concerns over early experiences


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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Hi - I'm a MMO veteran (EQ, EQ2, DAOC, Conan, Rifts, Guild Wars, WOW, Star Wars). I'm also a Kickstarter backer, with a 100 dollar pledge.

My first foray into Early enrollment has not been positive. Using a top line Lap top, I have not been impressed with anything. Understanding its a sandbox, I went into this expecting different...but not what I found.

1. Movement is so difficult. I can't take a few steps without the camera angle changing. Just moving across the world is nearly impossible and trying to have a combat is really dangerous given I can't control where I'm facing.

(I tried looking for settings to turn down the sensitivity of the mouse or keyboard, but it's not in the settings...)

2. Three choices of characters is disappointing. Not a deal breaker, but with so many options in Pathfinder...Elf, Dwarf and Human is all we get? And the customization options are so old school. So many newer games have done this better.

3. I know this is a classless type of game, but there are so many trainers in the game, it's mind numbing. So, I ran around getting them to train me and added a whole bunch of stuff...none of which seemed to actually do anything for me. I seemed to get some passive abilities and 1 or 2 active abilities, but by and large, not too much else.

4. How do I use Potions? I have a few but can't swing using them...

5. The color pallet for some text boxes are terrible. The RED is extremely hard to read, and I'm not Red/Green Color blind. I wonder how hard it is for those folks.

6. The maps are terrible. The map of town doesn't show you where you are...so it's difficult to figure you out where you are without trying to find a landmark. The other map, which can be zoomed, just really shows dots for NPC's and PC's. Red for bad guys, pale for good. There are some vague symbols on them too, but I guess I'm too zoomed out to read them. It so hard to view them and figure out which guys are people you need to talk to.. and which ones are just guards.

There are other things, but these are my immediate issues. I've wandered around, killed some beasts (having gotten a single bit of loot doing that btw) and just became more frustrated at the difficulties I'm having moving around and controlling my toon.

I'm posting here, not to slam the game, but to try and figure out how to deal with these situations. I'm already an investor and want to get some degree of value out of my investment.

Thanks,

Arkobla

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

1. I'm not sure what's causing this problem. Hold the left mouse button and drag to rotate the camera, hold the right mouse button and drag to rotate your character. If you're walking through town, you may have cases where the camera moves closer to your character to avoid a building blocking your view. The one oddity that bugs me sometimes is that when you fire a melee weapon, your character can't move or rotate for a few seconds afterward. You can still rotate the camera with the left mouse button, though.

2. There are only three races so far, but there are more coming. When a race you want to play is introduced, you'll have an opportunity to turn one of your human/elf/dwarf characters into that race.

3. It's true, there are a ton of trainers, and it can be hard to figure out what to train. The new player tutorials should help with the basics. Several players are also working on unofficial new player guides. My favorite so far is Sspitfire's.

4. Open the Paper doll screen (P key, or the silhouette at the top left of the screen) and the Inventory screen (I key, or the sack icon at the top left of the screen). Potions will be shown in the Equipment tab or the All tab of the Inventory screen. Drag the potion you want to equip over one of the Wondrous Item slots to the right of your character in the Paper doll screen. To use the potion, hit the 9 or 0 keys (or the top two buttons in the square set of four on the hotbar).

5. There have been a lot of requests from players to let us set our own colors and adjust the opacity of the text boxes. Hopefully, Goblinworks will fix the chat soon.

6. Believe it or not, the light colored symbols for guards and trainers are new and improved. Until recently, guards had the same red icons as monsters, and trainers had no icons. PFO is very much a work in progress. The good part is that we see improvements and bug fixes in just about every patch.

Goblin Squad Member

I know you likely know this, but this is Early Enrollment and there is, as stated by GW in many places, a long, long time left for the game to be retail ready.

1) Movement is not perfect, but not horrible. There are some instances where interacting with spell effects (the frost bolt by Goblin Shamen come to mind) not only disorient your character, but strangely change the orientation of your mouse view. Causes death quite often.

