The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
I imagine you still have to see what your shooting at. You've listed a lot of mythic powers, how many do you get in total again?It also did not matter who won initiative. I was in teleport range at the start not bow range.This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level.
Multiply the range increment on all of your ranged and thrown weapons by 5 feet, and these weapons no longer have a maximum range increment for you. You can throw any melee weapon as if it had a range increment of 20 feet—this increment isn't multiplied by 5, but the weapon doesn't have a maximum range increment.Bow range > Teleport range.
Oh come on! You're going to ask the fighter that but not the "any typical wizard," who has 3 hands and alread cast half of his 8th and 9th level spells to specifically defeat my tactics (and failed)?
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You guys argue and argue and argue. The only way to prove anything is to actually do a rumble with a Mythic Fighter vs. a Wizard. Set parameters for builds. Set terrain. Someone GM. Make sure builds are fair and reasonable. We all watch. I'll get the popcorn. Otherwise it's all theory and theory and theory and blah blah blah blah blah. Because, I can do this. Well this counters this. Oh yeah, well how about this. But I got this. And rock beats scissors. Well paper beats rock.
Edit: I for one would be interested in seeing an actual battle play out, and seeing two builds, and seeing the whole deal go down.
Other people, including me, have made the suggestion before.
Anzyr never actually stats his wizards, it would mean no more infinite choices made after the fact.
The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
Dude MME specifically says you have to use the nail to break the ball, spellcasting says you have to have a free hand, and spellcasting says that material components must be attended by the caster.
You guys argue and argue and argue. The only way to prove anything is to actually do a rumble with a Mythic Fighter vs. a Wizard. Set parameters for builds. Set terrain. Someone GM. Make sure builds are fair and reasonable. We all watch. I'll get the popcorn. Otherwise it's all theory and theory and theory and blah blah blah blah blah. Because, I can do this. Well this counters this. Oh yeah, well how about this. But I got this. And rock beats scissors. Well paper beats rock.
Edit: I for one would be interested in seeing an actual battle play out, and seeing two builds, and seeing the whole deal go down.
On the one hand, I have to agree that the argument is getting a bit circular and ridiculous. At this point it's less about the classes and more about arguing over how specific spells work and who can come up with the most ridiculous tricks to win a hypothetical battle and/or counters for the other guy's ridiculous tricks.
However, the issue with going to specific builds/battles is that it will inevitably just shift the conversation to debating the builds and/or the conditions of the battle. Versus threads just seem to never work out.
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I don't see why you can't ready an action out of combat. You can take standard actions out of combat. The rules for readied action says your initiative changes, but they don't say you can only do it during an encounter.
Interrupting someone doesn't or preparing to act as soon as something happens doesn't seem like a combat-only option.
Everyone "We all ready actions"
GM "Okay, roll initiative"EDIT: There's also the side effect that the game becomes unplayable at that point. Any usage of such a thing would result in ludicrous first rounds of combat where you can essentially hit no one ("I ready an action to move away from anything that would harm me"), and you'd never roll initiative (you initiative becomes slightly better than whatever triggered your action).
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I don't see why you can't ready an action out of combat. You can take standard actions out of combat. The rules for readied action says your initiative changes, but they don't say you can only do it during an encounter.
Interrupting someone doesn't or preparing to act as soon as something happens doesn't seem like a combat-only option.
You'd have to have an initiative in the first place before you can take an action which, as part of the cost, changes your initiative.
Basically think of it as an out of combat readied action as being what a surprise round is.
You've listed a lot of mythic powers, how many do you get in total again?Like the wizards in this thread, I don't need to define what I actually have until I use it.
Or is that listed in RAW somewhere as a wizard only ability.
I can except that to a certain degree, but I feel as though there's a false equivalency being made between class abilities, mythic powers and spells on a prepared caster. At the very least, I would grant the wizard the likely spells that they are going to use in every situation like escape contingencies. Once a caster escapes you may run into them again and be fully prepared. That's the problem with these different systems.
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So, it's utterly impossible to attack someone right when they start casting a spell? There's no counter to that?You'd have to have an initiative in the first place before you can take an action which, as part of the cost, changes your initiative.
Basically think of it as an out of combat readied action as being what a surprise round is.
Spellbreaker.
But most DM's make players roll initiative when anyone declares they are casting. At best, the caster gets a surprise round if the opponents fail their perception or sense motive checks.
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How does a mythic fighter actually kill a wizard? Wouldn't you have contingency to protect you? Not to mention that wizards have more than one body after a certain level. I feel like this would lead to a stalemate.
