BlackOuroboros wrote: the CLW is actually substantially better because it is actually useful in combat at low levels Also relevant. At level 1-4 it can turn the tide in a fight, at level ~5+ it is a painfully useless waste of an action to heal in combat.
N. Jolly wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: James Risner wrote: It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day. I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.
Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group. Yeah, this kind of reckless thinking always bothers me. It's annoying because it reinforces the idea that a player should be punished, and most of the time it's nearly suicidal. This goes into the 'classes that can go all day aren't good' since almost everyone works on limited resources, but that's not the topic. I can't imagine EVERY adventure is done on the harshest time table.
The problem with the 15 minute adventuring day is it doesn't just render the healer obsolete, it rendered every class that isn't a wizard or a wall obsolete.
Here's an example:
Several years back, I played in a World's Largest Dungeon game with some college friends. The GM was new, so he let our party get away with the 15-minute adventuring day so we would literally do one encounter a day. The game turned into "Blaster Wizard and the Bag of Hit-points Band". Our job was literally relegated to preventing the Wizard from getting sacked and it was... just... so... boring... I was running a rogue because I figured Dungeon = Lot of Skill Challenges. Turns out I was right except for the fact that we were quick nap away from spells that rendered skills obsolete. When I recommended pressing on so that, you know, the other classes got a chance to shine I was shut down because the 15-minute adventuring day is a strategy that works FANTASTICALLY and we were proceeding through the dungeon like we were on cheat codes (because, you know, we basically were). I finally ended up dropping out because "hey, its not like they needed me for anything".
BlackOuroboros wrote: The problem with the 15 minute adventuring day is it doesn't just render the healer obsolete, it rendered every class that isn't a wizard or a wall obsolete.
Here's an example:
Several years back, I played in a World's Largest Dungeon game with some college friends. The GM was new, so he let our party get away with the 15-minute adventuring day so we would literally do one encounter a day. The game turned into "Blaster Wizard and the Bag of Hit-points Band". Our job was literally relegated to preventing the Wizard from getting sacked and it was... just... so... boring... I was running a rogue because I figured Dungeon = Lot of Skill Challenges. Turns out I was right except for the fact that we were quick nap away from spells that rendered skills obsolete. When I recommended pressing on so that, you know, the other classes got a chance to shine I was shut down because the 15-minute adventuring day is a strategy that works FANTASTICALLY and we were proceeding through the dungeon like we were on cheat codes (because, you know, we...
To be fair in this example you were a rogue, I feel no sympathy. And you didn't say what anyone else was, I'm going to guess all mundanes by the way you're describing things. This story needs more details to really make sense here, since I'm not sure what healing has to do with any of this. It just more sounds like you guys fought and rested, all you're really saying here is 'magic is unfair' which was a known fact.
To me its all about balance...its a very complicated game with a HUGE amount of effort given to balance when the rules were made. Alter pretty much any important rule or guide line and it affects all sorts of other things...some unforeseen. The people warning about this item being too cheap and powerful are doing so because they have probably played in a group were similar things were done and It had bad results. Overpowered parties and unbalanced party member power are two of the most common ways to wreck a campaign and piss GMs/players off. This specific example could make the healer of a party feel useless. It could inflate the party's finances. It could make limited spell users frustrated since the fighters wouldn't need to rest up.
The point is if rules are ignored the players will take advantage of them...some players will benefit more than others. The GM will have an ever increasingly hard time setting up challenging encounters without TPKs or leaving some players feeling useless.
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N. Jolly wrote: BlackOuroboros wrote: The problem with the 15 minute adventuring day is it doesn't just render the healer obsolete, it rendered every class that isn't a wizard or a wall obsolete.
Here's an example:
Several years back, I played in a World's Largest Dungeon game with some college friends. The GM was new, so he let our party get away with the 15-minute adventuring day so we would literally do one encounter a day. The game turned into "Blaster Wizard and the Bag of Hit-points Band". Our job was literally relegated to preventing the Wizard from getting sacked and it was... just... so... boring... I was running a rogue because I figured Dungeon = Lot of Skill Challenges. Turns out I was right except for the fact that we were quick nap away from spells that rendered skills obsolete. When I recommended pressing on so that, you know, the other classes got a chance to shine I was shut down because the 15-minute adventuring day is a strategy that works FANTASTICALLY and we were proceeding through the dungeon like we were on cheat codes (because, you know, we...
