Darkness spell - how to throw a tarp or sheet over it?


Rules Questions


In the spell description "If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed."

How would a PC go about doing this? My PC has darkvision but only one other party member does. We are doing an extended dungeon crawl and will/have run into creatures that cast this spell. Would it be worth carrying a tarp to throw over the caster(as they always seem to be carrying the object the spell is cast on with them)? Does the object "shine" with darkness and therefore could be pinpointed? Would the tarp be treated as a net?


That line is more about saying you can cast the spell and cover the object so that you can have darkness running and then uncover it to surprise people. It less about using it offensively, though you technically still can.

Keep in mind that at best the mechanics might work like making an attack with a net. There aren't any specific about how to do what you're asking, but calling a tarp a net (for mechanics) makes sense. After that you would target either the object or the person holding the object and try to snare them in it.

In general, a more effective method is going to be having someone with a heightened continual flame spell on something that the party carries around. A continual flame spell heightened to a 4th level spell will stop even deeper darkness unless heightened (which your opponents will typically not do).

Having a heightened continual flame spell cast on something would cost 330 gp based on the spell casting services section of the CRB.

7th caster level * 4 th level spell * 10 = 280 gp + 50 gp for material component = 330 gp.


Hmmm a scroll isn't a bad idea....What about the "shine" part...maybe the object touched could be gotten away from the caster.


I'm not talking about a scroll.

I'm talking about paying a spell caster and he casts heightened continual flame on your hat. And now your hat emits light like a torch (20ft normal light, 40ft dim light) permanently. And, unless a darkness spell is heightened to beat it, not even deeper darkness can get rid of this pool of light.

And what do you mean the "shine" part? Are you asking if the object visibly radiates darkness? Probably not that you can tell. It does in the sense that the object emits the darkness and if you wrapped it up the dark would no longer appear. But it doesn't shine in the way light comes from a light bulb, I think. It's more like the way radios emit an electromagnetic field. There is something coming from the radio, but it's not part of the visible light spectrum so you can't see it. Darkness* also wouldn't be part of the visible light spectrum so you shouldn't be able to see it either. Not even with darkvision I don't think.

*Technically darkness is just an abscence of light so it's hard to understand how the spell creates darkness, except Magic™.


Claxon wrote:
*Technically darkness is just an abscence of light so it's hard to understand how the spell creates darkness, except Magic™.

It's easier if you think of it as anti-light


kikidmonkey wrote:
Claxon wrote:
*Technically darkness is just an abscence of light so it's hard to understand how the spell creates darkness, except Magic™.
It's easier if you think of it as anti-light

Sure, but thats still magic as nothing in the universe is "anti-light". Some things absorb light more than others, but nothing emits darkness, so there is not a real world analog.

The whole point for the OP I think is whether he can identify the object that has darkness cast upon it. For me, I think the answer is mostly no. However, there isn't anything explicitly written anywhere about it.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
kikidmonkey wrote:
Claxon wrote:
*Technically darkness is just an abscence of light so it's hard to understand how the spell creates darkness, except Magic™.
It's easier if you think of it as anti-light
Sure, but thats still magic as nothing in the universe is "anti-light". Some things absorb light more than others, but nothing emits darkness, so there is not a real world analog.

It's an evocation that light cannot pierce. The spell annihilates photons.

I agree that it's going to be impossible to identify the source of the spell, though.


Serum wrote:
Claxon wrote:
kikidmonkey wrote:
Claxon wrote:
*Technically darkness is just an abscence of light so it's hard to understand how the spell creates darkness, except Magic™.
It's easier if you think of it as anti-light
Sure, but thats still magic as nothing in the universe is "anti-light". Some things absorb light more than others, but nothing emits darkness, so there is not a real world analog.

It's an evocation that light cannot pierce. The spell annihilates photons.

I agree that it's going to be impossible to identify the source of the spell, though.

can the person trying to identify the object see it (darkvision or some other ability)? if yes, then there is no reason to think that they cant identify it as the source.


kikidmonkey wrote:
can the person trying to identify the object see it (darkvision or some other ability)? if yes, then there is no reason to think that they cant identify it as the source.