2) The three that are in (Human, Dwarf, Elf) were the most popular, and Gnomes are in next (only just beating out Halflings). Other races will be introduced as the models can be developed and animated. All in good time, but not a priority according to public discussions.

3) There are some synergies in purchasing skills, feats etc... I would suggest reading some of the guides describing how to invest in a role by purchasing these skills in a pretty narrow category for the role you wish to play. You can't do it all, so specialization is required. Characters that can do a lot at lower levels will not be advancing in any skills as fast as those that focus on only a few skills.

4) Potions are supposed to be a working thing, but I have not used any yet. Someone else can flesh out that issue.

5) Yes, the color palate does need some fine tuning.

6) The maps are an early iteration of the tools they will later become. They are better than there have been, and are miles better than they were in Alpha. Be patient.

Your loot drops will not include armor. Armor was dropped for the first couple of weeks, but they should be crafted items so encourage the economy, and dropped right into your pack, sometimes overloading a character that had been in the field for a long time gathering loot. But there should be plenty of loot drops once you leave town. The starter goblins in town used to drop loot, but they were getting badly farmed, so now are for training only.


Did you read the new player guide that is linked to in the Launcher?

Goblin Squad Member

For issue #1, are you on a Mac? I found the mouse sensitivity so high on the Mac client that it was unplayable and I had to switch to Windows.

Goblin Squad Member

Arkobla Conn wrote:

Hi - I'm a MMO veteran (EQ, EQ2, DAOC, Conan, Rifts, Guild Wars, WOW, Star Wars). I'm also a Kickstarter backer, with a 100 dollar pledge.

My first foray into Early enrollment has not been positive. Using a top line Lap top, I have not been impressed with anything. Understanding its a sandbox, I went into this expecting different...but not what I found.

1. Movement is so difficult. I can't take a few steps without the camera angle changing. Just moving across the world is nearly impossible and trying to have a combat is really dangerous given I can't control where I'm facing.

First, "Top line laptop" doesn't help much. As I don't know what you consider "Top line" or how long ago it was "Top line" or in what country it was considered "Top line", so what are the specs?

More Specifically:
What model and how fast is the CPU?
What model and how much memory does the Graphics card have?
How much RAM do you have?

The movement issues you describe are exactly what you expect from someone using the mouse-look controls on a system that can't handle the game. Is it choppy? is there graphical lag? Is it still there while playing on the lowest graphics pre-set? Is it still there while playing on the highest graphics pre-set? (some games play better with high graphics, as it moves more load on the GPU)

If you can, take video of your screen (not screen capture, use a camera, screen capture reduces performance [unless you have a dedicated capture device]), and throw it on youtube for us to see.

Goblin Squad Member

1. Movement is so difficult.

One alternative is move with arrows or WASD + QE keys and use mouse to pan view and mouse wheel to zoom in/out. The one really annoying thing yet to be fixed is when you get too close to things the view zooms right in.

2. Three choices of characters is disappointing.

The current choices are mainly cosmetic gamewise as there is only a very slight advantage in some areas to playing certain races. Gnomes and halflings are apparently on the way. Do not expect to play a weird cat person or beholder anytime soon.

3. I know this is a classless type of game, but there are so many trainers in the game, it's mind numbing.

Before spending too much XP study up on keyword matching and feat/equipment synergy. Unlike normal MMOs advancing something like an attack feat or cantrip does nothing unless the appropriate weapon, armor or other bit of gear is also upgraded to match (and visa versa)

4. How do I use Potions? I have a few but can't swing using them...

They are slotted in the "paperdoll" equipping screen. Hit P then click drag the potion and the correct place will light up for you.

5. The color pallet for some text boxes are terrible. The RED is extremely hard to read, and I'm not Red/Green Color blind. I wonder how hard it is for those folks.

Yah - work in progress. UI colors and also the size of some in game messages is something that needs work.

6. The maps are terrible.

The main map is actually pretty useful and can be zoomed in.

The minimap is not really a map its a HUD/Radar display a bit like you might get in an aircraft or tank.

