Two weapon fighting isn't really that much more or less useful in relation to good or average BAB. In fact you could argue that TWF is less useful the higher your BAB, because as you have more iterative attacks, the value of an additional attack also decreases. To over-simplify, if you have one attack, then an extra attack would be like double damage. If you already have 4 attacks, then one extra attack would only be like 25% more daamge.
Was going to do some loose math on two weapon fighting, but got lazy. At any rate, two weapon fighting is not bad for a ninja at 5th level. There may be better choices, but using TWF is hardly gimping yourself.
1st Level:
75% chance to hit for 1d6+1d6 = 5.25 average damage
2(65% chance to hit for 1d6+1d6) = 9.1 average damage
5th Level:
75% chance to hit for 1d6+3d6 = 10.5 average damage
2(65% chance to hit for 1d6+3d6) = 18.2 average damage
I'm all in for that, but in reality it's impossible.
Not true, I mentioned 3 ways a ninja can kill and bypass hit points:
1. Poison use - granted this is only useful at lower levels.
2. Assassinate - granted you don't get this until 10th level, but with a successful sneak attack your opponent is dead with one shot.
3. Try to get your opponent in a helpless position and cut their throat, as in coup de grace.
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A Mouser dip could be a good idea. My understanding is even though you're only one size smaller than a medium creature, you could still move into its square. You would be considered flanking as long as one other ally is adjacent to the creature. The downside is that it requires the creature to attack you first.
Swashbuckler is a good dip to consider for any finesse build. With a 1 level dip, you would get access to all the 1st level deeds. Mouser swaps Parry/Riposte for its ability.
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I'm all in for that, but in reality it's impossible.Not true, I mentioned 3 ways a ninja can kill and bypass hit points:
1. Poison use - granted this is only useful at lower levels.
2. Assassinate - granted you don't get this until 10th level, but with a successful sneak attack your opponent is dead with one shot.
3. Try to get your opponent in a helpless position and cut their throat, as in coup de grace.
1: Even at low levels, poison doesn't kill. It causes ability damage, that is no more an instant death than hit point damage. Not to mention how awful most poisons are.
2: Assassinate is pretty bad too. It requires you to observe your target undetected for a full round before you make your attack, and then the DC is relatively low.
3: Ninja can't do that any better than anyone else, and are considerably worse at it than most.
The one thing that ninjas are very good at is becoming invisible, and then using that invisibility to do hit point damage via sneak attack.
The one thing that ninjas are very good at is becoming invisible, and then using that invisibility to do hit point damage via sneak attack.
Which is how you spend an entire round observing your opponent prior to assassinate. I never clamied that the DCs were good or that poison use was an efficient way to kill, rather that it was an ability to bypass damage, which most other classes have no way to bypass.
A Mouser dip could be a good idea. My understanding is even though you're only one size smaller than a medium creature, you could still move into its square. You would be considered flanking as long as one other ally is adjacent to the creature. The downside is that it requires the creature to attack you first.
Swashbuckler is a good dip to consider for any finesse build. With a 1 level dip, you would get access to all the 1st level deeds. Mouser swaps Parry/Riposte for its ability.
Oh I see, I'm basically getting a free AoO after I've spent a Panache Point.
It seems rather interesting because of my size.
- I'm gonna take at least 1 level in SB and get all those awesome benefits.
- I'm gonna retrain to Smoke Bomb feats
- I might retrain Escape Artist, with my UMD I can get better options
- I'll use poison to hinder my enemies on my first attack during surprise round
- I'll get Improved Initiative, that will leave me at +10
If you go swashbuckler and slashing grace you HAVE to change from wakizashi to katana, you CAN'T select wakizashi as your slashing grace weapon.
In addition if you do go for the swashbuckler deed you will want to retrain your weapon finesse feat for something else (probably the weapon focus you will need for taking slashing grace).
IMO, the true goal of a ninja should be to kill your opponent, and bypass causing damage altogether if you can using the ninja's abilities to work around damage causing through poison use and assassinate. It's like killing with a coup de grace. Understandably, this isn't an easy goal especially in Pathfinder, but when somebody is looking for ways to cause more damage for their ninja, they are not thinking correctly. Ninja like rogues tend to squishy and die quickly if spending too much time in combat, which is why so many ninja abilities are about working around your opponents hit points. You want to ambush your opponent, attacking them with special abilities to bypass their hit points and kill them, then disappear - this is what a ninja should strive to do.I'm all in for that, but in reality it's impossible. I cannot execute enemies, I cannot hinder them in such ways that they become useless nor I can stop them from attacking.
All I can do is do consistent damage?
Poison?
Hag Spittle: causes blindnessFire Jackal Saliva causes nausea and damage
Drow poison causes uinconscious
Poison?
Hag Spittle: causes blindness
Fire Jackal Saliva causes nausea and damage
Drow poison causes uinconscious
Hag Spittle is 1500GP!
Fire Jackal Saliva has a DC12 Fort though I agree it could be really useful on Casters, but that's about it.
The problem with poison is that it's expensive to make, has low Saves and you have it once or twice, and then it's gone.
For those prices I rather take a Wand and spam magic missiles from a safe distance.
It all depends on what AC the thing your are fighting is. Though, honestly, with the -2, i usually just roll the dice and go for it.
Assume something hard to hit then:
1st Level:25% chance to hit for 1d6+1d6 = 1.75 average damage
2(15% chance to hit for 1d6+1d6) = 2.1 average damage
Before iterative attacks, you should always use two weapon fighting if you have a full attack and the feat. Once you hit iterative attacks, things become more questionable. TWF should still hold up if you buy the improved and greater versions, but that's quite a feat tax.
I'm not saying that TWF is awesome. It takes too many high level feats and requires full attacking to kick in. But it's still just not as awful as people make it out to be.
I need to check this very carefully:Parry-Risposte: I have 16 CHA, so I could virtually use this 3 times, but my size is Small, but you're saying it's still a D20 to avoid an attack for free (almost). Wouldn't be Dodging Panace better for a Small Character?
Dodging Panache is situationally useful. You can't get out of the way of the attack that triggers the dodge, so you suck that one up. The only time it comes in handy is if the bad guy has pounce, or if you 5' step after your full attack.
Swash Finesse would get me W Finesse, but I'd still be using Wakizashi, weapon damage is not that important for me.
The problem with using the Wakizashi is that in order to get DEX to damage you'll need to buy agile. That means a +2 Weapon for 8k gold. If you want to dual wield, you're going to suck until you can afford 16k gold in weapons. If you switch to Sawtooth Saber (used by the Mantis Cult Assassins... Assassins - Ninja...?), you can take Slashing Grace which will allow you to add DEX to damage, and Sawtooth Sabers are finessable, and you can dual wield them as if your off hand was a light weapon.
Do I get access to ALL Deeds?
All first level Deeds and any ones that are feats you meet prereqs for.
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1 - Make sure to use Vanishing Trick at the END of your turn - not the beginning. You still get the invibible attack at the beginning of your next turn, but it allows you to be invisible during your opponents' turns. Especially great if you 5 ft step after vanishing.
2 - I wouldn't bother with agile on your off-hand. You'd probably be better off with an extra +1 straight magic than 1/2 dex to damage.
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2 - I wouldn't bother with agile on your off-hand. You'd probably be better off with an extra +1 straight magic than 1/2 dex to damage.
Why would you have 1/2 dex to damage? Just as an agile spiked chain doesn't get 1.5 Dex to damage for being two handed, an agile dagger doesn't get .5 dex for being off-hand.
The off hand rules apply to STR only.
2 - I wouldn't bother with agile on your off-hand. You'd probably be better off with an extra +1 straight magic than 1/2 dex to damage.Why would you have 1/2 dex to damage? Just as an agile spiked chain doesn't get 1.5 Dex to damage for being two handed, an agile dagger doesn't get .5 dex for being off-hand.
The off hand rules apply to STR only.
That is counter-intuitive, though.
I need to check this very carefully:Parry-Risposte: I have 16 CHA, so I could virtually use this 3 times, but my size is Small, but you're saying it's still a D20 to avoid an attack for free (almost). Wouldn't be Dodging Panace better for a Small Character?
Dodging Panache is situationally useful. You can't get out of the way of the attack that triggers the dodge, so you suck that one up. The only time it comes in handy is if the bad guy has pounce, or if you 5' step after your full attack.
Swash Finesse would get me W Finesse, but I'd still be using Wakizashi, weapon damage is not that important for me.The problem with using the Wakizashi is that in order to get DEX to damage you'll need to buy agile. That means a +2 Weapon for 8k gold. If you want to dual wield, you're going to suck until you can afford 16k gold in weapons. If you switch to Sawtooth Saber (used by the Mantis Cult Assassins... Assassins - Ninja...?), you can take Slashing Grace which will allow you to add DEX to damage, and Sawtooth Sabers are finessable, and you can dual wield them as if your off hand was a light weapon.
Do I get access to ALL Deeds?All first level Deeds and any ones that are feats you meet prereqs for.
Why should I go for 2 Weapons and lose the Buckler? I mean, I know I'm supposed to do damage, but right now at level 5 I'm hitting with a +9.
3 from BAB, 4 from DEX, 1 from MW, 1 from Size. If I go 2WF I'd be at +7/+7, yes, but I'll be losing the buckler.
Do you think eventually at higher level it's worth? I know I can always hit with 1 weapon, but I'm unsure how many feats I'd need to get DEX to damage. Could you please help me with that?
I'm still undecided whether I should go or not for 1 level dip in Swash, what would I gain that I cannot gain with a feat.
I'll have to recheck those feats that give DEX to damage, and isn't a feat worth 16k gold to make Agile both weapons?
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2 - I wouldn't bother with agile on your off-hand. You'd probably be better off with an extra +1 straight magic than 1/2 dex to damage.Why would you have 1/2 dex to damage? Just as an agile spiked chain doesn't get 1.5 Dex to damage for being two handed, an agile dagger doesn't get .5 dex for being off-hand.
The off hand rules apply to STR only.
It's not my interpretation - it's in the description for Agile.
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
I will say - whether Slashing Grace gives full dex to damage for off-hand is up to interpretation.
2 - I wouldn't bother with agile on your off-hand. You'd probably be better off with an extra +1 straight magic than 1/2 dex to damage.Why would you have 1/2 dex to damage? Just as an agile spiked chain doesn't get 1.5 Dex to damage for being two handed, an agile dagger doesn't get .5 dex for being off-hand.
The off hand rules apply to STR only.
It's not my interpretation - it's in the description for Agile.
I will say - whether Slashing Grace gives full dex to damage for off-hand is up to interpretation.
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
I'd say considering that, getting DEX to damage for money doesn't seem that great anymore, but 1 level (at least) dip in Swash is great, because you get 1 BAB, better reflex saves, Weapon Finesse for free and Id be able to use that Weapon Finesse feat for Slashing Grace, pumping my damage in case I don't get SA.
I know it doesn't seems much, but right now I'm doing 1d4-1 damage, it's essentially nothing, doing at least 1d4+4 (eventually damage will go up due to DEX increase) will help me a lot.
I'm also considering getting 2WF, it doesn't seem great option, but I already have Outflank, I'm trying to maximize my Attack Bonus, so I might be able to put decent damage even while not SAing.
Honestly, wasting 8k just to get 1/2 DEX to damage is crap, plus I depend on my weapons, getting a feat seems much better and I don't see myself losing much if I dip one level in Swash.
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I don't see myself losing much if I dip one level in Swash.
In addition to the dip - you'll have to spend a feat to become proficient with sawtoothed sabres. (And that's assuming that your GM lets you switch out weapon finesse for weapon focus in said sabres.) This is because sawtoothed sabres are the only way to get slashing grace while TWF without additional negatives to hit.
Still probably worth it. (Though as I said before - whether you get full dex to damage with the slashing grace on the off-hand is up to interpretation. The general consensus is a big 'no', and you'd need to burn an extra feat to get full dex to damage.)
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It's not my interpretation - it's in the description for Agile.I will say - whether Slashing Grace gives full dex to damage for off-hand is up to interpretation.
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Ah, that will do it. It's been a long time since I actually looked at agile, and I had forgotten that it was explicitly reduced on off-hand.
I don't see myself losing much if I dip one level in Swash.In addition to the dip - you'll have to spend a feat to become proficient with sawtoothed sabres. (And that's assuming that your GM lets you switch out weapon finesse for weapon focus in said sabres.) This is because sawtoothed sabres are the only way to get slashing grace while TWF without additional negatives to hit.
Still probably worth it. (Though as I said before - whether you get full dex to damage with the slashing grace on the off-hand is up to interpretation. The general consensus is a big 'no', and you'd need to burn an extra feat to get full dex to damage.)
