He was not going to apply any adjudication to simulacra beyond things that are explicitly dependent on HD. Thus the question
It is explicitly dependent. What they don't explain is how exactly one should adjust monsters.
That spell is one of the few things that explicitaly depends on the 2e idea of "ask your GM about it".
Ok, I think I have a first pass at feats/abilities.
Ive made some changes to the previous set of base abilities, because some things were redundant. (Commune with Power = Miracle on days I don't need it, Longevity = Everlasting item)
Tier 1 Legendary Item (Undetectable, Foe Biting, Intelligent), Mythic Paragon
Tier 2 Path dabbling(Limitless range)
Tier 3 Vanishing Move, M. Blind Fight
Tier 4 Divine Source (Protection Domain, Luck Domain)
Tier 5 Sleepless , Mythic Spellcasting
Tier 6 Blind Sense
Tier 7 Divine Source (Magic, Heroism Sub, Construct Sub) Vital Strike
Tier 8 Legendary Item - (spellcasting, teleport, spellcasting)
Tier 9 Extra Feat(Spellbreaker), Eagle Eyes
Tier 10 Legendary Item (Unstoppable Strike, Everlasting, spellcasting spellcasting)
I have 4 sets of spellcasting from legendary item. for these, I select off of Summoner list:
5 = Simulacrum
5 = Simulacrum
5 = greater teleport
5 = haste + 3 x enlarge person
these are all SLAs granted to me. As far as I know about items, this means I can use these with feats (enlarge person) <- will change least important divine source if necessary to get this for feats
My item, which acts on my turn, can cast teleport if things look shifty and we need a quick get away.
Vanishing move gives me a source of greater invisibility for whenever I want to make an attack action (might be dispelled) a Bead of Karma +ioun stone makes my CL 29. (effective tier 12 x 2 + 4 + 1)
Various divine sources give Mind Blank, Miracle/Mages Disjunction, Geas, Limited Wish as SLA once per day. (maybe other things, these are the things I remember picking them for, though)
Sleepless means I never need to sleep, and can thus remain invisible forever (still using a ring, though I can use Vanishing move forever as swift if I get desperate)
Don't know what Ill take for Mythic Spellcasting yet. Id take Enlarge Person and Limited Wish for sure.
Blind Sense + Mythic Blind Fight give me a means of eventually finding you if you manage to make yourself invisible/mind blanked forever.
Mythic Spellbreaker allows me to shut down spellcasting(swift and standard) as long as my damage+10+spell level is beyond your ability to overcome with concentration. -- have to be in range. not used for current tactic
Vital Strike -- is seriously messed up as written. Im abusing it.
Eagle Eyes allows me to see you in the arena, wherever you teleport to, as long as line of sight persists. Even 3.14 lightyears away.
Unstoppable Strike + invisible/Trickster = always attacking your flatfooted touch AC.
Feats 11 combat, 11 regular (I'm going with N Human)
Arcane Strike
Blind Fight
Deadly Aim
Weapon Spec
Greater Weapon Spec
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Eagle Eyes
Far Shot
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Greater Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still
Disruptive
Spellbreaker
Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magical Arms and Armor
Some of these things speak for themselves.
My starting plan is to create a simulacrum with disintegrate as an SLA, have it tear down the wall of stone, then I will either target you inside the dome from outside, or see where you go with Eagle Eyes, greater teleport within range, then use Amazing Initiative to pull of a Vital Strike.
Having the wall of stone inside the various anti-magics may change this (but think of all the space you'd have left to maneuver! - sarcasm), as will any advice/criticisms/things I overlooked.
---
The questions I had were relevant, though some did not see use in this layout. They inform my choices for back up maneuvers with the same general layout of abilities/feats
Even if it does I just create a sim of genie with many class levels. The end result will still have more HD then the base genie.
Andreww ruled no sims of unique creatures and that sims can not make more sims. That is not raw but is reasonable.
Also making a wish with genie takes standard action.
Which is why his contest was a sham and is better off having not been run.
I can vital strike twice in one round, via amazing initiative. I don't know my damage yet, but whatever my damage bonus is will be multiplied by at least 12. I think Ill get over 300 damage to break Emergency force sphere in one shot, and you're then out of Immediate actions that round.
-Edit: Just with what is shown, my damage bonus is at least
+4 (weapon training) + 4 (weapon spec+grweapon spec) + 5 (arcane strike - would need a swift action, not sure if this or eagle eye is better for opener) + 12 (deadly aim) = 25
I need a +5 weapon to overcome 360. I think my weapon is
+5 Phase Locking Cyclonic Distance Adaptive Composite Longbow 201450 GP.
Id need at least 20 STR to not need Arcane Strike in my opening move.
Edit the second: I forgot. As long as I think I'm firing at the wizard, I am constantly using Unstoppable Strike and Foe Biting. So that's some expenditure, but the multiplier is at least 24. (Edit the third, actually, foe-biting may be applied after damage is guaranteed. So its either 12 or 24, depending. Or more if I limited wish gravity bow in addition to the Mythic Enlarge Person)
I thought the contest was going to be in an enclosed arena, and leaving would count as forfeiting, so what do you mean by time stop and a plane, Mathius?
