Alignment and the Incredibles

[Douglas Muir 406]

Yes, yes, an alignment thread. I'm going somewhere with this. -- So, just watched The Incredibles with the kids, and it occurs to me that some aspects of this movie fit the classic D&D alignment system neatly.

Bob (Mr. Incredible) Parr is Neutral Good. He just wants to be a hero and help people and save the world! He's neither lawful nor chaotic -- he is, purely and simply, a do-gooder. He literally can't bring himself to do an evil act (killing Mirage).

The regime he lives under for most of the movie is Lawful Neutral. Superheroes are chaotic and messy, so let's get rid of them. What matters is not right or wrong, but order and following the rules. Notice Bob's government handler's reaction? He's not upset with Bob for crippling the evil boss, but neither is he understanding of Bob's frustration. He's weary and annoyed because Bob is _not following the rules_.

Helen (Elastigirl) Parr is completely Lawful Good. She's not delighted about the regime they live under, but she doesn't chafe under it the way Bob does. She, not Bob, is the one who's always giving rules to the kids; she, not Bob, gets annoyed when people don't do what's _correct_ (as opposed to what's right). Notice her complete disbelief at the possibility that the island might fire missiles at an unarmed civilian aircraft. That's why she spends five minutes going CAN'T YOU HEAR ME? instead of getting the hell out of that plane. And then the first thing she does after crashing on the island is sit the kids down and explain the new rules to them.

She's not Lawful Stupid. She bounces back from that and does a much better job of rescuing Bob than he was doing of rescuing himself, and in general she's at least as smart and competent as he is. But being Lawful does give her a bit of a blind spot. See also how easily she's suckered by Bob's tales of promotions and conferences.

Bob's evil boss is of course completely Lawful Evil. "He's hurt!" "Well let's hope he's not insured with us, heh heh." Notice that he commits the classic LE error of overdominating and pushing a minion too far.

Most of the other characters are not sketched out in enough detail to provide an alignment (and, of course, the classic alignment system is a very imperfect tool at best). Syndrome is probably NE, the utterly self-centered sociopath variant, though I supposed you could argue for CE. Maybe Edna is true Neutral (good bad law chaos, bah I serve ART!). Leave that bide.

What's interesting is that Bob and Helen are both flawed characters, and flawed in ways that fit neatly into alignment. Bob's flaw is that he's frustrated (because he can't do good) and frustration makes him cranky and ill-tempered for most of the first third of the movie. (This is one of several places where the movie does a really good job of threading a needle -- they had to emphasize Bob's frustration and despair without making us dislike him. Harder than it looks.) NG characters aren't all sweetness and light, and that's doubly so if they're not being allowed to express their nature. Bob never does anything really bad, but he gets shifty and dishonest and kind of unpleasant to be around.

Helen's flaw is that she's gullible: she's following the rules, so she reflexively thinks everyone else will too. (And she gets pissed off when they don't, in a way that Bob doesn't.) Again, both psychologically plausible and consistent with the alignment system.

TLDR: you could totally grab these personality types for your campaign, either as a player or a DM.

Doug M.

[Tacticslion]

Dash is CG (and not a very wise one) - an individualist who doesn't realize his pranks are actively harmful.

Violet, I think, is NG with a leaning toward law, but inhibited by her childish nature.

I generally agree with your assessment otherwise. I wanted to peg Bob as more chaotic but... he's not. He likes fitting in and following the law, when it allows him to do good.

Mirage is NE to N - while she doesn't have much of a problem suckering heroes to their demise, it's mostly because she's both in love with Syndrome, and has kind of bought into the social idea that heroes are a "problem" (probably sold by Syndrome himself - to the extent that he probably indicates that they are the true villains, etc., etc.) and, when faced with the idea of harmed children reacts slowly, but insistently that they not be harmed. She responds favorably to kindness shown her by Bob, and aids his whole family when the opportunity presents itself and she isn't in direct danger. While loyal to Syndrome, she ultimately betrays him after he betrays her trust by allowing - even goading - Bob into killing her.

Awesome thoughts you've inspired. Love it.

[Ravingdork]

A fun read.

[Jiggy]

You know, the more you summarize Bob's actions and attitudes, the more he seems CG rather than NG.

Awesome movie, BTW. Especially when you include Jack-Jack Attack on the DVD. ;)

[Ciaran Barnes]

I just saw this for the first time in the past week too. Bob had worked for the better of society because he's good. After the prologue but before the major events of the story take place, he only broke the law when people were in danger of getting hurt. When he lost his job and was doing "super" work for Mirage, it was outside of the laws of his country ( I think).

Yes, he broke some rules, but NG is allowed to do that too.