There is in fact. It depends on whether you view darkness as emitted in the same way light is.

If darkness is emitted in the same way light is, imagine a flashlight in the dark, but in reverse then you could find the object.

If however you view it something like light destroying anti-photons, or something that is not in the visible spectrum of light, then you would not see it because there is nothing to see. Not even if you can see in the dark. Which is how I view it.

It completely depends on whether you think darkness is emitted.

Of course, if you can see in the dark and you can observe where the radius of darkness extends and understand how the spell funcitons then you could find the "center" of it and look for objects that you think might be emitting it. But, if there are multiple objects, or something in a creatures possession it's unlikely to help you.


Claxon wrote:
Of course, if you can see in the dark and you can observe where the radius of darkness extends and understand how the spell funcitons then you could find the "center" of it and look for objects that you think might be emitting it. But, if there are multiple objects, or something in a creatures possession it's unlikely to help you.

Even knowing the origin square is helpful, as it gives a possible source to either dispel, cast light on/near, or to kill whoever is holding the source, which will either keep the darkness from moving, hopefully providing a means of ignoring the darkness, or force an enemy to reveal the source by trying to retrieve it.


kikidmonkey wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Of course, if you can see in the dark and you can observe where the radius of darkness extends and understand how the spell funcitons then you could find the "center" of it and look for objects that you think might be emitting it. But, if there are multiple objects, or something in a creatures possession it's unlikely to help you.
Even knowing the origin square is helpful, as it gives a possible source to either dispel, cast light on/near, or to kill whoever is holding the source, which will either keep the darkness from moving, hopefully providing a means of ignoring the darkness, or force an enemy to reveal the source by trying to retrieve it.

True, but that has nothing to do with the object itself being visibly discernable but rather understanding magic and knowing that the effect is centered on something.

Also, casting light wont actually do any good because the darkness spell requires magical light to be cast from a spell of higher level.

This is why I mentioned using a heightened continual flame. It makes it a 4th level spell. The only way to defeat it with darkness or deeper darkness is to have a heightened darkness/deeper darkness.


sorry, when i said "light" i meant "a relevant light spell"


kikidmonkey wrote:
sorry, when i said "light" i meant "a relevant light spell"

Fair enough, understandably confusing.

Grand Lodge

Is it PFS legal to get a heightened continual flame spell cast on something?

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claudekennilol wrote:
Is it PFS legal to get a heightened continual flame spell cast on something?

Yes, but only from a fellow PC (or yourself). You can't purchase NPC spellcasting services with metamagic applied.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

My favorite old-school tactic with both light-type and darkness-type spells cast on a small object is, after casting said spell, to coat said object in clay or mud and allow it to dry. The emanation of the spell is blocked, but the fragile nature of the clay or dried mud allows you to toss it against a hard surface or even crumble it off with your hands and unleash the spell effect.


Sooo...there are few spell(scroll or otherwise) options for combating deeper darkness...but some for just darkness. Are there ways of "seeing" without using sight? I play a bard(dirge bard archetype) so i could get a scroll of echolocation...but that would cost 1125 gold!!


Anything that will defeat deeper darkness should also defeat regular darkness.

Echolocation, boots of termorsense, and probably a myraid of other ways to locate an enemy. If that's what you're after.

Shadow Lodge

(or just an oil of daylight)


Oil of daylight wouldn't work against Deeper Darkness (I believe), but it would work adequately against Darkness.


Claxon wrote:
Oil of daylight wouldn't work against Deeper Darkness (I believe), but it would work adequately against Darkness.

Daylight does the same thing against either. It's not clear exactly what that is.

It negates the darkness, rather than raising the light level within it, so the "light spells must be higher level" limitation doesn't apply.


thejeff wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Oil of daylight wouldn't work against Deeper Darkness (I believe), but it would work adequately against Darkness.

Daylight does the same thing against either. It's not clear exactly what that is.

It negates the darkness, rather than raising the light level within it, so the "light spells must be higher level" limitation doesn't apply.

