Thoughts on a Magus / cavalier build?


Advice

The Exchange

My Idea here was to make my Magus more of a Arcane Knight. What do you thing of the concept? I have seen a post about the samurai which is cool but I am thinking more like Arcane Knight. Does not have to be op, just has to not suck. lol. I can role play most things and don't mind letting the dice decide. I love the spell shadow weapon for this as it is best spell ever. I know it could backfire and do only 1 dam, but it gives me every weapon, same with the Blade Belt which might be a good investment. Would also like to know if the Spell Mount and Phantasm Mount would work with the Cavaliers abilities or does it have to be a real creature? Okay open to ideas on how to make this work. and Thanks.

The Exchange

Wow thought I would get some reply


Ok, first you mount has to be a real creature. Second, what are going for exactly? Do you want to ride around combat, hitting people with spells and weapons from your mount, do you want to use your mount for things like extra flanking? Do you want to destroy enemies with mighty charges, and then surprise them when you can also fireball them?

Also shadow weapon, I understand it's usefulness as a backup, but you don't want your regular weapon to have to be cast every combat, and cost a standard action to get out. So what kind of weapon do you want to use? Also preferred race?

Sovereign Court

Well, most of the cavalier's usual abilities work whether he's on his bonded mount or on any old mount. The only thing coming to mind that requires his bonded mount is ignoring armor check penalty on ride checks. Other than that, I'm not thinking of any difference.

However, if you were asking if the cavalier's mount class ability could somehow apply to enhancing a magically conjured mount as with the Mount spell, then most certainly not.


Also I just checked, shadow weapon is not a magus spell.


It... really doesn't work.

At lower levels, you lack Mounted Skirmisher. No Spell Combat while your mount moves. At higher levels, using a phatansmal mount means your mount dies the first time somebody chucks a Fireball.

It'd be nice in a gestalt game (though you'd definitely want to lead Sohei 2), but as-is the practicalities stop it from getting far. Almost any other caster does better than Magus once you rule out Spell Combat. Warpriest, for example, can actually make a solid mounted fighter. Wizard would also do better; something like Wizard 1 (Scryer)/Sohei 2/Eldritch Knight X would work decently enough.

Blade Belt is not really a good idea. Just saying.

The Exchange

Well That is a bummer. I was going for a Magus, that can use spell combat and spell strike from Mount. Was hoping it would work out better than that. Race I don't know was thinking Fetchlings. I was thinking shadow weapon or blade belt as it gives me the option of any melee weapon which means I can use it for Heavy Lance, then use it for sword etc. I


My advice, if you're not married to arcane, would be to check out the Divine Commander Warpriest archetype.

Or talk a GM into gestalt. And then into Spell Combat working with a lance.

The Exchange

Would the lance not be use able with spell combat as long as you were mounted? When mounted the lance can be wielded one handed.

Scarab Sages

You can use the lance one handed mounted, but you aren't really gaining anything except reach by doing so. You can't move and spell combat. Not even mounted skirmisher will allow you to do that because spell combat is not a full attack, but a special action.

The Exchange

I am missing something, Why can't I move and use spellcombat? I am not seeing where I can't

Scarab Sages

Because if your mount moves more than 5 feet, you are limited to a standard attack action. You can't make a spell combat action, because that is a full-round action.

Mounted Combat wrote:

Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

You could have you mount move, cast a touch spell, and then deliver it via spellstrike through your lance, but you can't make a full attack and cast if your mount moves.

The Exchange

I had my terms mixed up, so I can use spell strike with the lance which is what I wanted to do. So that works.


Bardofcyberspace wrote:
Would the lance not be use able with spell combat as long as you were mounted? When mounted the lance can be wielded one handed.

Because the lance is still a two-handed weapon. That you're wielding it one-handed doesn't change what it is, which is what Spell Combat checks.

Also because you're moving, which screws you unless you have Mounted Skirmisher.

Even if you only care about Spellstrike, honestly your action economy is terrible unless you're not taking advantage of the lance's capabilities.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:
Bardofcyberspace wrote:
Would the lance not be use able with spell combat as long as you were mounted? When mounted the lance can be wielded one handed.

