Secane |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, what happens if you gain immunity to an ongoing condition? And lose the immunity later? What happens then?
Basic Question: How does immunity interact with ongoing conditions? Does it cure or suppress these conditions?
Example, you gain Poison or Disease Immunity -
1) Do you get cured of the poison or disease?
2) Do you become a carrier of the poison or disease, aka immune yourself, but able to spread it to others?
And if you lose the immunity to Poison or Disease -
3) Do you regain the ongoing Poison or Disease condition? (aka, your not cured by the immunity.)
4) Gets cured by the immunity, but is now susceptible to being re-infected/poisoned.
Example 2, you are paralysed, then gain immunity to being paralyze -
5) Do you regain the ability to move? (As long as you remain immune to paralyze.)
And if you lose the immunity to being paralyze -
6) Are you completely cured of the paralysed condition? But can be paralyzed again?
7) You become paralyzed again (until the ongoing paralyze ends.)
Any clarification would be welcome.
wraithstrike |
You would be no longer afflicted by the poison or the disease. You can not be afflicted if you are immmune.
If you are paralyzed you would not be paralyzed.
The only time you would have to worry about something affecting you again like that is if you only had the affliction(bad thing) suppressed, but you never actually had immunity.
As an example I think neutralize poison gives temporary immunity but states that the poison is not removed from your system. In that case you might still be poison if the spell goes away before the poison ends. However most poisons have a duration in rounds so normally this will not be an issue. If you were actually immune then you can not be poisoned.
Secane |
You would be no longer afflicted by the poison or the disease. You can not be afflicted if you are immmune.
If you are paralyzed you would not be paralyzed.
The only time you would have to worry about something affecting you again like that is if you only had the affliction(bad thing) suppressed, but you never actually had immunity.
As an example I think neutralize poison gives temporary immunity but states that the poison is not removed from your system. In that case you might still be poison if the spell goes away before the poison ends. However most poisons have a duration in rounds so normally this will not be an issue. If you were actually immune then you can not be poisoned.
What about situations where the immunity is temporary?
Like what if you polymorph into an elemental when you are poisoned?
Does poison get neutralized as you are now an elemental and immune to poison? Or does it resumes poisoning you when you change back?
(Assuming the poison has a long duration.)
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:You would be no longer afflicted by the poison or the disease. You can not be afflicted if you are immmune.
If you are paralyzed you would not be paralyzed.
The only time you would have to worry about something affecting you again like that is if you only had the affliction(bad thing) suppressed, but you never actually had immunity.
As an example I think neutralize poison gives temporary immunity but states that the poison is not removed from your system. In that case you might still be poison if the spell goes away before the poison ends. However most poisons have a duration in rounds so normally this will not be an issue. If you were actually immune then you can not be poisoned.
What about situations where the immunity is temporary?
Like what if you polymorph into an elemental when you are poisoned?
Does poison get neutralized as you are now an elemental and immune to poison? Or does it resumes poisoning you when you change back?
(Assuming the poison has a long duration.)
I would say the poison should not be present since in PF you either poisoned or not. Now a real life answer would be that the poison is in you, but not affecting you, but with PF you are just not poisoned if you are immune to it.
PS: Make sure the polymorph spells actually grant poison immunity.
Secane |
Secane wrote:wraithstrike wrote:You would be no longer afflicted by the poison or the disease. You can not be afflicted if you are immmune.
If you are paralyzed you would not be paralyzed.
The only time you would have to worry about something affecting you again like that is if you only had the affliction(bad thing) suppressed, but you never actually had immunity.
As an example I think neutralize poison gives temporary immunity but states that the poison is not removed from your system. In that case you might still be poison if the spell goes away before the poison ends. However most poisons have a duration in rounds so normally this will not be an issue. If you were actually immune then you can not be poisoned.
What about situations where the immunity is temporary?
Like what if you polymorph into an elemental when you are poisoned?
