To Sleeve or not to Sleeve......that is the question....


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion


Ok...I know this is a never-ending discussion...just curious, I would like to hear from anyone that has not sleeved their cards. Are the cards holding up ok? I have first card game paranoia! Lol. There seems to be alot of of shuffling etc... I realize they are not collectible cards but I want to be able to play for a long time. I hear people talk about the cards chipping, etc.
Just me worrying....Thanks.


Oops....sorry...posted this in the wrong forum.


I only played a few sessions of RotR with unsleeved cards before I noticed wear and tear on the cards. The edges did start to chip. The real clincher, however, on my decision to sleeve was when I accidentally bent the corner on a Siren. That's a real "gotcha" monster (one of the few that troubles Valeros) and I didn't want to see it coming.

Sleeving is expensive, but I'm glad I did it.

That being said, I play OP with an unsleeved S&S set, and the cards seem to be holding up better than I expected through adventure 2. I don't look at them as closely, though, because they're not mine.


I write this as someone who was against sleeving from the get go.

We bought Rotr back in about August, since then we have played through it five times so it has gotten quite a bit of use. The cards are taking quite a beating between chipping, bending and peeling back. Going into S&S we again decided not to sleeve and about then we realizd just how worn RotR was. Now into adventure 4 we are again seeing a good deal of wear showing.

When we started the season we decided to sleeve. Granted it is now a pain having he game box unsleeved and the class deck sleeved, we carry quite a few extra sleeves to keep up. But having them sleeved is keeping the cards in tact. Long story short, when wrath comes out, we'll be sleeving. Just need Ultra Pro to get their insert released or Broken Token, here we come.

As for sleeves we have tried three version and we recommend the ultra pro ones. We have penny sleeves that are cheap but work well for tracking skill and power feats. The Fantasy Flight ones were next, quality was nice but they are a bit too long and got annoying when shuffling. Finally got the ultra pro ones and we stuck with them. It's a small difference in length, but enough to make a difference imo.

Contributor

I don't sleeve.

We've played through Rise of the Runelords one full time, along with using the cards for a lot of one-off games (including playtesting for my variant-RotRL AP Shield of Rannick). The cards are showing wear, particularly the set B and 1 cards that have seen more use than the set 5 and 6 cards.

Our Skull and Shackles set is only up to set 4 (set 5 just came yesterday!), but those cards have gotten even more play than our RotRL set, with the main campaign, the OP campaign, and playtesting for my next variant AP. Those cards are also showing wear; again, it's mostly the set B and 1 cards.

We've only had one "giveaway" damage: the Fox in my wife's deck has a peeled corner that indicates when it's coming. We just swapped out for a Fox from one of the class decks.

I imagine we play this game much more than most players. The fact that these cards can stand up to our rigorous play is a real testament to the durability of the game. If we were going to take a third run--for example, if we planned to restart RotRL one holiday weekend and power through the whole thing with a new group--I might deem our set just a little too worn out, and buy another base set. That would give "fresh" set B and 1 cards, which is all we need; the other cards have held up just fine. (It's money I'd rather throw at Paizo than at a card-sleeve company and take up a lot of my own time--but I know that's not a decision everyone can make.)

I'm not rabidly anti-sleeving, and I do have some experience with sleeving: one of the game stores I played OP at sleeves their cards, so I have to sleeve my Tarlin deck cards when I go play there. I don't much mind using sleeved cards, but it's not my preference.

As for the future, I don't intend to sleeve Wrath of the Righteous, either.

Hope this feedback is helpful.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I always sleeve, both my class deck for OP (or rather, the cards in it I use) as well as the entirety of the base game is sleeved. I use Dragon Shields for regular cards, as I like their quality and the fact that they easily fit cards inside of them, plus they shuffle well even after lots of wear (which was an issue with ultra pros -- after a lot of shuffling the edges became brittle and more apt to split in my experience). For double-sided cards including character cards and ships I use clear perfect fit/inner sleeves. This allows me to see both sides of the card and they are still easily shuffleable if needed unlike penny sleeves. I can write on the sleeve itself with sharpie to mark off feats, and a card sleeved with an inner sleeve still nicely fits into a dragon shield sleeve in case I want extra protection.

The one issue I have with sleeving everything is that the game box slots do not fit all of the cards, so I need to be a bit more creative with how I arrange everything.


skizzerz wrote:
The one issue I havce with sleeving everything is that the game box slots do not fit all of the cards, so I need to be a bit more creative with how I arrange everything.

