Yuugasa |
Yuugasa wrote:That's an interesting idea. But we are talking about arcane surge here. If you want to convince other people about your idea that eschew materials is a new casting variant then you should start a new thread.Well, since we are apparently allowed to not only ignore the whole ability but anything more than a fragment of the first sentence; using the eschew materials example:
Eschew Materials
Benefit: You can cast any spell
with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.I get this for free as a 1st level sorcerer, suck my balls reality, wishes for everyone! True resurrection for free if you die! Let's go adventuring friends!
Edit: and I'll have you note, it specifically says "You can cast any spell." Not "You can cast any one spell." That means I can cast 100 different spells a round! I'll hit the BBEG with every attack spell there is, every round! Take that!!!!
I don't think it grants a spell casting variant, any more than Arcane Surge does. I agree that it literally says what it says but think that you have to make an effort at ignoring the context(or you really don't understand the context) to make it work that way.
master_marshmallow |
Here is an example of the logic some of you are trying to employ.
Statement: "You can breathe without giving me grapes."
Can we all except that this is true? Good.
What some of you are trying to say is that because that statement is true, you would not be able to breathe if you did not have grapes that could be given.
Your premise assumes something that is not true, then bases it's conclusion on that premise. Another fallacy.
In our case, needing to be able to cast spells to cast spells is true within the context of the game. The ability does nothing to disprove that.Yuugasa |
I would think the difference is one of grammar. Is the ability to cast any spell not the end of a sentence in arcane surge where eschew materials would be an obvious sentence fragment?
This is that first sentence: Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot.
This is the fragment people are concentrating on: Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot.
Rhedyn |
I would think the difference is one of grammar. Is the ability to cast any spell not the end of a sentence in arcane surge where eschew materials would be an obvious sentence fragment?
Oddly enough they both grant the ability to cast different kinds of any spell.
In the mythic ability it is any arcane spell. In the feat it is any spell with a material component of 1 gp or less.
One possible work around is that the feat says you must still provide all other material components for the spell. Would the slot, the somatic, or the verbal component be considered material? Or is this feat using material component as a special rule classification and not the English version of the word?
BigDTBone |
BigDTBone wrote:I don't think it grants a spell casting variant, any more than Arcane Surge does. I agree that it literally says what it says but think that you have to make an effort at ignoring the context(or you really don't understand the context) to make it work that way.Yuugasa wrote:That's an interesting idea. But we are talking about arcane surge here. If you want to convince other people about your idea that eschew materials is a new casting variant then you should start a new thread.Well, since we are apparently allowed to not only ignore the whole ability but anything more than a fragment of the first sentence; using the eschew materials example:
Eschew Materials
Benefit: You can cast any spell
with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.I get this for free as a 1st level sorcerer, suck my balls reality, wishes for everyone! True resurrection for free if you die! Let's go adventuring friends!
Edit: and I'll have you note, it specifically says "You can cast any spell." Not "You can cast any one spell." That means I can cast 100 different spells a round! I'll hit the BBEG with every attack spell there is, every round! Take that!!!!
Im confused. Either you do think the language in eschew materials grants spell casting, in which case you likely agree the arcane surge does; or you don't believe eschew materials grants spell casting, but that has no direct bearing on this conversation.
If you do think EM has bearing on this conversation then perhaps you could explicitly and specifically draw your comparisons. Saying that I "ignore" the entire rest of the ability is a lie though. You should read the OP again. Then give your specific examples of how you think the situations are similar and then draw us to your conclusion of why you think those similarities result in a different reading.
Rhedyn |
Rhedyn wrote:Your premise assumes something that is not true, then bases it's conclusion on that premise. Another fallacy.Here is an example of the logic some of you are trying to employ.
Statement: "You can breathe without giving me grapes."
Can we all accept that this is true? Good.
What some of you are trying to say is that because that statement is true, you would not be able to breathe if you did not have grapes that could be given.
You can't breathe without giving me grapes?
Great! I expect a large shipments of grapes soon.
EDIT: You should also look about the difference between validity and soundness.
BigDTBone |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Trogdar wrote:I would think the difference is one of grammar. Is the ability to cast any spell not the end of a sentence in arcane surge where eschew materials would be an obvious sentence fragment?Oddly enough they both grant the ability to cast different kinds of any spell.