To be fair in this example you were a rogue, I feel no sympathy. And you didn't say what anyone else was, I'm going to guess all mundanes by the way you're describing things. This story needs more details to really make sense here, since I'm not sure what healing has to do with any of this. It just more sounds like you guys fought and rested, all you're really saying here is 'magic is unfair' which was a known fact. The fact that your response was essentially "LOL, you nubs picked non-casters, lrn2play" tells me you have nothing meaningful to add to this or any other conversation.
boring7 wrote: BlackOuroboros wrote: the CLW is actually substantially better because it is actually useful in combat at low levels Also relevant. At level 1-4 it can turn the tide in a fight, at level ~5+ it is a painfully useless waste of an action to heal in combat. Level 1-4 you're not going to have an unlimited healing item anyways, and certainly not a ring of regeneration. Even a wand of CLW often shows up later.
BlackOuroboros wrote: N. Jolly wrote: BlackOuroboros wrote: The problem with the 15 minute adventuring day is it doesn't just render the healer obsolete, it rendered every class that isn't a wizard or a wall obsolete.
Here's an example:
Several years back, I played in a World's Largest Dungeon game with some college friends. The GM was new, so he let our party get away with the 15-minute adventuring day so we would literally do one encounter a day. The game turned into "Blaster Wizard and the Bag of Hit-points Band". Our job was literally relegated to preventing the Wizard from getting sacked and it was... just... so... boring... I was running a rogue because I figured Dungeon = Lot of Skill Challenges. Turns out I was right except for the fact that we were quick nap away from spells that rendered skills obsolete. When I recommended pressing on so that, you know, the other classes got a chance to shine I was shut down because the 15-minute adventuring day is a strategy that works FANTASTICALLY and we were proceeding through the dungeon like we were on cheat codes (because, you know, we...
To be fair in this example you were a rogue, I feel no sympathy. And you didn't say what anyone else was, I'm going to guess all mundanes by the way you're describing things. This story needs more details to really make sense here, since I'm not sure what healing has to do with any of this. It just more sounds like you guys fought and rested, all you're really saying here is 'magic is unfair' which was a known fact. I think its a fine example of the type of effect this TYPE of rule bending can have. His specific example was the PCs being able to get their spells back too easily(that's not hard to figure out). At will healing could have the opposite effect...some players never wanting to rest.
BlackOuroboros wrote: The fact that your response was essentially "LOL, you nubs picked non-casters, lrn2play" tells me you have nothing meaningful to add to this or any other conversation. You shared a story that didn't have a lot of information, I asked for more, and the magic/martial imbalance is widely known. I'm not sure what your story was even supposed to mean aside from 'magic is overpowered.'
You still haven't really explained how at will healing makes everything but wizards irrelevant. All you've said is that wizards are powerful when they don't have to ration their spells. That's something we all know already.
What I said is that in a group where the wizard is the only caster, it's easy for non casters to feel overshadowed, which is true, especially in the circumstance where a caster can use all of their best abilities without needing to ration them.
So yeah, still not seeing why at will healing makes other classes irrelevant. Personally, it makes the 'all day' classes much better, since they're always at peak form instead of the resource classes that gradually use those resources during the day. A fighter who can always run in with full HP is far better than a fighter who can't in reference to how well they can contribute to combat.
Meager Rolmug wrote: I think its a fine example of the type of effect this TYPE of rule bending can have. His specific example was the PCs being able to get their spells back too easily(that's not hard to figure out). At will healing could have the opposite effect...some players never wanting to rest. Personally I don't see this except for the all day classes (rogue/fighter), although if we're working with a group who's willing to respect other's capacities it shouldn't be too hard for everyone to reach a consensus on when to rest. Besides, anything that boost the all day classes is golden in my book.