[Jiggy]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

I just saw this for the first time in the past week too. Bob had worked for the better of society because he's good. After the prologue but before the major events of the story take place, he only broke the law when people were in danger of getting hurt. When he lost his job and was doing "super" work for Mirage, it was outside of the laws of his country ( I think).

Yes, he broke some rules, but NG is allowed to do that too.

A neutral person will sometimes do that if that's what's necessary to accomplish good, but it seemed to be S.O.P. for Bob, which seems more chaotic.

Even during the prologue, he approaches his "hero work" in a pretty chaotic way: he solves a problem in whatever way first occurs to him. In fact, his willingness to just do whatever works regardless of collateral damage and let other people clean up afterwards (the very thing that triggers the downfall of the entire superhero age) seems pretty chaotic to me.

"Bah, the building was coming down anyway!"

[Ravingdork]

Lawful good people are permitted to break the rules too, it's just done with far less frequency, if at all.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Ravingdork wrote:

A fun read.

Thank you!

-- As to Bob being chaotic, I don't see it myself. He chafes under the Lawful regime, but it doesn't drive him nuts. He sticks it out at his hell-job until circumstances drive him over the edge. In fact, look how he deals with his job at the insurance company: he helps customers *figure out* the rules, but without *breaking* the rules. A chaotic character would have quit in disgust, or would have gone for full-on forging stuff and lying (or quietly ambushing the evil boss) instead of giving people advice on how to work within the system.

Further: he's faithful to Helen and a good, loyal husband and father -- as long as he's able to do good. It's not the rules that are driving him crazy! He doesn't love rules, but he can live with them. It's the not-doing-good part.

Finally, note that -- despite his "I work alone!" at the beginning -- Bob is an instinctive team player.* He partners with Frozone, then he's enthusiastically part of Syndrome's organization, then he's part of the Incredibles. He's not a loner, nor does he suddenly rush off on wild impulses. And he doesn't feel the need to be in charge -- he's happy to submit to Mirage's mysterious boss, or take good advice from Helen. His main motivation is not freedom or self-actualization, but just Doing Good.

Arguing alignment is a mug's game, and YMMV. But to me he really looks Neutral Good, right on the money.

Doug M.

*One of several clever things in this movie: everyone becomes the opposite of what they claim to be in the first ten minutes. Helen wants to save the world; she ends up being a housewife. Frozone is a player; he ends up married and settled down. Bob says he just wants some peace and quiet; he ends up getting it and it drives him nuts. And Buddy wants to be a hero.

[Jiggy]

Hm, some good points. Maybe he's NG after all.

[Bofus Beerswizzler]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

*One of several clever things in this movie: everyone becomes the opposite of what they claim to be in the first ten minutes. Helen wants to save the world; she ends up being a housewife. Frozone is a player; he ends up married and settled down. Bob says he just wants some peace and quiet; he ends up getting it and it drives him nuts. And Buddy wants to be a hero.

holy crap, I never noticed that! +1 for making one of my favorite movies ever, even better!

[Tacticslion]

"You don't always get what you want, but you always get what you choose." as the saying goes.

[Ravingdork]

Bofus Beerswizzler wrote:

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

*One of several clever things in this movie: everyone becomes the opposite of what they claim to be in the first ten minutes. Helen wants to save the world; she ends up being a housewife. Frozone is a player; he ends up married and settled down. Bob says he just wants some peace and quiet; he ends up getting it and it drives him nuts. And Buddy wants to be a hero.

holy crap, I never noticed that! +1 for making one of my favorite movies ever, even better!

Yeah, I missed that somehow too. Seems so obvious now. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Jiggy]

Ravingdork wrote:

Bofus Beerswizzler wrote:

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

*One of several clever things in this movie: everyone becomes the opposite of what they claim to be in the first ten minutes. Helen wants to save the world; she ends up being a housewife. Frozone is a player; he ends up married and settled down. Bob says he just wants some peace and quiet; he ends up getting it and it drives him nuts. And Buddy wants to be a hero.

holy crap, I never noticed that! +1 for making one of my favorite movies ever, even better!

Yeah, I missed that somehow too. Seems so obvious now. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'd noticed it with Bob and Helen, but I totally missed it with Lucius and Buddy.

[Tacticslion]

It was always my favorite "trick" with Lucius, really. The fact that he came off so "I'm always a bachelor, FOREVER!" and was so happy to have a normal life, but for his dedication to his friend.

I don't know that I ever considered it a trick or piece of subtlety with Buddy. I mean, that was kind of the...

MAJOR SPOILER:

... plot of the whole film.

... sooooooooooooooooooooo...? I dunno?

