Help with homebrew race.


Homebrew and House Rules


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Hello all first time posting on the site here so not sure if I am in the right spot here. But I was needing some assistance with a home brew race I am working on. I'm not sure if this has been done just yet or not but I am working on a Thallid race build. Now I used the info from advanced race guide to help me make what I have so far and wanted some input and tips on it.

Now I am sure that most people are familiar with the Thallid from MtG. If not the basics of the backstory is that they a race of fungal creatures that were grown as a food source by elves during a vast ice age. They eventually rebelled and destroyed the elves. They are very hard to kill as they are very resistant to damage and they heal very quickly. As they were bred to do to survive the cold. They also have a very unique ability to grow other creatures called Saprolings (which I would love some help designing as no clue how to start) which are almost like seeds but are also like food. They use these as an overwhelming swarm to attack their foes. They are fairly small but the numbers make up for it. Now the original card has every turn you gain a spore counter and when you have 3 spore counters you can summon a Saproling token. I figured I would represent this by have it work that 3 times a day they gain a spore growth and for every spore they can spawn 1 Saproling. They would last until killed. And you can spawn a Saproling as full round action and you can only have up to your constitution modifier worth of spores at any one time. Then the race itself would have +2 constitution to represent hardiness. +2 to wisdom for the lessons that were hard earned through generations of slavery and slaughter for food by not just the elves but any other "civilized" peoples who came upon them. And then -2 to dexterity to show that while hardy they are slow moving and slow to react. They would be plant and gain all normal benefits. They would have 20 base speed as they are slow. And size medium. Natural armor +2. And fast healing 5 since they are so difficult to kill that usually the only reliable method was fire or overwhelming force. The ability to speak with plants at all times like with plantspeech. And when in their natural habitat of forests or jungles they gain a +4 to stealth checks. Since they have little to know need to know many other languages I would have them know only their own language to start and with a high enough intelligence score can learn more. Most would learn common, slyvan and elvish. Well I think thats about it.

Please if I can have some help with this like constructive criticism or tips. It would be most appreciated. Thank you for any all help I get and please be gentle. lol


Is this meant to be a playable race, or an NPC race? Because if it is meant to be playable, then they are extremely high on the power curve.

First off, fast healing 1 is immensely powerful for PCs. It throws off the balance of the game, particularly at low levels. Making it fast healing 5 is just ridiculous.

The summoning ability is hard to gauge fairly without seeing the stats on what it is summoning. If it is essentially a skinned version of unseen servant, it's probably ok, but if it is a summon monster spell equivalent, then it is probably OP at low levels and useless at higher levels.

If you want this to be a playable race, I recommend dropping fast healing, or limiting it to something along the lines of 2 hp per HD per day, and possibly with limits on the circumstances when it can be used. Maybe drop the natural armor down to one as well.

For concepts that require high power abilities, I recommend making a balanced race that matches the flavor as best you can, and then unlocking the more powerful abilities through feats.

As it stands, this is a monstrous race, and probably not fit for a typical party. That's not inherently bad mind you, sometimes GMs will allow players to have a minotaur or pixie in the party, particularly if everyone is playing something along those lines. But for most games, its just not gonna be a good idea.

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I agree with everything Makeitstop says, but I also have the following points to add.

1) An at-will fast healing breaks the game because the game works by having every encounter drain your resources (hit points). If you can heal completely after every encounter, it totally throws that out of whack.

2) Being a plant is a great boon for a PC because it grants blanket immunity to many effects, such as paralysis, stunning, and mind-affecting effects. These kind of abilities often spell the death for a normal PC, so having immunity to them is extremely valuable.

3) Treespeech is a deceptively powerful ability and absolutely broken if done at-will, especially at low levels. It means a character always has a reliable source of information about any place they go that has plants.

4) My advice is to pick out one or two aspects of the race you like the most, design the mechanics, and then build the rest of the race around it.

This is all assuming this is a PC race.


Paizo released a race building guide (i think) in the ARG, you can find it here
As for the fast healing, having witnessed first hand its versatility and power, it really isn't all that game-breaking. So what you heal HP at the end of every battle, you don't recover spells, or x-per-day abilities. If your a barbarian, fighter, or rogue someone might believe it to be OP but honestly if you just keep it at fast healing 1 or 2, everything should be fine. You have to remember nothing has that much HP. CR 20 monsters have around 400ish HP, by that time, with the right feats, PCs can deal 200+ per round. I've done it, and with a party of 4-5 it gets to the point where Healing is negligible unless it completely or mostly heals you.
So yea, I would recommend fast healing 2


As Cyrad said, don't try to recreate this too closely. If you're not familiar with Paizo's race building tools then look them up online or in the Advanced Race Guide (ARG) Keep in mind that - in general - playable classes are built with about 10 Race Points (RP).

