Things to help invigorate economy


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Here are a few things that come to mind that may help stimulate the economy (because it needs some help).

1) Drastically reduce the frequency of recipe drops, and change the loot tables so higher level drops do not occur at lower levels. I saw the level 20 recipe Guurzak got in loot, and while exciting, there is no reason a level 20 recipe should ever drop this early in the game, That is a major loot table fail and should be removed immediately. Also, level +1 recipes should be reasonably common, +2 very uncommon, and any +3 should be very rare indeed. What is happening is monsters are getting farmed badly so every settlement can remain independent producers of every crafting input of levels +1 thru +3 (in large part since trading in any reasonable volume is otherwise almost impossible). This independence, while admirable, is causing there to be no need to trade refined goods. Why invest the time in trading refined components when all we need to do is farm the hell out of nearby monsters so we get the ability to craft everything we need ourselves?

2) With a reduction of the current recipes dropping, GW should infuse the crafting with a wide variety of other recipes to still make some drops possible, just reducing the percent chance of a drop. Add many more shields (there should be at least 30-50 different types of shields when all is said and done, add tons of new tailoring, leatherworker, and metalsmithing recipes. Tailoring should include a large variety of capes and cloaks, role-play clothing, dresses, hats, gloves and all the things that go with heraldry. I know the pennants, banners, flags and tunics are not in yet, and they will be a while, but they should be planned for a future release. Leatherworkers could make sandals, boots, bags and backpacks, leatherwork and smith aprons, as well as supplies for the eventual release of the trade caravan animals, animal handling, and possibly mounts.

3) Push out wagons, carts and other trade caravan items that increase the encumbrance that can be moved at one time. Again, this might already be on the drawing board, but moving it up on the timetable may give the trade networks a boost and help fire up the sluggish economy.

4) Fix the auction house. You know what it needs. (I know, next patch or two.)

Goblin Squad Member

With regards to point one, I see no reason to not allow level 20 recipes to drop this early, in my mind that's one less lower level recipe being immediately used in the market. And if you reduce the drop rate even more, that just amplifies it even more.

As for the rest, which I'd like to see, I'm sure GW's response will be "it's on the list"


1.) Are Tier 2 recipes as common as Tier 1? We've only found one so far but we're not as actively engaging in higher level escalations as other groups may be. Something to remember, Tier 1 is supposed to be more or less throw away common gear whereas Tier 2 will be most of your 'good' gear sets that are tougher to replace. This might just end up being a reflection on resource requirements than a reflection of recipe rarity. In theory Tier 3 will rarely be pulled out or only a single piece here and there. (All of this contingent on Threading working as previously discussed) Queue management will also become a bigger deal once you need to sink more xp into a crafting skill. We already have armor taking 4hours to craft, I expect that to only get worse.

2.) Not a bad idea, except that it eventually will compete for crafting queue time. Might let some niche folks fill in while primary crafting characters would focus on a settlement's power projection needs.

3 & 4.) Wholeheartedly agree.

Goblin Squad Member

Thannon Forsworn <RBL> wrote:
We already have armor taking 4hours to craft, I expect that to only get worse.

T2 items take 10 times as long to cook as their T1 counterparts. T3 is 100.

Goblin Squad Member

As recipes are not consumable they are one of those "the first is priceless the next 6 of the same are junk" things.

There is no benefit to less recipes (unless you are hoping to have an edge on new players) as they will reduce in value anyway over time as more and more crafters have all the recipes they need no matter what you do to the drop rate.

To get the effect you are after you would need to make dropped recipes consumables the same way BPC work in EVE. That way what you find as a drop is a recipe that makes say " 10 suits of Pot Plate armor" before expiring (cos magic or ink fades or some other lore reason).

It seems to me a compromise where most recipes are unlimited run but a few special recipes only drop as a limited run special item may work well.


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In order to allow players to handle Tier X monsters, loot tables have to include at least a few loots of Tier X+1. I imagine that Guurzak's recipe dropped from a Tier 2 monster, so I think things are working reasonably.