Does poison get neutralized as you are now an elemental and immune to poison? Or does it resumes poisoning you when you change back?
(Assuming the poison has a long duration.)I would say the poison should not be present since in PF you either poisoned or not. Now a real life answer would be that the poison is in you, but not affecting you, but with PF you are just not poisoned if you are immune to it.
PS: Make sure the polymorph spells actually grant poison immunity.
Oh right. Forgot that polymorph is pretty limiting.
I think the life oracle's Energy Body (Su) would be a more appropriate example. Energy body actually gives you the elemental subtype.
So in this case, you gain the elemental subtype, which is immune to poison for a couple of rounds, only to lose it later. Now what happens?
Im on the same ideal as you, that you lose the poison effect completely. But I have noticed GMs ruling it as a temporary suppression only.
Hence me posting this question on the forum.
Senko |
Personally I think it would depend on whether something is part of you or external to you. For the purposes of clarity I'll use poison and disease as an example.
A disease is part of you something that's in your body as either something showing symptoms or something your a carrier of. Let's say you have mummy rot and you become immune to disease. You are now immune to that disease so you can't have it either showing symptoms or as a carrier so mummy rot goes away. You then lose your immunity to disease you still don't have mummy rot since it was destroyed when you were immune but you can contract it again.
A poison on the other hand is something external to your body and while your immune to its effects you can't destroy it like you can a disease. So when you become immune to poisons that arsenic you ate stops affecting you and your body gets better. When you lose the immunity however the arsenic still sitting in your stomach poisons you again because you didn't get rid of it.
Another way to look at it is what is the source of the condition is it something internal to yourself or something external to you. Anything that's internal e.g. Blindness due to your retinas being burnt out is cured by an immunity and if you lose the immunity the condition is gone but you can contract it again. If the source is external e.g. Someone shining a bright light in your eyes when you lose your immunity it promptly affects you again leaving you blind because someone just used am external source to do so.
Basically it's the difference between I have the black plague and the fleas on my rat familiar have the black plague.
Secane |
@Charender, its true those spell does say suppressed, likely as they do have an active duration.
Its the word immunity that confuses the matter. What does immunity means in the context of ongoing conditions?
If a condition is suppressed by immunity, is the character really immune?
For that matter does it means creatures/characters that are immune can become carriers of diseases/poisons? (If immunity does not actually cures the diseases/poison.)
LazarX |
You would be no longer afflicted by the poison or the disease. You can not be afflicted if you are immmune.
If you are paralyzed you would not be paralyzed.
The only time you would have to worry about something affecting you again like that is if you only had the affliction(bad thing) suppressed, but you never actually had immunity.
As an example I think neutralize poison gives temporary immunity but states that the poison is not removed from your system. In that case you might still be poison if the spell goes away before the poison ends. However most poisons have a duration in rounds so normally this will not be an issue. If you were actually immune then you can not be poisoned.
Neutralise Poison DOES remove poison from the body. It does not negate prior damage which is what you might be thinking of. It can also be used offensively against a creature like a spider, which robs it of it's poison attack for a time.
LazarX |
@LazarX, any insight into how immunity works? Does it neutralize on going conditions? Or merely suppresses them?
If you're immmune to something, you can't get it inflicted upon you. Not that many things give you a temporary immunity.
If you want a more specific answer, ask a more specific question.
Secane |
Secane wrote:@LazarX, any insight into how immunity works? Does it neutralize on going conditions? Or merely suppresses them?If you're immmune to something, you can't get it inflicted upon you. Not that many things give you a temporary immunity.
If you want a more specific answer, ask a more specific question.
It's in my original post.
What happens to any ongoing conditions that are already inflicting you, if you gain immunity to these ongoing conditions?And what happens after you lose that immunity? Does these conditions come back?
Sniggevert |
LazarX wrote:Secane wrote:@LazarX, any insight into how immunity works? Does it neutralize on going conditions? Or merely suppresses them?If you're immmune to something, you can't get it inflicted upon you. Not that many things give you a temporary immunity.