In the mythic ability it is any arcane spell. In the feat it is any spell with a material component of 1 gp or less.
One possible work around is that the feat says you must still provide all other material components for the spell. Would the slot, the somatic, or the verbal component be considered material? Or is this feat using material component as a special rule classification and not the English version of the word?
Somatic, verbal, and material are each discrete components of a spell, and slot is not a component at all.
Suthuri |
Has any mentioned or considered that if your caster level were 0, the great majority of your spells would be completely harmless or useless?
This would be because, most spells either have level based duration or level based damage. Your summon monster spells would have a duration of zero rounds. Does this mean they don't appear or do they vanish the same second they appear? You could cast fire ball, but with 1d6 damage / level, it would do 0 damage every time. Might look impressive, but it would do nothing! There might be some spells with a base damage and duration, but that would be all you could cast. Your abilities would be very limited, so I'd be inclined to say that a commoner archmage would not be the mos powerful caster, but rather the most laughably harmless caster in the world.
That does raise the question though, what happens when an archmage with 0 caster levels summons a monster? Do we see it, or is the archmage just wiggling fingers and waving hands with the delusion of power?
Is this an underlying logical absurdity that answers the question? A 0-level caster is just, ultimately, not a spell-caster at all.
Yuugasa |
Im confused. Either you do think the language in eschew materials grants spell casting, in which case you likely agree the arcane surge does; or you don't believe eschew materials grants spell casting, but that has no direct bearing on this conversation.
If you do think EM has bearing on this conversation then perhaps you could explicitly and specifically draw your comparisons. Saying that I "ignore" the entire rest of the ability is a lie though. You should read the OP again. Then give your specific examples of how you...
The comparison is the you can cast any spell bits.
The ability arcane surge is written like many abilities are; It starts with a general statement then adds qualifiers to show you specifically how it works.
Both Eschew Materials and Arcane Surge are badly written and in many ways Eschew Materials is even more permissive, this is the first sentence of the ability: You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
It never qualifies that statement or walks it back in any way, reading what it literally says you can cast any non expensive spell, flat out.
Still, to do so you have to ignore the context and frame work of pretty much the entire rest of the game.
Arcane Surge is less permissive with qualifiers on how it works, the way it is written though you can ignore those qualifiers if you think it is not an either/or situation, but you are essentially ignoring the framework of the game again.
I don't actually think these abilities are that much of a problem, it's pretty easy to figure out how they are suppose to work(well for me anyway, maybe others really are confused, I can only speak for myself.)
In the end to me this is nothing more than a funny exploit and I was just poking fun at the concept, not looking to argue it seriously, apologies for any confusion, I completely acknowledge that your reading of the rules is right, in a literal sense.
BigDTBone |
Has any mentioned or considered that if your caster level were 0, the great majority of your spells would be completely harmless or useless?
This would be because, most spells either have level based duration or level based damage. Your summon monster spells would have a duration of zero rounds. Does this mean they don't appear or do they vanish the same second they appear? You could cast fire ball, but with 1d6 damage / level, it would do 0 damage every time. Might look impressive, but it would do nothing! There might be some spells with a base damage and duration, but that would be all you could cast. Your abilities would be very limited, so I'd be inclined to say that a commoner archmage would not be the mos powerful caster, but rather the most laughably harmless caster in the world.
That does raise the question though, what happens when an archmage with 0 caster levels summons a monster? Do we see it, or is the archmage just wiggling fingers and waving hands with the delusion of power?
Is this an underlying logical absurdity that answers the question? A 0-level caster is just, ultimately, not a spell-caster at all.
See: wish, time stop, power word X, mages disjunction, et cetera.
BigDTBone |
BigDTBone wrote:
Im confused. Either you do think the language in eschew materials grants spell casting, in which case you likely agree the arcane surge does; or you don't believe eschew materials grants spell casting, but that has no direct bearing on this conversation.
If you do think EM has bearing on this conversation then perhaps you could explicitly and specifically draw your comparisons. Saying that I "ignore" the entire rest of the ability is a lie though. You should read the OP again. Then give your specific examples of how you...
The comparison is the you can cast any spell bits.
The ability arcane surge is written like many abilities are; It starts with a general statement then adds qualifiers to show you specifically how it works.
