Metamagic Stacking Calculation


Rules Questions


Hey all, I looked around a bit but couldn't find any specifics on how to stack multiple metamagic feats. I've got a player who regularly casts an empowered, intensified shocking grasp and says it's 15d6, or 30d6 on a crit. I understand how he's arriving at this number, but it seems off to me. He's including his intensified 10d6 when calculating the amount to empower by. If you calculate it that way, his number is correct. However, it doesn't make sense to me that the effects would stack, because the result is different depending upon what order you calculate them in.

My way:

Intensified Shocking Grasp (caster level 10):

5d6 + 5d6 = 10d6

Empowered Shocking Grasp:

5d6 + (5*1/2)d6 = 7d6

Intensified, Empowered Shock Grasp:

5d6 + (5*1/2)d6 + 5d6 = 12d6

His way:

Intensified:

5d6 + 5d6 = 10d6

Empowered, Intensified:

5d6 + 5d6 + (5*1/2)d6 = ...12d6

...

Okay, after having written all that out, the result is actually the same. He's just getting his order of operations wrong! PMDAS comes to the rescue. I guess I'll give my player a math lesson next time we play, but I'll post this anyway as a reminder to all those munchkins out there to make sure your math is correct!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not sure why Empower wouldn't apply to Intensified. I'd expect (5d6 + 5d6)*1.5 = 15d6


PMDAS doesn't apply. I'm pretty sure your player is correct.

Intensified means his shocking grasp that normally does 5d6 can go to 10d6 (assuming he is 10th caster level). When you apply empowered it increase the number of dice by 50%. The number of dice is 10, not 5 thanks to intensified spell.

If you're having a problem with it don't let him using both magical lineage and wayang spell hunter to reduce the metamagic cost. Even if he has one, spending a 3rd level spell slot to deal 15d6 to one creature isn't especially good. It's good damage to a single target, but is only 53 damage on average. At 10th level if only has 3 third level spells per day. So this trick becomes quite limited.


Okay, so perhaps he is correct... but why, then, do we always apply the Intensified effect first? I'm sure PMDAS should apply for this very reason, because it changes the outcome depending upon what order you apply the metamagics.

Grand Lodge

Let's take a look at these two feats

Intensified wrote:

Intensified Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.

Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.

Level Increase: +1 (an intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)

So this is a substitution of the base damage die. It effectively just changed f(x) = xd6 'where x <= 5' to 'where x<=10'.

Then we look at the next one.

Empower wrote:

Empower Spell (Metamagic)

You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

Level Increase: +2 (an empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.)

so put the two together and we get f(x) = (x*1.5)d6 where x<=10.

Not to be rude, but the only problem I see here is your interpretation. I don't see how you can even read either of those to try and split the intensified bonus to only half of the empowered bonus.


With With the 1.5 from empower it's not extra dice rolled. It's taking the value Rolled and multiplying it by 1.5.

Grand Lodge

el cuervo wrote:
Okay, so perhaps he is correct... but why, then, do we always apply the Intensified effect first? I'm sure PMDAS should apply for this very reason, because it changes the outcome depending upon what order you apply the metamagics.

In this case you don't apply either of them first. They both work out the same function regardless of what order you do it.

One is giving a higher max value for x, the other is multiplying the resultant x by 1.5. It just works.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
With With the 1.5 from empower it's not extra dice rolled. It's taking the value Rolled and multiplying it by 1.5.

Actually yes, this is an important distinction and one I often forget.

It's not actually 15d6, it's (10d6)*1.5. You must first roll and then multiply the total damage by 1.5.

Why is it important? Because you could roll really shitty on the first 10 dice and roll only 10 damage (unlikely but possible), and then you would end up with 15 damage. But, the other way you could roll 10 ones, and then roll 5 sixes (incredibly unlikely but possible). Resulting in 40 damage.


Claxon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
With With the 1.5 from empower it's not extra dice rolled. It's taking the value Rolled and multiplying it by 1.5.

Actually yes, this is an important distinction and one I often forget.

It's not actually 15d6, it's (10d6)*1.5. You must first roll and then multiply the total damage by 1.5.

Why is it important? Because you could roll really s+#!ty on the first 10 dice and roll only 10 damage (unlikely but possible), and then you would end up with 15 damage. But, the other way you could roll 10 ones, and then roll 5 sixes (incredibly unlikely but possible). Resulting in 40 damage.

This. This makes it make sense. Thank you, that really resolves the issue entirely.

Liberty's Edge

I smell... Magus. xD

Basically what everyone else said, 10d6*1.5 is correct.

Actually, while the subject is being brought up, what happens in this example when you apply Maximize onto it as well?


DinosaursOnIce wrote:

I smell... Magus. xD

Basically what everyone else said, 10d6*1.5 is correct.

Actually, while the subject is being brought up, what happens in this example when you apply Maximize onto it as well?

By RAW, "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result."

So the 10d6 intensified, empowered, maximized shocking grasp generates 60 points plus half the amount actually rolled.

And what an appalling waste of what could have been a world-changing spell level.


DinosaursOnIce wrote:

I smell... Magus. xD

Basically what everyone else said, 10d6*1.5 is correct.

Actually, while the subject is being brought up, what happens in this example when you apply Maximize onto it as well?

60+10d6*.5

Liberty's Edge

Okie dokie, that's what I figured, wasn't sure how to express it.

That's when you take both Metamagic traits and spell perfection for a Level 2 spell!


DinosaursOnIce wrote:
I smell... Magus. xD

Bingo.

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