andreww |
deusvult wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and wave the flag on insisting take 20 is appropriate for combat situations, by RAW.
You won't get that to fly at very many tables, I'd wager.
Quote:Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.There is no limit to the free actions you can take in a turn by RAW. It's illogical to worry about auto successes.
You need less than 5 tricks to play an AC considering things like guard can be performed out of combat and be the default setting. Considering you can learn 1/adventure and there are only 13 tricks in core (12 + Air walking) you can literally learn them all by 4th level. Considering some of them are out of combat actions it reduces it even further. (heel, guard, exct)
You are ignoring the section saying that there may be limits to the number you can perform in a turn. Personally I dont allow more than 1 per turn but given its only DC10/12 to make your pet perform a trick it knows it rarely matters.
Undone |
Undone wrote:There is no limit to the free actions you can take in a turn by RAW.RAW wrote:Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Personally I dont allow more than 1 per turn but given its only DC10/12 to make your pet perform a trick it knows it rarely matters.
I assume you also allow only arrow to be drawn each turn.
andreww |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jiggy wrote:Undone wrote:There is no limit to the free actions you can take in a turn by RAW.RAW wrote:Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.Quote:Personally I dont allow more than 1 per turn but given its only DC10/12 to make your pet perform a trick it knows it rarely matters.I assume you also allow only arrow to be drawn each turn.
Nope, drawing an arrow is a very different thing than commanding your pet to savage someone to death.
Clearly I am just a monstrous viking hatted despot.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quote:...there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. .There is no limit to the free actions you can take in a turn by RAW.
I don't understand how you can quote a rule, and then turn around and interpret it exactly opposite.
At my table: if a free action requires a roll, a PC can only make that roll once a round. Make other free actions, sure.
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The topic of this thread is the Core Mode and how it changes the organized play environment. Undone, you and David don't like druids in D&D 3.5 / the Pathfinder RPG. You think animal companions are too powerful, either by the rules of the game, or else because GMs don't follow the rules of the game. In particular, you don't like a particular animal companion, bolstered by two particular spells, after 7th level.
We get that.
This seems to be an issue that you have with the Pathfinder ruleset in general. It has nothing particular to do with Pathfinder Society Organized Play, let alone the changes to the OP environment brought on by Core Mode. (If you think druids are well balanced in Normal Mode these days, but they were overpowered in Season 1, then I guess we know which mode you'll be looking to play. If you think druids are a problem in both modes, then that discussion is even further off-topic.)
--
So, are people inviting friends to "come back to Pathfinder Society" and focusing on Core Mode?
deusvult |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, are people inviting friends to "come back to Pathfinder Society" and focusing on Core Mode?
There are a few grognards in my area that I'm hoping the replay benny will attract back to active play.
But what I'm more looking forward to is my expectation that more people will be willing to take a stab at GMing b/c of the shorter learning curve involved.
Players who learn to GM in Core are only going to benefit Vanilla PFS.
Dhjika |
GMs, generally speaking, don't enforce the handle animal rules.
Maybe part of the problem with AC is not AC but in how GMs are running them (they are NPCs after all).
Just putting them on their own initiatives and GM controlling them but follow PC direction, mitigates them a bit.
Dhjika |
Dhjika wrote:That trick is part of the description for the Air Walk spell, so it is Core.Undone wrote:Dhjika wrote:David Bowles wrote:andreww wrote:Not in Core only it isn't.Yeah, but there are no Kitsunes, either. But there sure are still pounce kitties.Big Cats get pounce at 7th correct? and they get large at the same time and have to squeeze in 5ft corridors - which means if any movement is squeezing they can't charge and thus can't pounce (any movement restriction prevents charge -and no narrow frame in Core).
I have not found the pounce kitties as you express them to be that much of an issue in Normal - the highest armor ACs have all been non-pouncers but there were ways to add pounce-like outside of Core I suppose. the problem is with higher than level Oracle pets and they were all dinos before they fell off the Additional Resources or Rocs.
At 7 I prep reduce animal and air walk in all my games so my animal can always pounce. It costs a net 1 damage for 2 AC and lets you always charge. Both of these spells are core. This doesn't fix the issue it exacerbates it.
So it is the druids at 7th level and higher which is the issue - because before 7th level they don't have pounce and large.