Both Eschew Materials and Arcane Surge are badly written and in many ways Eschew Materials is even more permissive, this is the first sentence of the ability: You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
It never qualifies that statement or walks it back in any way, reading what it literally says you can cast any non expensive spell, flat out.
Still, to do so you have to ignore the context and frame work of pretty much the entire rest of the game.
Arcane Surge is less permissive with qualifiers on how it works, the way it is written though you can ignore those qualifiers if you think it is not an either/or situation, but you are essentially ignoring the framework of the game again.
I don't actually think these abilities are that much of a problem, it's pretty easy to figure out how they are suppose to work(well for me anyway, maybe others really are confused, I can only speak for myself.)
In the end to me this is nothing more than a funny exploit and I was just poking fun at the concept, not looking to argue it seriously, apologies for any confusion, I completely acknowledge that your reading of the rules is right, in a literal sense.
Cheers!
BigDTBone |
i didnt limit it, i did say "or something" but those other things DO require a UMD, which will be restrictive based on the level of the martial.
One of the big points in the mythic fighter vs wizard thread is that people seem to think fighters would never take UMD (or at least don't concider it to be a typical thing.) when magic is real you learn to use it. Fighters have the opportunity to put their feats to work for them.
Skill focus/magical aptitude/class skill trait/14 CHA/1 rank will give a 55% to activate a wand at first level. Add in a +5 item, headband, and 9 more ranks will go upto a +31 at 10th level. That is a 75% chance to activate a CL17 scroll.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Rhedyn wrote:Your premise assumes something that is not true, then bases it's conclusion on that premise. Another fallacy.Here is an example of the logic some of you are trying to employ.
Statement: "You can breathe without giving me grapes."
Can we all accept that this is true? Good.
What some of you are trying to say is that because that statement is true, you would not be able to breathe if you did not have grapes that could be given.
You can't breathe without giving me grapes?
Great! I expect a large shipments of grapes soon.
EDIT: You should also look about the difference between validity and soundness.
So your conclusion is that the first half of the first sentence of this ability proves that in the game of Pathfinder you do not need the ability to cast spells in order to cast spells?
Because that is not what the ability says, at all.Drawing such a conclusion has no grounds, validity, or soundness.
WWWW |
kikidmonkey wrote:i didnt limit it, i did say "or something" but those other things DO require a UMD, which will be restrictive based on the level of the martial.One of the big points in the mythic fighter vs wizard thread is that people seem to think fighters would never take UMD (or at least don't concider it to be a typical thing.) when magic is real you learn to use it. Fighters have the opportunity to put their feats to work for them.
Skill focus/magical aptitude/class skill trait/14 CHA/1 rank will give a 55% to activate a wand at first level. Add in a +5 item, headband, and 9 more ranks will go upto a +31 at 10th level. That is a 75% chance to activate a CL17 scroll.
Eh, fighters taking UMD in a class comparison can be a perfectly reasonable thing for objection. Depending on how it is used, it may fail the commoner test. Or if the gold expenditure is too high that may mean a character is only useful for too short of a run of challenges and thereafter is useless which can be considered a problem.
kikidmonkey |
kikidmonkey wrote:i didnt limit it, i did say "or something" but those other things DO require a UMD, which will be restrictive based on the level of the martial.One of the big points in the mythic fighter vs wizard thread is that people seem to think fighters would never take UMD (or at least don't concider it to be a typical thing.) when magic is real you learn to use it. Fighters have the opportunity to put their feats to work for them.
Skill focus/magical aptitude/class skill trait/14 CHA/1 rank will give a 55% to activate a wand at first level. Add in a +5 item, headband, and 9 more ranks will go upto a +31 at 10th level. That is a 75% chance to activate a CL17 scroll.
Oh, I don't think that a fighter wouldnt take UMD, I did on my last fighter (never got to use it though), my point was only that, given any particular level, the investment needed to use something other than a potion MAY be greater than a fighter is willing to spend.
Yes the fighter can UMD a scroll/wand/staff, but at earlier levels (pre 10), the cost/availability/DC of said items may be too great/unreliable. If you are making a fighter, AND have a DM that will let you do the Arch mage trick, AND you have leftover cash for staves and CL 17 scrolls after all your gear purchase, you probably should have just played a natural caster in the first place. i mean, bloodrager/magus is right there.
Now i know this thread isn't about being "reasonable" but there is a limit.