If you want a more specific answer, ask a more specific question.
It's in my original post.
What happens to any ongoing conditions that are already inflicting you, if you gain immunity to these ongoing conditions?
And what happens after you lose that immunity? Does these conditions come back?
Personally, I'd rule that getting immunity would remove the affliction and render it neutralized. Once you lose that immunity, you would no longer be affected, as the disease/poison/etc. was burned off/cured/destroyed/etc. by the immunization element.
I don't know as there is really a strict RAW answer to this though, as most immunities are not temporary, so it might be a GM call.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:Secane wrote:@LazarX, any insight into how immunity works? Does it neutralize on going conditions? Or merely suppresses them?If you're immmune to something, you can't get it inflicted upon you. Not that many things give you a temporary immunity.
If you want a more specific answer, ask a more specific question.
It's in my original post.
What happens to any ongoing conditions that are already inflicting you, if you gain immunity to these ongoing conditions?
And what happens after you lose that immunity? Does these conditions come back?
How would you be gaining immunity to said conditions? Most effects that can be applied either delay or remove them entirely.
Just a Guess |
Secane wrote:How would you be gaining immunity to said conditions? Most effects that can be applied either delay or remove them entirely.LazarX wrote:Secane wrote:@LazarX, any insight into how immunity works? Does it neutralize on going conditions? Or merely suppresses them?If you're immmune to something, you can't get it inflicted upon you. Not that many things give you a temporary immunity.
If you want a more specific answer, ask a more specific question.
It's in my original post.
What happens to any ongoing conditions that are already inflicting you, if you gain immunity to these ongoing conditions?
And what happens after you lose that immunity? Does these conditions come back?
For example through getting the elemental subtype by using the energy body life oracle revelation.
As per that revelation you get the elemental subtype and creatures with that subtype are immune to poisons.
Charender |
@Charender, its true those spell does say suppressed, likely as they do have an active duration.
Its the word immunity that confuses the matter. What does immunity means in the context of ongoing conditions?
If a condition is suppressed by immunity, is the character really immune?
For that matter does it means creatures/characters that are immune can become carriers of diseases/poisons? (If immunity does not actually cures the diseases/poison.)
Which is my point. Take protection from evil, the rules are really clear that it
A. Makes you immune to any new attempts to charm or dominate.B. Gives you a chance to suppress the effect if you are already affected.
The rules seem to be very clear about spelling out when suppression happens, and are silent otherwise, so if the rules don't specifically tell you the immunity suppresses ongoing effects, I would lean towards the immunity curing you.
Secane |
@LazarX,
As Just a Guess said, the Life Oracle's Energy Body (su) is the best example. It last for rounds equal to the Oracle's level and gives the Elemental subtyple.
Thanks for the input, Just a Guess, Charender.
Just have discussion with some fellow GMs and players. I'm going to go with it cure/removes/get rid of any condition in which you are now immune to.
Unless the condition is like a spell, environmental effect or a some external effect that causes... say... paralyze and you are immune to the paralyze effect, but are not immune to the spell, environmental effect, etc. Then the paralyze just don't affect you for as long as you are immune.
So if a PC get poison, diseased, etc and somehow gain immunity to say condition, that PC is cured.
Makes everyone's life simpler.
If there is an official clarification on this, that would be great, otherwise I guess its up to the GM.
ErichAD |
Immunity specifies that you aren't afflicted with secondary effects of things to which you are immune. I think both being contagious and suppressing the affliction would both count as secondary effects.
In some cases you can be immune to a spell that afflicts a condition, but not the condition itself. If you were the target of hold person and then gain immunity to hold person but not to paralysis, you would remain paralyzed until you made the save at the end of your turn at which point the spell would fail to effect you and end. If we reverse the scenario and you instead temporarily gain immunity to paralysis but not hold person, then you'd immediately lose the paralysis condition, but still be afflicted by hold person when the temporary immunity ended. If you were asked to make a save versus hold person during that temporary immunity, you would automatically save versus the effect and end the hold person.