Meager Rolmug wrote: To me its all about balance...its a very complicated game with a HUGE amount of effort given to balance when the rules were made. Uh, not really. In fact, there are quotes from 3.5 devs that there were things made to be worse than other options, just to give people with system mastery something to feel good about, and those legacy issues were brought forth into Pathfinder. Meager Rolmug wrote: Alter pretty much any important rule or guide line and it affects all sorts of other things...some unforeseen. The people warning about this item being too cheap and powerful are doing so because they have probably played in a group were similar things were done and It had bad results. At least one of them has admitted that they've never played in a game where it was an option, but regularly just spam CLW from wands, which after a point might as well be unlimited. Meager Rolmug wrote: Overpowered parties and unbalanced party member power are two of the most common ways to wreck a campaign and piss GMs/players off. This specific example could make the healer of a party feel useless. If an item that heals 1d8+1 at will makes a healer feel useless, I'd posit that that's not a very good healer. I'd also note that the inclusion of such items are so that no one feels like they have to play a healer to begin with. Meager Rolmug wrote: It could inflate the party's finances. Oh no, the party might save a couple thousand GP on healing wands over the course of a campaign. Except, wait, the system assumes that money spent on consumables is eventually recouped, either in the form of cash or more consumables. So...yeah. If it's really a problem, the GM can also, y'know, adjust how much treasure they're giving out. Meager Rolmug wrote: It could make limited spell users frustrated since the fighters wouldn't need to rest up. In my experience, even at full hitpoints the fighters are often very willing to rest when the casters are completely out of spells. There are just so many challenges you can face that practically require a magical solution. On the other hand, it's also been my experience that casters are far more willing to let the martial classes handle fights without throwing out their big spells, because they can just be healed afterwards.
_Ozy_ wrote: boring7 wrote: BlackOuroboros wrote: the CLW is actually substantially better because it is actually useful in combat at low levels Also relevant. At level 1-4 it can turn the tide in a fight, at level ~5+ it is a painfully useless waste of an action to heal in combat. Level 1-4 you're not going to have an unlimited healing item anyways, and certainly not a ring of regeneration. Even a wand of CLW often shows up later. Usually. Outside of PFS and with a party that pools its resources you can sometimes make that stretch. Also the level where CLW stops affecting combats directly (that is to say, healing in combat) is hazy.
I know, I'm being pedantic. Moving on, it's also kind of nice to create a situation where a cleric or oracle doesn't have to use all of his or her magic on healing. Big fight ends, 120 HP barbarian is down to 10 HP, that can end up being all the spells I have left. This can happen even though I've been extremely miserly with my casting and only dropping buff spells or shooting my crossbow.
Mind you, that same miserly mentality leads me to not burn charges on the wand when I probably should, because spells per day replenish while charges in a wand don't. Though that does make me think of another point:
A STAFF of Cure Light Wounds is rechargeable, and costs 8k. Not the same, of course, since recharging from almost-empty takes days while the theoretical wondrous item is infinite, but it is a way to pack in healing magic, not to mention kinda-sorta make a non-cleric be a spontaneous healer. For more money, you can keep up with "heal in combat" shenanigans as well, and/or have the means of fixing bigger things, like level drain.
I forget, can Staff Magus use spell staves that aren't on his class list?
DominusMegadeus wrote: Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Yes and if we TPK it is my friend's fault for burning all his resources in the 1st or 2nd encounter and having nothing for the 3rd or 4th encounter.
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DominusMegadeus wrote: James Risner wrote: It isn't my fault if I'm playing and some other player goes nova and wants to stop. He gets to be less effective while the rest of us continue the day. I see this kind of thing a lot in topics discussing the '15-minute work day'.
Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Why would you do that, IC? And if you can complete the challenges of the day ahead of you with a spell-less wizard, I seriously doubt it was even close to a real challenge for your group. Because it is the first reason for all the "spellcaster are overpowered" threads.
Their power is limited if the can't go nova and the regain all the power without any in game hindrance.
James Risner wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: Do you actually press on and threaten TPKing because your friend is out of spells? Yes and if we TPK it is my friend's fault for burning all his resources in the 1st or 2nd encounter and having nothing for the 3rd or 4th encounter. But isn't that a completely metagame way of thinking?
Think like you were your character.
I am Thumber the giant barbarian, and I have this friend called Raistlin... That little guy keeps throwing helpful spells my way that makes me stronger and better at killing dangerous enemies. At a certain point Raistlin says that he is out of magic for the day, but not to worry because he will be all ready for tomorrow.
Why would Thumber not stop and rest? Thumber might be slightly stupid, but he does know that without Raistlins magics those dangerous fights Thumber keeps running into would be even more dangerous. The only reason Thumber could ever possibly have for pressing on was if there was an actual in game reason to press on, such as if we don't get to Mount Doom soon, Sauron is going to crush the world.
Now, if you do have a plot with time constraints I would say that an unlimited healing magic item is highly inappropriate, unless already factored into the plot and its timeline.