Actually - I haven't seen to many druids who can tap the DC25 Handle Animal check to get them to Air Walk, either (I believe that trick is not Core either).
What is core is that you can put air walk on a specially trained MOUNT so it can be RIDDEN. You can train a MOUNT with the trick.
Unless the druid is riding the pounce kitty into battle on air walk - the trick in CORE does not apply.
but this may be more of the GMs don't bother with making animal handlers follow the rules.
And I agree some don't, like people who GM'ed the 5 charisma never put any points in it ranger I once GMed who claimed for 4 levels, he had never had to make the roll before. (which if he meant, I realize now, 1-4, that might be true - sorry unknown GMs)
David Bowles |
Undone wrote:
Quote:...there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. .There is no limit to the free actions you can take in a turn by RAW.I don't understand how you can quote a rule, and then turn around and interpret it exactly opposite.
At my table: if a free action requires a roll, a PC can only make that roll once a round. Make other free actions, sure.
---
The topic of this thread is the Core Mode and how it changes the organized play environment. Undone, you and David don't like druids in D&D 3.5 / the Pathfinder RPG. You think animal companions are too powerful, either by the rules of the game, or else because GMs don't follow the rules of the game. In particular, you don't like a particular animal companion, bolstered by two particular spells, after 7th level.
We get that.
This seems to be an issue that you have with the Pathfinder ruleset in general. It has nothing particular to do with Pathfinder Society Organized Play, let alone the changes to the OP environment brought on by Core Mode. (If you think druids are well balanced in Normal Mode these days, but they were overpowered in Season 1, then I guess we know which mode you'll be looking to play. If you think druids are a problem in both modes, then that discussion is even further off-topic.)
--
So, are people inviting friends to "come back to Pathfinder Society" and focusing on Core Mode?
Vanilla PFS is *better* because other classes gained a lot more than druids did, but they were already so far ahead of most other classes that it was necessary. CORE sends us back to druids just being heads and shoulders above most everyone in an environment where the GM can't compensate for the multi-attacking pet that is also a reservoir of extra hps and extra actions. And it's not just the animal companion. They can summon as many creatures as they like while their companions is active. I've seen a druid put out so many creatures the NPCs couldn't even move in the room. They are a better master summoner than the master summoner.
In addition to prohibiting every build I'm interested in right now, druids will be mathematically more prevalent in CORE. That just kills it for me. I guess you can't win them all, because I loved the ACG. I'm still flabbergasted they actually rolled this out a few months after they expanded the number of classes in the game.
Undone |
What is core is that you can put air walk on a specially trained MOUNT so it can be RIDDEN. You can train a MOUNT with the trick.
Unless the druid is riding the pounce kitty into battle on air walk - the trick in CORE does not apply.
but this may be more of the GMs don't bother with making animal handlers follow the rules.
And I agree some don't, like people who GM'ed the 5 charisma never put any points in it ranger I once GMed who claimed for 4 levels, he had never had to make the roll before. (which if he meant, I realize now, 1-4, that might be true - sorry unknown GMs)
I tend to adventure with a paladin who loves mounts and while he has his own horse he'd much rather ride the lion if given the option.
I've also seen a number of totem companions who can simply speak with the druid at 6th. Besides as noted you should have every single trick by level 4 since you get a total of 3(Level 1)+ 6(Level 2)+ 9(Level 3) or 18 chances to learn tricks if you're maxing handle animal and there aren't exactly a ton of tricks you need to learn. Granted that goes away in Core it doesn't really SOLVE the issue.
Just putting them on their own initiatives and GM controlling them but follow PC direction, mitigates them a bit.
Considering that every single time a single modifier was off it would eat more time and every single time the GM had to do something it would, again eat more time. All this does is eat time. If you're able to make trick rolls on a negative number then you can effectively direct it to do what you want.
For those saying it's a problem only at level 7+? Level one gives them 3 attacks which is already enough to 1 shot most creatures.
This seems to be an issue that you have with the Pathfinder ruleset in general.
It is. I honestly feel no pets should be legal in PFS. They're just as bad as leadership and don't function appropriately for Encounter balance. You could have 4 PC's and 4 animal companions which even still gets the 4 player adjustment on an adventure but is likely more powerful than a 6 man table.
That said the reason it's being mentioned here is because druids got the least out of new splat books and big books while other classes were brought up closer to the level of the druid/wizard/cleric which means the druid dominating the adventure will be extremely pronounced and nearly unavoidable.