The refusal of the "wizurds always win!!!" crowd to provide stats means that their contingency is undefined. As wizurds only get a sole contingency, having it be undefined is equivalent to not having one at all. Likewise, unless clones are defined in the non-existent build, they don't exist. In fact, since none of the wizurd's prepared spells are defined, he has no spells prepared. This is unsurprising, since a refusal to nail down even the comtents of a spellbook mean that the wizard doesn't actually have any spells that can be prepared.
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That's only if you threaten and they fail to cast defensively. All ranged options simply don't exist, and only fighters can do it (or a class ability that grants it). Swift action casts are completely immune. That right?
Benefit: Any non-mythic creature you threaten provokes an attack of opportunity from you whenever it uses a spell or spell-like ability, even when casting defensively or casting a quickened spell.If a non-mythic creature within 30 feet of you uses a spell or spell-like ability, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity (even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity). You must have a ranged weapon in hand or have a free hand and the non-mythic Quick Draw feat to use this ability. You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.
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You can ready an action to disrupt spellcasting with an attack of any kind. You just have to be in initiative and actually have an action available. The issue with the previously proposed scenario is that readied actions were occurring outside initiative by creatures who didn't have actions yet.
To clarify: you don't get to cast a hostile spell without rolling initiative. Even doing so deceptively only gets you the possibility of a surprise round - it's still an encounter with an initiative count, and that means there might be people who go before you.
Also a lot of wizards seem to add more to their spells (such as moment of prescience, gate and contact other plane) to bend things to their favor which aren't mentioned in the spell.
I believe the fighter has created doubt, which is enough for this exercise. Honestly, I'm beginning to think that a 12/tier 6 fighter with good gear could beat a 20th level wizard. Especially an 'average' one. And the 16th and 12th level wizards... even easier.
That's only if you threaten and they fail to cast defensively. All ranged options simply don't exist, and only fighters can do it (or a class ability that grants it). Swift action casts are completely immune. That right?
Swift action spellcasting does not provoke attacks of opportunity. They can, however, be disrupted due to readied actions or whatever else might provoke a concentration check that the caster could fail to pass.
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So, only children of gods or beings of inherent divine nature can ever possibly take a potshot at someone starting to cast a spell to initiate combat even if the caster is quite obviously hostile. That's a tad ridiculous in a RAI sense of things.
No
Most GM's have players roll initiative with a surprise round. Those who pass a perception or sense motive check can act, in initiative order.
Dude MME specifically says you have to use the nail to break the ball, spellcasting says you have to have a free hand, and spellcasting says that material components must be attended by the caster.The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
By my reading of it the nail and the ball are the components, so I don't see why it can't be done in one hand. If you can handle a material component, and a focus then why not two material components?
You are adding things that are not there, by assuming you must use the nail in one hand to break the ball in the other hand.
How does a mythic fighter actually kill a wizard? Wouldn't you have contingency to protect you? Not to mention that wizards have more than one body after a certain level. I feel like this would lead to a stalemate.The refusal of the "wizurds always win!!!" crowd to provide stats means that their contingency is undefined. As wizurds only get a sole contingency, having it be undefined is equivalent to not having one at all. Likewise, unless clones are defined in the non-existent build, they don't exist. In fact, since none of the wizurd's prepared spells are defined, he has no spells prepared. This is unsurprising, since a refusal to nail down even the comtents of a spellbook mean that the wizard doesn't actually have any spells that can be prepared.
Well, the clone / simulacrum horde has the much larger issue of requiring infinite wealth being given via a spell that doesn't show up on the PRD. Which, unless I'm mistaken in how this kind of thing works, means its not PFS legal, so it's not something any wizard can just pick up when they want. Probably intended that way.
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You misunderstand. You can't take "special initiative actions" like readying outside of initiative, and once you are in initiative you don't have actions until your initiative count comes up.Inside combat I completely agree. However, to say you cannot ever, possibly, under any circumstance anticipate an attack unless you're already being attacked is absurd. That should fall under the common sense arena.
Our gaming group handles that by saying you're simply not caught flat-footed, but the other side still gets the chance to blitz you if they're faster on the draw. It seems reasonable and has worked out well so far.
How does a mythic fighter actually kill a wizard? Wouldn't you have contingency to protect you? Not to mention that wizards have more than one body after a certain level. I feel like this would lead to a stalemate.The refusal of the "wizurds always win!!!" crowd to provide stats means that their contingency is undefined. As wizurds only get a sole contingency, having it be undefined is equivalent to not having one at all. Likewise, unless clones are defined in the non-existent build, they don't exist. In fact, since none of the wizurd's prepared spells are defined, he has no spells prepared. This is unsurprising, since a refusal to nail down even the comtents of a spellbook mean that the wizard doesn't actually have any spells that can be prepared.
