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No, not there, the citation there is the one I made, with natural fly speed in it. the bonus isn't applied if you fly with a supernatural ability or a spell.
Check what you linked and you will see it.Her Fly skill does include the +8 bonus for her maneuverability, but it also includes the -5 armor check penalty for her armor.Rob - regarding the ghost on page 43 - should they have an additional +8 on the flight skill for having (perfect) flight?
I'm unsure if the ghosts flight ability would be considered natural - based on the stat block it's not - but I was wondering if you would comment on that.
I quote a Dev here for one reason - the ghost template doesn't give a 'natural' fly speed - it just gives fly (perfect).
Yet the devs add the bonus into the creatures stat blocks.
Apparently when a maneuverability rating is listed it is for a 'natural' fly speed.
At least that's how the Dev's do it.
The Dev as done it right, you are interpreting it wrong.
Speed: Ghosts lose their previous speeds and gain a fly speed of 30 feet (perfect), unless the base creature has a higher fly speed.
The creature gain a fly speed, i.e. it has a fly speed. That is a natural fly speed, as all the movement types in a creature stat block.
A creature that get the supernatural ability to fly for 10 minutes 3 times in a day or that can cast the fly sped don't get a natural fly speed, it get the effect of a supernatural ability.
"Natural" has nothing to do with natural things in the real world. A natural fly speed is a fly speed that is an innate part of a creature and cannot be removed, dispelled, or otherwise taken away (without an anti-magic field, because some flight is SU). A ghost totally has a natural fly speed. A creature that casts overland flight/fly does not. A creature with an item that casts fly/overland flight does not. A creature with continuous fly does not.
This!
As an example a witch with the Fly hex has a supernatural ability that allow her to fly, but it is not a natural fly speed, as it isn't added to her forms of movement.
A druid shapechanged in a bird has a natural fly as the polymorph rules say: "In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses." and the beast shape I spell say: "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, [b]fly 30 feet[b] (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent." I.e. you get the creature movement type.
"Natural" has nothing to do with natural things in the real world. A natural fly speed is a fly speed that is an innate part of a creature and cannot be removed, dispelled, or otherwise taken away (without an anti-magic field, because some flight is SU). A ghost totally has a natural fly speed. A creature that casts overland flight/fly does not. A creature with an item that casts fly/overland flight does not. A creature with continuous fly does not.
Actually ghost flight isn't 'natural' it's acquired.
“Ghost” is an acquired template that can be added to any
living creature that has a Charisma score of at least 6. A
ghost retains all the base creature’s statistics and special
abilities except as noted here.
You can't use your own rationalization (even if it's good) when discussing rules after all that would lead you to asking what use listing maneuverability is when the only use it has in game is a bonus or penalty on fly checks.
Either the word 'natural' was a mistake or the reference to good maneuverability in the Fly spell was a mistake. We have no way of knowing which. FAQ it and move on.
A creature that get the supernatural ability to fly for 10 minutes 3 times in a day or that can cast the fly sped don't get a natural fly speed, it get the effect of a supernatural ability."Natural" has nothing to do with natural things in the real world. A natural fly speed is a fly speed that is an innate part of a creature and cannot be removed, dispelled, or otherwise taken away (without an anti-magic field, because some flight is SU). A ghost totally has a natural fly speed. A creature that casts overland flight/fly does not. A creature with an item that casts...
Actually you are wrong. Pathfinder *edit* has the definition of what's 'natural'.
Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
Extraordinary Abilities: These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
So the for a creature like the Yeth Hound - which is supernatural flight - and still has the maneuver bonus.
Again the Devs uses the listed flight rating when giving bonuses - 'natural' or not - as they are consistent about it - I'd say the mistake is in the 'flight' writeup - not the many other places the bonus (or penalty) is used.
(edited because I'm only on my first cup of coffee - sorry)
Either the word 'natural' was a mistake or the reference to good maneuverability in the Fly spell was a mistake. We have no way of knowing which. FAQ it and move on.
The word natural isn't a mistake.
But some specific abilities give maneuverability and all that goes with it. These abilities override the general idea that only natural fliers have a maneuverability.
No one is arguing that fly doesn't give good maneuverability. People are wondering if that maneuverability gives the bonuses that maneuverability does. At which point I am baffled at the debate.
Abilities do what they say they do. It is not hard.
Alright, please tell me how you unmake a ghost. I'll wait. Because if you can't separate "ghost" from the creature then it's now a part of the creature and counts as natural (well, as natural as anything in Pathfinder). Is there a way to undo templates? Can you unzombify someone without killing them and raising them from the dead? If not, that seems to argue that "zombie" is the new natural state for them. Just like "ghost" is the natural state of anyone with the ghost template applied.