The settlement maps are only available for NPC towns and still need work. Basically tab or click a on a nearby trainer, see what his name is and track that down on the settlement map and orient yourself that way.

Goblin Squad Member

Also, if your killing the Goblins right outside of town (the Desperate ones) they are no longer dropping lot of any kind. Need to actually leave the town hex and fight some bandits, wolves, and normal gobs for loot.

Goblin Squad Member

My experience for probably the first week of playing was largely the same as yours, very frustrating. The number of feats at the start is overwhelming. They need to do something to make this easier for new players, though I'm not sure what that will be. Since so much to do with feats is based on matching keywords, I think that matching keyword highlighting will help. But I do also think they should somehow reduce the number of feats available at the start.

The map has gotten much better over time. You should have seen it 8 months ago when it was a single low res image that you couldn't zoom on. Give it time, it will get better.

At this point in the game, you really have to join other players to get some meaning in the game and to help understand some of the more complex systems. There really is a ton of depth to the system and the game will be very good soon IMHO (it's a fantastic core it just needs a lot of polish).

Goblin Squad Member

The graphics and limitations at this stage of the game can be somewhat jarring, but have faith that things have improved vastly in the last few months alone. The complexity of the systems is an acquired taste, but once you "get it" you will enjoy the endless learning process. PFO is a mocking joke of a game if you plan to play alone, but in a healthy sized group it is addictive.

The Exchange Goblin Squad Member

Thanks all - appreciate the responses. I will try loading this on my desktop which is even better. (I haven't found anything it can't run).
I do use the WASD keys for movement btw.

Goblin Squad Member

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Tyveil wrote:
My experience for probably the first week of playing was largely the same as yours, very frustrating. The number of feats at the start is overwhelming. They need to do something to make this easier for new players, though I'm not sure what that will be. Since so much to do with feats is based on matching keywords, I think that matching keyword highlighting will help. But I do also think they should somehow reduce the number of feats available at the start.

I thought this at the beginning, too, but kept my mouth shut until I had a better understanding of the game systems.

Now, I'm confident they could narrow down the number of combat feats (maybe attacks, armor, and role feature feats) for new players without making things 'weird' or 'unfair.' One option is to gate half of them behind Adventurer 1 (or 2), which should take minutes/hours for a new player, in which time they can get a handle on how combat works before they start getting into the details. A few hundred XP can be made up in a few hours.

Goblin Squad Member

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That actually makes a lot of sense. Gate all attacks except 2 primary and 2 secondary for each weapon type behind Adventurer 1. Also, put all the wand cantrips on the occultist and all the staff cantrips on the war wizard in order to remove that confusion.

Goblin Squad Member

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The early enrollment plan is a mixed bag. It is between beta and full release. It is beta in that many production features and tuning (like movement control and UI) are still very primitive or not even there. IT is full release in that there will not be any character wipe going forward.

The early game is overwhelming since there is very little guidance provided in game on what who and where. There is host of information in the new player guide and in other player made resources.

At this point I see the "New player Experience" as a lower priority then many other things that need attention. It isn't being ignored, there have a few tweaks with the intro quests in the past week, but there is still more room for improvement.

The game needs to be taken with quite a few grains of salt right now. And now is the time to bring up your views. Feedback is very important at this time.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't know.. I think the new player experience needs to be pretty high priority. It's the reason I gave up on Alpha and nearly gave up on EE as well. If I didn't find a good group of very helpful players (7th veil/Phaeros) I likely would have left again. People who give up on a game often don't come back because of that first impression. I'm willing to bet turnover at this point is still far higher than it needs to be. There are some really big bang for the buck items that could make the new player experience much better, namely gating feats and some better UI guidance on keyword matching. Tutorials can be lower priority.


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Quote:
Now, I'm confident they could narrow down the number of combat feats (maybe attacks, armor, and role feature feats) for new players without making things 'weird' or 'unfair.' One option is to gate half of them behind Adventurer 1 (or 2), which should take minutes/hours for a new player, in which time they can get a handle on how combat works before they start getting into the details. A few hundred XP can be made up in a few hours.
Quote:
That actually makes a lot of sense. Gate all attacks except 2 primary and 2 secondary for each weapon type behind Adventurer 1. Also, put all the wand cantrips on the occultist and all the staff cantrips on the war wizard in order to remove that confusion.