I also don't see what is so wrong with noone wanting to play the healer.
From an action perspective, would you really want to be the doctor who only help the others shine?
That is why I usually get tired of playing the wizard in the long run, because the most effective thing to do is usually buffing the party, and I've had plenty of combat rounds where I might aswell have my character sit down and eat popcorn while watching the carnage, because to be effective he is not supposed to waste magic and that gets boring quickly... So I often end up focusing most on the suboptimal wizard road of blasting and buffing a little bit... But as the healer, you really can't afford to waste spells on anything but buffs that prevent damage from happening and emergency healing.
Lifat wrote:
Think like you were your character.
I am Thumber the giant barbarian, and I have this friend called Raistlin... That little guy keeps throwing helpful spells my way that makes me stronger and better at killing dangerous enemies. At a certain point Raistlin says that he is out of magic for the day, but not to worry because he will be all ready for tomorrow.
Why would Thumber not stop and rest? Thumber might be slightly stupid, but he does know that without Raistlins magics those dangerous fights Thumber keeps running into would be even more dangerous. The only reason Thumber could ever possibly have for pressing on was if there was an actual in game reason to press on, such as if we don't get to Mount Doom soon, Sauron is going to crush the world.
Well, one reason that Thumber would not want to stop and rest is because he's in a very dangerous situation right now, and he wants to get to someplace that's actually relatively safe. If Thumber and his friends are soldiers on patrol, they're not going to stop in the middle of no-man's-land and pitch a tent half an hour into their mission. (As Aragorn put it, "by nightfall these hills will be swarming with orcs.")
Even if there's nothing -- no specific mission -- they're supposed to be doing, there's still the issue of "right now we're in a lousy spot to stop." There's no water, no good camping site, no good spot for a fire to cook food,.... and there's a very good chance we didn't bring enough water to make this planned five-mile hike into a two-week trip.
Stopping and camping in the middle of an unexplored dungeon is stupid and Thumber knows that. And going back to base camp so that we can fight our way through the same 100 yards tomorrow is equally stupid, and Thumber knows that, too.
I didn't want to imply that this one magical item being allowed at a low price would break the game. But that combined with a bunch of changes(which almost always result in making a PC more powerful) have a cumulitive effect, that can break the game...or at least cause major problems for the GM...and group trying to rebalance things. Any fun created or time saved can end up causing a lot of headaches and time wasted later. The game is delicately balanced(although far from perfect) and changes usually unbalance things more than the other way around. I contend that a lot of the things people complain about are more due to NOT following the rules than any other reason.
Except as I pointed out, the game isn't actually as delicately balanced as you think it is. The game is actually deliberately imbalanced at a certain level.
And while anecdotal evidence isn't really valid, when one side of an argument is arguing based on "I think" and "I feel" and the other has people who have experienced what's being argued about, well...let's just say you'll have to forgive me if I find your position lacking.
If you're concerned about the "15 minute adventuring day", it's worth noting that easy access to healing (wands or custom items) actually help avoid that since the party doesn't have to spend spell slots or channel charges on downtime healing.
The groups I play with tended to go through 1-3 fights and then stop to rest since they spent all their spell slots on healing spells. After getting in the habit of using healing wands, they're now happily pushing through full dungeon levels without resting.
Jeff Merola wrote: Except as I pointed out, the game isn't actually as delicately balanced as you think it is. The game is actually deliberately imbalanced at a certain level.
And while anecdotal evidence isn't really valid, when one side of an argument is arguing based on "I think" and "I feel" and the other has people who have experienced what's being argued about, well...let's just say you'll have to forgive me if I find your position lacking.
I HAVE experience with this very thing recking 3 different campaigns. And no its not perfectly balanced...nothing this complicated can be. And i've seen some changes being made that actually made things better. But the vast majority made the game worse IMHO.
You've played in games where easy access to an unlimited source of out of combat healing where that specific thing wrecked the campaign? I'm confused, because earlier you stated that this thing wouldn't break a campaign.
The healing belt mentioned earlier costed 750gp (Same as a CLW Wand). It had 3 charges. Using 1 charge heals 2d8; using 2 charges heals 3d8; and 3 charges heals 4d8. It also give a +2 [competence? I forget] bonus to heal checks. It requires a standard action to activate.
So 6d8 of healing a day (or 4d8 in an emergency that requires a burst). It's not bad, and can really take the edge off without becoming the unlimited healing that causes people to just jump off forty foot cliffs.