DesolateHarmony |
Undone, you seem to think that tricks come in unlimited quantities?
The limit is the companion's INT x 3 plus bonus tricks from the Animal Companion chart. That's usually 7 tricks at the start. And a replacement companion only starts with the bonus tricks, so it takes a short while to catch up. Maybe a few scenarios.
LazarX |
[Vanilla PFS is *better* because other classes gained a lot more than druids did, but they were already so far ahead of most other classes that it was necessary. CORE sends us back to druids just being heads and shoulders above most everyone in an environment where the GM can't compensate for the multi-attacking pet that is also a reservoir of extra hps and extra actions. And it's not just the animal companion. They can summon as many creatures as they like while their companions is active. I've seen a druid put out so many creatures the NPCs couldn't even move in the room. They are a better master summoner than the master summo.
Druids are subject to the same limitations on summoning as everyone else, i.e. only one summon spell can be active per player at a time.
Undone |
Druids are subject to the same limitations on summoning as everyone else, i.e. only one summon spell can be active per player at a time.
There is no limit on active summon spells. Perhaps that's why you're not having a problem with summons.
Undone, you seem to think that tricks come in unlimited quantities?
These are all the tricks in core except air walk in core. Bolded are the only ones you need because they need to be done in combat, out of combat pushing it isn't difficult.
Come (DC 15): The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so.
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.
Fetch (DC 15): The animal goes and gets something. If you do not point out a specific item, the animal fetches a random object.
Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
Heel (DC 15): The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn't go.
Perform (DC 15): The animal performs a variety of simple tricks, such as sitting up, rolling over, roaring or barking, and so on.
Seek (DC 15): The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate.
Stay (DC 15): The animal stays in place, waiting for you to return. It does not challenge other creatures that come by, though it still defends itself if it needs to.
Track (DC 20): The animal tracks the scent presented to it. (This requires the animal to have the scent ability.)
Work (DC 15): The animal pulls or pushes a medium or heavy load.
All of the non-bolded tricks you can simply push until you make it. There are 5 tricks you actually need to know.
redward |
LazarX wrote:Druids are subject to the same limitations on summoning as everyone else, i.e. only one summon spell can be active per player at a time.There is no limit on active summon spells. Perhaps that's why you're not having a problem with summons.
Quote:Undone, you seem to think that tricks come in unlimited quantities?These are all the tricks in core except air walk in core. Bolded are the only ones you need because they need to be done in combat, out of combat pushing it isn't difficult.
** spoiler omitted **...
I count 6 unless your pet sits out combats involving undead.
I also see a lot of pet owners use their pet's scent ability to find invisible creatures. So that's 7 since you need Track to find by scent.
As others have said, a lot of options become more powerful when people get lax with the rules.
Undone |
The limit is the companion's INT x 3 plus bonus tricks from the Animal Companion chart. That's usually 7 tricks at the start. And a replacement companion only starts with the bonus tricks, so it takes a short while to catch up. Maybe a few scenarios.
I also see a lot of pet owners use their pet's scent ability to find invisible creatures. So that's 7 since you need Track to find by scent.
While it's true people are lax on it you pretty much just said so that it doesn't matter much since DC 10/12 is laughable.
Nefreet |
Druids are subject to the same limitations on summoning as everyone else, i.e. only one summon spell can be active per player at a time.
Although this is not a rule, I wouldn't mind it becoming one (for both campaigns).
I once ran a module where the PCs had an arena fight, and both sides were given one minute after the buzzer to "buff up" before engaging each other.
While the NPC drinks her potions and casts her spells, one of the players decided to summon multiple Lantern Archons every round. There were some couple dozen of the buggers ready to go by the time the fight started.
And I had a PC do the exact same tactic in Bonekeep.
Each time it ground combat down to a halt.
But I suppose that's a topic for another thread.
Flutter |
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I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.
The druids with double digit charisma support group will be held monthly at the absolom tea cozy. Ive reserved a table for two in the back.
andreww |
I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.
Why? At level 1 even with charisma 7 you can hit dc10 on a 2. 1 rank -2 charisma +3 class skill +4 to handle your own pet +2 training harness.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:That is indeed annoying, but tricked out animal companions are essentially the same thing, but don't even have the decency to be PCs. They are a) unhittable and b) have natural attacks with a large attack bonus. Granted, a raging barb probably has a better will save, but that's what suppress charms and compulsions is for, isn't it?Lorathorn wrote:What's the story on kitsune barbarians?** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, but you have to see, that pet owners really do not have that many options, increasing AC is really the only viable one (and many pet classes get to cast barkskin). My current normal campaign cat just to amateur swashbuckler... I do not intend to lose another one to a ghost.
Tariq al'Abdsaren |
DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.The druids with double digit charisma support group will be held monthly at the absolom tea cozy. Ive reserved a table for two in the back.
I don't need a support group a support group, I have money.
<twenty minutes later>
He was so unlikable even his own Animal Companion would not listen to him. I had to give his AC commands, and he looked down on me for being too civilized.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
There is a sanctioned adventure that gives players access to the keen longbow and mnemoric vestments, I think that one will be very very popular in core campaigns, since the vestments are pretty much the only way to increase spell access (aside from staffs) since pages of spell knowledge and alternative favored class options are not available.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
David Bowles wrote:andreww wrote:Not in Core only it isn't.Yeah, but there are no Kitsunes, either. But there sure are still pounce kitties.Big Cats get pounce at 7th correct? and they get large at the same time and have to squeeze in 5ft corridors - which means if any movement is squeezing they can't charge and thus can't pounce (any movement restriction prevents charge -and no narrow frame in Core).
I have not found the pounce kitties as you express them to be that much of an issue in Normal - the highest armor ACs have all been non-pouncers but there were ways to add pounce-like outside of Core I suppose. the problem is with higher than level Oracle pets and they were all dinos before they fell off the Additional Resources or Rocs.
Reduce person/animal helps and both are available in core, just like mithral barding and additional traits. I don't think the problem is quite as bad as David has come to think, but the tactic is still perfectly viable (the loss of dragon style not withstanding).
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
ElterAgo |
... druids will be mathematically more prevalent in CORE ...
I don't expect this to be all that pervasive. Most players I have met (in several different venues) just don't like to play druids. I can only imagine a small number of them playing something they don't like just because it is more powerful.
DesolateHarmony |
DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.Why? At level 1 even with charisma 7 you can hit dc10 on a 2. 1 rank -2 charisma +3 class skill +4 to handle your own pet +2 training harness.
Two things:
One, that misses on a 1 on the die. Bad for many things.Two, It's a home game, and the GM requested Core book and APG only. The training harness is in the Animal Archive, I believe.
andreww |
andreww wrote:training harness is core?DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.Why? At level 1 even with charisma 7 you can hit dc10 on a 2. 1 rank -2 charisma +3 class skill +4 to handle your own pet +2 training harness.
Masterwork Tool then. Even without it you only need a 4 to pass at level 1.
Sithis of Fangwood |
DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.The druids with double digit charisma support group will be held monthly at the absolom tea cozy. Ive reserved a table for two in the back.
I would also wishhh to accompany you.
Sssave me a ssseat near the warmthhh of the fire.
Funny story. His Charisma's only 10, but there was a scenario I played in where my +0 Diplomacy was the best at the table.
Dhjika |
Dhjika wrote:Masterwork Tool then. Even without it you only need a 4 to pass at level 1.andreww wrote:training harness is core?DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.Why? At level 1 even with charisma 7 you can hit dc10 on a 2. 1 rank -2 charisma +3 class skill +4 to handle your own pet +2 training harness.
Once your animal gets injured you actually need a 12 - but yes the chance is not too bad - but still bad enough you have to roll.
And expect GM variation on the masterwork tool, as to whether they will allow it.
deusvult |
andreww wrote:Dhjika wrote:Masterwork Tool then. Even without it you only need a 4 to pass at level 1.andreww wrote:training harness is core?DesolateHarmony wrote:I know my druid (in a home game) invested in charisma to avoid missing handle animal on low rolls. She'd be much more powerful with charisma as a dump stat.Why? At level 1 even with charisma 7 you can hit dc10 on a 2. 1 rank -2 charisma +3 class skill +4 to handle your own pet +2 training harness.Once your animal gets injured you actually need a 12 - but yes the chance is not too bad - but still bad enough you have to roll.
And expect GM variation on the masterwork tool, as to whether they will allow it.
And even when they will allow it, expect to spend a move action (or more, depending on where you store it) to equip it prior to use.
TwilightKnight |
Why?
If you only focus on trained skill, this is not a bad approach. Why invest valuable ability points where they're not needed. However, remember that in core, all the expanded tricks from the Animal Archive are out (or at least they're supposed to be). That means things like flanking which is a fairly common trick for AC users, reverts back to an untrained trick at best and a DC of 25. Many GM's are going to say the same thing about other tricks like Delay and Maneuver. That makes Charisma a bit more important.
Not to mention Diplomacy is arguably the most important PFS skill other than maybe Perception. Sure, that means the chances of someone in the party being at least moderately competent at it are high, but for something so important to most scenarios, I personally would not leave it up to someone else to do it for me. YMMV
TwilightKnight |
Interesting. I've never seen anyone charged a move action to use a tool.
Depending on the tool, its perfectly reasonable to expect to have to use a move action to draw it. In the extreme depending on the nature of the tool, I've seen a GM charge a standard action to use it, incidental to the skill itself.
Drogon Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds |
Well, this thread looks different than it used to...
Sniggevert |
David Bowles wrote:Interesting. I've never seen anyone charged a move action to use a tool.Depending on the tool, its perfectly reasonable to expect to have to use a move action to draw it. In the extreme depending on the nature of the tool, I've seen a GM charge a standard action to use it, incidental to the skill itself.
This...and most of the times I hear folks using tools for skills its for non-combat skill checks where the time is immaterial. If you're using it mid-combat, it would very much depend on what that tool is on what action it would take to use IMO.
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Undone |
Assuming you put ranks in handle animal and have a 7 charisma you auto succeed at (-2 Cha, 4 Ranks, 3 Trained, 4 Animal companion) before that you have a 15%/10%/5% chance to fail and only don't get multiple checks if the GM rules you get 1 free action a turn.
With a 10 it happens at level 2. Considering diplomacy is extremely powerful in PFS I see no reason to dump cha and especially in core only will likely take the ease of faith trait so I can get good diplomacy.
deusvult |
Interesting. I've never seen anyone charged a move action to use a tool.
Action economy when switching equipment is another thing GMs commonly don't enforce.
Round 1: I shoot it with my bow!
Round 2: I thwack it with my sword!
Round 3: I cast a spell and use my (insert ability here) rod!
Round 4: I shoot it with my bow again!
ad nauseum. This isn't a rare case, I see players expecting that to work all the time. (I blame video games, but that's another discussion entirely)
Stuff you need for whatever you want to do doesn't begin the turn already in hand unless it was already there to begin with.. and thus we're looking at extra move actions (at least) to change weapons/tools in combat, not to mention additional move actions on top of that to stow stuff if you don't want a pile of equipment accumulating at your feet.
LazarX |
David Bowles wrote:Interesting. I've never seen anyone charged a move action to use a tool.Action economy when switching equipment is another thing GMs commonly don't enforce.
I and all of the judges I know personally, and that's a fair number, do.
GreySector RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 |
Vanilla PFS is *better* because other classes gained a lot more than druids did, but they were already so far ahead of most other classes that it was necessary. CORE sends us back to druids just being heads and shoulders above most everyone in an environment where the GM can't compensate for the multi-attacking pet that is also a reservoir of extra hps and extra actions. And it's not just the animal companion. They can summon as many creatures as they like while their companions is active. I've seen a druid put out so many creatures...
Since not every PC, ever, has been a druid this is clearly not the case.
Undone |
Action economy when switching equipment is another thing GMs commonly don't enforce.
Everyone here does. We've got at least 12 other GM's in the area that I know personally and myself along with several GM's I don't know well.
Stuff you need for whatever you want to do doesn't begin the turn already in hand unless it was already there to begin with..
Player: "I move and attack"
GM: "You have BAB 0 it's a move to draw it and move to attack"Player: "I've been walking with it out."
GM: "You didn't say that"
Player: "I Didn't think I had to I always have on every character unless our weapons are peacebound (Looking at you weddings)"
The weapon is always there to begin with and wands are weapon like objects on the belt.
Luxury. I've played in a scenario where my -2 tied with another character for highest :-)
Society skills have a definitive hierarchy in terms of need Perception>Diplomacy>Knowledge X after that there's a huge drop off in frequency. Heck FINDER is in your name.
JohnF Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West |