If you insist on that definition of natural abilities, I have a problem for you to solve.
Flight (Ex, Sp, or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the creature has wings, flight is an extraordinary ability. Otherwise, it is spell-like or supernatural, and it is ineffective in an antimagic field; the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.You'll notice this defines flight as Ex, Sp, or Su. All winged flight is extraordinary. This means that Flight is never a natural ability. And yet we have an explicit restriction to "natural fly speed". The only possible conclusion is that we're expected to read "natural" in the plain english definition instead of the game definition. Which, as I said last time, is innate abilities not created by outside forces (magic, jetpacks, flying carpets).
A Qlippoth Cythnigot has a constant 'fly' spell-like ability and gets the bonus.
Spell-like abilities can be dispelled. They aren't (Ex) or (Su) - and yet it gets the maneuver bonus from an outside force.
There is no rules debate here. Just people that think they can ignore what an ability does.
Specifics override general. It is a key premise to the game, and makes this whole debate null and void.
There is no rules debate here.
I'm pretty sure there is.
By RAW, the Fly spell gives good maneuverability, and that does nothing at all because the bonus for good maneuverability only applies to natural flight. This RAW doesn't make much sense, so we have to use speculation to work out what was intended. Maybe 'its maneuverability is good' is flavor text for the Fly spell and not meant to refer to the game term Maneuverability: Good. Maybe magical flight is considered 'natural' in the Pathfinder universe. Maybe one of them was a copy-paste error. We have no way of knowing for sure.
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Rob - regarding the ghost on page 43 - should they have an additional +8 on the flight skill for having (perfect) flight?
I'm unsure if the ghosts flight ability would be considered natural - based on the stat block it's not - but I was wondering if you would comment on that.
Her Fly skill does include the +8 bonus for her maneuverability, but it also includes the -5 armor check penalty for her armor.
I quote a Dev here for one reason - the ghost template doesn't give a 'natural' fly speed - it just gives fly (perfect).
Yet the devs add the bonus into the creatures stat blocks.
Apparently when a maneuverability rating is listed it is for a 'natural' fly speed.
At least that's how the Dev's do it.
The ghost's flight is a natural fly speed, since it's a permanent movement mode that one gains from becoming a ghost. It's not gained from casting a spell or using a spell-in-a-can item.
Rob didn't explicitly answer the question that was being asked; an explicit answer would have been "Yes, a ghost's flight is a natural fly speed.".
Instead he implies this is the case, by explaining the math behind the final bonus, and confirming that they gave the sample ghost the +8 bonus she would be expected to get from having a natural fly speed.
And from that, we would deduce that ghost flight gives a natural fly speed.
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There is no rules debate here.I'm pretty sure there is.
By RAW, the Fly spell gives good maneuverability, and that does nothing at all because the bonus for good maneuverability only applies to natural flight. This RAW doesn't make much sense, so we have to use speculation to work out what was intended. Maybe 'its maneuverability is good' is flavor text for the Fly spell and not meant to refer to the game term Maneuverability: Good. Maybe magical flight is considered 'natural' in the Pathfinder universe. Maybe one of them was a copy-paste error. We have no way of knowing for sure.
This pretty much sums up all the ways to read it. I play with the "copy-paste error" reading, but I freely admit that it's just as viable to read it differently.
Pre-Pathfinder, maneuverability classes determined whether you could hover, how much you could turn, and other things that are now governed by a Fly check. I think somewhere when they were making the changes from 3.5e, they decided to fold all that into the Fly skill and make maneuverability give a bonus to that skill. Thus I think the reference in the fly spell is an artifact from 3.5, and the spell's Fly bonus from CL is meant to be your maneuverability bonus.
But hey, I could be wrong. That's just how my local groups have played it.
The really important question isn't whether or not you get a +4 for good maneuverability with the fly spell. That's significant, but it's not the main problem.
The main problem is: what happens when you fail a fly check?
The only thing the rules specify is when you're using wings and fail by 5 or more. We never learn what happens if you fail by 1 to 4 using wings, or when you fail by any amount when not using wings, as with the fly spell.
Common sense would suggest that if you fail to fly, you are no longer flying, so you fall. And yet that result is limited to using wings and failing by 5 or more.
In the absence of any official ruling of any sort in the however many years that Pathfinder has existed, a DM must houserule the situation. No way out of it.
I would suggest that anyone failing a fly check would go into an uncontrolled descent, and go straight ahead at half speed, descending at a 45 degree angle, lose all actions for the round, and if you hit the ground during that time make a DC20 acrobatics check to avoid taking half damage for falling (1d6 per 20 feet). Or, if you are still airborne, you'd get a new fly check next round.
This seems like a reasonable house rule to me, but hey, YMMV.