Also keep in mind that there is now a class that can potentially give themselves fast heal 1 all day long. (Sure the V. Hunter has to have a dead animal companion to do it, but still. The vermin companion can still have fast heal active all day too).
Jeff Merola wrote: You've played in games where easy access to an unlimited source of out of combat healing where that specific thing wrecked the campaign? I'm confused, because earlier you stated that this thing wouldn't break a campaign. What are talking about? I said that changes to the rules tend to strongly favor a PC's effectiveness and can have a cumulative effect...that is what has happened to me. The OP's item as discribed would be an weak example of one rule alteration that WITH OTHERS could also have that effect. Do you seriously think after that PC gets his custome designed cheap item that other players won't want some special gifts of their own?
Meager Rolmug wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: You've played in games where easy access to an unlimited source of out of combat healing where that specific thing wrecked the campaign? I'm confused, because earlier you stated that this thing wouldn't break a campaign. What are talking about? I said that changes to the rules tend to strongly favor a PC's effectiveness and can have a cumulative effect...that is what has happened to me. The OP's item as discribed would be an weak example of one rule alteration that WITH OTHERS could also have that effect. Do you seriously think after that PC gets his custome designed cheap item that other players won't want some special gifts of their own? In response to my post about having experience with a game where unlimited out of combat healing was readily available, you explicitly said you did and that it wrecked three games. Except that before that (and now after) you're saying that you have no experience with such a game, and that you're merely extrapolating from other, unrelated things that you do have experience with.
Jeff Merola wrote: Meager Rolmug wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: You've played in games where easy access to an unlimited source of out of combat healing where that specific thing wrecked the campaign? I'm confused, because earlier you stated that this thing wouldn't break a campaign. What are talking about? I said that changes to the rules tend to strongly favor a PC's effectiveness and can have a cumulative effect...that is what has happened to me. The OP's item as discribed would be an weak example of one rule alteration that WITH OTHERS could also have that effect. Do you seriously think after that PC gets his custome designed cheap item that other players won't want some special gifts of their own? In response to my post about having experience with a game where unlimited out of combat healing was readily available, you explicitly said you did and that it wrecked three games. Except that before that (and now after) you're saying that you have no experience with such a game, and that you're merely extrapolating from other, unrelated things that you do have experience with. NO, i did not ever "you explicitly said you did and that it wrecked three games".
Meager Rolmug wrote: NO, i did not ever "you explicitly said you did and that it wrecked three games". Look six posts up from this one. I'll also quote it for you.
Meager Rolmug wrote: I HAVE experience with this very thing recking 3 different campaigns. See, when you're responding to a post about unlimited healing, and you say you have experience with "this very thing" you're saying you have experience with unlimited healing, not some other thing that may or may not be related.
I siad "I HAVE experience with this very thing recking 3 different campaigns. And no its not perfectly balanced...nothing this complicated can be. And i've seen some changes being made that actually made things better. But the vast majority made the game worse IMHO."
I was referring to my earlier description of how too much bending of rules can get out of hand...not this small single change...i thought you would have been reading all my posts ....i suppose that was an oversight.
Uh, that's not what your post said. At all. See, when you respond directly to a post like that, you're responding in the context of that specific thing. So when I said that no one who was saying that this was a bad idea and should never be done seemed to have any actual experience with it, and you respond with "I HAVE experience with this very thing recking 3 different campaigns." the context of that post means you were claiming experience with what I was talking about, which was specifically unlimited out of combat healing.
Regardless i think you get my meaning, and we probably don't even disagree a great deal...The group i was in took ignoring the rules way too far...in each of the 3 campaigns being run...the PCs became so overpowered the GMs couldn't come up with workable combat senarios. Several players quit..eventually i did too. The battles were constantly all or nothing with often half the PCs being totally ineffective. Before i quit we started following more of the rules and it did get better...but than those players with the most overpowered PCs got resentful that they couldn't dominate any more....it was time to leave.
So i accidentally left out the word "type" between "I HAVE experience with this very" and "thing recking 3 different campaigns". Its pretty obvious in the context of everything else i posted what i was trying to say. A sentence structure mistake does not weaken my arguement or invalidate my opinion, which i will restate one more time. A little change of rules to allow the OPs item to exist is not by itself game-breaking. But if enough rules are bent it can and in my opinion is even likely to reduce player/GM fun.
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