And for anyone who wants to remind me that there are some basic free recipes that a crafter gets at each tier... here's your club. :-)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:

In order to allow players to handle Tier X monsters, loot tables have to include at least a few loots of Tier X+1. I imagine that Guurzak's recipe dropped from a Tier 2 monster, so I think things are working reasonably.

And for anyone who wants to remind me that there are some basic free recipes that a crafter gets at each tier... here's your club. :-)

But where's the ex-horse?

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
There is no benefit to less recipes (unless you are hoping to have an edge on new players) as they will reduce in value anyway over time as more and more crafters have all the recipes they need no matter what you do to the drop rate.

Not fewer recipes, but a much lower drop rate for all recipes.

The fewer there are of a specific recipe the more settlements will have to rely on trade to get what they need. It is quite obvious every settlement with a decent population is trying to create every item independently of all other settlements, gather all needed materials themselves, and not interact with other settlements much at all. A dysfunctional AH and very difficult trading mechanics make this almost necessary, but not what was originally desired (if I read the blogs correctly).

Rare recipes would cause settlements to interact more, trade more (even if it is difficult), and not try to remain completely isolated (think North Korea).

Goblin Squad Member

T1 were always meant to be dirt common, people only use T1 stuff for the first month or two.

Are you saying T2 recipes drop too often ? Because we have killed a lot of generic Purple Ogres without seeing any at all ?

Regardless of that, I still say, assuming a problem exists, that the solution is to make the recipes limited run so they disappear and need replacement not a brute force reduction in drop rates.

Goblin Squad Member

We have only gotten a few (three so far I think). The point is, if every settlement gets every recipe, there will be less incentive to trade refined goods or finished product with others. It is one thing, among many, that might help to increase the need for trade and spur activity in the (currently stagnant) economy.

Goblin Squad Member

Wouldn't that just create an elite (similar to the T2 BPO holders in EVE)of recipe holders who pretty much have a license to print gold ? In particular TEO and Golgotha will end up with fully trained crafters while everyone else scrabbles for recipes.

Goblin Squad Member

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Hardin Steele wrote:
Not fewer recipes, but a much lower drop rate for all recipes.

That would be fine for newly introduced recipes, but as mentioned previously, lower drop rates would offer yet another advantage to those that started early vs those coming later (on top of several weeks without looting and start goblins that dropped loot (including recipes) like flies.

If you want to lessen the number of recipes in circulation, they can certainly be destroyed from your inventory by dragging them to the trash.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree that it is too late for Tier 1 recipes, as the starting settlements have a huge head start, so Tier 2 and above, as well as recipes that have not yet been introduced should drop at a much lower rate.

Otherwise, what are other ideas to get the economy going that have not been mentioned above?

Goblin Squad Member

I suppose what I am saying is restricting supply is a very counter-intuitive way of getting an economy going. It is the PFO equivalent of restrictive trade practice and tariffs. To be honest I cannot see it working.

I am not sure it is necessary but I believe what would help is things that increase demand:
1) more players especially non crafting ones.

2) destroy more stuff by (not all the following are serious but all would work):

- more PvP (though the roam around the settlements and kill everyone crafting and at the bank thing that is currently going on all over the map is counter productive and has some people about to quit)

- reduce endurance. Fair enough let a Pot Plate stay endurance 20 but make a Dagger something like endurance 5 and a Longsword or Longbow be endurance 10.

- increase the destroyed rate on death to 50%

- rush through the introduction of consumables like arrows and wizard/cleric charges

- have a failure rate in crafting so a percentage of crafts fail and destroy your mats

- when escalations get out of hand let them loot the vaults of players in nearby settlements

- increase the death rate when gathering by having roaming bands of monsters that notice gather activity at long distances

- let NPCs loot husks

- invent new consumables

... most of which would be unpopular but you get the idea - more destruction, more demand, more vibrant economy

Goblin Squad Member

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Hardin Steele wrote:
what are other ideas

1) the coin economy will not take off until there are coin sinks.