This!!!111!eleventy!!

The bombardment of confusing information right out of the gates is a big problem for new people. People buy skills they can't even use or get bonuses from yet because they don't know any better.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Tyveil wrote:
I don't know.. I think the new player experience needs to be pretty high priority. It's the reason I gave up on Alpha and nearly gave up on EE as well. If I didn't find a good group of very helpful players (7th veil/Phaeros) I likely would have left again. People who give up on a game often don't come back because of that first impression. I'm willing to bet turnover at this point is still far higher than it needs to be. There are some really big bang for the buck items that could make the new player experience much better, namely gating feats and some better UI guidance on keyword matching. Tutorials can be lower priority.

Agreed. I still haven't talked two of my crowdforger guild players into starting the game - and my nephew still hasn't upgraded his pledge to EE level - because they've watched the rest of us struggle to make sense of all the options. Yes, there are guides, but for a lot of players, reading a guide just to figure out how to make a halfway competent character is a huge turnoff. Gating feats, grouping them better, explaining keyword matching, anything to make people who hate having to read guides stick around long enough to get hooked would help.

Goblin Squad Member

Honestly, at this stage of development it's OK that the learning curve is somewhat Eve-like. The target market right now is the people who are excited enough to study all of the the available but scattered info and tolerate the rough edges and growing pains. Players who want or expect a polished, intuitive, AAA type experience are not going to enjoy their first month in PFO no matter how much easier we make the first hour.

The new player experience needs to get a LOT better before OE, but they have time to work on that.

Goblin Squad Member

My other reason for not focusing on the "new player experience" too much yet is more because the rest of the game is still in flux. And most new player issues are also general player UI issues.

For example, the UI for trainers is terrible. Even knowing what I want, it is very hard to figure out if I can get the feats I want, or what I will need.

Even putting in filters and sorts (show only Axe skills. Show feats for my next role level) would help everyone and not just the new player.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah the UI needs work. The request and agreement for the UI to show a count of points from each type of achievement or to somewhere show the full real number of your stats has been "in the pipe" for MONTHS and yet nary a word in the patch notes about it yet.

Goblin Squad Member

I play Pathfinder Online on a Microsoft Surface Pro 2.

If a tablet can deal with it, any top line laptop can handle it fine.

Goblin Squad Member

One more suggestion, run the game in windowed mode, not full screen. That seems to improve performance for a lot of people.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
One more suggestion, run the game in windowed mode, not full screen. That seems to improve performance for a lot of people.

Which sucks, I hate windowed mode.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
One more suggestion, run the game in windowed mode, not full screen. That seems to improve performance for a lot of people.

Which is fortunate, as I like having mumble, spreadsheets showing crafting requirements, browser-based information pertaining to my guildsettlement, and my Amazon music all available as I play, without a lot of alt-tabbing.

Goblin Squad Member

My mouse doesn't line up right on full screen so I always have to play PFO in windowed mod3.

Goblin Squad Member

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Agreed, too much is available for the new player to purchase. I pretty much spent all the EE XP to buy, well, *every* skill available at every trainer. I thought "This'll help me figure out how I actually want to play!" Nope. Couldn't even figure out which "active feats" could be used as main attacks, and which as secondary -- no highlighting or other indicators.

Yes, it's early, but when a veteran MMO and D&D/PFRPG player cna't quite figure out how to attack, perhaps a little more effort might be spent?

Goblin Squad Member

The backlog XP is special case. Going forward new character/players will only have 1000 XP. So the "lost XP" should they just buy what they can at the start will not be a big loss over time.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah part of the issue at the moment is people logging in with way to much XP and no idea where to put it. That issue will solve itself in a few days time.

However +1 on the idea to gate training on new characters to a few seminal attacks etc until they achieve a few adventure points. It will also give them a sense of achievement when they kill that first 20 goblins and see all the choices start to open up.

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