In the absence of RAW, a house rule is the only possible answer. What do y'all suggest?
You know, none of you guys would be using this logic if an ability gave you a clumsy maneuverability, thus ignoring the penalty.
If you wouldn't go through these mental gymnastics for a benefit, then you shouldn't be doing it to ignore a bonus.
RAW, the Fly spell gives good maneuverability, and that does nothing at all because the bonus for good maneuverability only applies to natural flight.
That isn't true at all. You are applying a general rule to take precedence over a specific ability.
That is not how the game works.
You are not being "good at the rules". You are going out of your way to not understand them and create contradictions where there are none.
The really important question isn't whether or not you get a +4 for good maneuverability with the fly spell. That's significant, but it's not the main problem.
The main problem is: what happens when you fail a fly check?
The only thing the rules specify is when you're using wings and fail by 5 or more. We never learn what happens if you fail by 1 to 4 using wings, or when you fail by any amount when not using wings, as with the fly spell.
Common sense would suggest that if you fail to fly, you are no longer flying, so you fall. And yet that result is limited to using wings and failing by 5 or more.
In the absence of any official ruling of any sort in the however many years that Pathfinder has existed, a DM must houserule the situation. No way out of it.
I would suggest that anyone failing a fly check would go into an uncontrolled descent, and go straight ahead at half speed, descending at a 45 degree angle, lose all actions for the round, and if you hit the ground during that time make a DC20 acrobatics check to avoid taking half damage for falling (1d6 per 20 feet). Or, if you are still airborne, you'd get a new fly check next round.
This seems like a reasonable house rule to me, but hey, YMMV.
In the absence of RAW, a house rule is the only possible answer. What do y'all suggest?
If you fail a fly check, you cannot do the maneuver.
Fly checks do not consume actions.So if you have magical flight and fail a fly check then you can't do that maneuver but still have your actions.
Because it says right in the skill that taking those actions requires a fly check, if you didn't pass them, you can't take that action.
If you try to hover, but fail. That means you can't hover. If you don't move before the end of your turn, then you fall because you stopped flying. Not because you have wings, not because you failed a check. You fall because you stopped flying.
No house rules. No questionable RAW. It is all right there in the skill.
The ghost's flight is a natural fly speed, since it's a permanent movement mode that one gains from becoming a ghost. It's not gained from casting a spell or using a spell-in-a-can item.
Rob didn't explicitly answer the question that was being asked; an explicit answer would have been "Yes, a ghost's flight is a natural fly speed.".
Instead he implies this is the case, by explaining the math behind the final bonus, and confirming that they gave the sample ghost the +8 bonus she would be expected to get from having a natural fly speed.
And from that, we would deduce that ghost flight gives a natural fly speed.
That ignores my second example.
A Qlippoth Cythnigot has a constant 'fly' spell-like ability and gets the bonus.
Spell-like abilities can be dispelled. They aren't (Ex) or (Su) - and yet it gets the maneuver bonus from an outside force.
There are many more - I'll keep trotting them out because from my (admittedly non-exhaustive) research the Paizo dev's have been consistent with how it's used. Which is opposite of what you are saying.
You'll note this is in 'general' so RAI is exactly what we are talking about here.
You know your argument has issues when it depends on ghost being natural or possessing some natural ability.
Because ghost are not natural. They are supernatural.
Words...
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
From this reference it does not look like a creature that flies without a natural fly speed gets these bonuses or penalties on its fly check for maneuverability unless there is something else that says they do.
Is there any general description of maneuverability besides the listing in the fly skill?
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If you fail a fly check, you cannot do the maneuver.
Fly checks do not consume actions.
So if you have magical flight and fail a fly check then you can't do that maneuver but still have your actions.
So what happens? You can't do the maneuver, so you fly straight ahead at half speed?
If you're attempting a maneuver, it means you're moving, so you're using a move action. You would have to lose that move action, at the very least, spending it on a non-intentional fly move.Because it says right in the skill that taking those actions requires a fly check, if you didn't pass them, you can't take that action.
If you try to hover, but fail. That means you can't hover. If you don't move before the end of your turn, then you fall because you stopped flying. Not because you have wings, not because you failed a check. You fall because you stopped flying.
Why would this necessarily be different from other types of maneuvers you might attempt that require a fly skill check? I mean, conceptually I totally agree with falling if you fail to hover. But I don't really see why this case is different from other maneuvers. You could say the same about any maneuver. "You failed a check, so you are no longer flying and fall because you stopped flying."
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The ghost's flight is a natural fly speed, since it's a permanent movement mode that one gains from becoming a ghost. It's not gained from casting a spell or using a spell-in-a-can item.
Rob didn't explicitly answer the question that was being asked; an explicit answer would have been "Yes, a ghost's flight is a natural fly speed.".
