Grizzled Gryphon |
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I was looking up the 'Steal' maneuver for someone, and couldn't help but notice that one can use a whip to make steal attempts. Now, I really want to make up a whip focused character, with trip and steal. I was about to embark on a search through the various books I have to see what all there is that would add to this build idea.
But then, I thought, this idea has surely been done before! And probably done by people far better at it then me, to boot!
And so, here I am, asking if anyone has a most excellent whip wielder build? I was going to go fighter, just due to the sheer number of feats required to do this. At least, it appears to be quite a few feats.
I tried googling "Whip Build", but all I got were trip builds that use a whip. Certainly good info to go on for a whip master, but not precisely what I was going for.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome!
LoneKnave |
The uncontested whipping boy(s) are the Magus and the Warpriest. Both have abilities to apply truestrike to themselves along with attacking in the same turn, which gives a pretty massive +20 to the maneuver. Magus also needs a few feats to be able to replace an attack with steal (or a dip into maneuver master monk), while warpriest can pull the combo off right away, gets bonus damage with whips, but needs swift actions and fervor pool to make good use of it.
Dafydd |
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Some general advice on combat manuever builds and using a whip.
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone in a Wayfinder is a +2 to ALL CMB and CMD (this includes trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, dirty trick, and steal)
With a whip, you do not need to be adjacent to the foe to do the manuevers, thus you only need improved (manuever) for the +2 it gives.
You can use Dex with the manuever, so long as the manuever is done with a finessible weapon (and you have weapon finesse).
Any bonuses you have for using a whip (such as weapon focus) apply to the manuever, so long as you use the whip.
As another possibility, you could go with Magus, (Kensai Bladebound) to get the Focus and Proficiency for free. Arcane Pool to enhance the whip. Bladebound to give you a free whip, that improves over time. The Manuever arcanas allow you to use your magus level in place of your BaB, negating the lose of d8 vs d10. You can still do damage in battle by discharging touch spells via the whip during a manuever.
That said, I am sure many people will come by and suggest the fighter route. It is an option, I just prefer the magus path.
Imbicatus |
The uncontested whipping boy(s) are the Magus and the Warpriest. Both have abilities to apply truestrike to themselves along with attacking in the same turn, which gives a pretty massive +20 to the maneuver. Magus also needs a few feats to be able to replace an attack with steal (or a dip into maneuver master monk), while warpriest can pull the combo off right away, gets bonus damage with whips, but needs swift actions and fervor pool to make good use of it.
Warpriest doesn't get access to true strike. Other than that, it's a way to make the whip work.
Zwordsman |
SSwashbuckler+whip+slashing grace is hilarious to me. Especially with later deeds.
the lv 7 one is fun. and the flatfooting one is amusing too. For other things youcould pull off.
plus you still get precision damage from it. Just maybe pick up improved unarmed feat so you can stil parry/repost since i'm not sure you could with a whip if they were next to you.. could stil whip parry a range weapon though.
Dafydd |
Anyone taking that challenge, my Whip magus 5 (Kensai Bladebound) is at a +12 trip, +14 disarm (although I have never used it before, Steal is +8.) The only investments to do these is the ioun stone in the wayfinder, the free WF and Weapon Finesse (Black Blade is a +2 atm). Add +2 for arcane pool.
At 6th level, the Manuever arcana and a belt of dex will jump the score to +16(+18 disarm, +12 steal), add arcane pool for a +2.
This is all without True Strike, which adds +18 (since you have to Spell Combat)
LessPopMoreFizz |
I'm fond of the Magus for whip builds, though I prefer not to invest in maneuvers beyond the ioun stone.
Where the whip magus really shines after level 7 or so, (particularly Kensai, blade bound is optional), IMO, is as an AOO monster. Frostbite with Rime Spell and Magical Lineage replaces Shocking Grasp as your main Spellstrike engine, and with buffs like Enlarge Person and Long Arm, or feats like Lunge, you can create a fairly massive zone of control in which nobody can move or cast a spell without being hit by you, taking your whip damage, Frostbite damage, and being Fatigued and Entangled.
The damage gets pretty respectable eventually too, if you start bringing in feats like Arcane Deed/Precise Strike.
Cevah |
Make sure to get an inverted planter as a hat, and say "Whip it good" when you whip it.
/cevah
Lune |
Something I feel I have to bring up frequently as it was mentioned above: Lunge does not affect Attacks of Opportunity.
RAW, it doesn't anyway. I still am not sure if this was intentional. In the games I play in and run we house rule it to work as a stance like Power Attack and Combat Expertise do. This is, however, a house rule. I would not expect this at unfamiliar tables.
edit: Also, I saw Devo live in concert at Lolapalooza 97. It was... interesting.
Imbicatus |
Lunge doesn't directly affect Attacks of Opportunity, but with proper positioning, it indirectly makes you more able to take them.
If you have a reach weapon, and you use lunge to attack a melee foe 5 feet outside of your normal range, you get to make your attack and then at the end of your turn you are no longer threatening them. However, if they do not have a ranged attack, to attack you or your allies they must move through your threatened area using normal movement, which will provoke. They may try to move around your threatened area, but that is making them waste a turn moving, which is a win.
Lune |
I'm sure you are right, Imbicatus, but I must just not be following your logic.
AoOs are provoked by moving THROUGH a threatened square, not INTO one. If you are attacking someone with a melee weapon (like normal melee, not a whip... and considering medium sized characters) and you use the lunge feat then they would be 10' away from you. If they then 5' step in, they do not provoke an AoO for 2 reasons: 1. They used a 5' step. 2. They didn't move THROUGH a threatened square.