Because the lance is still a two-handed weapon. That you're wielding it one-handed doesn't change what it is, which is what Spell Combat checks.

Also because you're moving, which screws you unless you have Mounted Skirmisher.

Even mounted skirmisher doesn't fix spell combat while mounted. Mounted skirmisher allows a full attack. Spell combat is a special full round action that isn't a full attack, but allows you to attack as if you were making one.


Honestly I thought for a while about this, and there are ways to do it, but they aren't going to be very good. The real advantage of the cavalier and his mount, is charging, and charging doesn't work well with spell strike or spell combat.

The Exchange

Yeah that is what I was looking at a magus who would use the mount and charge and when not mounted the magus would give you enough not to hinder the party.


You can do this as a straight magus with a mauler familiar; or really, any familiar that you can enlarge somehow to be at least medium. Beast blade Magus's seem to be perfect for this.

It actually doesn't sound like a half bad build. Yeah, you don't get one of the best parts of having a mount (mounted skirmisher) but then, noone does until like 14 anyway, short of a sohei dip.

There was also some rules debate about who is charging (you, your mount, or both) when you are using spirited charge, so maybe you could deliver the touch spell as an attack when your mount charged and count as charging? That could be interesting.


You only need to make the check if your mount moves both before and after the spell getting cast as far as I can tell. So you can play around it kinda easily.


LoneKnave wrote:
You only need to make the check if your mount moves both before and after the spell getting cast as far as I can tell. So you can play around it kinda easily.

Ehh... Given that charging is a full-round action for the mount, and the fact that as a rider you can't use full-round actions for multiple attacks, I can very easily see a GM saying you're casting the spell during the movement of the mount.

I can honestly see it going either way, but I think it'd be smarter to treat the concept with the "worst-case scenario" mindset.

So far, the way I can see this working is Magus with a 4 level dip in Cavalier to qualify for the Horse Master feat (allowing one to treat their entire character level for their effective Cavalier level to determine the mount's statistics and abilities).

Lantern Lodge

First problem: The mount. You need something that lives for at least a little while. Traditional horses will get one-shoted. To counter this, consider buying an exotic mount, or having the spell mount/phantom mount prepared daily.

Second problem: The traditional charge doesn't with spell combat or spell strike. A mounted charged, as defined by the FAQ, requires a charge action from both the rider and mount, which removes your standard action to cast a spell. If you held the spell from a round before, or quickened a spell, then it'd work. (Kinda sucks)

Spell combat would require the feat "Mounted Skirmisher", which requires 14 ranks in Ride, which means it'll be awhile before you can get that.


I don't see why there is an issue here. Why are we focusing so much on Spell Combat when we should be focusing on Spellstrike.

Spellstrike has NO weapon size requirement and works off touch spells that do not need to be cast the same round they are used since you can store a touch spell until you cast a second touch spell. Sure early game this will be rough, but that's not particularly problematic once you get access to a Metamagic Rod of Quicken.

Additionally, a Magus can always wield a Small Lance to make the lance one handed. This is the same penalty incurred for using spell combat, but allows you to charge with 3x damage (Holla Holla G'Dolla) [Sadly this does not boost spell damage).

Besides that, you can make the Lance Spell Storing and then ram someone with a Double Shocking Grasp+3x Lance Damage, which will hurt like...something that hurts a lot.

Should you want to play something more focused on crits, I suggest going for a Familiar and to take a few level dip in Swashbuckler. Then you can ride around wielding a Scimitar from Goat back/Earth Elemental Back/Whatever those new fangled shenanigans from Familiar Folio/a Permanency spell can pull off. Then you can go Kensi without losing 6th level spells.

If you really want Cavalier, I'd suggest Cavalier 4, Magus 16. That gets you a full mount with Horse Master at 7th level, and all 6 levels of spells.

My suggestion though is probably Inspired Blade 1/Magus X and go Crit build from Goatback.


Because your action economy sucks with Spellstrike. Same reason it blows chunks for the Blade Adept Arcanist.

First round: cast touch spell, do not deliver, do something with the move action.

Second round: Charge and deliver.

Third round: either ignore your Magus capabilities or repeat step one.