Why can't I use Slashing Grace with a Scimitar? It's slashing, making it piercing for Swash Finesse and I could use 2, right?
I believe you can also use Effortless Lace to do many things previously only possible with Sawtooth Sabres. It's from the Giant Hunter's Handbook.
Edit: But at that point, you are spending gold to get use of a feat that could be replaced by spending about the same amount of gold, If I recall.
Why should I go for 2 Weapons and lose the Buckler? I mean, I know I'm supposed to do damage, but right now at level 5 I'm hitting with a +9.3 from BAB, 4 from DEX, 1 from MW, 1 from Size. If I go 2WF I'd be at +7/+7, yes, but I'll be losing the buckler.
Do you think eventually at higher level it's worth? I know I can always hit with 1 weapon, but I'm unsure how many feats I'd need to get DEX to damage. Could you please help me with that?
I'm still undecided whether I should go or not for 1 level dip in Swash, what would I gain that I cannot gain with a feat.
I'll have to recheck those feats that give DEX to damage, and isn't a feat worth 16k gold to make Agile both weapons?
I would seriously consider a 4 level dip in Swashbuckler. That alone will get you +4 to precision damage, get an agile weapon and your at a respectable +8, and your BAB is high enough where you can take Piranha Strike.
Right now with a Waka...Little Katana, the only way to get DEX to damage is Agile. No feats will do it, even with a Swashbuckler dip. The easiest way for you to do it with feats is switch to the Rapier, re-train your WF: Little Katana to WF: Rapier and take the Fencing Grace feat. You could re-train your smoke bomb to the combat feat talent and get that now.
If you want to switch weapons but not use the Rapier, you would need a level of Swashbuckler and a one handed slashing weapon that is finessable. Off the top of my head: Aldori Dueling Sword, Saw-tooth Saber, and Whip are the only ones that apply. Two of them need Exotic Weapon Prof. to work, and the third needs Whip Mastery to make it work.
I rarely say this about classes, but Rogues/Ninjas are horrible. They just don't have enough to make them viable. I mean I'm okay with a class that is subpar in combat, as long as they are super at something else. Rogues give up combat and get very little in return.
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Right now with a Waka...Little Katana, the only way to get DEX to damage is Agile. No feats will do it, even with a Swashbuckler dip.
Four levels in Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will give dex to damage with all swashbucklers finesse weapons, including the light ones. It alters swashbucklers finesse to not allow any weapon in the off-hand though, so you cannot twf with it. (except for unarmed strikes with snake style/boar style/hamatualatsu)
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Why can't I use Slashing Grace with a Scimitar? It's slashing, making it piercing for Swash Finesse and I could use 2, right?I don't see myself losing much if I dip one level in Swash.In addition to the dip - you'll have to spend a feat to become proficient with sawtoothed sabres. (And that's assuming that your GM lets you switch out weapon finesse for weapon focus in said sabres.) This is because sawtoothed sabres are the only way to get slashing grace while TWF without additional negatives to hit.
Still probably worth it. (Though as I said before - whether you get full dex to damage with the slashing grace on the off-hand is up to interpretation. The general consensus is a big 'no', and you'd need to burn an extra feat to get full dex to damage.)
Because scimitars are one-handed weapons - so you'd take additional TWF penalties. Sawtoothed sabres specifically can be used to TWF with no additional penalty despite being one-handed.
Four levels in Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will give dex to damage with all swashbucklers finesse weapons, including the light ones. It alters swashbucklers finesse to not allow any weapon in the off-hand though, so you cannot twf with it. (except for unarmed strikes with snake style/boar style/hamatualatsu)
Right now with a Waka...Little Katana, the only way to get DEX to damage is Agile. No feats will do it, even with a Swashbuckler dip.
Going with the rapier, is basically the same as Wakizashi except for the Deadly feature, which is extremely random. My DM might even let me use the Wakizashi for fluff purposes anyway.
I wouldn't be switching much honestly, just the Weapon Focus, and a feat that I've never used (Smoke Bomb)
I might even go for the 4 lvls dip in Swash, it gives me a lot right now.
Four levels in Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will give dex to damage with all swashbucklers finesse weapons, including the light ones. It alters swashbucklers finesse to not allow any weapon in the off-hand though, so you cannot twf with it. (except for unarmed strikes with snake style/boar style/hamatualatsu)
No it allows DEX to damage with a scimitar
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Now the part I have bolded is where I think you're getting confused, so let's look at the Dervish's swashbuckler finesse
Dervish Finesse (Ex)
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
That's all a dervish gets, Scimitar.