1,2 & 3 you would be cured, not a carrier, but still afflicted by ability damage from the poison.
4 I don't understand this one.
5 immunity to the paralyze condition would immediately remove the paralyze condition
6&7 you are only immune to the paralyze condition, not whatever caused the condition, so it would depend on the effect.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
If you are affected by a condition, then become immune to it, it doesn't remove the condition, it just makes it not affect you. If you later lose the immunity to it, then the condition rears its ugly head again.
So if you have immunity to fatigue from somewhere, and you get fatigued (ignoring the effects but still acquiring the condition), and then get fatigued again, you become exhausted? So all those rage-cycling Barbarians who aren't applying the penalties from exhaustion (to which they are typically not immune) have been doing it wrong all this time?
Joesi |
Here's an older thread asking the same thing. No agreement was reached unsurprisingly, since there is nothing in the rules that explicitly describes what happens.
It would be good to get a FAQ on this.
What would you guys say if a Skinsend skin that was in contact with various diseases merges back with their skin? By RAW it just seems to be treated as a separate creature that appears on casting, and disappears on "merging"; why should any conditions that it had transfer over to the user?
Are any of you suggesting that being exposed while immune is different from being exposed then becoming immune? Because if something was immune, how would one decide if the poison/disease even came onto them in the first place? a saving throw?
If I was to give my best interpretation of the RAW (but not at all necessarily the RAI), it would be that immunity nullifies the effects of the condition while active and prevents additional effects (or renewal of the effects) while active. In addition, the duration of the immunity would still be subtracted from the total duration of the effect, but it would not be considered cured or removed unless it wore-off on its own during the immunity. In summary: It wouldn't cure the condition, but the condition cannot be gained or renewed while active either (so no losing immunity and suddenly gaining 5 diseases you were exposed to in the past while immune, unless all of those diseases were obtained before gaining immunity).
Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
Anti Paladins are immune to diseases, but can still be carriers of multiple diseases.
One, that's a special ability, and specific overrides general. Two, he isn't immune to disease, only to its effects other than contracting and carrying.
Plague Bringer (Ex): At 3rd level, the powers of darkness make an antipaladin a beacon of corruption and disease. An antipaladin does not take any damage or take any penalty from diseases. He can still contract diseases and spread them to others, but he is otherwise immune to their effects.
Ryze Kuja |
Ryze Kuja wrote:Anti Paladins are immune to diseases, but can still be carriers of multiple diseases.One, that's a special ability, and specific overrides general. Two, he isn't immune to disease, only to its effects other than contracting and carrying.
Antipaladin wrote:Plague Bringer (Ex): At 3rd level, the powers of darkness make an antipaladin a beacon of corruption and disease. An antipaladin does not take any damage or take any penalty from diseases. He can still contract diseases and spread them to others, but he is otherwise immune to their effects.
I should have been more specific, but yes that's what I meant.
Ryze Kuja |
Anywho, the way I've always understood immunity to work is like this:
If you have immunity to an effect, such as poison, disease, fatigue, etc., then any general effect that would cause any of these conditions automatically fails and you do not gain the condition, nor are you a carrier of that condition. For example, if a lvl3+ Paladin is hit with Mummy Rot, he automatically saves and is not a carrier of the disease. Similarly, if a Barbarian who is immune to fatigue is hit by a Ray of Exhaustion, he can still be Exhausted on a failed save, but on a successful save, he is not fatigued because he is immune, and he would not gain the fatigued condition later if his immunity to fatigue is removed at a later time.