Who is in the crowd? This board has a problem of generalizing when even people who have the opinion disagree enough on the same topic to not be in the same group. It is better to quote certain people so they can own up or explain their position.
I have to agree with Lemmy that you can ready an action out of combat. I'm prepared to be wrong about this, however.
BigDTBone: I'm sorry you feel differently, but the rules say you only need one hand free hand to cast MME. And as has been covered Aroden's Spellbane merely suppresses spells. In a show of arguing good faith, I would like you to concede on these points.
Seannoss: I only use spells precisely as RAW allows me to.
Finally if a neutral GM who is willing to run a versus match RAW I will submit a build to that GM. The specifics of the match up will have to be agreed upon by myself and the challenger as to what constitutes winning or losing.
That being said, I've been being pretty fair in this thread. The build will not be. Wizard is acceptable yes?
So, only children of gods or beings of inherent divine nature can ever possibly take a potshot at someone starting to cast a spell to initiate combat even if the caster is quite obviously hostile. That's a tad ridiculous in a RAI sense of things.
In most games declaration of a hostile act gets a call for initiative, not a free spell. That mythic ability cited above just gives an AoO when you would not normally get one for those specific situations.
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You misunderstand. You can't take "special initiative actions" like readying outside of initiative, and once you are in initiative you don't have actions until your initiative count comes up.Inside combat I completely agree. However, to say you cannot ever, possibly, under any circumstance anticipate an attack unless you're already being attacked is absurd. That should fall under the common sense arena.
Not "when you're already being attacked," iwhen initiative has been rolled. If you're facing a potential hostile who announces "I hit you with a fireball," you get to roll initiative before that action occurs - and if you win, you can ready a counterattack before the fireball actually goes off.
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?
Dude MME specifically says you have to use the nail to break the ball, spellcasting says you have to have a free hand, and spellcasting says that material components must be attended by the caster.The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
By my reading of it the nail and the ball are the components, so I don't see why it can't be done in one hand. If you can handle a material component, and a focus then why not two material components?
You are adding things that are not there, by assuming you must use the nail in one hand to break the ball in the other hand.
No I'm not! Under normal conditions you do not have to have the material components in hand. In this spell you do. One hand for material components. You STILL need a free hand for somatic components. That's a total of two hands. You are out of hands!
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So, only children of gods or beings of inherent divine nature can ever possibly take a potshot at someone starting to cast a spell to initiate combat even if the caster is quite obviously hostile. That's a tad ridiculous in a RAI sense of things.In most games declaration of a hostile act gets a call for initiative, not a free spell. That mythic ability cited above just gives an AoO when you would not normally get one for those specific situations.
Agreed
Mythic Spell Breaker + Combat Reflexes do not replace an initiative roll. They allow an AoO, at range, if the caster has a higher initiative, manages to surprise you, or uses a quickened spell.
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?
I was using one I brought with me on the premise that actions can be readied out of combat. The debate could be solved simply by casting Summon Monster IX while in the Time Stop, as Summoned Monsters can act immediately. Thus a summoned Nalfeshnee can cast Greater Dispel Magic on my turn and trigger the runes once the Time Stop effect ends.
No I'm not! Under normal conditions you do not have to have the material...Dude MME specifically says you have to use the nail to break the ball, spellcasting says you have to have a free hand, and spellcasting says that material components must be attended by the caster.The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
By my reading of it the nail and the ball are the components, so I don't see why it can't be done in one hand. If you can handle a material component, and a focus then why not two material components?
You are adding things that are not there, by assuming you must use the nail in one hand to break the ball in the other hand.
Please cite some rules.
Anzyr: you added rules to Contact Other Plane and to Moment of Prescience. Another poster added rules to Gate, to be fair. You have also mentioned casting spells in times that you couldn't.
I added nothing to Contact other Plane. I will concede that Initiative is not an opposed Dexterity check. However, I did not add anything to Moment of Prescience's language to make that claim. I have also never mentioned casting spells at time that I couldn't. Those are some pretty false claims there, please be more careful in the future.
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Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?I was using one I brought with me on the premise that actions can be readied out of combat. The debate could be solved simply by casting Summon Monster IX while in the Time Stop, as Summoned Monsters can act immediately. Thus a summoned Nalfeshnee can cast Greater Dispel Magic on my turn and trigger the runes once the Time Stop effect ends.
It does not matter. Explosive Runes cannot harm a 10th tier mythic character with Absorb Blow and fire resistance.