I mean, I guess I never put it in the same context as the others, because it was so blatant and heavy-handed throughout.

[Laurefindel]

Tacticslion wrote:

I mean, I guess I never put it in the same context as the others, because it was so blatant and heavy-handed throughout.

Yes, its an obvious trick, but a coherent trick with other characters nonetheless.

The whole movie is about transformation; its not a trick really, its (one of) the theme of the story.

Both Violet and Dash (and even Jack-Jack for that matter) change their view on things after their adventure.

At the beginning, Violet is shy in her outlook and relationship, but also in the way she handles change and her powers. It's about confidence of course, but she goes from "better be small, better be protected, better be overlooked" to "others will know I'm there and I will move forward to protect my family". That doesn't prevent her from being invisible, but her powers go from hiding to allowing her brother to run.

Dash goes from "I wish I could show the world how I'm the best" to "I'm good with fronting as close-second"

The movie shows Bob and Helen after they have been transformed. For Dash and Violet, it shows the transformation itself.

[Laurefindel]

as for alignment, I'd coin Dash as CG (doesn't think the rules apply to him. Uses powers against her sister in a "no powers!" zone/game/houserules, consciously pushes boundaries to see how far he can go before getting caught).

Where Dash is the Incredible who most likely to "go deep", violet is the one looking after the group. She isn't the kind of protector that becomes the target like Bob, she acts in shadows to strike at the most opportune moment, usually to thwart the plans of the bad guys in an unforeseen way. I hesitate between LG and NG, but I could see her developing into a LG character.

[Jiggy]

Laurefindel wrote:

as for alignment, I'd coin Dash as CG (doesn't think the rules apply to him. Uses powers against her sister in a "no powers!" zone/game/houserules, consciously pushes boundaries to see how far he can go before getting caught).

I'd call him CN, actually. Same rationale on the Chaos, but does he really act good? The only people he ever directly fights for are his own family ("DON'T TOUCH MY SISTER!"), but it doesn't take a good alignment to defend your family. Everything else he does is all about just flexing his awesomeness and stroking his own ego (the thumbtacks, the "I'm so awesome" laugh when he discovers he can run on water, the smug face in the foot race at the end). He's "The Dash", and The Dash likes. ;)

[Tacticslion]

"Trick" being the only word I could come up with, it was probably poorly chosen. Twenty-four hours sans sleep. Otherwise, I tend to agree, Lauefindel.

And Jiggy, much like a CG Bob, I started out with the impression that Dash was CN... but I don't think so upon reflection. While it's true that the only people he ever directly fights for are his family, he also is shocked - stunned - that anyone could ever actually kill someone else.

I would still peg him in the CG range - though with some CN leanings - but any 'neutralness' seems to come from a combination ignorance and thoughtlessness. I don't think he realizes that what he's doing is actually harmful (his pranks) - instead, he simply shows all the hallmarks of having a low wisdom.

That said, I wouldn't fight a CN assignment - I just think that his willingness to do the right thing, as seen much later in the film, and his youthful tendencies tend to get him a bit of a pass.

[Caineach]

Tacticslion wrote:

"Trick" being the only word I could come up with, it was probably poorly chosen. Twenty-four hours sans sleep. Otherwise, I tend to agree, Lauefindel.

And Jiggy, much like a CG Bob, I started out with the impression that Dash was CN... but I don't think so upon reflection. While it's true that the only people he ever directly fights for are his family, he also is shocked - stunned - that anyone could ever actually kill someone else.

I would still peg him in the CG range - though with some CN leanings - but any 'neutralness' seems to come from a combination ignorance and thoughtlessness. I don't think he realizes that what he's doing is actually harmful (his pranks) - instead, he simply shows all the hallmarks of having a low wisdom.

That said, I wouldn't fight a CN assignment - I just think that his willingness to do the right thing, as seen much later in the film, and his youthful tendencies tend to get him a bit of a pass.

Considering he is starting from the point of all children (evil malicious bastards), I think he shows definite growth towards CG.

[Tacticslion]

My point exactly. :)

[Coriat]

(Which would probably involve passing through CN on the way up from CE infancy, no?)

[Arturius Fischer]

Thank you, OP. This is quite a nice discussion, and I rather enjoy the points made as to the main characters. I never really thought about it before (aside from Mrs Incredible being an obvious LG), but the bit about Mr Incredible being NG makes a lot of sense, and I'll add him to the list of NG examples when people ask about the alignments (with your explanation as backup for when they go 'Why?'). He's a good example of what happens when his urges and desires to do Good are suppressed while retaining his alignment, rather than so many others whose alignment shifts as a result.

[Hama]

Give me your list of alignment examples, please. I want to compare it to mine :D