So, say I have a bloodrager, draconic level 16. I rage, go into FotD with my 6 natural attacks. I cast Frostbite, because I did not grab pounce.
Next round, somebody strays too close. I smack that somebody or something 6 times. Do I add 1d6 + 16 to all attacks that hit or only one?
I would say all, but at 16 charges, say 5 attacks hitting that would do an average of 97.5 damage. For three rounds. This seems... Excessive?
This works, just remember that the extra damage from the Frostbite spell is nonlethal.
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This is not true. Holding the charge is in no way restricted to a single hand.The problem with Frostbite and natural attacks is that you can keep the charge, but charge remains in 1x hand/claw so only one such limb would profit from the Frostbite damage. If you have 6 natural attacks, only one will probably receive this additional damage.
Adam
You can't "shuffle" charge from one hand to another, so yeah, it's restricted to one hand that you plan to use to deliver the touch spell. You can't deliver spell with just about any limb.
You can't "shuffle" charge from one hand to another, so yeah, it's restricted to one hand that you plan to use to deliver the touch spell. You can't deliver spell with just about any limb.This is not true. Holding the charge is in no way restricted to a single hand.The problem with Frostbite and natural attacks is that you can keep the charge, but charge remains in 1x hand/claw so only one such limb would profit from the Frostbite damage. If you have 6 natural attacks, only one will probably receive this additional damage.
Adam
Citation, please.
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You can't "shuffle" charge from one hand to another, so yeah, it's restricted to one hand that you plan to use to deliver the touch spell. You can't deliver spell with just about any limb.This is not true. Holding the charge is in no way restricted to a single hand.The problem with Frostbite and natural attacks is that you can keep the charge, but charge remains in 1x hand/claw so only one such limb would profit from the Frostbite damage. If you have 6 natural attacks, only one will probably receive this additional damage.
Adam
Citation, please.
I don't have one. It seemed logical to me at least. Searched a bit under Magic and Combat section but couldn't find anything about so far.
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You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Closest thing I could find was the Magus Spellstrike/Spell Combat FAQs for Ultimate Magic.
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
Since it is the only thing that references, in any way, a specific hand, even though the mention is more generic than anything else.
Yes. For example, if you cast chill touch (which allows multiple touch attacks), you could use spellstrike to cast and deliver the spell through your weapon, and in later weapon attacks you could use your weapon to deliver the remaining spell touch attacks (one spell touch attack per weapon attack).If you have multiple attacks per round with that weapon (such as from having a BAB of +6 or higher), you can use the weapon to deliver multiple spell touch attacks per round, so long as you have uses of that spell touch attack remaining.
For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1) and you cast chill touch, you have up to 8 uses of that spell touch attack. If you make two weapon attacks in a round, you can deliver two spell touch attacks per round (one for each successful weapon attack).
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By the way, I was just pulling all the references I could find to touch attacks and weapon/natural attacks, together. My own opinion is that the rules support delivering one touch of Chill Touch/Frostvbite per attack that hits, until the duration expires or all touches given byu the spell are used up.
Also, the OP was talking about at level 16. A 16th level Barbarian, without any significant optimization, could be doing:
Str 16 (base) +2 (racial) +4 (level) +4 (belt) +4 (Rage) = Str 30, +10, +15 2H
+3 Greatsword: 2d6+3
Power Attack: -4/+8/+12 2H
4 attacks, without Haste
2d6+3+15+12 = 2d6 (7) + 30, so 37 average per attack
If all 4 hit, that would average 148 points of damage per round.
+16 BAB, +10 Str, +3 enhancement, +1 WF, -4 PA, so +26/+21/+16/+11 for the to hit sequence.
And, at that level, the Barbarian can Rage for a lot more than just three rounds.
Add Haste, for another attack, and another +1 to hit.
Bless for another +1 to hit
Bardic Inspire Courage, if available, adds +4 to hit and damage, I think?
Yeah, 97.5 is a nice amount, but easily outshone, especially since that is 6 attacks against DR, compared to the Barbarian's 4 attacks vs DR...
And that is against a thrown together, not seriously optimized Barbarian...
Add Rage powers, additional magic items, appropriate feats....
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Kinevon, good job on finding the stuff.
It's usually just everywhere that it's hard to find it.
So to sum it up, magus in above example can use multiple attacks and deliver the spell (chill touch in the example), but he is using the same limb/weapon all the time with a specific hand.
There was numerous topics before about Frostbite spell and there was billion arguments for each side. I can only speak from RAI point of view which I should have probably clarified before, that I doubt that developers wanted bloodrager in the above example doing almost double damage with level 1 Frostbite spell. Making natural attack do deliver touch spell is fine, but I doubt that you can deliver it through Gore, Bite, Hoof, etc. attack besides hands/claws. Why? Because it doesn't make sense really. At least not to me. Monk would technically be able to do it though, since he can deliver unarmed strike with any part of his body but how would he retain Frostbite spell is another question.
Adam
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Kinevon, good job on finding the stuff.
It's usually just everywhere that it's hard to find it.
So to sum it up, magus in above example can use multiple attacks and deliver the spell (chill touch in the example), but he is using the same limb/weapon all the time with a specific hand.