If you get hit by an effect which causes poison, disease, fatigue, etc. and you are not immune to its effects, but then later you receive a spell or effect that causes you to be immune, then generally, you carry the effect in question but become immune to it's dmg/penalty while you remain immune, but it is also entirely situational based upon the two effects in question. Such as, if you become diseased, and then you put on a Periapt of Health, you would immediately become immune to the effects of the disease, but you would still be a carrier of that disease, and furthermore if you took off the Periapt of Health you would become subject to the damage/penalty of the disease until the duration expires; however, if you are subject to a Lay on Hands with Diseased Mercy or a Remove Disease spell, the disease is removed, you are no longer a carrier, but you are not immune to the disease. Likewise, if the Barbarian is not currently immune to fatigue, and then becomes hit by a Ray of Exhaustion and saves and becomes fatigued (for 1min/lvl), so lets say 10 minutes, then places a Scarlet and Green Cabochon (Ioun Stone) on himself in the first round, he would become sickened instead of being fatigued, then 5 minutes later he removes the Ioun Stone, he would become fatigued for the remaining 5 minutes.
Ryze Kuja |
So let's complicate the Barbarian example real quick. Let's say he has an Scarlett/Green Ioun Stone and also has Internal Fortitude.
Example 1:
The Barbarian is not raging and doesn't have the Ioun Stone equipped. He is fatigued from a Ray of Exhaustion spell. He equips the Ioun Stone, and is still fatigued but is now immune to sickened. He cannot rage until he is no longer fatigued.
Example 2:
The Barbarian is raging and has the Ioun Stone equipped. He is fatigued from a Ray of Exhaustion spell, but the fatigued condition instantly becomes a sickened condition, to which he is immune. He un-rages, and is neither sickened nor fatigued.
Example 3:
The Barbarian is raging and has the Ioun Stone equipped. He is fatigued from a Ray of Exhaustion spell, but the fatigued condition instantly becomes a sickened condition, to which he is immune. He removes the Ioun Stone, he is neither sickened nor fatigued. He un-rages, he is neither sickened nor fatigued.
Example 4:
The Barbarian is raging and has the Ioun Stone equipped. The enemy destroys the Ioun Stone with a Magic Missile, then casts Ray of Exhaustion. The Barbarian saves and is now fatigued for the duration of the spell. The Barbarian un-rages, and remains fatigued, and cannot enter a rage until he is no longer fatigued.
Ryze Kuja |
lvl12 Paladin vs. lvl12Anti-paladin example:
The paladin is immune to disease, fear and charm. The Anti-paladin can cause normally immune targets to be susceptible to fear effects while within range of his aura.
The anti-paladin moves within melee range of the paladin and uses Touch of Corruption to deliver a Frightened condition upon the paladin. The paladin gains the Frightened condition because he is within the anti-paladin's aura of cowardice. The Paladin leaves the 10ft area of the anti-paladin's aura, and immediately becomes immune to the Frightened condition (but still carries the effects until the duration is expired). The paladin then re-enters the anti-paladin's aura and regains the Frightened condition even though the anti-paladin did not have to hit the paladin with a second Touch of Corruption ability. Essentially, the paladin is immune to the Frightened condition whenever he is further than 10ft from the anti-paladin, but while the paladin is within range, he is frightened. Furthermore, while the paladin is within range of the anti-paladin's aura, he is subjected to a -4 to save vs. fear effects, and a -2 to all saves (from Aura of Despair), but these two effects would not stack.
Ryze Kuja |
So to answer the OP questions:
So, what happens if you gain immunity to an ongoing condition? And lose the immunity later? What happens then?
If you have an ongoing condition, such as a disease, and then gain immunity to it (such as with a Periapt of Health), it does not cure the condition, but rather suppresses it. You don't take any dmg/penalty associated with the disease. If you remove the Periapt of Health while the disease duration is still active, you would be subject to the dmg/penalty associated with the disease until the disease duration expires. However, if you wait for the disease duration to expire, and then take off the Periapt of Health, you would not be subject to the disease (because it's expired).
Basic Question: How does immunity interact with ongoing conditions? Does it cure or suppress these conditions?