Rhedyn |
Rhedyn wrote:master_marshmallow wrote:Rhedyn wrote:Your premise assumes something that is not true, then bases it's conclusion on that premise. Another fallacy.Here is an example of the logic some of you are trying to employ.
Statement: "You can breathe without giving me grapes."
Can we all accept that this is true? Good.
What some of you are trying to say is that because that statement is true, you would not be able to breathe if you did not have grapes that could be given.
You can't breathe without giving me grapes?
Great! I expect a large shipments of grapes soon.
EDIT: You should also look about the difference between validity and soundness.
So your conclusion is that the first half of the first sentence of this ability proves that in the game of Pathfinder you do not need the ability to cast spells in order to cast spells?
Because that is not what the ability says, at all.
Drawing such a conclusion has no grounds, validity, or soundness.
Look all I know, is that by your admission, you need to give me some grapes.
I will help facilitate this for the following reasons:
1) I love grapes.
2) I do not want you to die from asphyxiation.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Rhedyn wrote:master_marshmallow wrote:Rhedyn wrote:Your premise assumes something that is not true, then bases it's conclusion on that premise. Another fallacy.Here is an example of the logic some of you are trying to employ.
Statement: "You can breathe without giving me grapes."
Can we all accept that this is true? Good.
What some of you are trying to say is that because that statement is true, you would not be able to breathe if you did not have grapes that could be given.
You can't breathe without giving me grapes?
Great! I expect a large shipments of grapes soon.
EDIT: You should also look about the difference between validity and soundness.
So your conclusion is that the first half of the first sentence of this ability proves that in the game of Pathfinder you do not need the ability to cast spells in order to cast spells?
Because that is not what the ability says, at all.
Drawing such a conclusion has no grounds, validity, or soundness.Look all I know, is that by your admission, you need to give me some grapes.
I will help facilitate this for the following reasons:
1) I love grapes.
2) I do not want you to die from asphyxiation.
Two things:
1) You do not need grapes to breathe.2) Are cranberries okay?
Tacticslion |
Has any mentioned or considered that if your caster level were 0, the great majority of your spells would be completely harmless or useless?
I considered it a little earlier and explained how it might function. There are actually a surprisingly large number of useful effects, despite the lack of a CL. (Even cure spells are available, though they all receive +0 to their healing after you roll the dice.)
Basically, it has it's uses, though it's not going to be nearly as potent as an actual caster using time stop.
Out of curiosity, is there anything a martial can really DO during a time stop, that would be particularly useful?
Originally I thought "nothing", but then I realized "nothing martial" when my wife pointed out the utility of potions or other buffs. Most buffs from Arcane Surge would be useless, but a potions, wands, staves, scrolls, or even activated magic items could all be really handy to have. Lose initiative? Time stop, move that way a ways, and then buff yourself.
It's actually a pretty good battlefield control, allowing you substantial mobility, and thus choosing where you are when time gets back into play.
I mean, even flinging alchemical items is a valid thing, setting them up to go off when needed.
Tacticslion |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The comparison is the you can cast any spell bits.
The ability arcane surge is written like many abilities are; It starts with a general statement then adds qualifiers to show you specifically how it works.
Both Eschew Materials and Arcane Surge are badly written and in many ways Eschew Materials is even more permissive, this is the first sentence of the ability: You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
It never qualifies that statement or walks it back in any way, reading what it literally says you can cast any non expensive spell, flat out.
Still, to do so you have to ignore the context and frame work of pretty much the entire rest of the game.
While I've been silent on the feat, as it seemed intriguingly possible, I finally have a counter to it, and it's because of this post. Thank you.
It notes that you can cast any spell with a material component of 1 gp or less without needing that component. What it doesn't do is allow you to cast a spell without expending a spell slot which, until arcane surge, was the only way to cast a spell. Bear in mind, using spell-like abilities are not casting spells (as called out in the Core), which sidesteps that issue entirely (though they do count as able to cast spells for purposes of entering prestige classes... which is weird).
That said, I, as a GM, read arcane surge to be an ability that allows you to cast spells... without the need to expend a spell slot. Which is pretty unique. I also read it as requiring material components, which means that eschew material components would be a good feat for an archmage.
Arcane Surge is less permissive with qualifiers on how it works, the way it is written though you can ignore those qualifiers if you think it is not an either/or situation, but you are essentially ignoring the framework of the game again.
