Making an 8th level paladin. Thoughts?


Advice


I can get 18 max at first level and no score below 8. What do you think about the build?

Str 20 (2 racial, 2 item)
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 20 (2 levels, 2 item)

Race: Human

Archetype: Oath of Vengeance

Feats:
Human bonus- Power Attack
1st- Weapon Focus- Falchion
3rd- Greater Mercy
5th- Extra Lay on Hands
7th- Ultimate Mercy

Favored class bonus went into +1 hp every level

Planned feats:
9th: Improved Criticals- Falchion

Traits:
+2 concentration checks
+2 caster level
+2 initiative

I plan to be using Bless and Divine favor in battle, and a spell slot for grace in case I need to wade into the middle of enemies. 2nd level spells I plan to use are litany of righteousness and either Inheritor's smite, Paladin's sacrifice or Fire of Entanglement

The idea is to be able to do damage, but also have decent healing or use extra LoHs as extra smites as per Oath of Vengeance, with some survivability with greater mercy and Ultimate Mercy for emergencies involving PC deaths.


First of all. For what? PFS, an AP,if so wich AP?
You should have just 2 traits.
My favorite is Armor Expert and Dangerously curious.
Just my 2 coppers


there is no +2 caster level traits afaik.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

For a paladin, Fey Foundling is like the Ultimate Trait.

that's a good basic paladin build. I would, however, scale back your 20's to 18, get your Int to 10, Dex to 12 and Con to 14. You're going to need the hit points, and 3 skill points/level still isn't going to be enough, but it's better then 2.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

I would, however, scale back your 20's to 18, get your Int to 10, Dex to 12 and Con to 14. You're going to need the hit points, and 3 skill points/level still isn't going to be enough, but it's better then 2.

I wouldn't dump wisdom either. I realize that charisma buffs all your saves - but it's still worth having a 12 in wisdom.

The trait to drop would be the +2 Concentration checks - if you're in melee you'll be swinging your sword anyway.

Sovereign Court

Gallyck wrote:
there is no +2 caster level traits afaik.

Yes there is - Magical Knack. It's worthless for primary casters as it maxes at your hit dice. But it's awesome for gishes (Eldrich Knight/Dragon Disciple etc) and solid for rangers/paladins as their caster level is only 1/2 their class level.


Quote:
I would, however, scale back your 20's to 18, get your Int to 10, Dex to 12 and Con to 14.

+1. You'll hit really hard and have great saves, but a higher con score would be extremely helpful.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:
Quote:
I would, however, scale back your 20's to 18, get your Int to 10, Dex to 12 and Con to 14.
+1. You'll hit really hard and have great saves, but a higher con score would be extremely helpful.

+1 here too. Also, I'd recommend against an 8 Wis in a home game - I know how much fun I'd have if a guy showed up at my table with 8 int & wis, lol.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Actually, the 8 Wis for the paladin is equal to the 8 Cha for a fighter, practically speaking. The standard array for an NPC paladin uses an 8 Wis...because after the penalty, they are still ahead of a fighter with a Wis bonus.

Remember that the Paladin has a Good Will Save. If there's one stat he can afford to dump, it's Wis. It doesn't even affect his spellcasting anymore.

The Int should stay higher, however.

==Aelryinth


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
there is no +2 caster level traits afaik.
Yes there is - Magical Knack. It's worthless for primary casters as it maxes at your hit dice. But it's awesome for gishes (Eldrich Knight/Dragon Disciple etc) and solid for rangers/paladins as their caster level is only 1/2 their class level.

Actually a paladins caster level is paladin level -3, not half.

Sovereign Court

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Gallyck wrote:
there is no +2 caster level traits afaik.
Yes there is - Magical Knack. It's worthless for primary casters as it maxes at your hit dice. But it's awesome for gishes (Eldrich Knight/Dragon Disciple etc) and solid for rangers/paladins as their caster level is only 1/2 their class level.
Actually a paladins caster level is paladin level -3, not half.