Ditch the fast healing altogether. This is an ability best saved for powerful enemies and spells with a limited duration. If you want to include the ability, or something like it, I suggest one of the following:
-Once per day the create can activate Fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to it's Hit Dice.
-Work the ability into natural healing. Maybe the healing the occurs as a result of the heal skill and resting for 8 or 24 hours is increased by 25% or 50%. This would be negligible at early levels, but when it has some more levels and maybe a party member who is pretty handy with the Heal skill it will become useful. Not as good as spells, but its something.

You should ditch the saproling thing too. This is basically simulating what can be done with class levels or by a monster with enough Hit Dice. If you like, work it into a racial archetype.

I like the ability score mods, and I like the Stealth bonus. I really dislike that so many homebrewed races have a unique language, but using sylvan is very appropriate.


I think there's a pretty good consensus here. Lose the fast healing, maybe lower the natural armor and get rid of the saporlings.

If you must have fast healing, make it a racial feat, and make it fast healing 1 whenever they are below 1 hp. They get to be the flavor of unkillability, but still need to worry about healing. And if they are weak to something, make that cancel the fast healing for a round ala regeneration. If there is no weakness, limit it to HD + constitution score, or make the prerequisites pretty harsh.

If you need to have summoning and cant settle for a raciao archetype, give tyem a +1 caster level bonus to summoning spells, and maybe feats to unlock SLAs.


Hmmm so maybe what I should do is make it fast healing 2 and natural armor of 1. Cause the fluff for the race is such that, to me atleast, it suggests that they are extremly hardy creatures. And this lead to the inability of the elves to successfully control their population and allowed them to overcome the predations of other races. But maybe add the stipulation that they can only have fast healing 2 when on natural earth. And they are meant to be playable but monsturous. I understand that they may be higher power at the start but honestly from my experience things that are higher powered at low levels tend to matter less with each new level you gain. And I am still working on the Saprolings but they are going to be something really small. Like size tiny. Not much power or anything. The main threat they pose is in numbers and durability.


Sorry Ciaran Barnes and Entil'Zha I didnt get to read your posts. My browser didnt even show your posts yet. Stupid work computers.


Oh! I really like the suggestion of making it only when they drop below 1 hp. I would have never thought to even do that. I have no idea what I'm doing do I? lol Well they are described as being kinda weak to fire so I figure fire and acid negate the healing when hit by the damage type and maybe add that they do double damage to add a larger handicap? And in regards to Sylvan as a language I felt it fit rather well myself. I was very hesitant to give their own language but I figure they havent had much chances to learn another groups languages as a mainstay. Since everyone just wants to kill and eat them. And I understand the Saproling thing may seem like a weird and hard to use mechanic but it's kind central to what they are and do. How can we work this in? I powered it down about as much as I can figure and still have it be on their. These Saprolings are a part of them, they dont summon them. They grow them from their bodies. Maybe lower it to just 1 spore counter a day? Cause I figure at higher levels you can can get more bang for your buck out a of a spell. Maybe even at mid level. Maybe I'm going about this wrong. I just always see all these homebrew races and they always have these huge flashy abilities and I never really see much fush made about it. I figured this really wasnt asking much and that its more tied to fluff then to true battlefield powerhousing. Am I wrong? Please this is my first attempt at something like this and I am needing some help understanding how to determine if it's too op.


Ratet wrote:
I just always see all these homebrew races and they always have these huge flashy abilities and I never really see much fush made about it. I figured this really wasnt asking much and that its more tied to fluff then to true battlefield powerhousing. Am I wrong? Please this is my first attempt at something like this and I am needing some help understanding how to determine if it's too op.

Oh believe me, they make a fuss. sigh....

There's a few ways to look at the power of a race. The first is to use the race points system that others have mentioned. It's not a perfect system, as some traits are of uncertain value (spell like abilities are rated based on spell level, not the specific spell, which is very important) and of course, the combinations are just as important. One 10 RP race may be a lot more powerful than another if they are designed for it. But in general, they give you at least a vague indicator. Most playable races are within a few points of 10, and the upper limits what a sane GM will ever allow outside of a specialized campaign are closer to 20.

The other main way people balance races is the old school acid test, which is where you compare it to a human for a variety of character types and decide which one would be better. If you fairly consistently beat the human, you have an OP race. It's a bit simplistic, but it does work for races which are meant to be the equal of the core races.

Anyway, looking at your race as listed originally you had:

Type: Plant (10 RP)
Standard Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Dex (0 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base speed 20 (-1 RP)
Xenophobic Languages (-1 RP)

Defense traits

Natural Armor +2 (3 RP)
Fast Healing 5 (40 RP)

Skill Traits

Camouflage (1 RP)

Magic Traits

Constant speak with plants (? RP)
Saproling (? RP)

As you can see, the fast healing is the big one. Take that away and its much closer to reasonable levels, though the saproling thing is still an unknown. There are no rules for constant spell-like abilities, but just 1/day would be 3 RP, so, it's definitely more than that.

Now if we switch it to fast healing 1 (fire and acid) when below 1 hp, it becomes a judgment call, but I'd estimate it to be something in the realm of 3 or 4 RP. There's similar temporary fast healing abilities, but they have very different limits. If we make it fast healing 2, I'd call it 6 or 7 RP. Knock 1 RP off if they have to be on natural soil.

Making it something that costs a feat would help keep the RP down.

As for saproling, might I suggest looking at the tumor familiar, and doing something like that, but limiting the familiar type to appropriate familiars. Again, this is a perfect racial feat.

Alternatively, skin unseen servant as a small plant creature but with basically the same rules, and make it a 1/day ability. I like the suggestion of a caster level bonus to summoning spells, so maybe add that, and make speak with plants work for a number of questions per day equal to half your level (minimum 1), and we'll call the whole thing 2 RP. Then you can take feats that add summoning spell-like abilities and other thematically appropriate abilities. Look at the Drow nobility line of feats for an excellent example of how to add abilities through feats.

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Cyrad wrote:
1) An at-will fast healing breaks the game because the game works by having every encounter drain your resources (hit points). If you can heal completely after every encounter, it totally throws that out of whack.

I agree that fast healing is a bad idea for a PC race, but disagree with the reason for that: Healing completely after every encounter is commonplace in Pathfinder. A party beyond first level is almost always able to completely heal after every encounter - they may not choose to do so, but the option is there. Wands of infernal healing and cure light wounds, potions of cure x, channeling, spontaneously converted cleric spells, and spells from other casters make it virtually impossible to completely run out of healing as long as the party is careful about it.

A character with fast healing is basically just saving the group money and slots. It's fairly overpowered, but because those cure light wounds wands add up to tens of thousands of gold, not because out-of-combat healing is a luxury.

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Homebrew races? Which ones? Most of the homebrew races I've seen on this forum were ridiculously powerful for a PC. I even saw one guy argue his race was perfectly balanced because it wasn't as powerful as the drow noble (his race turned out to be better than the drow noble).

Thallid honestly sounds like a monster race, not a PC, race to me. I do agree with the notion of having a single, interesting racial feature is way better than a collection of stat bonuses. So, centering the race around the saproling thing sounds like a way to go.

How about once per day as a standard action, the race can bud 1d3 saplings as an extraordinary ability. These saplings have the statistics of a dog that possesses the plant type. This racial trait would be the equivalent of a 2nd level SLA. Though it seems weak, being able to summon flanking buddies or trap decoys is a pretty nice boon.

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Gark the Goblin wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
1) An at-will fast healing breaks the game because the game works by having every encounter drain your resources (hit points). If you can heal completely after every encounter, it totally throws that out of whack.

I agree that fast healing is a bad idea for a PC race, but disagree with the reason for that: Healing completely after every encounter is commonplace in Pathfinder. A party beyond first level is almost always able to completely heal after every encounter - they may not choose to do so, but the option is there. Wands of infernal healing and cure light wounds, potions of cure x, channeling, spontaneously converted cleric spells, and spells from other casters make it virtually impossible to completely run out of healing as long as the party is careful about it.

A character with fast healing is basically just saving the group money and slots. It's fairly overpowered, but because those cure light wounds wands add up to tens of thousands of gold, not because out-of-combat healing is a luxury.

Let me clarify. The ability to always completely heal after combat for free breaks the game. All of the things you mention (wands, healing magic, etc) are limited resources costing either money or precious daily uses of abilities. And often these things require the party to plan before the adventure or at the start of the day. Just as you say.


Makeitstop wrote:


Defense traits

Natural Armor +2 (3 RP)
Fast Healing 5 (40 RP)

As you can see, the fast healing is the big one. Take that away and its much closer to...

Fast Healing wrote:

Fast Healing (6 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race regain 1 hit point each round. Except for where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a member of this race dies, at which point the effects of fast healing immediately end.
Special: This trait can be taken multiple times. Each time fast healing is taken, its cost increases by 1 RP.

I have no idea where you got 40 RP from...

EDIT: I misread, 6+7+8+9+10=40 I gotcha now


I have to go to work, I will work on this race when I get back and show you the RP that is spent with varying abilities and traits. This way you can compare and contrast which abilities are necessary and which are OP
I actually kind of need this type of race for a campaign I'm doing: Mongi, the anthropomorphic mushrooms :D


Ok so what we have so far is Plant type for 10 rp. +2 con +2 wis -2 dex for 0rp. Slow speed for -1rp. Size medium for 0rp. Xenophobic languages for -1rp. Natural armor 1 for 2rp. Fast healing 1 that is only active when under 1 hp. And fire and acid negate it. All for 4rp cause of 2 drawbacks. Camouflage in forests and jungles for 2rp. Add +1 caster level for all summoning spells and spells in the plant domain for 2rp. The ability to ask plants questions 1x a day. You can can ask up to half your level to a minimum of 1. And round down. For 1rp. They will have an elemenatl vulnribilty to fire and acid for -4rp. As a standard action 1x day they can bud 1d3 Saprolings that will last until killed. Same stats as a dog but plant type. Should we make it so they can be the subject of anything that can affect you for the purposes of spells abilities and the like or no? For 3rp. That sound about right? Anything I miss? To much? By my calculations it would be 18rp or so. With all that. How does that seem? Also should we drop the racial language?

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It's better you list it off.


I'm a little confused Cyrad. Are you saying its better now? Or are you saying I need to list it off better? Sorry for having to ask. Me a little slow today. lol

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List the abilities rather than shove them into a big paragraph.


Oh! Ok makes sense. Sorry about that.

Plant type for 10 rp.

+2 con +2 wis -2 dex for 0rp.

Slow speed for -1rp.

Size medium for 0rp.

Xenophobic languages for -1rp.

Natural armor 1 for 2rp.

Fast healing 1 that is only active when under 1 hp. And fire and acid negate it. All for 4rp cause of 2 drawbacks.

Camouflage in forests and jungles for 2rp.

Add +1 caster level for all summoning spells and spells in the plant domain for 2rp.

The ability to ask plants questions 1x a day. You can can ask up to half your level to a minimum of 1. And round down. For 1rp.

They will have an elemenatl vulnribilty to fire and acid for -4rp.

As a standard action 1x day they can bud 1d3 Saprolings that will last until killed. Same stats as a dog but plant type. (Should we make it so they can be the subject of anything that can affect you for the purposes of spells abilities and the like or no?) For 3rp.

How's this? Is it a little clearer to see everything? Not trying to be a tool I'm being serious. I really wanna do what I can to make it easier.


Looks a lot better. I just have one concern. The saprolings last "until killed" which is going to be a problem. As written, that means you can build an army. A week of travelling means arriving with 21 new minions. Given that a campaign can last months or years in-universe, that's a big deal.

I would suggest making them last for 1 round a level, or even a number of rounds equal to your constitution modifier plus your level. Or just one minute. Enough to last a fight, but not permanent, or all day. Make people decide when to use the ability.


Plants lack wisdom scores:

Plant:
Plant (10 RP)

This type encompasses humanoid-shaped vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as those found in ordinary gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

A plant race has the following features:

Plants have the low-light vision racial trait.
Plants are immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Plants are immune to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning.
Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from this activity. This means that a plant creature can sleep in order to regain spells, but sleep is not required to survive or stay in good health.

So you could just leave it with the solid +2 to Con or do +2 Con / -2 Dex still. your choice.

Slow speed makes sense too seeing as they are fungi, are they meant to be anthropomorphic with actual legs? or do they stand on leg-shaped roots or the like.

Natural Armor: seems like you want to add some extra bulk to these guys, seeing as they are plants it is reasonable, though perhaps not through the means of Natural Armor (which is generally connected with tough hide or hardened scales, which plants have neither of unless you are going for a treant-like being) there are a few other defense traits that would work better for your idea:

Bond to the Land (2 RP):

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC when in a specific terrain type selected from the ranger's list of favored terrains. This choice is made at character creation, and cannot be changed.

Stability (1 RP):

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.

Xenophobia is perfect for any plant-like race. keep it

Fast Healing: this is the pricy one, the only thing is I am think you want them to also regrow limbs and the like, which would have to be regeneration not fast healing, though there is no official RP value for regeneration.

As for the asking plants question, just give it Treespeech (2 RP) it can talk to plants at will.

I would give it vulnerability to fire and cold or just fire. Acid is earth element, which they are kind of affiliated with.

For the spawns try this:

Spell-Like Ability, Lesser (Variable, see Special):

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Choose a 2nd-level or lower spell that does not attack a creature or deal damage. Members of this race can use this spell as a spell-like ability once per day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the user's character level.
Special: This trait costs as many RP as the level of the spell chosen (minimum 1 RP). This trait can be taken up to three times. Each time you take an additional spell, adjust the RP cost of this trait appropriately.


Summon Minor Ally:

School conjuration (summoning); Level druid 1, ranger 1

CASTING
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, DF

EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 1d3 summoned creatures
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as summon nature’s ally I, except you can summon 1d3 Tiny or smaller animals, such as bats, lizards, monkeys, rats, ravens, toads, or weasels. The summoned animals must all be the same type of creature.

*Just make the spell only summon plants instead of animals*

EDIT: Almost forgot the camouflage:

Camouflage (1 RP):

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Choose a ranger favored terrain type. Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within that terrain type.


You might also think about adding a resistance to electricity. just food for thought

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Ratet, that's still 18 RP. That's a high powered PC race. I also feel having the saprolings last until killed and get targeted by Personal spells is way too much and way undervalued. Especially when the race already gets a lot of goodies. Always stablize. Natural armor. Tons of immunities.


Ok. So the being able to be the target of personal spells was a suggestion anyway and I thought it would balance out since I was going to have it go both ways. You hit the Sap with a spell and anything that effects it effects the race. And vice versa. But just an thought anyway. Wasnt invested in it.

Hmmm...I get the feeling everybody feels that the idea of, what are essentionally dogs staying alive is bad. I have only my previous gaming experience to go off of. In my experience games that have anything like companions, cohorts, familiars, and summoned creatures last little more than one encounter at best. I once had a party member that had to raise/bring back from the brink his wolf companion after almost every battle just cause it was so fragile. Does everyone have this experience or just me? lol

The point being is that the Saps are suppossed to be an evergrowing swarm of creatures that overwhelm but individually can be squashed under boot by a farmer. And I'm pretty sure they eventually become more Thallids anyway. I figured they would be nice to use in other roles other than in the middle of combat too. Like scouting or beasts of burden or food. I just don't like the thought of having them only last a few minutes.

What would be a good alternative?


Ratet wrote:

Ok. So the being able to be the target of personal spells was a suggestion anyway and I thought it would balance out since I was going to have it go both ways. You hit the Sap with a spell and anything that effects it effects the race. And vice versa. But just an thought anyway. Wasnt invested in it.

Hmmm...I get the feeling everybody feels that the idea of, what are essentionally dogs staying alive is bad. I have only my previous gaming experience to go off of. In my experience games that have anything like companions, cohorts, familiars, and summoned creatures last little more than one encounter at best. I once had a party member that had to raise/bring back from the brink his wolf companion after almost every battle just cause it was so fragile. Does everyone have this experience or just me? lol

The point being is that the Saps are suppossed to be an evergrowing swarm of creatures that overwhelm but individually can be squashed under boot by a farmer. And I'm pretty sure they eventually become more Thallids anyway. I figured they would be nice to use in other roles other than in the middle of combat too. Like scouting or beasts of burden or food. I just don't like the thought of having them only last a few minutes.

What would be a good alternative?

If you are wanting the ability to produce lots of baby thallids, you really don't have to even include it in the race traits or abilities. Just put it in the Ecology and Description. instead of summoning thats just their reproduction. Perhaps and Thallids that become druids or gain the ability to cast spells regarding summoning or nature, can speed up the growth process or force reproduction with spells at later levels.


And BigP4nda I thought they way that read was that regular plants have no wisdom or charisma. And that these are plant creatures which did. Did I misread?

The way they look can vary a little bit but by and large they are vaguely humanoid shaped. I have Ghave The Guru of Spores in my head for the look. Granted I love the Mycoloth and Feral thallid look too. They have legs but they lack feet and are almost like roots. The reason I picked natural armor was to show that they are very hardy. Not that they are hard or anything but that they were picked for being hardy fungi. And seeing that they were made during an ice age I felt cold would be a bad one to use. I picked acid since it is the other element that destroys completely.