What it does that eschew material components does not is allow you to cast spells without slots. I think this is what BigTDBone was trying to say before ("doesn't provide a mechanism"), but I wasn't really getting that under those words, so here I am trying these out instead.
While I can understand the reading that allows it to do anything, I think that's pretty solid, for me.
I also think the difference between arch mage and eschew material components is important: investment. In the latter you invest a feat. In the former, you invest your entire mythic path, banking it all on a pretty cool, but ultimately limited ability that lacks access to all of the most broken magical combos and effects in the game. It's a heavy investment for a decent pay-off.
(While one could take Dual Path as a feat and access this, which is a better idea, I'd say, you're still sacrificing a mythic feat for the privilege - a relatively rare resource, and it still shackles your choices to to the arch mage path - there are far more advantageous options for a martial in mythic.)
It also provides a limit to the ability, unlike the feat, again allowing itself to be more internally balanced. (And see below.)
I don't actually think these abilities are that much of a problem, it's pretty easy to figure out how they are suppose to work(well for me anyway, maybe others really are confused, I can only speak for myself.)
In the end to me this is nothing more than a funny exploit and I was just poking fun at the concept, not looking to argue it seriously, apologies for any confusion, I completely acknowledge that your reading of the rules is right, in a literal sense.
I find that the difference between how it's supposed to work, and how it fits in with working is rather interesting.
Personally, however, I find the idea of a fighter with archmage to be a fantastic character concept, one that actively helps create interesting stories and brings some measure of balance to a character.
I agree that it's an exploit, but the idea that it's a ridiculous one is somewhat baffling: we're talking about a mythic character able to literally become a god. Not too worried.
Beyond that, it's access to a powerful ability that drops the most divests itself of the most broken abilities in the game, while permitting an oft-maligned (for being one-note) character concepts to be expanded upon and hold a great many more options than they normally would.
This is not being confused, at least on my part. This is being enthused (at least on my part).
I find this to be something that can work and can have good results because of it.
To me (facetiously), it comes off as: "Run in terror, a relatively balanced ability exists in mythic that some don't like because it allows limited spellcasting to non-casters! Flee! Flee while you can!"
I dunno. While I could have a martial that literally one-shots everything the party comes across (again) unless they're in constant danger of TPK or a I go way beyond the rules; I'd rather GM for a martial who could meditate on the way of the blade and come up with insight into the path he should choose, or perhaps be a simple word and firm touch heal his comrades (or even raise the dead!) through his deep understanding of physicality, or perhaps allow an opponent he's just punched repeatedly know that they're already dead as they explode behind him while he walks away. Those things just sound cooler to me, somehow.
To have that available within the rules is exciting to me.
It's perfectly reasonable for people not to like it. That's fine.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to read things differently. That's fine.
But, it must be stressed, it's perfectly reasonable for people to read things in the 'it's possible' sense, as well - it's not a confused state of mind that permits such effects as a GM without thinking about the broader implications on the rules and game system. Point in fact, it's kind of the opposite, though I'd like a player to do a lot of the ground work for me, because it could be really exciting as a GM to see what they come up with in a game session.
137ben |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tacticslion has indirectly given me a good idea:
Until now, there has been two abilities in MA that I have banned completely, and those are Wild Arcana and its counterpart Inspired Spell. The reason is that they remove the principle limitation of spontaneous casters. But based on Tacticslion's interpretation of Arcane Surge, I'm probably going to start allowing WA/IS with the following modification: change the sentence
When casting a spell in this way, you treat your caster level as 2 levels higher for the purpose of any effect dependent on level.
to
When casting a spell in this way, you treat your caster level as caster level 0 for the purpose of any effect dependent on level.
With the interpretation that specific overrides general, so you can cast higher level spells at CL 0. I might change it to CL 1 instead. There are still a few spells which are really powerful with CL 0, but some of them are spells that would normally be spammed (i.e., spells that a sorcerer/favored soul would take anyways). I'm not familiar with all the pathfinder splats, but an awful lot of the mainstay 3.5 spells wouldn't be particularly potent at CL 0 or 1.
kikidmonkey |
Originally I thought "nothing", but then I realized "nothing martial" when my wife pointed out the utility of potions or other buffs. Most buffs from Arcane Surge would be useless, but a potions, wands, staves, scrolls, or even activated magic items could all be really handy to have. Lose initiative? Time stop, move that way a ways, and then buff yourself.