You're right. My bad - it was 1/2 in D&D 3.5.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
For a paladin, Fey Foundling is like the Ultimate Trait.

Fey Foundling is a Feat not a trait. It can only be taken at first level but It is considered the best feat for a paladin at level 1.

I recommend a stat array of:

Str: 20 (racial & +2 Item), Dex: 11+1=12, Con: 13+1= 14, Int & Wis: 8, Cha 16+2 item=18

Traits of:
Dangerously Curious= UMD as a Class Skill (max this and get a wand of Mirror image ASAP)
Fate's Favored- (you said you want to use Divine Favor in battle...I recommend a Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier as well....Later Prayer will be a Go to spell to start boss battles off with.)
Reactionary: +2 initative

Feats:
H-Fey Foundling
1-Power Attack
3-Greater Mercy
5-Weapon Focus- Falchion
7-Extra Lay on Hands

9th- Improved Critical

Skills: Diplomacy, UMD, Perception: This is about all a paladin needs....I see you, I try to reason with you, I Buff up and I smite you.

Ultimate mercy is a wasted feat in this build. First reason....you need 10 uses of lay on hands when your using them on yourself to stay alive and getting extra smites with your Oath. Your not going to have 10 uses left to use on the feat when someone goes down this early. Perhaps wait till later levels when you have like 15+ uses of lay on hands...But even then you can cast Resurrection from a scroll with UMD and not waste your feats on a support feat.....focus on just YOUR combat and not playing front liner who runs off to heal people.

Liberty's Edge

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Quote:
For a paladin, Fey Foundling is like the Ultimate Trait.

Fey Fondling is a Feat not a trait. It can only be taken at first level but It is considered the best feat for a paladin at level 1.

I recommend a stat array of:

Str: 20 (racial & +2 Item), Dex: 11+1=12, Con: 13+1= 14, Int & Wis: 8, Cha 16+2 item=18

Traits of:
Dangerously Curious= UMD as a Class Skill (max this and get a wand of Mirror image ASAP)
Fate's Favored- (you said you want to use Divine Favor in battle...I recommend a Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier as well....Later Prayer will be a Go to spell to start boss battles off with.)
Reactionary: +2 initative

Feats:
H-Fey Fondling
1-Power Attack
3-Greater Mercy
5-Weapon Focus- Falchion
7-Extra Lay on Hands

9th- Improved Critical

Skills: Diplomacy, UMD, Perception: This is about all a paladin needs....I see you, I try to reason with you, I Buff up and I smite you.

Ultimate mercy is a wasted feat in this build. FIrst reason....you need 10 uses of lay on hands when your using them on yourself to stay alive and getting extra smites with your Oath. Your not going to have 10 uses left to use on the feat when someone goes down this early. Perhaps wait till later levels when you have like 15+ uses of lay on hands...But even then you can cast Resurrection from a scroll with UMD and not waste your feats on a support feat.....focus on just YOUR combat and not playing front liner who runs off to heal people.

Dude. What is it with you and fey fondling? This is a family board, you know.

Grand Lodge

fixed it....sorry I'm not the prefect typist.

But every bit of it was legit advice


Why the 18 Cha though? With 18 Cha instead of 20, I get +1 initiative and AC and +8 health, which is good and all but -1 to willsave because of the Paladin's class feature, as 20 charisma gives +5 to all saves. Furthermore, it also gives me +1 attack and +1 ac while smiting and the most important of all an extra lay in hands, meaning that I am losing out on those 8 health to potentially gain up to 40 with Fey Foundling. To be honest, I don't really see how sacrificing 2 Cha and gaining 2 Dex and con is a good deal :/

What is the tactics with wand of mirror image, though? I've never seen that before.

I took the concentration traits because I will be casting swift or faster action spells possibly in melee like Litany of Righteousness, Grace and Paladin's Sacrifice, which as far as I'm aware are still vulnerable to fizzling out if you fail the concentration check, which you can't really afford to since Paladin has very few spell slots

Grand Lodge

Quote:
I took the concentration traits because I will be casting swift or faster action spells possibly in melee like Litany of Righteousness, Grace and Paladin's Sacrifice, which as far as I'm aware are still vulnerable to fizzling out if you fail the concentration check, which you can't really afford to since Paladin has very few spell slots
CRB wrote:
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

Now drop that concentration trait. Plenty of better ones out there.