Also regarding Time Stop, how many are you counting on being able to use in the fight? Greater Quicken Rod is only usable 3 times per day and Staff of the Master is illegal because it's 3.5, not PF. Made by Paizo and says Pathfinder on the cover, yes, but it predates the CRB and uses 3.5 rules. Of course, a different GM might use different ground rules for such a contest, so this would be a question for whoever it is that might potentially run one in the future (seems unlikely that anyone would volunteer after how these threads have been going).
EDIT: Nevermind, I see that the Staff of the Master was updated from 3.5 and put in Ultimate Equipment, so it is fully PF-legal.
@ Cuuniyevo. Unless it changed later on, the ceiling was infinitely high. That's the direction of teleporting.
The demiplanes are allowable so long as you spend the greater part of real time at the arena.
I don't think Time Stop + Timeless Plane is infinite though. Time stop gives you 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time), and every personal effect Ive ever seen is defined in relation to the caster. Thus, if it appears as though 1d4+1 rounds pass relative to the caster, the spell ends.
@ Cuuniyevo. Unless it changed later on, the ceiling was infinitely high. That's the direction of teleporting.
The demiplanes are allowable so long as you spend the greater part of real time at the arena.
I don't think Time Stop + Timeless Plane is infinite though. Time stop gives you 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time), and every personal effect Ive ever seen is defined in relation to the caster. Thus, if it appears as though 1d4+1 rounds pass relative to the caster, the spell ends.
timeless planes are weird...
effects with durations never end...
Okay, let me rephrase this. Time Stop is not instantaneous, so it becomes permanent. It's effect, in the description, gives you 1d4+1 round of apparent time. You have a permanent effect that gives you, from the moment of casting, 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.
Tell me how the caster can define 'apparent time' that defies this. Not actual time, apparent time.
@ Cuuniyevo. Unless it changed later on, the ceiling was infinitely high.
The contest was originally set wth a 10' ceiling - when it was first proposed. It was later changed to infinitely high when the official rules were posted. That's likey where his confusion is coming from.
Ahh. I'm currently using the first post on andreww's thread for reference, Cuuniyevo. I haven't dug into the thread enough to know what changes were made after that post (Im counting on others who were in the know to tell me if I goofed).
Ahh. I'm currently using the first post on andreww's thread for reference, Cuuniyevo. I haven't dug into the thread enough to know what changes were made after that post (Im counting on others who were in the know to tell me if I goofed).
Yeah, that's when it was changed; when he made this thread. The original thread was Mythic Fighter vs Wizard, and he proposed a smaller room. Then he made this thread (which you referenced) with the updated rules. They didn't change after that, I believe. There are two threads on this subject, both over 1000 posts, so it's easy to see where some confusion comes from.
Just read through it and can say with certainty that I didn't break anything that was posted (andreww dealt with questions by PM though, so we cant say for certain if there are rules that we don't know about)
And yeah, the rules were nebulous here for at least a hundred posts as the idea was kicked around.
As a proponent for the fighter, however, I completely support the largest arena allowed. Anything that confines the space narrows the potential search/spam volume that the opponent needs to go through.
The fighter I have actually prefers starting as far away as possible, to be out of perception range of the wizard, though this requires a teleport in the current arena.
I didn't post my objections, but a confined area really hinders all high level classes and takes away from a class comparison. I agree with the idea of large spaces to work in. Part of being high level is having to deal with greater areas.
Okay, let me rephrase this. Time Stop is not instantaneous, so it becomes permanent. It's effect, in the description, gives you 1d4+1 round of apparent time. You have a permanent effect that gives you, from the moment of casting, 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.
Tell me how the caster can define 'apparent time' that defies this. Not actual time, apparent time.
because there isn't apparent time on a timeless plane, how can you notice something that doesn't exist, everything just happens all at once or not at all, or some other weird combination of the two.
???, that's all i got.
Close, but technically there isn't (as I'm referring to it) actual time on a timeless plane. The wizard is still constrained to taking actions on a per round basis. It's just really simple, usually, to not bother tracking rounds (explaining that you do the same thing for 600 rounds every hour that passes would be tedious)
That does not mean that the wizard doesn't have the apparent experience of time. Otherwise, everything that the wizard does appears, even to him, to have passed instantaneously (not how the spell works)
Paizo went through some pretty decent phrasing gymnastics to prevent abuse of flowing time demiplanes. This might look like a loophole to effectively infinite time, but it isn't really.
I also went ahead and put together a fighter build, there are probably a few errors and I'm assuming some people can find additional optimizations, but here it is so far:
Leo Ur,
Human Fighter 20 / Mythic 10 Guardian
archetype unbreakable
traits, reactionary, second chance
Str 20; 9 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Dex 50; 18 + 2 racial, +5 Levels, +5 inherit, + 6 Enhancement ,+10 Mythic, + 4 Profane
Con 26; 13 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement, +2 Profane
Int 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Wis 25; 11 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Chr 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Fort +28; 12 +8con +1luck +6resist +1competence
Ref +33; 6 +20dex +1luck +5resist +1competence
Wil +24; 6 +7wis +1luck +5resist +1competence +4feat
AC +57; 10 +9armor +7shield +20dex +5deflection +5natural +1insight
Attack 47/42/37/32 1d6+25
Init +56 or 96+1d20; +20dex +4 improved init +12 mythic improved init +12 amazing initiative +4 enhancement +1 competence +1 luck +2 trait. Expending mythic powers, 1 to roll natural 20, 1 for +20 circumstance bonus, Expending legendary surge for +1d20 roll
Feats
1 Endurance
1 Diehard
1 racial heritage, dwarf
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Weapon Focus, Tonfa
3 Dimensional Agility
4 Weapon Specialization, Tonfa
5 Heroic Recovery (Ex), 4/day
5 Step Up
6 Disruptive
7 Dimensional Assault
8 Combat Reflexes
9 Dimensional Dervish
9 Heroic Defiance (Ex), 3/day
10 Spellbreaker
11 Following Step
12 Shatterspell
13 Step Up and Strike
14 Teleport Tactician
15 Improved Initiative
16 Power Attack
17 Greater Weapon Specialization, Tonfa
18 Iron Will
19 Pin Down
20 Improved Iron Will
Unflinching (Ex)
Armor Training 1
Armor Training 2
Quick Recovery (Ex)
Stalwart (Ex)
Unlimited Endurance (Ex)
Miraculous Recovery (Ex)
Armor Mastery (Ex) Damage Reduction 5/-
Unbreakable Mind (Ex) Immunity to mind-affecting effects
Mythic progression:
Hard to Kill
mythic power
1st feat: spellbreaker
Amazing initiative, +tier to init
+2 dex
Recuperation
2nd feat: weapon finesse
+2 dex
mythic saves
3rd feat: improved init, add tier to init
+2 dex
force of will
surge+1d10
4th feat: Extra Path Ability: Unchanging (Su)
+2 dex
unstoppable
immortal
5th feat: Extra Path Ability: Mythic Resolve
+2 dex
legendary hero
surge+1d12
~
tier paths
absorb blow (Su)
1: display of dexterity(Su) +20 circumstance bonus to dex skill or ability checks
2: mythic sustenance (su), do not eat, drink or breathe to live
3: legendary item (ex) 3 abilities
4: parry spell (su)
5: Sleepless (su) no longer sleep, immune sleep effects
6: legendary item, 6 abilities total
7: Longevity (Su) ageless
8: Armor Master (Ex) Light,
9: Mythic Paragon
10: legendary item, 10 abilities, greater artifact
True defender (su)
Legendary Item, Nightstick of Whoopass +5 Defiant(+2) Courageous(+1) Ghost Touch(+1) Guardian(+1) Dueling(14000) Invisible* Adamantine(3000) Tonfa, 1d6 x2 B type damage ([200,000+14,000]/2)=107,000 +3001 = 110,001 total
1 Undetectable
2 Upgradeable
3 Intelligent
4 Unstoppable Strike
5 Foe-Biting
6 intelligent; spellcasting, permanency
7 perfect surge, add surge to any d20, increase surge one step (1d12 goes to 1d20?)
8 intelligent; spellcasting, dimensional door, & level 1 spell(?)
9 intelligent; spellcasting, arcane sight, see invis
10 intelligent; spellcasting, dimensional door?(3/day) level 1 spell(?)
Skills 20 ranks:
Spellcraft +29 (headband)
Knowledge Arcana +29 (headband)
Knowledge Planes +29 (headband)
Perception +38
Acrobatics +42
Fly +42
Use Magic Device +29(+39 for wish scrolls)
Stealth +42
Equipment:
+5 Etherealness(49,000) Chain Shirt, 74,250
+5 Reflecting(+5) Heavy Steel Shield, 100,170
+5 Ring of Protection, 50,000
+5 Amulet Natural Armor, 50,000
Ring Freedom of Movement, 40,000
+5/+6 Pauldrons of Unflinching Fortitude, 37,500
Belt of Physical Perfection +6, 144,000
Headband of Mental Superiority +6, 144,000
Boots of Speed, 12,000
Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls, 30,000
Eyes of the Eagle, 2,500
Stone of Good Luck, 10,000
Ioun Stones:
Tourmaline Sphere, cracked 800 +1 insight vs death effects
Pale Green Prism, 30,000, +1 competence attack rolls saves skills ability checks
Dusty Rose Prism, 5,000 +1 insight ac
Dark Blue Rhomboid, 10,000, alertness feat
Wand Key Ring (Wish)+10 insight bonus UMD
Handy Haversack, 2000
Scroll of Wish
remaining gold, 20954
I haven't done the buffs yet, but Since Leo has his very own Snow-Cone Wish Factory, he has access to every Arcane Spell Level 8 and below (a few level 9 via the summon list) and every divine spell level 7 and below. If we allow him to use a simulacrum of a Formian Queen for craft wonderous item, he would get an additional 25% wealth (or just cut the wondeorus stuff in half) He also has access to Greater Spell Immuneity from another Simulacrum (getting protection from Maze is pretty important)
Leo Ur typically spends his day under mindblank+invis with a Simulacrum of a Couatl (also mindblank+invis) until he finds himself some puny (non-mythic) wizard to beat up with his nightstick, he then goes buffs, goes etheral and begins by using dervish dervish to begin the hurt. He rarely loses initiative.