It's actually a pretty good battlefield control, allowing you substantial mobility, and thus choosing where you are when time gets back into play.
I mean, even flinging alchemical items is a valid thing, setting them up to go off when needed.
but is any of that BETTER than having just gone Champion? With Champion, you could just spend a swift to move and strike, and then full attack.
Or take limitless range and mythic far shot on some cheap thrown items, which will likely do more damage than alchemical items.
Tacticslion |
I never said "better" - I said "cool".
Time stop isn't the best thing a fighter (or most martials) could do with this ability.
A martial with various cure abilities (including breath of life and regenerate), the remove line of spells (d20+0 is still a chance v. the DC), and reincarnate (due to witches casting arcane spells, and reincarnate appearing on their list) is actually really, really compelling.
Awaken is a spell that I hadn't thought of that's really, really awesome.
Mythic Nature-themed Rogue: "My friends. It is time. I must call upon your help to rise and protect our lands."
Tree: "Sure thing, buddy." OR Wolf: "I will be your flanking companion!"
So. Cool.
Also, I love 137ben's idea - I don't know that I'd use it in my games, but it's a really cool house rule to help balance and maintain the feel of limited spells known.
Tacticslion |
You didn't actually read my post (EDIT: or if you did, you didn't catch the implication): they are arcane spells by way of witch (EDIT: and bard).
EDIT 2: Ah, you mean remove fear (I wasn't thinking of it), and remove paralysis and breath of life (I was wrong on those two), which are exclusively "divine"*. Still, I'll take my reincarnate and regenerate and run. :)
EDIT 4: Ah! Yeah, I included awaken (which I see now, from your post below) - gotcha, I can see where the confusion lies. I did go beyond the initial premise of Arcane Surge to the Heirophant equivalent "recalled blessing". My apologies for being less than clear.
EDIT 3: See, the thing is, it adds such interest and versatility to the character. Yes, you could get scrolls or potions or whatever... or you could have the ability yourself without spending a dime. You could spend a feat (or, even better, a path feature for all the feats) to create your own magical stuff.
The disconnect we seem to be having is that you're saying "this isn't the most powerful thing you can choose" which I agree with entirely - of course it's not, and I covered that with my big post above. What it does do, however, is create really cool character concepts, enabling things that would otherwise be impossible, and opens the door to showing creativity and cleverness by those who want to do that.
* EDIT 3: So far. Also, the other remove spells do appear on some arcane list or another, hence my previous use of the catch-all term, in case you were wondering.
kikidmonkey |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
awaken and breath of life are learned only by divine casters (at least from my research)
*COUNTER EDIT!* My argument isnt about Power, but of Efficiency, I have no problems playing weak(er) characters for coolness factor, but in this case, there is an better way to do it, that has the added benefit of not getting slapped by your DM.
*EDIT 2: The Re-editoring* I am, of course, assuming we are using a FIGHTER for these arguments, and not some other class, that may get more out of it.
Tacticslion |
awaken and breath of life are learned only by divine casters (at least from my research)
*COUNTER EDIT!* My argument isnt about Power, but of Efficiency, I have no problems playing weak(er) characters for coolness factor, but in this case, there is an better way to do it, that has the added benefit of not getting slapped by your DM.
*EDIT 2: The Re-editoring* I am, of course, assuming we are using a FIGHTER for these arguments, and not some other class, that may get more out of it.
I think it works out quite well for the majority of games. The fighter is already super-efficient at what he normally does (kill things thoroughly), and the other martials have been repeatedly shown to be valuable and easily able to contribute to the team (with the possible exception of Rogue, depending on the game).
[It's worth noting, I don't think a paladin or ranger could really use this ability at all. A monk would actually get a caster level (though lacking a requisite ability score, barring certain archetypes), making it substantially more dangerous. A rogue could also get a caster level, but I forget if that increases or not.]On the other hand, martials are generally not known for their flexibility and freedom of options: this grants that. It's also really freaking cool!
EDIT:
Now for a Cool spell to use, Polymorph any object, duration dependent on how similar the target is to the chosen form, instead of CL
This is exactly what I mean! So awesome!