Yeah, the writing of those spells is messy


I'm just going to buy a scroll of "daylight", which is a 3rd level spell(375gp). So against darkness it should "overpower" it in the overlapping area? Or does it dispel(turn off) the darkness altogether if its area includes the object with darkness cast on it?

I believe against deeper darkness it would return the overlapping areas to normal light conditions as they are both 3rd level spells.


Meager Rolmug wrote:

I'm just going to buy a scroll of "daylight", which is a 3rd level spell(375gp). So against darkness it should "overpower" it in the overlapping area? Or does it dispel(turn off) the darkness altogether if its area includes the object with darkness cast on it?

I believe against deeper darkness it would return the overlapping areas to normal light conditions as they are both 3rd level spells.

The spell level of Daylight is irrelevant.

Quote:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Ask your GM exactly what that means. Spell level definitely has no effect though.

Grand Lodge

You should read this post

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpgw?A-Practical-Guide-to-Light-and-Darkness#1

But back to the original question. If someone has cast darkness (or deeper darkness) on themselves, is it valid to throw a blanket on them to cover up the darkness?

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claudekennilol wrote:

You should read this post

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpgw?A-Practical-Guide-to-Light-and-Darkness#1

I second this suggestion. ;)

Quote:
But back to the original question. If someone has cast darkness (or deeper darkness) on themselves, is it valid to throw a blanket on them to cover up the darkness?

The rules assume each PC to be a fully-functional human person, capable of doing not only what the rules explicitly spell out, but also anything that a healthy, unhindered person could reasonably be expected to do.

Any PC is physically capable of attempting to throw a blanket over someone/something. The GM will have to decide how exactly to resolve that action, but it can be done, in the same way that any PC is physically capable of attempting to climb any surface even if it's not one of the example surfaces listed in the Climb skill description.

And as for whether or not it will work, the spell explicitly states that a lightproof covering blocks the effect, so if you can manage to reach that condition, you're golden.


Meager Rolmug wrote:

I'm just going to buy a scroll of "daylight", which is a 3rd level spell(375gp). So against darkness it should "overpower" it in the overlapping area? Or does it dispel(turn off) the darkness altogether if its area includes the object with darkness cast on it?

I believe against deeper darkness it would return the overlapping areas to normal light conditions as they are both 3rd level spells.

If you're in deeper darkness and can not see, how will read a scroll?

Oils are a little easier to do in total darkness, though it costs twice as much as the scroll (750g).

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Sniggevert wrote:
If you're in deeper darkness and can not see, how will read a scroll?

You dismiss the shrink item spell that you cast on your teepee-turned-wizard-hat a couple days earlier, letting it fall down around you and block the effect of the DD. Since you've also cast continual flame on the inside of the teepee/hat, you have a cozy little reading room. When finished, step out of the teepee with your active daylight.

;)


Hmmm...so my PC throws the blanket over himself and uses the scroll(remember he has darkvision), than uncovers himself and has someone else in the party light a torch if the ambient light is too low for the humans in the party. Thats 2 1/2 rounds of actions...
Round 1)take out blanket(in handy haversack)-move Throw over self-move
round 2)take out scroll-move Complete spell-standard
round 3)throw off blanket-move Do whatever

Still, its a whole lot better than trying to handle the bad guys with only me and one other PC(we have six in the party)being able to see. If its just a darkness spell, i could evaluate the situation first(since he can see in that) and determine weather using the scroll is really needed. If the scroll is already used...well we can than still try the blanket trick on the darkness source...still unclear as to weather identifying that source would be feasible..but i suppose i could always guess. Also there is the spell "DISCOVERY TORCH" which would work against darkness(and NOT deeper darkness) if cast by a cleric(spell level 3) but not if cast by a bard or inquisitor(both spell level 2). That means my bard COULD learn that spell and buy a rod of lesser heighten...if there were enough other uses for the rod...but at that point learning daylight(level 3) would probably make more sense.

by the way i'm not able to connect to the link provided...but i know what you are referring to and was able to find in via another route.

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