Ok, I think I have a first pass at feats/abilities.
Ive made some changes to the previous set of base abilities, because some things were redundant. (Commune with Power = Miracle on days I don't need it, Longevity = Everlasting item)
** spoiler omitted **...
I like how you're using the Summoners list, I wasn't aware that andreww shutdown the snowcone factory by saying simulacrum can't make more of themselves. In that case if Leo Ur was made for specially andrewws set of house rules I would probably adjust my legendary item in a similar fashion, I even get dim door at level 3 instead which is nice.
I do want access to permanency though, does being granted a wish allow me to cast permanency as I am the caster?
Simulacrums are incapable of becoming more powerful, and one of the side effects of that is that they are incapable of making magic items for themselves or others.
Probably can't conjure up efreets for wishes, either, for the same reason.
==Aelryinth
For permanency, Id get rid of the last spell casting you have on your item, change it to Everlasting, then use the ability you have in Mythic Sustenance for Divine Source (Luck/Community and something else. Miracle will give you permanency once per day for free, (or another simulacrum on days you don't need it) and a bunch more versatility)
I'd probably say no to the wish from another creature counting as you having cast it. That said, I'm almost never for anything outside what is written in text for Rules discussions (and I'm wrong sometimes to boot!) so YMMV. (edit: holy heck Batman, this is the General Discussion forum)
About the infinite time stuff. The apparent time is on the duration line and it does not have an effect line. That means my TS is permanent. I actually have to dispel it or leave the plane to get it to stop.
This rule is very stupid.
When I flee it is always into the infinite up. I can not use the time stop trick during the fight because I can not leave the plane.
@Aelryinth: Pretty sure that the more powerful clause mean levels or HD and not items.
@Adept
I know you bust my sphere. If that arrow does not kill me I can flee away. Can you kill me with the same arrow that busted the sphere? Do you ignore blur and mirror image?
What is your range on the shot? If you less then 4600 feet I can rapidly move down the line of the arrow and break you invis. I think I saw 5500 somewhere and if so I have not yet found a way to back trace fast enough. I would have to rely on teleportation and getting lucky enough that you were within 140 feet of me.
@Trimalchio
Nice init. Far higher then mine. I think I still win.
I come into the fight with invisibility purge up from wish, limited wish, shadow evo, greater shadow evo, a scroll, and a magic item.During the prep round I use wish to put up forbidence in my start zone. You can not be ethereal near me nor can you teleport. You can wish port. I also surround myself with a wall of suppression.
Since you win init I get less actions against you. Once you enter the field either by wish or movement you become visible. My contingent action goes of and I cast wall of suppression on you. If you have spellbane vs wall of suppresion then it fails, if not no longer have magic. If it fails your contingency can go off.
If your contingency puts a spell on you then it is wasted. If you flee away, so do I and we end in a draw. If you target me with a spell in needs a CL 27 to effect me. If you attack me it is blocked by EMS.
If you have the ability to make more then 1 attack as standard action then the second one gets a chance to...
More Powerful means more powerful. Items are definitely a part of that. So they can't make themselves more powerful by any permanent means. Buffing, sure, that's part of what they currently are. But items and popping efreet for inherents are right out.
==Aelryinth
I also went ahead and put together a fighter build, there are probably a few errors and I'm assuming some people can find additional optimizations, but here it is so far:
(...)Str 20; 9 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Dex 50; 18 + 2 racial, +5 Levels, +5 inherit, + 6 Enhancement ,+10 Mythic, + 4 Profane
Con 26; 13 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement, +2 Profane
Int 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Wis 25; 11 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Chr 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
how did you do to get your Inherent and profane bonuses ?
Legendary Item, Nightstick of Whoopass +5 Defiant(+2) Courageous(+1) Ghost Touch(+1) Guardian(+1) Dueling(14000) Invisible* Adamantine(3000) Tonfa, 1d6 x2 B type damage ([200,000+14,000]/2)=107,000 +3001 = 110,001 total
Unless I recall incorrectly, you can only "upgrade" the bonus, not give new proprieties to the weapon.
At best, you are at 153000gp for your weapon...Equipment:
+5 Etherealness(49,000) Chain Shirt, 74,250
+5 Reflecting(+5) Heavy Steel Shield, 100,170
+5 Ring of Protection, 50,000
+5 Amulet Natural Armor, 50,000
Ring Freedom of Movement, 40,000
+5/+6 Pauldrons of Unflinching Fortitude, 37,500
Belt of Physical Perfection +6, 144,000
Headband of Mental Superiority +6, 144,000
Boots of Speed, 12,000
Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls, 30,000
Eyes of the Eagle, 2,500
Stone of Good Luck, 10,000
Ioun Stones:
Tourmaline Sphere, cracked 800 +1 insight vs death effects
Pale Green Prism, 30,000, +1 competence attack rolls saves skills ability checks
Dusty Rose Prism, 5,000 +1 insight ac
Dark Blue Rhomboid, 10,000, alertness feat
Wand Key Ring (Wish)+10 insight bonus UMD [3000, you forgot to mention that]
Handy Haversack, 2000
You forgot your weapon (~150000gp), and you're way out of gold (920720gp instead of 880000).
You still didn't have wish scrolls and/or tomes of inherent ability boosts.
And you don't have simulacrum scrolls/way of casting simulacrum either, so you can't use your own strategy.
I haven't done the buffs yet, but Since Leo has his very own Snow-Cone Wish Factory
How ?
Leo Ur typically spends his day under mindblank+invis
How ?
@Trimalchio
During the prep round I use wish to put up forbidence in my start zone.
Unless Wish is coming from a spell like ability, you'll need the additional holy water and incense worth 1,500 gp of material components on hand. Also, assuming your alignment is neutral, you'll want to have a password which requires the burning of additional rare incenses worth at least 1,000 gp.
I'll go ahead and incorporate Adeptt Woodwrights advice so I can properly abuse simulacrum as per andrewws house rules. I'll put up the rebuild later today.
~
In terms of gold cost for my weapon, I'm using "Upgradable: This ability grants the bonded creature the ability to more easily increase the non-mythic magical power of the legendary item. If the base magic item has a version with a higher bonus or greater version (such as a +1 longsword, a +2 light steel shield, a cloak of protection +3, an amulet of might fists +4, or a minor ring of inner fortitude), the bonded creature can improve it by performing a special ritual. She must spend a number of gold pieces equal to half the difference between the cost of the legendary item's current, non-mythic base item and the greater version she wishes to upgrade the item into. For example, she would pay 3,000 gp to upgrade a +1 longsword into a +2 longsword."
If the ruling means I can't use that to add things like Guardian or Ghost Touch I'll rework the equipment. If I really need the additional funds and the rules we use constrain my access to crafting, I'll adjust the mythic paths to give myself duel path archmage and take Crafting Mastery for +50% wealth.
In terms of gold cost for my weapon, I'm using "Upgradable: This ability grants the bonded creature the ability to more easily increase the non-mythic magical power of the legendary item. If the base magic item has a version with a higher bonus or greater version (such as a +1 longsword, a +2 light steel shield, a cloak of protection +3, an amulet of might fists +4, or a minor ring of inner fortitude), the bonded creature can improve it by performing a special ritual. She must spend a number of gold pieces equal to half the difference between the cost of the legendary item's current, non-mythic base item and the greater version she wishes to upgrade the item into. For example, she would pay 3,000 gp to upgrade a +1 longsword into a +2 longsword."
If the ruling means I can't use that to add things like Guardian or Ghost Touch I'll rework the equipment.
You can only improve the bonus, or a lesser ability into a greater ability.
So, you can improve your +1 weapon into +2, +3 or whatever, or you could improve your +1 armor of lesser fire resist into a +1 armor of greater fire resist, but not grant new properties to your weapon.
And you didn't answer to the other questions...
Simulacrums are incapable of becoming more powerful, and one of the side effects of that is that they are incapable of making magic items for themselves or others.
That would be a house-rule.
Under that logic, a simulacrum could never flank or take better tactical position because that increases their power. Nor could they pick up mundane items or wear clothes. (Which APs have simulacrums doing all of those things).
That line only makes any consistent sense if it only applies to gaining levels.
tactics are not gaining more powerful. You're being obtuse.
A simulacarum cannot become more powerful...it's right in the spell description. That means it is incapable of permanently altering its own stat block.
It could earn money (someone gives it gold), and go out and BUY items, but it cannot make them.
Likewise, someone else could give it inherent bonuses, but it can't read a book or make a Wish to do so for itself.
Profane bonuses are usually assumed by contract with succubi, at the cost of becoming CE. A lillitu works, too.
==Aelryinth
tactics are not gaining more powerful. You're being obtuse.
Under your definition of "more powerful" it is.
Magic items can be taken away. Thus temporary.
You must earn good tactical position.
You also point out how in theory something could not give the simulacrum inherent bonuses or magical items because that is a permanent altering of it's stat block, but then you say that can be done to simulacrum
Your definition of "more powerful" is bad and leads to contradictions.
i'd say banning them wishing/booking themselves (or other folks wishing for them) for better stats and gaining levels would be banned as directly increasing their power, but things like wearing gear (or making gear, since that's just a gold/time expenditure and requires them to have already had the feats when they were created) should be A-Okay.
otherwise yeah, they couldnt do things like wear gear (which has already been shown in-canon as possible).
I find the idea that a simulacrum can earn money and buy magical items, but not earn money and then use that money to make magical items very counter-intuitive. In both cases the simulacrum gains a new item and either does or does not "become more powerful", depending on how you interpret the Simulacrum description.
Simulacrum is an incredibly flavorful spell that unfortunately also presents a multitude of issues for a GM with one or more power-happy players. Paizo have mentioned they want to write a blog on it, I for one look forward to the day.
In the meantime I think "a simulacrum has no way to permanently improve his own stat block" is a reasonable reading of the spell, assuming "gear" is not considered permanent. We don't want to completely lock the stat block since Simulacrum only stipulates that an increase of power is impossible, a decrease in power is perfectly possible.
So if a simulacrum suffers ability damage, is there then no way to repair it?
What about HP damage? The spell says we can repair HP damage, but that is permanently changing the stat block for the better in the same way as healing ability damage or conferring an inherent bonus. Thus, under that definition of "more powerful" the spell contradicts itself.
So if a simulacrum suffers ability damage, is there then no way to repair it?
What about HP damage? The spell says we can repair HP damage, but that is permanently changing the stat block for the better in the same way as healing ability damage or conferring an inherent bonus. Thus, under that definition of "more powerful" the spell contradicts itself.
shrug. i'd say bringing it back up to it's original statblock (via greater restoration spell etc.) would be acceptable. i'd think it's more a matter of going beyond it's initial state than going back up to it.
No contradiction in the rules. The general rule is that the sim can't become more powerful which "can't permanently improve own stat block" is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
The specific rule is that using a complex process taking 24 hours and repairing 1 hp per 100 gp allows you to repair the sim. The specific trumps the general, but otherwise the general rule stands. You can't improve the sim by using cure wounds for example.
Actually that begs the question of why you can't use CLW on a snow-cone.
No where does the text say you can't. It merely list a method to heal the snow-cone. It doesn't even say simulacrum can't heal naturally.
It seems that we are left to interpret the snow-cone as a special kind of construct. Unless it can heal on it's own, or we must consider HP gain as "more powerful". Then there is only one process to reverse that.
"A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."
It cannot increase its level or abilities.
Abilities is an extremely broad term that apply to pretty much a character's entire stat block.
HP is an ability, thus it can't increase without the specific exception granted.
Hmmm
I recent.
There is no RAW use of simulacrum. Every use requires GM adjudication.
Therefore it should not be allowed during class comparisons.
These are not fighter bias bans, this is just a consequence of the fighter having far clearer rules.
Now mythics...
Alright, Using some suggestions, redoing equipment, correcting a few errors I can present:
Leo Ur, Giver of Miracles
Leo Ur,
Human Fighter 20 / Mythic 10 Guardian
archetype unbreakable
traits, reactionary, second chance
Str 20; 9 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Dex 50; 18 + 2 racial, +5 Levels, +5 inherit, + 6 Enhancement ,+10 Mythic, + 4 Profane
Con 26; 13 +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement, +2 Profane
Int 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Wis 25; 11 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Chr 24; 10 +3 age, +5 Inherit, +6 Enhancement
Fort +28; 12 +8con +1luck +6resist +1competence
Ref +33; 6 +20dex +1luck +5resist +1competence
Wil +22; 6 +7wis +1luck +5resist +1competence +2feat
AC +45; 10 +2armor +2shield +20dex +5deflection +5natural +1insight
Attack 47/42/37/32 1d6+25
Init +56 or 96+1d20; +20dex +4 improved init +12 mythic improved init +12 amazing initiative +4 enhancement +1 competence +1 luck +2 trait. Expending mythic powers, 1 to roll natural 20, 1 for +20 circumstance bonus, Expending legendary surge for +1d20 roll
hitpoints ;(20d10+180)
Feats
1 Endurance
1 Diehard
1 racial heritage, dwarf
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Weapon Focus, Tonfa
3 Dimensional Agility
4 Weapon Specialization, Tonfa
5 Heroic Recovery (Ex), 4/day
5 Step Up
6 Disruptive
7 Dimensional Assault
8 Combat Reflexes
9 Dimensional Dervish
9 Heroic Defiance (Ex), 3/day
10 Spellbreaker
11 Following Step
12 Shatterspell
13 Step Up and Strike
14 Teleport Tactician
15 Improved Initiative
16 Power Attack
17 Greater Weapon Specialization, Tonfa
18 Iron Will
19 Pin Down
20 Improved Iron Will
Unflinching (Ex)
Armor Training 1
Armor Training 2
Quick Recovery (Ex)
Stalwart (Ex)
Unlimited Endurance (Ex)
Miraculous Recovery (Ex)
Armor Mastery (Ex) Damage Reduction 5/-
Unbreakable Mind (Ex) Immunity to mind-affecting effects
Mythic progression:
Hard to Kill
mythic power
1st feat: spellbreaker
Amazing initiative, +tier to init
+2 dex
Recuperation
2nd feat: weapon finesse
+2 dex
mythic saves
3rd feat: improved init, add tier to init
+2 dex
force of will
4th feat: Extra Path Ability: Unchanging (Su)
+2 dex
unstoppable
immortal
5th feat: Mythic Paragon
+2 dex
legendary hero
surge+1d12
~
tier paths
absorb blow (Su)
1: display of dexterity(Su) +20 circumstance bonus to dex skill or ability checks
2: Armor Master (Ex) Light
3: legendary item (ex) 3 abilities
4: parry spell (su)
5: Sleepless (su) no longer sleep, immune sleep effects
6: legendary item, 6 abilities total
7: Divine Source (Su) Luck & Protection
8: Divine Source (Su) Death; Travel & Ash
9: Mythic Resolve
10: legendary item, 10 abilities, greater artifact
True defender (su)
~
Legendary Item, Big Black The Nightstick of Whoopass +5 Defiant(+2) Courageous(+1) Ghost Touch(+1) Guardian(+1) Dueling(14000) Invisible* Intelligent Adamantine(3000) Tonfa, 1d6 x2 B type damage
Cost, +1 Defiant Courageous Ghost Touch Guardian = +6 (72,000) upgraded to +5 (200,000), 128,000/2 =64,000. Total Cost 72,000+64,000+14,000+3001= 153001 total
1 Undetectable
2 Upgradeable
3 Intelligent
4 Unstoppable Strike
5 Foe-Biting
6 intelligent; spellcasting(Summoner list), Dimensional Door, See Invisibility
7 perfect surge, add surge to any d20, increase surge one step (1d12 goes to 1d20?)
8 intelligent; spellcasting, Simulacrum
9 intelligent; spellcasting, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility
10 Everlasting, Do not age, eat, drink, breathe, nor suffer extreme heat and cold
Alignment: Neutral
18 Int, 18 Wis, 18 Chr, Ego: 23? (27 vs non mythic)
Senses 30ft, Speech(Su) Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Gnomish
~
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 24th, or 34 with full kimono and active karma bead)
1/day from each level(i.e. true strike or sanctuary):
Luck:
1st—true strike, 2nd—aid, 3rd—protection from energy, 4th—freedom of movement, 5th—break enchantment, 6th—mislead, 7th—spell turning, 8th—moment of prescience, 9th—miracle.
Protection:
1st—sanctuary, 2nd—shield other, 3rd—protection from energy, 4th—spell immunity, 5th—spell resistance, 6th—antimagic field, 7th—repulsion, 8th—mind blank, 9th—prismatic sphere.
Death:
1st—cause fear, 2nd—death knell, 3rd—animate dead, 4th—death ward, 5th—slay living, 6th—create undead, 7th—destruction, 8th—create greater undead, 9th—wail of the banshee.
Trade:
1st—floating disk, 2nd—locate object, 3rd—fly, 4th—dimension door, 5th—overland flight, 6th—find the path, 7th—greater teleport, 8th—phase door, 9th—gate.
Ash:
1st—burning hands, 2nd—produce flame, 3rd—fireball, 4th—wall of fire, 5th—fire shield, 6th—fire seeds, 7th—disintegrate, 8th—incendiary cloud 9th—fiery body.
SLA From Tonfa:
1/day: Simulacrum, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Invisibility, See Invisibility
Skills 20 ranks:
Spellcraft +29 (headband)
Knowledge Arcana +29 (headband)
Knowledge Planes +29 (headband)
Perception +38
Acrobatics +42
Fly +42
Use Magic Device +29
Stealth +42
Equipment:
Legendary Tonfa, 153,001
+1 Etherealness(49,000) Chain Shirt, 50,250
MW Heavy Steel Shield, 170
+5 Ring of Protection, 50,000
Ring Invisibility, 20,000
+5 Amulet Natural Armor, 50,000
+5/+6 Pauldrons of Unflinching Fortitude, 37,500
Belt of Physical Perfection +6, 144,000
Headband of Mental Superiority +6, 144,000
Boots of Speed, 12,000
Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls, 30,000
Kimono, Otherwordly, 67,000
Eyes of the Eagle, 2,500
Bead of Karma, 20,000
Stone of Good Luck, 10,000
Ioun Stones:
Tourmaline Sphere, cracked 800 +1 insight vs death effects
Pale Green Prism, 30,000, +1 competence attack rolls saves skills ability checks
Dusty Rose Prism, 5,000 +1 insight ac
Dark Blue Rhomboid, 10,000, alertness feat
Handy Haversack, 2000
scroll arcane sight, 375
scroll darkvision, 150
Total cost 838,746
gold remaining: 41,254
~
Since Leo has Gate as a SLA 1/day at up to CL 34 he typically pals around with Great Wyrm Gold Dragons, Solars, Titans, Behemoths etc. He's even been known to call forth a Havero or Balor Lord depending on which multiverse he finds himself traveling through.
Depending on how Create Greater Undead would be adjudicated, Death Domain may be switched out for Knowledge or something else.
A typical Buff list isn't done yet, but once any additional errors and rule clarifications are done I can put one together.
I'm posting the text of Time Stop for reference:
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
It happens that the duration of the spell matches the length of the usual effect. Timeless planes make the duration permanent. The effect of the spell, though, is still as written :1d4+1 rounds apparent time
It has been pointed out to me earlier in the thread that spells with conflicting tabular information (that which is above the description) and descriptions are resolved by what is written in the description.
Timeless planes result in an inconsistency in the duration of the expected effect. Your interpretation is perfectly valid if the text read 'for the duration of the spell' rather than expressing a particular value.
It's poorly written, but this interpretation is at least as valid as yours.
If you have forbiddance up, can you teleport out of it? It probably doesn't matter though.
Blur is ignored, but mirror image is not, so I'll change tactic to account for that.