It suppresses the condition.
Example, you gain Poison or Disease Immunity -
1) Do you get cured of the poison or disease?
2) Do you become a carrier of the poison or disease, aka immune yourself, but able to spread it to others?And if you lose the immunity to Poison or Disease -
3) Do you regain the ongoing Poison or Disease condition? (aka, your not cured by the immunity.)
4) Gets cured by the immunity, but is now susceptible to being re-infected/poisoned.
1. No you are not cured of the poison/disease.
2. Yes you do become a carrier and you can spread it to others (depending on the poison/disease type, such as if you're carrying a disease, you can be immune to it but still be contagious to others. "Ingested" and "injury" poisons are generally not contagious, but if you had your hands completely submerged in a "contact" poison like a Black Lotus Extract, even though you're immune to the poison, everything you touch would become infected with Black Lotus Poison. I suppose as a rare example you could infect others with an "inhaled" poison if you're completely doused in the dust of such a poison, then you may still affect others if they get close enough to you to breathe the poison.)3. Yes you regain the ongoing poison or disease condition, until the duration expires.
4. It does not get cured by the immunity, but rather suppresses it, and the effects would affect you once again.
Example 2, you are paralysed, then gain immunity to being paralyze -
5) Do you regain the ability to move? (As long as you remain immune to paralyze.)And if you lose the immunity to being paralyze -
6) Are you completely cured of the paralysed condition? But can be paralyzed again?
7) You become paralyzed again (until the ongoing paralyze ends.)
5,6 & 7. Yes, you would be able to move as you are now immune to the effects of paralysis. However, if you took off the item that granted you immunity to paralysis before the duration of the original paralysis effect expires, you would become paralyzed until it expired.
Ryze Kuja |
Likewise, if the Barbarian is not currently immune to fatigue, and then becomes hit by a Ray of Exhaustion and saves and becomes fatigued (for 1min/lvl), so lets say 10 minutes, then places a Scarlet and Green Cabochon (Ioun Stone) on himself in the first round, he would become sickened instead of being fatigued, then 5 minutes later he removes the Ioun Stone, he would become fatigued for the remaining 5 minutes.
Btw, this is completely wrong. Edit:
"Likewise, if a raging Barbarian is not currently immune to fatigue, and then becomes hit by a Ray of Exhaustion and saves and becomes fatigued (for 1min/lvl), so lets say 10 minutes, then places a Scarlet and Green Cabochon (Ioun Stone) on himself in the first round, he would not become sickened instead of being fatigued, then 5 minutes later he removes the Ioun Stone, he would remain fatigued for the remaining 5 minutes."
Ryze Kuja |
So, what happens if you gain immunity to an ongoing condition? And lose the immunity later? What happens then?
One more clarification: if you get afflicted with a disease and you get damaged or penalized by it before you place a Periapt of Health on yourself, the damage/penalty is not cured, but you would be immune to any further dmg/penalty while the item is worn.
Azothath |
If a creature is immune to acquiring a condition then at the time of exposure and calling for a save the creature does not gain the condition. Otherwise(not immune) it goes through the usual process. Gaining a condition is usually time dependent within a round.
Poisons are unitized in the game and thus used on exposing a creature to the poison. Poison duration does not depend on immunity, nor is the poison saved for a later use if the target is immune to the toxin. If a creature becomes immune after exposure then the next call for a save is considered successful though a roll is not required and the poison effects no longer accrue (new poison damage stops). The poison ends based on the poison description. One could say the ongoing effects of the poison are suppressed but the current damage is not healed by gaining immunity.
I'd agree with the above on diseases. If a time period goes by while immune to the disease then the disease save is considered successful and new damage or effects stop and the disease may expire based on the disease description.
Usually gaining or losing an immunity to something is static and doesn't change. Spells are dynamic and generally with a limited duration. Spell descriptions should inform the GM of the details, limits, and effects of the spell.
Absorb Toxicity is a good example.