Suthuri |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unfortunately, there is a third parameter that is sometimes limited by level, and that's target. Polymorph any object has the target: "one creature, or one non-magical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level", so in the case of this spell, a CL 0 archmage could cast the spell, and hold the charge indefinitely but never be able to target anything with the spell. I feel like it's just so close! Too bad, really.
That said though, I looked again at the power word spells, and none of their parameters are limited by level at all. A fighter with the archmage mythic ability could literally kill and strike her foes blind with a word. That would be scary!
I really like all the concepts that were mentioned- nature themed rogues, healing fighters, and the best about it is that no one would likely be able to guess what is going on. A martial character using time stop would likely be very disorienting for the enemy, and that by itself would be an advantage.
It raises the question though: if we put ourselves into the minds of fighters, following the warrior's path, why would any such a person choose to be an archmage instead going further on the warrior's path? I don't mean to question the viability of these ideas, rather I mean to raise a question about mythic power, in general. If we allow CL 0 archmages to exist, then it seems to me to imply that the form mythic power takes is not always a choice- if it ever is.
It may be a choice for the player, but the characters may find some source of mythic power, and they wouldn't really know what it is, so it affects them in bizarre and unpredictable ways. Maybe the mythic power finds them. Even the weaker side of this idea becomes interesting if one contemplates what source of mythic power would give someone something so incomplete, yet oddly useful.
I don't know mythic that well, so if I am missing something really obvious, I'd like it lots if someone pointed it out to me.
Anyway, I hope this isn't getting too off topic, because I'd really like what people would suggest for the story behind the fighter with archmage magic, or for the rogue with the awakened animal friends.
Tacticslion |
Ah! Good catch, Suthuri. I'd mentioned it under fabricate and true creation, but I'd forgotten about PAO.
I think it's interesting, and the idea of "why" a character has the power they are is just as fascinating and worth exploring in individual gaming tables and stories as the "how" - it's really nifty.
As for fighters, the idea of a martial, even a martial who has no solid spiritualism about them, somehow coming to grips with/terms of the universe due to their own expertise (even as other things are more powerful) is a theme that is repeated often enough in written works, visual media (tv, movie, etc.), and games of all kinds.
The "why" is something of a deeper mystery of the universe in which the media expresses.
For example, the game Asura's Wrath is all about a guy who, because he gets angry enough, is able to change the nature of reality around him (as well as break gods). I'd easily see this as a barbarian with arcane surge.
Heck, anime is replete with the idea that a character, through sheer willpower, can overcome their own weaknesses, heal their own wounds (well, effectively), and so on: this concept is well explored in that media, I think.
Or what of a completely mundane warrior who, at the point of falling in combat, speaks a prayer and suddenly is back on his feet, and returns to the enemy with greater force? (cure spells)
Or the concept of a warrior who, not knowing where to go, follows his intuition. (augury or divination)
That sort of thing.
EDIT: heh, oops. Gave you a shorthand name!
Yuugasa |
@-Tacticslion- I was only talking about the reading of the rules, not if it is cool or balanced or whatever. I have no fear of "unbalanced" rules, especially in the context of running a specific game.
One of the common games I run for new people I play with is my campaign based on the Shannara fantasy setting, in it you begin as a level one commoner with an ability known as the 'Wishsong' a genetic inheritance from your noble ancestors.
The Wishsong allows you to cast the wish spell at will with only a verbal component, CL 20 DC 19+Cha mod. Yes, you get this as a level 1 commoner.
'Wish for it, sing for it, it is yours.' Is a line from the ability write up in my homemade player's companion guide I hand my players before they make a character.
So yeah, if you want arcane surge in your games to work that way I fully support it, I was just teasing the concepts surrounding what I see as an exploit.
Yuugasa |
@Tacticslion-Really when you come down to it Eschew Materials provides a more advantageous spell casting system for the player than Arcane Surge does.
And saying Arcane Surge does work because it's mythic and slightly more balanced theoretically and has a system for fueling spells while Eschew Materials doesn't is cherry picking nonsense. Both rules when read as providing spell casting ability to non casters based on their language completely ignore 90% of the game as previously established. If Arcane Surge is more valid because it is more specific and less permissive how about reading the rest of the Arcane Surge ability? It gets even more specific and less permissive until it is, in fact, valid.