Quote:
What is the tactics with wand of mirror image, though? I've never seen that before.

UMD adds layered defense for you. It is a CHA based skill so you will be good at it.

Mirror Image offers Good amount miss chances making you much more survivable. But because you will be dishing damage with a 2 handed they will most likely keep trying to kill you because your an immediate threat.

There are many other spells out there you can get via wands and Scrolls:
Blur, Displacement, Fly, Haste, False Life, Defending Bone.

Quote:
Why the 18 Cha though? With 18 Cha instead of 20, I get +1 initiative and AC and +8 health, which is good and all but -1 to will save because of the Paladin's class feature, as 20 charisma gives +5 to all saves.

With:

Aura of Courage (Su), Divine Health (Ex), Mercy (Su), Spells, Aura of Resolve (Su)

That 1 less will save is not going to be that detrimental. Not to mention if you take my UMD advice you can magically up your saves with Magic Items and Scrolls of things like Heroism.

Quote:
Furthermore, it also gives me +1 attack and +1 ac while smiting

12 Dex gives you +1 AC ALL THE TIME and not just while smiting. I'd rather have it all the time.

You have me on the +1 to attack while smiting. But you should not have issue hitting with divine bond, weapon focus, and Full BaB. Even with power attack. If you miss your rolling terrible things like 3s. And I've seen paladins hit on 3s....But yeah that +1 is nice....I just feel +1 to hit isn't worth the Stat buy points.

Now my point: Your to hit is AMZING anyways....and you can't smite everything. Plenty of un-smitable targets that the +1 to hit is not going to come into effect like the +1 to AC against these targets.

Quote:
the most important of all an extra lay in hands, meaning that I am losing out on those 8 health to potentially gain up to 40 with Fey Foundling.

That is 8 health now but it is +1 HP per Level. That extra health will keep you conscious enough to use those lay on hands. It is also 2 hp in the negatives that keep you effectively alive.

Being alive and conscious to use that lay on hands is just as important as having plenty of uses of LoH. 8 Lay on hands is good and plenty for 8th level. You are suppose to be healing between battles as well with a wand of cure light wounds. Your not trying to be the group healer...just something to give you another turn to bring the evil down. Invest in a Silver Smite Bracelet and gain faster smite progression and don't worry about that 1 lay on hands. This is also why I said ditch the Ultimate mercy feat...its worthless to you....it would use ALL your uses in a day and most likely you will have used a few up.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ultimate Mercy for a PFS build is very, very appreciated at the table. Otherwise, it's just a Raise Dead spell you're not likely to get off in combat much. If you don't have a cleric available...sure, take it, your party needs it.
If you have a cleric who can memorize Breath of Life, then you probably don't.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

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Of note - if you're actually starting at level 8 - you can get a few more stat points out of it by starting both Strength and Charisma at odd values and putting one level up point in each.

Curious - what point buy is it? I read 18 points - but that seems odd. I think you may have miscalculated.

If it's 20 point buy - try

Str 20 (start at 15, +2 racial, +1 from level up, and a belt +2)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 10
Cha 18 (start at 15, +1 from level up and a headband +2)

Though you could easily switch Int & Wis.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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He needs the skill point more then the +1 to will saves.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

He needs the skill point more then the +1 to will saves.

==Aelryinth

Debatable - depends upon the rest of the group - I was just making sure that it had the same saves as the original build.

Grand Lodge

Either way the OP asked for advice and 5 people recommend scaling back abit on the point buy to have a balanced well stated out paladin.

3 of those 5 specifically mention upping dex, con.

2 of them favor int over wisdom. 1 prefers a higher wis. The other 2 im not sure.

I like the skill point for the 3 best skills umd, diplomacy and perception.

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