I get a simulacrum to Mage's Disjunction Forbiddance (Pleroma Aeon, to be specific. I know you're trying not to abuse simulacra, but I don't think one-three is too abusive. Regardless let's see a 20th level cleric who counts arcane spells as divine)
I greater teleport right next to you (still assuming you're visible to track initially). I close my eyes and use mythic blind fight and blind sense to negate mirror image. I might be able to negate your means of detecting me, but it might not be necessary. I'll see what to do if needed.
With Stand Still, a bow reach of 15 ft, and Combat reflexes, I can make a reasonable number of attacks of opportunity (Dex is going to be high on an archer)
Disregarding whatever I attempt with my first action, what do you do to flee? When you cast a swift or standard spell, I get an AoO to disrupt. I almost certainly hit (no miss chance, touch/flat footed AC) and damage will be around a hundred with Foe-Biting. Concentration probably won't succeed.
Moving 5 ft won't help, withdraw will still provoke at the 15 ft range.
Having buddies might help you... I could spend my first rounds dealing with them (or have my Pleroma simulacra at my back) while using attacks of opportunity to prevent your spell casting.
Thoughts? I probably overlooked something.
You're right, I forgot wish covers everything 10k and below. (So only a 25k Diamond then)
Most everyone is going to be neutral since it typically has the best advantages mechanically.
One big advantage mythic fighters are going to have over non-mythic spellcasters is mythic spellbreaker feat:
If a non-mythic creature within 30 feet of you uses a spell or spell-like ability, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity (even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity). You must have a ranged weapon in hand or have a free hand and the non-mythic Quick Draw feat to use this ability. You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.
Both myself and adept are making use of it. between this feat, having a good chance of winning initiative, and getting to pick a limited selection of spells to be spell-like abilities, mythic fighters seem to be at least competitive.
I feel like my build is almost done, I'd be willing to run it in a play by post if we can all agree on a DM and any rule clarifications. Wall of Suppression is pretty nasty but since it doesn't work on artifacts and any spells above your caster level I think a mythic fighter can (maybe) soak it, what is your concentration check?
Even without buffing and not really optimizing for damage(Leo is using a 1d6 weapon), he'll be hitting you for 2d6+52, power attack adds another +20, so 2d6+72, concentration check when damaged is 10 + damage dealt + spell level, so you're looking at a DC ~89 plus spell level. Generally if Leo gets adjacent to a non-mythic wizard things will likely go badly for the wizard.
Mathius, seeing as it is made of at least one 60 ft cube, I assume part of the Forbiddance may be affected by Mage's Disjunction. Regardless, the same Aeon Pleroma can wish me next to you, so it is moot. That's actually probably better. That leaves the Forbiddance up, preventing you from leaving via contingency teleport.
Contingent action still has you casting a spell, which provokes (regardless of how you go about it, thanks to mythic spellbreaker) A contingency is about the only way I see you getting a spell out.
---
Trimalchio, you forgot to multiply by 2 for Foe-Biting. When combat is entered, there is no reason not to nova.
Mythic meleeist with an artifact reach weapon won't even be slowed down by wall of suppression. Think you could find room to switch the tonfa for a deadly whip?
you mean a scorpion whip--deals lethal, counts as whip, and doesnt require a +1 enchant to work!
Missed the Moment of Prescience last time I looked through your tactic:
I was basing my thoughts on Anzyr's posted build for AC. His flatfooted AC is 17. With +24 from Moment of Prescience (he already had +1 from something), this is 41. Still easily obtainable, though I suppose he didn't optimize his Touch AC.
Flatfooted Touch: 17 (10 + 5(Deflection) + 2 (Luck) + 1(Insight) - 1 Size)
I'm huge size, so Ill peak into the area of Wall of Suppression. Any spell I cast off of the SLAs from the Legendary Item are at CL 29 (2xMythic Tier, +Bead of Karma +Ioun). So is my Greater Invisibility (though this is taken care of by other things you have)
-- I think the only relevant things on legendary item are enlarge person and haste.
-- What is the caster level on Divine Source spells? Ive been assuming it is player level, though it probably ought to depend on Mythic Tier like every other Mythic thing in play.
That said, the simulacrum you have will need a Wish CL of at least 28 to get through your own wall of suppression, and/or it needs to be touching you (or at the very least within 30 ft of me). I don't know Simulacra with that CL, and if it is next to you it provokes attacks of opportunity just as you would. (--Edit: goofed this up. Wish works regardless of local conditions, so can be done from anywhere.)
Mythic spellbreaker is really big deal. That means I need to be 35 feet away in order for my tactic win.
Now I need to find a way to deal with wishport to right next to me.
Sinc you are using 1 sim I will use my 1 sim as an escape route.It needs EMF and wish to get me out. I think I can find a way to pull that off.
Mythic spellbreaker means I need to find away to prevent etherealness in largish area but that I can still teleport in.
Maybe I can go ethereal and use the metamagic feet to get you in the material.
Barring that I need to find a way to make your AoO not matter.
Not sure how yet.
i'd say "crane style!" but then paizo hates monk options and that is no longer a thing.