I would love it if they could go with regen but it's not an option. No reprisintation in the book and very powerful.


I am trying to find some plant races in paizo products, I thought i remembered seeing one.
Another question: are you meaning for these to be PC races or as enemies?


And I don't know if that's how they reproduce or not. I said I was pretty sure. Nothing to really back it. Just a theory.

And I feel that they can be both and be the same level. I feel no need to power it down just cause it's a player race and power it up cause it's an enemy. I don't think I should have to sacrifice fluff just to make a race closer in power to human. They aren't humans. What's wrong with making something more with the tools this wonderful game has given? I really do appreciate the help and input of everybody. But maybe someone can answer this for me. And I wish to continue to refine this and make it happen. But I just don't understand why everyone is against making it match the fluff. If they are so powerful you don't have to use them and if you do, throw bigger stuff at em. That's what my GM always does. He makes the campaign match you. Not the other way around.

My point being can someone please explain why the Saproling thing is so bad as is? What's wrong with it? Why is it so powerful? It seems that it is a good power level to me. Am I missing something?


And I have never found a plant creature race in their stuff. A few creatures yeah. But the closest I have found was vegepygmy. And I don't think they were ever made into a playable race.

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Ratet wrote:

Hmmm...I get the feeling everybody feels that the idea of, what are essentionally dogs staying alive is bad. I have only my previous gaming experience to go off of. In my experience games that have anything like companions, cohorts, familiars, and summoned creatures last little more than one encounter at best. I once had a party member that had to raise/bring back from the brink his wolf companion after almost every battle just cause it was so fragile. Does everyone have this experience or just me? lol

The point being is that the Saps are suppossed to be an evergrowing swarm of creatures that overwhelm but individually can be squashed under boot by a farmer. And I'm pretty sure they eventually become more Thallids anyway. I figured they would be nice to use in other roles other than in the middle of combat too. Like scouting or beasts of burden or food. I just don't like the thought of having them only last a few minutes.

What would be a good alternative?

Familiars and animal companions are class features, not racial traits. Having cohorts and summons is really strong. This is why nearly all summon spells have a duration in rounds per level. Having lots of creatures is also kind of annoying for everyone at the table.

PC races gain their power through class levels. That's how the game works. You're trying to make what probably should be an NPC monster race defined by racial HD into a PC defined by class level while still keeping the monstrous abilities. I suppose you could make a high powered PC race, but eh..

A good alternative is do what Ciaran Barnes and Makeitstop suggest. Make a balanced PC race and have other abilities unlocked through class archetypes and feats. Honestly, the whole concept would be perfect for a broodmaster summoner. A standard Thallid could have a saproling ability that works on par with a 1st or 2nd level summoning spell. A Thallid summoner archetype would replace that ability with the ability to make creatures created through the summon monster SLA class feature gain the plant type. A thallid summoner with this homebrew archetype combined with the broodmaster archetype would be a spitting image of what you're trying to accomplish.


18 RP is not bad at all. It is very playable at that level. I've run two campaigns with significant RP disparities with no problem. The super high fast healing was the main kicker for me.

However, that saplings ability might be strong. At low levels, I'd summon my 1d3 saplings and buff them to overwhelm the enemy. That sapling ability might be better as a racial feat. I'd suggest using the Kitsune's Magical Tail feat as a template. It allows the player to get 2 of an SLA per day (such as Summon Natures Ally I for your guy instead of Disguise self or charm person).


Saprolings
Since you insist on including this ability, I have suggestions.

1) Make it so the Thallid cannot have more than 1 saproling per Hit Dice it has.
2) Make them tiny instead of small. I always imagined Thallids as being large, so making the saprolings two size categories smaller is fitting, and more palatable balance-wise.
3) Decide on the saprolings relationship with the Thallid. Are they free willed, mindless servants, indifferent, friendly, or what?
3) Instead of simply them falling off his body like shedding hair, add in some kind of consequence such as HP loss, Constitution damage, or fatigue, etc.
4) Perhaps the Thallid has to plan on sprouting these ahead of time. It might take a day or more depending on how weak or strong they are. Is there some kind of fertilization process?

I might also make the Thallid incapable of speech (without magic), but able to communicate telepathically with other plants.


Ratet wrote:
But I just don't understand why everyone is against making it match the fluff.

It's a trade off. Crunch and fluff are both important. Things that are cool in the fluff don't always make for the best crunch, and often require a bit of tweaking to reach good, solid design.