Now, if you add in reach to the equation it doesn't really help. Consider just a medium sized character with Lunge and a Whip. If he attacks someone using lunge they would be 20' away. They can't 5' step in to get to you as that wouldn't put them adjacent to you. They have to move THROUGH a threatened square to get to you thus provoking an AoO. However, they don't provoke for the first 5' of movement as you no longer threatened there when it isn't your turn. Lunge only gives you additional reach during YOUR turn, not your opponents. You threaten to 15' when it isn't your turn.
How does this differ from not using Lunge? It doesn't. Except where the first attack comes from. You still only threaten to your normal reach, not your Lunge reach.
LessPopMoreFizz |
Something I feel I have to bring up frequently as it was mentioned above: Lunge does not affect Attacks of Opportunity.
RAW, it doesn't anyway. I still am not sure if this was intentional. In the games I play in and run we house rule it to work as a stance like Power Attack and Combat Expertise do. This is, however, a house rule. I would not expect this at unfamiliar tables.
edit: Also, I saw Devo live in concert at Lolapalooza 97. It was... interesting.
Given the writing of Mythic Lunge, this interpretation is almost certainly not intended.
As for DEVO... RIP Bob 1. :(
Imbicatus |
I'm sure you are right, Imbicatus, but I must just not be following your logic.
AoOs are provoked by moving THROUGH a threatened square, not INTO one. If you are attacking someone with a melee weapon (like normal melee, not a whip... and considering medium sized characters) and you use the lunge feat then they would be 10' away from you. If they then 5' step in, they do not provoke an AoO for 2 reasons: 1. They used a 5' step. 2. They didn't move THROUGH a threatened square.
Now, if you add in reach to the equation it doesn't really help. Consider just a medium sized character with Lunge and a Whip. If he attacks someone using lunge they would be 20' away. They can't 5' step in to get to you as that wouldn't put them adjacent to you. They have to move THROUGH a threatened square to get to you thus provoking an AoO. However, they don't provoke for the first 5' of movement as you no longer threatened there when it isn't your turn. Lunge only gives you additional reach during YOUR turn, not your opponents. You threaten to 15' when it isn't your turn.
How does this differ from not using Lunge? It doesn't. Except where the first attack comes from. You still only threaten to your normal reach, not your Lunge reach.
I'll need to use a diagram. In the crude grid below, you are Y, the enemy is E. The enemy is 10 feet away and you attack on your turn normally. You are threatening the enemy directly, but enemy can still take a 5 foot step to reach you, and thus bypass your AoO and make a full attack.
00E00
00000
00Y00
Now let's add lunge and the enemy is 15 feet away. You attack with lunge, but you are not threatening them at the end of your turn. However, if they want to attack you in melee, they must make a normal move instead of a 5' step, meaning they can't full attack, and they can't reach you without leaving a threatened square and provoking an AoO. Obviously, you want to use this tactic against melee foes without reach or ranged weapons.
00E00
00000
00000
00Y00
cnetarian |
There is a swashbuckler archetype built around the whip, the mysterious avenger, which is arguably the best mundane whip user (the argument is whether or not a straight swashbuckler using slashing grace is better).
the traditional whip/trip build is the lore warden (fighter archetype) and is probably better for what you want, the build needs so many feats to work well (whip mastery, imp whip mastery, combat expertise, imp. steal, greater steal, imp. trip, weapon finesse, combat reflexes) that fighter is choice #1 unless you are building the character at level 7+.
if you are trying a sneak type build then take a look at the pain taster PrCs (two versions, the old version had 5 levels the new version has 10) which has full BAB and gets sneak attack damage with whips. I don't have the rules for the new version but the old version has some nice utility abilities which added nicely to a whip build which had most of the feats.
Lune |
Imbicatus: So I am assuming that in image one that you are using a reach weapon? I'm guessing it is not a whip (like what is being discussed here) because you aren't attacking at maximum reach there.
So that would make diagram 2 incorrect as well if you are using a whip. So I'm guessing still a polearm then? You are correct in both if you are using a polearm. However, a simple 5' step away from the enemy after making a full attack would accomplish the same task in each scenario and doesn't require spending a feat. I suppose the only exception is the situations where you are unable to take a 5' step.
I think that basically my point is that you shouldn't take Lunge if your intention is to be able to more effectively make AoOs at a greater range as it does not accomplish that.
LessPopMoreFizz: Mythic Lunge is worded differently and does not use the "during your turn" clause. This is likely because Mythic Feats are intentionally more powerful than non-Mythic Feats. But again, RAW, Lunge does not increase your AoO range.
LessPopMoreFizz |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
LessPopMoreFizz: Mythic Lunge is worded differently and does not use the "during your turn" clause. This is likely because Mythic Feats are intentionally more powerful than non-Mythic Feats. But again, RAW, Lunge does not increase your AoO range.
So, like I said, RAW, you seem to be right...
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
But, Mythic Lunge doesn't negate Lunge as written in any way, as you seem to indicate. It merely appears to be written based on an assumption that Lunge works for AoO's.
Benefit: Whenever you use Lunge and hit a creature with the melee attack, you no longer take a –2 penalty to AC against that creature. You can expend one use of mythic power when you use Lunge to negate the –2 penalty to AC whether you hit or miss, and gain a +2 bonus on attacks of opportunity you make while Lunge is in effect.
So, while it's true that RAW, Lunge doesn't increase reach for AOO's, I think it's at a minimum extremely murky what the intended outcome.
Hell, I'd go so far as to argue that it's pretty clear cut what the intention is, based on the presumption.