Tacticslion |
@-Tacticslion- I was only talking about the reading of the rules, not if it is cool or balanced or whatever. I have no fear of "unbalanced" rules, especially in the context of running a specific game.
I can see that. I also look at it through a different lens, however, and was explaining that lens, not telling you how to look at it.
One of the common games I run for new people I play with is my campaign based on the Shannara fantasy setting, in it you begin as a level one commoner with an ability known as the 'Wishsong' a genetic inheritance from your noble ancestors.
The Wishsong allows you to cast the wish spell at will with only a verbal component, CL 20 DC 19+Cha mod. Yes, you get this as a level 1 commoner.
'Wish for it, sing for it, it is yours.' Is a line from the ability write up in my homemade player's companion guide I hand my players before they make a character.
So yeah, if you want arcane surge in your games to work that way I fully support it, I was just teasing the concepts surrounding what I see as an exploit.
Shanara is a great series and I heart it. I strongly suspect that the accuracy of the description Wishsong is over-sold in the books though - that quote doesn't really work out at all, as-written (or rather, if it works, it works on a literal basis with lots of unintended side-effects, such as a really stressed out tree - certainly not what a young girl was wishing for).
Sounds like a fun game, though!
@Tacticslion-Really when you come down to it Eschew Materials provides a more advantageous spell casting system for the player than Arcane Surge does.
Only if you read it that way (which you are welcome to do, as you like).
And saying Arcane Surge does work because it's mythic and slightly more balanced theoretically and has a system for fueling spells while Eschew Materials doesn't is cherry picking nonsense.
This is blatantly false. It's cherry-picking, yes, but it's not nonsense, any more than anyone else's parsing of the rules, up to and including that you must be a spellcaster before using your abilities.
Both rules when read as providing spell casting ability to non casters based on their language completely ignore 90% of the game as previously established.
Actually, no: Arcane Surge provides arcane spellcasting ability without needing slots (but still needing everything else), while Eschew Material Components provides spellcasting without needing material components (but still needing everything else - this includes slots).
There is no contradiction in that reading. If you insist that there is, and you have a problem with that, than the problem is exclusively with your reading thereof.
If, on the other hand, you don't want it to work in your game, don't read it that way.
If Arcane Surge is more valid because it is more specific and less permissive how about reading the rest of the Arcane Surge ability? It gets even more specific and less permissive until it is, in fact, valid.
Now this is just nonsense, as you call it. The idea that I didn't read it is patently nonsense, considering I've responded to most of the parts previously (or others have).
This statement comes off as incredibly arrogant and condescending.
If you didn't mean it that way, that's fine: please refrain from suggesting that people have failed to see what you do, and try to remember that people may see exactly what you do, but come to a different conclusion; if you already realize that, than that's a great thing, but this part of your post doesn't reflect it.
Scythia |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing did occur to me, that even among those of us who would be willing to use this in game, makes it a not great ability for a fighter. This is the ability to cast arcane spells, and fighter is almost always wearing armour. Armour has an arcane spell failure chance.
So maybe better for a wild magic rogue?
Tacticslion |
... that... is a great point! Not something I'd thought of. Hm... more to think about...
(Recalled blessing is still awesome for that heavy armor, though!)
... although, actually, it would work really well if it's a rogue-like thing, with, say, the idea that all mages are really tricksters of some sort.
Joseph Davis |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will point out a similar situation, that may have already been mentioned (not going to read 500+ posts) that Divine Source gives you spell like abilities of your chosen domain spells. As they are spell-like abilities you ignore components ("A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus.") so if you choose the right domains you CAN get spells like Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection as free SLA's.
Also, there are reasons for non-mages to get stuff from Archmage, just not enough to GO archmage, for example; Crafting Mastery, Elemental Bond, Enhance Magic Item, Familiar Link (need eldritch heritage, but you get the idea), Sensory Link, Telekinetic Master, Enduring Armor, Eldritch Flight, Eldritch Reciprocation, Sanctum and Star Walker.
Granted, some of those are less useful, but one stands out for me; Enduring Armor generates a force effect armor (thus adding to the ac vs. incorporeal enemies, but no other touch attacks,)but with Mythic Paragon at 10th tier, your armor bonus from Enduring Armor is 15, which is higher than +5 full plate can be (barring external modifiers like feats or traits.)