Something else I just remembered is that you can use your CHA to qualify for Combat Expertise feat lines. I wouldn't necessarily recommend using Combat Expertise itself, but Gang-Up, Improved Dirty Trick, aren't bad to have. Yeah Swashbuckler dip is nice.
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Four levels in Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler will give dex to damage with all swashbucklers finesse weapons, including the light ones. It alters swashbucklers finesse to not allow any weapon in the off-hand though, so you cannot twf with it. (except for unarmed strikes with snake style/boar style/hamatualatsu)No it allows DEX to damage with a scimitar
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.Now the part I have bolded is where I think you're getting confused, so let's look at the Dervish's swashbuckler finesse
That's all a dervish gets, Scimitar.Dervish Finesse (Ex)
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
No, it's not. Read the entire paragraph.
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
The ability limits you to nothing in your off hand and allows a scimitar to be used as a one-handed piercing weapon. It does nothing to limit the list of weapons available to swashbuckler's finesse.
So you're saying because they included the phrase swashbuckler's finesse it includes all of that ability? You may get a GM to agree with you, but it's pretty obvious that isn't the intention, and since this is PFS, I'd hate to base a character around it.
EDIT: Actually I don't know if this is PFS, I keep getting my threads confused. If it is, I wouldn't try to get away with it, if it isn't, maybe you can convince your GM.
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The word can indicates it's optional. The fact that it then references swashbucklers finesse reinforces the fact that other swashbuckler weapons are still finessable. Finally, the level 4 ability reads:
Dervish Dance (Ex)
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
This would have read a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using a scimitar if it was intended to be scimitar only.
The word can indicates it's optional. The fact that it then references swashbucklers finesse reinforces the fact that other swashbuckler weapons are still finessable. Finally, the level 4 ability reads:
This would have read a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using a scimitar if it was intended to be scimitar only.Dervish Dance (Ex)
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
"Can" also means ability to. If I say "You can lift a mountain" I'm not saying lifting it is optional, I'm saying you have the ability to do it.
As to "it would say scimitar", things can get wonky if you get specific. There are hundreds of rules that are silly because Paizo got specific, there are now abilities and feats that don't apply to certain classes because they weren't around when the feat or ability was created.
What I said above and the fact that it specifically calls out Sarenre and Dervish Dance feat, leads me to believe that it wasn't intended for anything other than the scimitar. I could be wrong, but in any case, I would expect table variation in PFS.
Call me crazy, but the way it is worded, there is a strong RAW case for allowing Dervish Dance (Swashbuckler ability) to apply to two-weapon fighting piercing weapons.
Dervish Finesse states: She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off to gain this benefit.
To me, this benefit refers to treating the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon. It does not limit Swashbuckler Finesse further. Dervish Dance applies to all Swashbuckler Finesse weapons, like two-weapon fighting daggers or a scimitar with an ipen off-hand.
Thoughts? Maybe this should be moved to a new thread.
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@OP - one way to get a ninja's damage up is to go the Shatter Defenses/Enforcer combo - though it doesn't come online for a ninja until at least level 8. (Shatter Defenses requires a BAB of +6.)
Take the Blade of Mercy trait / Enforcer feat to shake everyone you do nonlethal damage to - and once they're shaken, hit them again and your Shatter Defenses feat kicks in and they're flatfooted to you for every attack. It's rather feat intensive though. (The whole combo costs 4 feats and a trait - though all of the feats are handy in their own right. No real feat taxes.)
@OP - one way to get a ninja's damage up is to go the Shatter Defenses/Enforcer combo - though it doesn't come online for a ninja until at least level 8. (Shatter Defenses requires a BAB of +6.)
Take the Blade of Mercy trait / Enforcer feat to shake everyone you do nonlethal damage to - and once they're shaken, hit them again and your Shatter Defenses feat kicks in and they're flatfooted to you for every attack. It's rather feat intensive though. (The whole combo costs 4 feats and a trait - though all of the feats are handy in their own right. No real feat taxes.)
I thought about that, but it seems you can Shaken everything non stop once your build is done, plus there's always the confusion whether you can put fear into things that are not humanoids and besides I'm small, so I already have a penalty of -4 on the rolls because of size.