It does not matter. Explosive Runes cannot harm a 10th tier mythic character with Absorb Blow and fire resistance.Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?I was using one I brought with me on the premise that actions can be readied out of combat. The debate could be solved simply by casting Summon Monster IX while in the Time Stop, as Summoned Monsters can act immediately. Thus a summoned Nalfeshnee can cast Greater Dispel Magic on my turn and trigger the runes once the Time Stop effect ends.
Each Explosive Rune is a separate souse so Absorb Blow will not help. Also Explosive Runes does Force damage, so I have no idea what Fire resistance is supposed to do.
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It does not matter. Explosive Runes cannot harm a 10th tier mythic character with Absorb Blow and fire resistance.Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?I was using one I brought with me on the premise that actions can be readied out of combat. The debate could be solved simply by casting Summon Monster IX while in the Time Stop, as Summoned Monsters can act immediately. Thus a summoned Nalfeshnee can cast Greater Dispel Magic on my turn and trigger the runes once the Time Stop effect ends.
It's force damage.
Well I like to point out that I did stat up a wizard with a running gold expended count.
I posit 3 forms of victory:
1. Win a duel: opponent is dead, can't continue, conceded, or fled.
2. Ends the existence of opponent: Perma win.
3. First to die: I don't agree with this measure, but some people seem to favor this one.
Now that wizard lost the first duel against any fighter that found a counter to the first tactic. The only listed fighter example turned ethereal.
Now for duel 2.
Wizard is going to add STAFF OF ABJURATION 82K to his inventory.
Tactic: Gate in Simulacrums of self that cost an effective 10K (can't half the cost)
Simulacrums will spam magic missile at medium range to kill the fighter.
We shall use 50 lvl 10 simulacrums, they will have fly, greater invisibility, Dimension door, teleport, invisibility, and magic missile (fill remaining slots) prepared in their slots. They will cast fly, then greater invisibility, then dimension door after a Gate is opened. So they start spamming magic missile on round 4. Once out of magic missile they will teleport away.
Main wizards plan:
Preps Time stop twice, gate 4 times, wall of force 3 times, teleport once, greater teleport once, greater invisibility twice, invisibility twice, windwall once, and mindblank.
Duel starts at great range like last time. Initiative order does not matter.
Maximise Time stop
Round 1 Teleport near fighter (800ft)
Round 2 Greater invisibility
Round 3 Mind Blank
Round 4 Wind wall in front of gate
Round 5 Open Gate (800ft from fighter) to demi plane made through Shades some time ago (not today) that is holding your simulacrums
After time stop fighter sees gate and the army begins to act as previously mentioned.
Once army is out of Gate the main wizard is free to dispel any shield spell the fighter might cast on himself
If fighter is not careful he takes 250d4+250 every round once army is in position.
If fighter puts himself in AMF, then wizards performs tactic 1 and the fighter cannot turn ethereal to get away.
On the other hand, I don't think I'd allow the wizard to arbitrarily switch between considering the item(s) with the runes to be one object or several from one instant to the next, based on which ever one is most helpful either.
Good thing he's placing the runes while is time is stopped in a Maximized Time Stop then hey?
How does a mythic fighter actually kill a wizard? Wouldn't you have contingency to protect you? Not to mention that wizards have more than one body after a certain level. I feel like this would lead to a stalemate.The refusal of the "wizurds always win!!!" crowd to provide stats means that their contingency is undefined. As wizurds only get a sole contingency, having it be undefined is equivalent to not having one at all. Likewise, unless clones are defined in the non-existent build, they don't exist. In fact, since none of the wizurd's prepared spells are defined, he has no spells prepared. This is unsurprising, since a refusal to nail down even the comtents of a spellbook mean that the wizard doesn't actually have any spells that can be prepared.
I realize your being funny... I guess, but how do you go about determining how many spells he should have in his spell book? No wizard is going to sit on the spells they are allotted from levels and not learn more.
Giving you a list prepared doesn't help you because wizards can just change that if they can remove themselves from the immediate threat.
In short, there are issues with the assumptions your making.
Another poster added rules to Gate
Eh. You can hold the gate open. It seems to imply unrestricted travel in both directions.
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On the other hand, I don't think I'd allow the wizard to arbitrarily switch between considering the item(s) with the runes to be one object or several from one instant to the next, based on which ever one is most helpful either.Good thing he's placing the runes while is time is stopped in a Maximized Time Stop then hey?
Yep. For five rounds. One of which is spent teleporting and another is spent summoning a nalfeshnee, leaving three left. By my count, that leaves you with three move actions to grab and item and three standard actions to place it. Are three runes really going to kill the fighter? I rather doubt it.