You can do better with Frostbite, but Frostbite tends to lead to a build-intensive setup and since you probably want charging feats you don't want that.


Third round you can Spell Combat because you have charged next to your opponent and can take a full round action. Or they move outside your range and you can then move and use Spellstrike to make a single attack and cast a spell. You don't need to charge every attack.

That is why I suggested a Rod of Quicken, as it would allow you to quickly cast a Touch spell and deliver it on your charge. That would give you 3 charges a day, and then you can just ride and spellstrike each round since you can double move your mount and still take a standard action.

That would require a check, still you can single move your mount and attack with your mount in addition to making an attack of your own.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

First problem: The mount. You need something that lives for at least a little while. Traditional horses will get one-shoted. To counter this, consider buying an exotic mount, or having the spell mount/phantom mount prepared daily.

Second problem: The traditional charge doesn't with spell combat or spell strike. A mounted charged, as defined by the FAQ, requires a charge action from both the rider and mount, which removes your standard action to cast a spell. If you held the spell from a round before, or quickened a spell, then it'd work. (Kinda sucks)

Spell combat would require the feat "Mounted Skirmisher", which requires 14 ranks in Ride, which means it'll be awhile before you can get that.

The first problem can be solved with the Horse Master feat from Ultimate Combat, allowing you to use your full character level instead of only Cavalier levels to determine the stats of your mount (requires 4 levels in Cav though).

The second problem does suck. Though I wonder if you could give your mount the Coordinated Charge teamwork feat to allow you to change the charge action for the rider into a swift/immediate for your turn...

And the last problem. Yeah, but in the situations where you won't be mounted you'll have spell combat.

The Exchange

That has really helped. I was thinking something along the lines of cav 4 Magus 16, play like a arcane paladin for flavor. Not every round will I be charging but I can spell strike when I do. With enough distance, could I not cast a spell (spell strike pre etc) round one and use move action to start moving mount towards target, then second round spell strike charge, ? At higher levels with quicked lesser rod I should be fine.


With a lance in one hand and a quickened rod in the other hand, you don't have a free hand to cast a spell.

A class that gets bonus mounted feats (like sohei monk) without meeting all the prerequisites, that might be a better fit than cavalier. The Hunter class might be interesting to look at, too, and you would pick up another spell list.


Arcanalier

Magus/Cavalier hybrid.

Can cast spells as part of a mounted charge.

1-4 casting, full base attack. Arcane challenge makes attacks magical and adds elemental damage against a particular foe.

I know, I know, not helping.

Don't forget the Uncanny Concentration feat. I had a mounted wizard and that feat means you don't make concentration checks while mounted. Well, not for being mounted and you normally should, but some DM's may hand wave that.


Out of the box it won't work very well. If your GM is willing to work outside the box a little, it is probably a viable and interesting concept.

I would recommend some sort of custom magus archetype to get what you want.

First you will need a mount. The mount spell probably isn't very good, since is gets you a non-combat trained light horse. Phantom steed might work well, since although it won't attack it doesn't seem to have any ride checks for things like being injured or moving against foes. In any event, I don't see why you couldn't charge etc. while riding them.

A mauler familiar will work great if you are small, and can get gotten for the price of a single arcana without any customization. Alternatively, I think getting an Animal Companion of the same strength as a ranger (level - 3) would not be unbalanced for an arcana.

The big problem is spell combat, and I would suggest this:

Charging Spellstrike: You can cast a spell and make an attack during a charge. You do not get the regular +2 to hit and you take an additional -2 penalty (-4 overall) to your AC. This replaces spell combat. (keeping the requirement for having a hand free etc etc.)

Strictly speaking, this is worse than spell combat an a whole lot less versatile, however that isn't uncommon for an archetype and it lets you do what you want to do.

I am not sure what cavalier things you wanted, but getting a couple of them in place of an arcana or other magus abilities would be reasonable. Similar things exist for a magus to get swashbuckler special abilities for example.

Also, the Eberron setting from 3.5 had a prestige class built around the concept of a wizard-knight using a phantom steed as a mount. If that concept interests you you might try and track it down and look at it for ideas.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Thoughts on a Magus / cavalier build? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice