll is made against her.

It seems pretty obvious that it's intended to only apply against one attack... And it must be used before the attack roll is made, so if the opponent would have missed anyway, you just wasted Panache.

...But yes, it's a poorly written ability.

Anyway, I think I said enough about why I think SBs are a wasted opportunity. I'll stop badmouthing the poor sods.


Lemmy wrote:
Mr Babadook wrote:
I am just saying it does not add the duration as it does with Charmed Life.

Greater Charmed Life (Ex): At 4th level, the mysterious avenger gains three extra uses of charmed life. As an immediate action, she can expend one use of charmed life to gain a bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). She must choose to do this before the attack roll is made against her.

It seems pretty obvious that it's intended to only apply against one attack. And it must be used before the attack roll is made, so if the opponent would have missed anyway, you just wasted Panache.

...But yes, it's a poorly written ability.

It is poorly written and of course it most likely was going to be a one round action. But the way it is laid out.. it has no listed duration so do it once.. and you have it seemingly forever.

Shadow Lodge

In case anyone is thinking what I'm thinking, if you want to play a class that is mobile and still effective all the time, play 4e. Or make your own game. Personally, I've noticed that swashbucklers have a few flaws, but I like them a lot. Not the most powerful, but with a slough of utility and other abilities.
Just out of curiosity, my PFS swashbuckler is nearing level 5. I'm getting concerned about his middling-high Fortitude and Will saves, but I also want Combat Reflexes. Given my 4 panache, I only Parry during the last fight most of the time. It's actually starting to seem less necessary as I type, that Combat Reflexes.

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