If, for example, you wanted to make kryptonians, you would have to be crazy to try making them a playable race with the abilities they possess in the fluff, and justify it based on the need to be an accurate depiction. In a superhero game, where everyone is able to pick up sky scrapers and beat their enemies with them, this would be a different story, but in a more conventional pathfinder game, it is an issue.

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If they are so powerful you don't have to use them and if you do, throw bigger stuff at em. That's what my GM always does. He makes the campaign match you. Not the other way around.

Obviously we don't need to use them if we don't like them, but you asked for advice, and balance is part of the design process. If you had said you were planning to make a monstrous race with a target of 30 RP, then you would get different responses, but in the absence of such a goal, people fall back on what they believe to be reasonable power levels.

Even then, people will point out things which they think are exploitable. An ever growing horde is one of those things. Classes that get minions, summons and other forms of creatures to command always have limits and trade offs. Your animal companion dies, it hurts you for a while. Summoners can't have an eidolon and summoned creatures out at the same time. Making an army of skeletons will turn you evil, cost you money and the effort of acquiring corpses, risk some serious unwanted attention, and even then you have a hard limit to the number you can command. And because those are classes, you still have to give up all the other things you could have been, while racial abilities allow you to do both.

I think we've managed to get it down to a decent place. Short of changing the type from plant to something else, we aren't going to get the RP value much lower, and that's fine. But the summoning mechanic would really be better as something along the lines of tumor familiar, which is permanent, singular, and not combat ready, or a summoning spell which is temporary but useful on the battlefield. And either would be more reasonable as an ability requiring a feat.

Let the base creature be a developing version which has yet to reach its full potential. Then through feats and/or archetypes, let it unlock that full potential. You get the balance and the flavor. Everybody wins.

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Makeitstop wrote:
Let the base creature be a developing version which has yet to reach its full potential.

That's a good way to think of it. Remember that as a PC race, every racial trait is an ability the character gets at 1st level. So each race ability should be something reasonable for a 1 HD creature to have. Even monsters follow this rule. Are you going to find a 1 HD dragon with a breath weapon doing 5d6 damage? No, because that's not something a 1 HD creature would have.


I thank everyone for trying explain this to me. I didnt mean to sound rude or ungrateful if that's how it came across. I'm just really confused by the whole thing. And why are people saying monstrous race like a curse? I did ask for advice and I feel I have done well in taking it. I have lowered a lot of the powers that I had and we even came up with what I feel are some more fluffy options. Like the fast healing one. You all have been an huge help with this and I feel like it is in a much better place now.

Everyone keeps speakin about using feats and archetypes instead. I thought those were suppossed to represent special training or alternate ways that you do things within a class. I didnt think that would even apply for something that was in regards to a racial ability. Am I wrong in how I am thinkin of them?


Ratet wrote:
Everyone keeps speakin about using feats and archetypes instead. I thought those were suppossed to represent special training or alternate ways that you do things within a class. I didnt think that would even apply for something that was in regards to a racial ability. Am I wrong in how I am thinkin of them?

Most feats can be thought of as training and experience, though this doesn't have to be the case. Toughness might represent training, or it might just be your natural biology.

With racial feats in particular though, they skew much more heavily toward biology. Humans with racial heritage didn't train to be descended from other races. Dhampirs probably never had to study how to have fangs. Grippli probably didn't spend months working to lengthen their tongues to 10 feet.

The best example for what we are dealing with here is probably the drow. Drow nobles are extremely powerful beings with inherent abilities that are unsuitable for normal playable race. So the nobility feats were created to simulate the gradual emergence of those abilities. They aren't learned, they are in your blood.

The feat tax keeps things fair, forces choices, and delays the abilities until an appropriate level is reached.

As for archetypes, they can be anything. Natural abilities, intense training, or just buying stuff, describe it however you want. The bonus for racial archetypes is that you can tailor them to a specific race, and generally assume that the character has specific abilities to expand on and modify.


Ok so you have to imagine it in the world your placing it and wonder would they dominate? Is that I need to do? Like you said with the kryptonians. If they were in Pathfinder or DnD the Tarrasque wouldn't be a problem. Ok I'll try that and still see if it makes sense.

Ok so the main problem is they dont have some inherent limiter? But wouldnt the squishyness count? And I figured that the party could eat them if needed. Trail rations suck. lol My play group usually end up eating things that probably shouldnt be eaten. We somehow always forget to get enough food.