I use the Broken Token insert for both RotR and S&S. I don't see how you could fit all the cards into the original insert if you sleeve.


Awesome, thanks for all the feedback!


If you are worried about wear and tear, I do suggest you sleeve if you can afford it. I suggest the Ultra-Pro sleeves if you do sleeve. Also, since the insert cannot fit sleeved cards, I highly suggest Broken Token's or go7 gaming's custom insert.

Another reason to sleeve is if you have RotR cards in different prints (some printed in USA, some China). Everyone in my group could notice whether the card is USA or China print, and that gives away that the next card is definitely not a henchman/Villain.

While I haven't bought the custom inserts or sleeved because I am waiting for the Adventure Case to make a decision, our only workaround is to put the location cards on top of the location deck and draw from the bottom. That way we don't see the back of the cards.

Bottom line: If you can afford getting a custom insert + enough sleeves for 1200 cards (or more for class decks), then do so.


I had to sleeve, the cards were getting beat up pretty easily, they definitely are not very durable.

I am using the PACG specific sleeves for the cards with backs and clear sleeves for the 2-sided cards.

Grand Lodge

hfm wrote:

I had to sleeve, the cards were getting beat up pretty easily, they definitely are not very durable.

I am using the PACG specific sleeves for the cards with backs and clear sleeves for the 2-sided cards.

I've sleeved both sets in similar fashion.

After playing through Adventure 2 and 3 a few times a week, I'm seeing a lot more wear-and-tear on the PACG sleeves than I expected. I'll be replacing a few of them soon. But the cards are still in excellent condition which is something that bothered us when playing with a friend's set for RotR. That's when I decided to sleeve.


My funds are limited right now so I'm using penny sleeves. I'd like to eventually get higher quality sleeves, but the penny sleeves are serving for now. Sleeving was necessary for our group because we play the game a lot.

Dark Archive

I ran through the whole Rotrl and the cards held up but had wear on them so I decided to sleeve the new set it is nice. 2 bad things about sleeving is the expense and then you get so many cards it becomes hard to actually shuffle. But After sleeving S&S I decided that I needed to sleeve everything.

Grand Lodge

If you go with something like the Ultra-Pro clear deck protectors, you can get the two-50 pack for around $5 if you shop around. The PACG are more expensive. And Dragon Shield sleeves are even more expensive. But if you don't mind the hologram on the UPs, the clears hold up pretty well.


We've played through RotR 3 or 4 times with different parties, and are part-way through with another 2.

Initially we sleeved with penny sleeves - clear plastic, but ended up replacing them with Matt ones, because of the different printing issues with Runelords (Base set and 3, 4, 6 were 1st edition, adventures 2 and 5 were second edition) - "Oh look, that next card must be the villain, it's a completely different colour to the others... are you going to explore again this turn?"

When I switched to matt sleeves, I threw away about 5% of the penny sleeves- they were too worn/sticky to use again. Much rather do that than throw cards. The remainder of the sleeves I just re-used for Skull & Shackles.

For Runelords I bought a custom wooden box insert (it's not broken token, some guy off Ebay who ships to the UK, but it's very similar) For S&S I've just made Trays out of foam-board - cost a couple of quid for materials, took half an hour or so of building time.

Even for the Matt sleeves on Runelords, the cost (maybe £40) is so much less than the cost of replacing a complete AP because cards are worn or damaged. It also provides great scope for using printed custom-cards (ArtsCow have even more problems matching the colours on the card backs than the 1st edition printers did).

Grand Lodge

I have to agree with you, MightJim. I'm glad we played enough RotR to realize the wear-n-tear on the cards and how they didn't stand up to two groups running every other week. Well, they stood up mostly but there was a bit of chipping on the backs. And you're right that with the two different printings, I went back and sleeved my RotR set so we wouldn't notice the difference in the backs.

I'm very happy sleeving my S&S since I run the organized play. And you have to be ready for a bit more wear-n-tear plus a bit of messiness. People snacking, etc. is something I expected.


A couple of sessions were sufficient to produce noticeable chipping on the Base and Expansion 1 RotR cards. When I discovered that the second expansion was noticeably darker than the base set, that tore it.

I'm using standard Blue Ultra Pros. It's a pretty snug fit on the cards, and shuffling is generally hassle-free, and it solves both problems. It makes for a tight fit in the box, particularly right when you add the Expansion 3 cards, but the fact that you're siphoning off Basic and, later, Elite cards throughout the succeeding expansions helps a bit.

Did they avoid all these issues with Skull and Shackles? Trying to figure out how many extra jobs I need to take on to pay for it.


The printing issue is non-existent in S&S. All the add-on, adventure, and class decks are printed in USA.


Thanks, Mr. Kabag. Just ordered the last three adventures from CSI, and looking forward to seeing if the Valeros/Lem combo holds up the rest of the way.


My RotRL cards are holding up very well. I have a few S&S with some strange white residue on the side (they came like that out of the box), which makes them a bit difficult to shuffle. Sleeving would fix that I guess, but it seems like a huge money, time, and space investment that probably isn't worth it, since I haven't had any problems so far.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For those that sleeve how do you deal with storage and the cards sliding all over the place? Those are the 2 things that drive me crazy about sleeving cards.

Edit: Over the last weekend I played with a sleeved deck at a convention and it was driving me crazy. The cards would not stay in piles were a pain to shuffle and would not stand still.


Fehzz wrote:
Thanks, Mr. Kabag. Just ordered the last three adventures from CSI, and looking forward to seeing if the Valeros/Lem combo holds up the rest of the way.

You're welcome. Valeros and Lem, you say? They will only get better! Have fun the rest of your adventures :)

You might have issues fitting your sleeved cards on the box insert once you get to Adventure 5 or 6. If and when you do you might want to look into custom inserts I mentioned earlier. Or get creative and make your own.


Dragnmoon wrote:

For those that sleeve how do you deal with storage and the cards sliding all over the place? Those are the 2 things that drive me crazy about sleeving cards.

Edit: Over the last weekend I played with a sleeved deck at a convention and it was driving me crazy. The cards would not stay in piles were a pain to shuffle and would not stand still.

Broken Token insert for storage. I am using black matte ultra pro deck protectors and my piles and shuffling aren't affected.

Sovereign Court

We only sleeve the cards that people are actively playing with. I handle all of the location cards, so I can make sure they don't get messed up. Everyone has some extra sleeves, so they can sleeve up any boons they acquire during play. this way you only have to sleeve a small fraction of the set. This saves TONS of money on sleeves, and don't have to deal with slippery cards in the location decks. This also means that storage is not a problem.


I decided to sleeve halfway through AP2 of Skulls and Shackles. After playing through the beginners path with several different parties, some of the beginner deck of cards were developing enough wear that they became discernible, especially from the the most recent adventure path. Ultra Pro sleeves were the best fit for me. I only sleeve boons and banes however. Villains and Henchman, also I sleeve individually as I use them and remove after use.

I would be tempted by the broken token inset but the shipping cost is a bit much overseas, so I just bought a couple of plastic car holder boxes that i sit next to or on top of the box.


I'm puzzled by the idea that sleeved cards are hard to shuffle. In my experience (I've played various LCGs and always sleeve my decks) it's MUCH easier to shuffle sleeved cards, as you can essentially mash two piles of cards together sideways, without damaging them.

Slidy-ness depends on cards- I've experienced it a little with the Ultra-Pro Matt sleeves, but a deck is never getting much above 20 cards, and a location rarely above 10, so it's not a problem. The only time it becomes an issue is when shuffling the whole Blessings or Monsters pile when building locations.

With clear penny sleeves (or the Ultra Pro Art sleeves) i find they stay in place fine.

Grand Lodge

Too much work to sleeve then unsleeve cards. It might save you money and space so that's up to you. I've abandoned the original box for several reasons. I used a two-row shoebox style card box. (I fit all of RotR plus Add-on plus Adv decks; all sleeved.) I use BCW vinyl dividers to separate card sections that I write on the top portion with a sharpie. All my cards are sleeved. I have never had any issues with cards sliding around in piles with any of the Ultra-Pro PACG or Clear Deck Protector sleeves. Being the only one to handle cards is not really an option when you facilitate Organized Play. Plus I'm carrying these cards from store to store to store. Lots of people handling them during games. The wear-n-tear would be noticeable.

So if you are playing once a week with a single group, then you probably don't need to sleeve. If you're playing with multiple groups a few times a week, yeah, you might wanna. You have to decide if this is an investment that you want to keep longterm in fairly pristine condition or just another game on the shelf. You have to figure out if having lots of people playing with the cards will ultimately start to make some cards more discernible than others so that sleeving them will keep the game more fair. (Like the two printings of RotR set.)

For me, I want to keep the cards in fairly good shape. And my circumstances pushed me towards sleeving. Also, not sure I recommend the PACG sleeves long term. They're showing more damage than the Clear UP sleeves did.


Aerenius wrote:

I decided to sleeve halfway through AP2 of Skulls and Shackles. After playing through the beginners path with several different parties, some of the beginner deck of cards were developing enough wear that they became discernible, especially from the the most recent adventure path. Ultra Pro sleeves were the best fit for me. I only sleeve boons and banes however. Villains and Henchman, also I sleeve individually as I use them and remove after use.

I would be tempted by the broken token inset but the shipping cost is a bit much overseas, so I just bought a couple of plastic car holder boxes that i sit next to or on top of the box.

Where exactly are you?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/PATHFINDER-ADVENTURE-STORAGE-TRADING-FANTASY/dp/B00 MX3CZUU

Also, the Broken Token insert is being redeisgned. The dice storage and character decks will be moved to the narrow lane, giving four full lanes with the adjustable dividers. I know I'm having a hard time now that deck 5 is out fitting everything in the current layout. The ships added a whole new wrinkle. Though I also used that narrow lane for other things. But I'm curious to see what it will look like.

I also hope Ultra Pro can get theirs out soon. I'd like to see it before deciding what I'm going to do for WotR.


I saw these but I saw reviews that say they don't work with sleeves??? Isn't that why you need a custom insert?

Sovereign Court

The one review on Amazon is the first I've heard of it not fitting sleeves. I've personally seen it fit a fully sleeved AP with room to spare. I don't know what that person was doing, but it wasn't using it as intended.


I have the Broken Token insert for my RotR set. So far it has fit all the cards sleeved up to AP3 with room to spare. I don't see having an issue up to AP6.


To be clear though, that one on Amazon.co.uk isn't technically the Broken Token insert. It is a very, very similar looking one. Here is a thread about it on BGG.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Could somebody please give some pro's and con's regarding the Ultra PRO standard and matte sleeves? I understand that the matte sleeves have reduced glare but is it significant enough to justify the price difference?

Also, are the PACG sleeves considered standard or matte sleeves?

Thanks in advance!


I used the standard sleeves (not matte). They work just fine. I've never had a problem where glare was noticeable or prevented any problem.

And I'm pretty sure the PACG branded sleeves are standard.


I fit all of RotR, sleeved, in the Broken Token insert with no trouble.


I use the "not the broken token" one above - it fits fine with Matt Sleeves. Matt Sleeves are good for hiding different print editions, using custom cards, but I find they can get a little slippy when trying to shuffle ALL the blessings, or ALL the monsters.

The clear penny sleeves are a bit easier to manipulate, but obviously, you can still see the card in full. They also seem to be a bit wider (or perhaps they just don't line up as neatly, being less slippy) - either way, the cards in clear sleeves feel a bit squashed - not to the point of damaging the cards, but I think they are angled slightly, which could be an issue at full capacity.

For reference, I've stored the whole of Runelords Sleeved, plus 4 or 5 unsleeved class decks in there without problem.

Grand Lodge

I don't use the matte sleeves for my set but I do for my class decks. It really depends on the light you're playing by. Some fluorescent lights cause a bad glare on non-matte sleeves. I had one player switch his sleeves because of this. Matte vs regular is pretty much a preference left up to you.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Anybody have a final card count for S&S with the promos? I understand the first set had 1033 single sided and 130 double sided.


My guess is S&S has a handful more cards than RotR, due to the two additional intro scenarios.

The only number I could find is Vic (here) saying each set has about 1200.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Depends how you count.

There are 400 B cards in the Base Set.
There are 110 cards in each of the 6 adventure decks, and 110 in the Character Add-On Deck.
There are 8 printed cards in the AD4 Make-Good Pack, though 1 of them just explains what the pack is.
There are 4 cards in the Ranzak promo pack, though 1 of them is a rules/explanation card.
There are 11 other promo cards, though if you had a subscription from October through February, you'll have 5 copies of Blessing of Zogmugot, not just 1.

So if you have everything, including 5 copies of Zogmugot, and you count the 2 explanation cards, you should have 1197 cards.

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