How to Keep Player Involved in Blakrose Matrimony

[Swiftbrook]

I'm running Blakrose Matrimony if a few weeks at a con. I remember playing this with my low Cha, few skills Dwarf fighter and it was a long adventure. As I recall, I was able to make one History skill check to either aid or get some information during the roleplaying portion of the adventure. I did provide a little comic relief when my dwarf pulled out his axe and started to sharpen it in the middle of the reception. The look on the GMs face was worth it!

So I need some ideas, noting that we're not using the faction missions, when I have one or two players with a low skill, low Cha PC sit down at my table, how can I keep them engaged/involved/entertained for the two or so hours of roleplaying?

[BigNorseWolf]

Drinking contests

The ensuing Drunken Axe beak croquet on the back lawn

The character gets in charge of playing weekend at burneys with a guest that is drunk but still needs to make an appearence.

Hide the girl who popped out of the cake at the bachelor party and is now in love with Damian

[aboyd]

You can do assists with knowledge checks, right? I mean, if you don't have the knowledge skill, then I think by the rules you are capped at getting DC 10 checks. However, DC 10 is what you need to hit when you are trying to assist. So a character with an INT of 6 and no ranks in knowledge would need to roll a 12 or higher to get a 10. If the player rolled higher than the 10 needed, by the rules it would be capped at 10. However, in any case, that's enough to perform the Aid Another action. So a low INT, low CHA dwarf (for example) could be doing Aid Another all over the place, and earning +2s for lots of other players who have skills.

Also, when I played though it, before the start of the game, the GM asked us all to leaf through our chronicle sheets and see if we had ever played a certain module or two. If we had, then he role played that the NPCs already knew us, and that gave some of us an "in" with the NPCs regardless of skill ranks. I don't know if that's considered fair play by PFS rules, but I really appreciated it.

[Leathert]

aboyd wrote:

You can do assists with knowledge checks, right? I mean, if you don't have the knowledge skill, then I think by the rules you are capped at getting DC 10 checks. However, DC 10 is what you need to hit when you are trying to assist.

Not really. Quoting from Core Rulebook:

"In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone."

Knowledge checks restrict who can achieve the results (what with the hard cap of DC 10 if untrained), so you couldn't aid if you aren't trained in the knoledge skill.

[aboyd]

I... don't think that follows. The rules are not suggesting that you cannot make a check if you cannot hit the DC; the rules are suggesting that you cannot make the check if you cannot use the skill. While Knowledge skills are trained only, there is an exception that says that the skills are usable untrained but capped at a result of DC 10, which is conveniently the DC for Aid Another. So that's a very different situation from being completely blocked.

Here is someone in another forum who just assumed "we can all make the knowledge (local) check to aid another because it is a DC 10." They of course may not be right, and I'm not citing them as a source for clarifying the rule, but I am suggesting that it's common enough for people to assume that this is by the rules OK.

On the one hand, I would really like the people playing through Blakros Matrimony to have a chance to contribute, instead of sitting around watching other players doing everything. On the other hand, I do not like the idea of 100 farmers doing Aid Another on Knowledge (physics) to reach a normally impossible DC and build a nuclear bomb.

Still, I kinda thought the point of Aid Another was to help a player achieve a DC that he or she normally couldn't reach. Nobody in the party can achieve a DC 30 Perception? OK, Aid Another. Now you stacked 4 bonuses and can hit it. If we're not allowed to Aid Another unless we can reach the DC ourselves, then Aid Another is essentially the same thing as a single character taking 20.

Having said all that, I am an idiot. I may not know what I am talking about.

[Eryx_UK]

I always assume that Knowledge checks can be assisted rolls because characters can talk together and share information.

[Jeff Merola]

aboyd wrote:

Still, I kinda thought the point of Aid Another was to help a player achieve a DC that he or she normally couldn't reach. Nobody in the party can achieve a DC 30 Perception? OK, Aid Another. Now you stacked 4 bonuses and can hit it. If we're not allowed to Aid Another unless we can reach the DC ourselves, then Aid Another is essentially the same thing as a single character taking 20.

Having said all that, I am an idiot. I may not know what I am talking about.