And so should I sit down and look over all these other races and compare and contrast and see if it works? Maybe build a character and see how it does in a little 1 or 2 person adventure? Or is it still not ready for that? It's my first time and I dont know when you need to playtest.

Makeitstop could you expand on when you said let it develop to it's full potential? Like I said I'm lost when you say archetypes and feats in regards to what a race can do. I understand perfectly in regards to a class but not race.

Ciaran Barnes you have some awesome ideas. I like the idea of making them unable to communicate with other races. It would also go a long to explaining why they can never be taken seriously by other races as being sentient and stil being considered food. Also I dont think many plant creature have the ability to talk anyway. Maybe I'm wrong. I figured they were pretty mindless myself. Like no actual drive on their own. They are directed by the Thallids. You were thinking of them as large? Would that fit better or not? I also always figured Saps as really small like the size of a large house cat or small dog. But I aint really to sure on how big that would be either small or tiny I know. But not sure were the line is drawn for the smaller things. In the fluff it was just something that happened at all times. Like a tree bearing fruit. Except all the time to provide more food. But I like the idea of making a drawback and limiting based on HD. But what kind of a drawback? Would Making them take HP loss equal to the amount of HP of the total number of Saps be good? So like say they each have 6 HP as example and you summon 2 you would take 12 HP loss. Or maybe you are fatigued for 2 minutes for each Sproling they bud? So as in prev example of 2 of them you would be fatigued for 4 minutes.

I'm trying really hard to make this work and not be over powered. How do those sound? Good or still not enough?


Here's a thought. It may not be exactly in line with the original fluff of the thallids. But what if the spawning of saps worked like dividing itself into smaller pieces? Each on is a fraction of itself and the more it produces the weaker he gets himself.
To explain the drawback in mechanical terms: each sap produced causes the thallid to gain a negative level. This way the saps could be a little stronger as well to keep things balanced


Ratet wrote:
Ok so you have to imagine it in the world your placing it and wonder would they dominate? Is that I need to do? Like you said with the kryptonians. If they were in Pathfinder or DnD the Tarrasque wouldn't be a problem. Ok I'll try that and still see if it makes sense.

That's one way to look at it. But even if they aren't in world domination territory, you still have to deal with how well they work with the rest of the party. Balancing an encounter to challenge the high power character without certainly killing the low power character can be difficult, and even if the low power character can survive, it sucks to not be able to contribute. And that's not taking into consideration the need to avoid coming off as contrived for your encounters. Going back to the superhero analogy, only so many encounters can involve criminals who carry kryptonite and escape by boat, or even the guy playing aquaman will call b*!**&%%.

It can be done, but the greater the disparity, the more difficult the task.

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Ok so the main problem is they dont have some inherent limiter? But wouldnt the squishyness count? And I figured that the party could eat them if needed. Trail rations suck. lol My play group usually end up eating things that probably shouldnt be eaten. We somehow always forget to get enough food.

Being squishy only helps so much. Against a large enemy with a limited number of attacks, the squishy little things can be overwhelming. And if you can buff them, they get that much more dangerous. Swarm tactics are very much a thing. Hell, even at tiny size, they can prevent small and medium size characters from moving through their space, meaning a small swarm gives you battlefield control in a majority of combats.

Much better to simply limit the number. It's less work for everyone involved, and there' a lot less potential for abuse.

Quote:
And so should I sit down and look over all these other races and compare and contrast and see if it works? Maybe build a character and see how it does in a little 1 or 2 person adventure? Or is it still not ready for that? It's my first time and I dont know when you need to playtest.

Playtesting is fine at any stage if you have the time and willing participants. I have finished races which have yet to see testing, and races in need of expansion and revision which have seen considerable use.

Really, I think aside from nailing down the details of the saproling thing, and giving the abilities proper names, it is in a playable shape.

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Makeitstop could you expand on when you said let it develop to it's full potential? Like I said I'm lost when you say archetypes and feats in regards to what a race can do. I understand perfectly in regards to a class but not race.

Well, with humans, we tend to think of them reaching adulthood, and then becoming adventurers, and that's it. But with some races, the point at which they can become adventurers is not the end of their development. This is one of the ways in which more powerful beings can be made playable.

By taking the abilities which are inappropriate for a level 1 character, and hiding them behind feats, we can simulate the growth and development of a character into the being the fluff describes. Again, the drow are a perfect example of this. A drow noble character was always a drow noble, but the power associated with nobility only emerged as they took the feats.

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