2) the auction economy will not take off until auction houses are more featureful (and see number 1)
3) we need caravans to enable any significant movement of goods or materials across the map.

We're not going to see any major changes in the way people play economy until those issues are addressed.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Hardin Steele wrote:
what are other ideas

1) the coin economy will not take off until there are coin sinks.

2) the auction economy will not take off until auction houses are more featureful (and see number 1)
3) we need caravans to enable any significant movement of goods or materials across the map.

I agree with Guurzak's first two. I haven't put goods up for sale in the market/AH because I have absolutely no idea how much I should value coin.

I'm not sure that the caravans are critical with our current population. People can shift large numbers of items across the map, but do they have proper incentive? Is there some universal way to pay them? That's typically done with coin - which currently is a big unknown value marker.

I think tightening the resource faucets - introducing at least a threat of scarcity - might improve the economy. Elsewhere I've suggested that in a hex with a >50% monster escalation, nodes should drop 1/2 loot. That would encourage PvE play. So far, the main PvE monster farming was low-end goblins for recipes and starter gear and now the high-end escalations.

The game right now gives us no real reason to spend gear and time clearing low-mid level escalations. Time is important because if I had to spend hours clearing escalation hexes for gathering, that would directly reduce the time available for farming T2 escalations for recipe drops.

Goblin Squad Member

I run around on my ranger/gatherer and work low to mid level escalations solo as I'm picking logs.


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My guess is most of the Destiny's Twins are in the game already.

Destiny's Twins were horrible for the economy because nearly every DT account has a crafter.

As more and more players come in without Destiny's Twin you will see a more vibrant economy with more customers for the glut of crafters we currently have.

That is actually what is wrong with the economy... Too many crafters because hundreds of players didn't have to choose between adventuring and crafting.

Time (and not offering anymore DTs) is the only thing that will cure this.

Goblin Squad Member

If we want to improve inter-settlement economics and trade (without or before features are added) more of us have to get down to business. Start taking loads of mats and goods that you know another settlement wants, to them. Alternatively, make offers for them to come to you with what you want and get what they want ready for trade and pickup.

Or meet in the middle. Establish trade hubs that several settlements can agree on.

Instead of far ranging for what is hard for you to find, trade for it.

It is that simple and it will spark PVP which is fun for others.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have shown that a combat character can spend about two weeks of XP and have about 90% self sufficient for all T1+2 equipment that they will need.

So settlements being 95+% self sufficient on T1+2 for every thing is not that hard, nor requires any dedicated crafters.

T2 is just now starting to become available from dedicated crafting groups. The well organized larger settlements can easily dedicate 17 characters to cover all the crafting/refining skills. Medium, and less structured large settlements will need to establish trade with other such settlements in the long run. I suspect more trade being done at the company level then at the settlement level.

T1 is always going to have a low barrier of entry. But as such real profit will be minimal. However, I only expect the market to only be about 30% for T1, mostly new characters and those that are dabbling secondary roles.

T2 will be the bulk of the market in the long run. But not for another month or two. Characters are just now being able to use T2 items, but the cost is not worth it yet. So there is little demand, and even less supply of T2 right now. Both of those will balance out in the coming months.

The only thing I would need to wait and see is the level of lost items over time. 20 deaths to lose gear is quite a bit. Time will tell how much item destruction PvP brings to the game.


Thanks for the post, Hardin! My thoughts are as follows.

Items 1 and 2 are relatively pointless at this point. Item 3 and 4 are not actually necessary and, if done, will not do anything to get the economy going.

What we need is a pricing tool that will allow us to seed the economy with rough prices we can worth with. Without that, it doesn't matter how quickly we can move items or how easy the AH is to use. Folks will still continue to barter because it is easier to wrap the mind around.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I really like the idea of different durabilities for different items. We already have different crafting times. In fact, there's been discussion of the negative implications of armor taking several times longer to craft than weapons. If armor lasted longer than weapons, it would help to balance the difference in creating times.

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