Aid Another is completely unrestricted for skills that can be made untrained. It's only for Trained Only skills that you're limited to only granting a bonus up to what you can make yourself. Only have a +2 Perception, but want to aid vs a DC 50? Sure, go ahead. Only have a +2 Disable Deveice and want to aid vs a DC 50? Sorry, it's beyond your understanding.

[aboyd]

Where do you come up with that? Is it from the text that Leathert quoted? Because when I read that text, all I see is "you can't Aid Another if you can't use the skill," not "you can't Aid Another if you can't reach the DC."

Are the other texts that are more clear?

[Oykiv]

Inthink is from

Core rulebook page 86 wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

It not says use the skill, but achieve certain results what, in my opinion, refers perfectly to the DC of a knowledge check.

So, as the Knowledge skill restricts an untrained character* to pass a DC 11+ check you can´t aid with that. *Not conting bards and similar exceptions.

EDIT: Can we go back to the original question, I know is my fault too, but I´m also interest in the question.

[Jeff Merola]

aboyd wrote:

Where do you come up with that? Is it from the text that Leathert quoted? Because when I read that text, all I see is "you can't Aid Another if you can't use the skill," not "you can't Aid Another if you can't reach the DC."

Are the other texts that are more clear?

Reread that section. I'll bold the relevant bit:

Quote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.

It doesn't say you can't Aid Another if you're not trained, it says you can't aid to accomplish something your character couldn't do on their own. If the DC is higher than 20+your modifier, you can't do it alone, thus you cannot aid on it.

[Chris Mortika]

You folks all have the Collective Recollection teamwork feat from the Pathfinder Society Primer, right? Because that's the feat you need, in order to aid another on Knowledge checks.

[Jeff Merola]

Chris Mortika wrote:

You folks all have the Collective Recollection teamwork feat from the Pathfinder Society Primer, right? Because that's the feat you need, in order to aid another on Knowledge checks.

That feat just lets you do it as a free action, rather than the usual standard of Aid Another. Note how it lacks a line along the lines of "Normal: You cannot aid another on knowledge checks."

[Chris Mortika]

Thanks, Jeff.

There's always issues around "Can you Aid Another on Knowledge checks?" I allow it, but I've played under several GMs who don't. I'd thought that this feat addresses that issue.

[Swiftbrook]

Oykiv wrote:

EDIT: Can we go back to the original question, I know is my fault too, but I´m also interest in the question.

Me too.

OK so I'm going to assume miss socially inept can aid another with a knowledge check as long as the person they are aiding doesn't roll a 19 or 20 (the "you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone" rule).

Any other ideas how to keep the player involved?

[Chris Mortika]

Well, the blurb about the adventure strongly hints that this is going to be a dress-up mission. If you decide to send your 6th-level feral barbarian instead of your 4th-level diplo-sorcerer (or the pre-gen bard), then there you go. You've chosen to play a character who's not optimized for this sort of adventure. How entertained you can be is your problem.

[GM Lamplighter]

One of our PCs was a dervish dancer, and so I had the Qadiran faction head challenge them to a dance contest - became pretty memorable. Also, although they are not listed as an official NPC to talk to, I fleshed out the Hellknight contingent who were there, who probably took Damien Kastner out for a Hellknight bachelor party the night before - this group can give a place for non-face characters to hang out and do stuff, even though it doesn't turn into influence points. It also lets you utilize them as background in the later scenes if you want.

I also let players roleplay without giving them major penalties when they are talking to someone that has no game effect. This allows the low-Cha folks to make friends with the Hellknights or others and keeps them involved, without giving any real in-game bonuses. (I guess I'm really just giving them circumstance bonuses for all being hung over together...)

[outshyn]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

giving them circumstance bonuses

It is true that circumstance bonuses are by-the-rules legal, available at GM whim, and haven't been removed by the PFS rulebook. It's one instance of table variation that has been preserved, and there is no guidance that insists all GMs handle it in a similar fashion. It may be that 1 GM gives them out like candy and everyone loves it, while another GM rarely gives them out and has quietly assigned some circumstance penalties instead.

So that seems like an extremely good option here. This is a case where I would definitely look back at a character's previous sessions to see if they had already met anyone, and if so, give them a chance to strike up conversations or do introductions or otherwise be useful. And if the player can role play that well, I would have no problem handing out a bunch of +2s everywhere.

If they role played it well.

[The Masked Ferret]

Just be sure to watch out for the Spring Attacking Wraiths on the low tier.