There was numerous topics before about Frostbite spell and there was billion arguments for each side. I can only speak from RAI point of view which I should have probably clarified before, that I doubt that developers wanted bloodrager in the above example doing almost double damage with level 1 Frostbite spell. Making natural attack do deliver touch spell is fine, but I doubt that you can deliver it through Gore, Bite, Hoof, etc. attack besides hands/claws. Why? Because it doesn't make sense really. At least not to me. Monk would technically be able to do it though, since he can deliver unarmed strike with any part of his body but how would he retain Frostbite spell is another question.
Adam
Adam,
The Spellstrike bit is based off the requirements of Spellstrike, not that it is a touch attack, but that Spellstrike allows the Magus to deliver the touch attack as a normal weapon attack.
Indeed, if I am understanding the FAQ correctly, you could have the following sequence:
Magus uses Spell Combat to cast Frostbote (8th level, so 8 touchs)
Magus uses Spellstrike to deliver the first attack, the free attack, via his scimitar.
Magus ses Spellstrike to deliver two more touches using his normal melee scimitar attacks (assuming +6/+1 BAB)
Enemy uses Greater Disarm to send the Magus's scimitar flying.
Magus draws his backup scimitar, then delivers a single attack to his opponent, still including Frostbite via Spellstrike.
Continue as normal.
Well,my reasoning was based on the "if you Touch anything the spell discharges " part.
Technically, every connecting natural attack constitutes a touch, though made against normal ac and not touch ac.
Yes, it is nonlethal damage. Yes, a normal barbarian could do a lot of lethal damage in the same round.
Yet, a 16th level Rageshaper bloodrager with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Raging Brutality, a +2 furious courageous aomf and Touch of Rage (Eldritch Heritage with oppertunistic gambler) and 46 strength could bring some serious pain.
Strength: 18+ 4 level + 6 form + 6 rage + 6 belt + 3 Courageous amulet + 6 EH=49.
Bite would be: 16 bab + 19 str + 4 amulet + 7 touch of Rage + 1 haste -5 PA=+42 (3d6 + 27 + 4 + 4+7 +6 +15)= ~73 damage per bite. Claws, wings and tail would hurt lesser (or be less accurate). But you'd look at an easy 250-300 damage across 7 attacks.
Now, that is fairly optimized. But even considering some misses, if your opponent survives a full -attack, the additional non -lethal damage would probably be enough to knock anything which survived out. Frostbite explained to affect all natural attacks is clearly a huge benefit for a measly level 1 spell.
So, I'd probably want my GM to NOT let it work that way. The + level in damage is just too good.
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Kinevon,
Yeah and that seems to be working as intended and fine. What troubles me in general that some people claim that you can full-round and deliver Frostbite with any natural attack whatsoever. I am not saying they are wrong, I am just saying it doesn't make sense to me much and rules don't support exactly anything here. The best answer is that it's pure table variation. There were so many topics about this before and I searched this answer for my druid character also and came to conclusion that it just wouldn't work.
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Rambear,
Exactly one of the main reasons what will happen if GM rules in that nonlethal damage is going through every natural attack. For lv 16 bloodrager, that's 19.5 additional nonlethal damage per hit and 117 nonlethal damage in total if all 6 attacks hit without even including regular damage from Str and other effects. Sure, an enemy could be immune or resistant to nonlethal damage, but that's abnormal damage output for lv 1 spell.
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Attacks are sequential, even natural attacks.
Holding the charge don't specify that you need to keep it in a specific hand and the magus example show that you can "move" it from the hand to the weapon to another weapon.
No action is specified to move a held charge, so we can assume (yes, assume, it is not a granted thing) that moving it is a no action.
If we take that in account we can assume that each attack can deliver a charge, if you have multiple charges.
Held charges for spells with multiple touches are a gray area. The rules don't address them clearly.
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Kinevon,
Yeah and that seems to be working as intended and fine. What troubles me in general that some people claim that you can full-round and deliver Frostbite with any natural attack whatsoever. I am not saying they are wrong, I am just saying it doesn't make sense to me much and rules don't support exactly anything here. The best answer is that it's pure table variation. There were so many topics about this before and I searched this answer for my druid character also and came to conclusion that it just wouldn't work.
The problem with that is that you are actually going aginst the rules, since you would be allowing them to say, "I have the charge in my left hand. So I can slap the ogre silly with my right hand without discharging my CLW."
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The problem with that is that you are actually going aginst the rules, since you would be allowing them to say, "I have the charge in my left hand. So I can slap the ogre silly with my right hand without discharging my CLW."
To be honest, I am not sure what's wrong with that strictly RAI speaking. It works perfectly nice for everyone, but RAW, I realize that you are pointing out at the "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." text. If you are holding the charge in single hand, you almost cannot discharge it unintentionally because you know where it is. How can you not discharge spell if it's everywhere on your body?
Attacks are sequential, even natural attacks.
Holding the charge don't specify that you need to keep it in a specific hand and the magus example show that you can "move" it from the hand to the weapon to another weapon.
The magus example shows that you can "move" it from the hand to the weapon to another weapon… if you have the spellstrike ability.
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The magus example shows that you can "move" it from the hand to the weapon to another weapon… if you have the spellstrike ability.Attacks are sequential, even natural attacks.
Holding the charge don't specify that you need to keep it in a specific hand and the magus example show that you can "move" it from the hand to the weapon to another weapon.
Before that FAQ there wasn't any question at all as the charge was stored in each one of your appendages.
With that FAQ it has been moved to a specific appendage at a time, but nowhere it say that you have to specify what appendage and that it is a fixed location.