Instead he implies this is the case, by explaining the math behind the final bonus, and confirming that they gave the sample ghost the +8 bonus she would be expected to get from having a natural fly speed.
And from that, we would deduce that ghost flight gives a natural fly speed.That ignores my second example.
A Qlippoth Cythnigot has a constant 'fly' spell-like ability and gets the bonus.
Spell-like abilities can be dispelled. They aren't (Ex) or (Su) - and yet it gets the maneuver bonus from an outside force.
There are many more - I'll keep trotting them out because from my (admittedly non-exhaustive) research the Paizo dev's have been consistent with how it's used. Which is opposite of what you are saying.
You'll note this is in 'general' so RAI is exactly what we are talking about here.
This particular outsider was written up wrong in the numerical department. It's only 3 HD, so the max fly bonus it should have, even IF it had a completely natural fly speed, would be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Dex) + 4 (maneuverability) + 3 (1/2 level SLA, just because) = +14. That's one point short of the +15 they put in there. So, yes, the devs screwed up. SKR once jumped into a rules thread and explained that the planetar out of the first bestiary had it's spells/day as a cleric done wrong. Mistakes happen.
EDIT: it's possible the devs intend for constant SLAs to be considered a 'natural' part of a creature's abilities. It would explain why we see under true seeing under a balor's 'Senses' area and unholy aura in the 'Aura' area of its stat block when those things can be turned off or dispelled. That kind of thinking would explain the qlippoth's fly check being nearly correct.
Why would this necessarily be different from other types of maneuvers you might attempt that require a fly skill check? I mean, conceptually I totally agree with falling if you fail to hover. But I don't really see why this case is different from other maneuvers. You could say the same about any maneuver. "You failed a check, so you are no longer flying and fall because you stopped flying."
I did not say you fell because you failed the check.
You fall because you did not take any fly actions.
You can fail to hover by 4 or less, then take a normal fly maneuver and be just fine. If you don't have wings you can fail to fly by 5 or more to hover, then move and be just fine. If you don't perform a simple or complex fly maneuver during your turn, you stop flying because you did not fly during your turn.
You do not lose actions from failed fly checks. The skill says you are not even aloud to take the action if you don't make the check.
If we could all stop trying to force "what makes sense" or "how we feel" onto the fly skill, then the words it says become a lot more clearer.
The ghost's flight is a natural fly speed, since it's a permanent movement mode that one gains from becoming a ghost. It's not gained from casting a spell or using a spell-in-a-can item.
Rob didn't explicitly answer the question that was being asked; an explicit answer would have been "Yes, a ghost's flight is a natural fly speed.".
Instead he implies this is the case, by explaining the math behind the final bonus, and confirming that they gave the sample ghost the +8 bonus she would be expected to get from having a natural fly speed.
And from that, we would deduce that ghost flight gives a natural fly speed.That ignores my second example.
A Qlippoth Cythnigot has a constant 'fly' spell-like ability and gets the bonus.
Spell-like abilities can be dispelled. They aren't (Ex) or (Su) - and yet it gets the maneuver bonus from an outside force.
There are many more - I'll keep trotting them out because from my (admittedly non-exhaustive) research the Paizo dev's have been consistent with how it's used. Which is opposite of what you are saying.
You'll note this is in 'general' so RAI is exactly what we are talking about here.
This particular outsider was written up wrong in the numerical department. It's only 3 HD, so the max fly bonus it should have, even IF it had a completely natural fly speed, would be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Dex) + 4 (maneuverability) + 3 (1/2 level SLA, just because) = +14. That's one point short of the +15 they put in there. So, yes, the devs screwed up. SKR once jumped into a rules thread and explained that the planetar out of the first bestiary had it's spells/day as a cleric done wrong. Mistakes happen.
EDIT: it's possible the devs intend for constant SLAs to be considered a 'natural' part of a creature's abilities. It would explain why we see under true seeing under a balor's 'Senses' area and unholy aura in the 'Aura' area of its stat block when those things can be...
Size bonus... Mr. the numbers are wrong
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
EDIT: They don't get the class bonus because their fly is not natural.
EDIT2: That should be undeniable proof the (good) maneuverability from the spell is both not natural and gives a bonus.
Size bonus... Mr. the numbers are wrong
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
EDIT: They don't get the class bonus because their fly is not natural.
EDIT2: That should be undeniable proof the (good) maneuverability from the spell is both not natural and gives a bonus.
Okay, my bad, forgot size bonuses, though you're incorrect to discount class skills. Each type of outsider gets 4 additional class skills. In this particular qlippoth's case, those are apparently Acrobatics, Fly, and Knowledge(nature). So, if your suppositions are correct, it's fly check should be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Dex) + 4 (size) + 4 (maneuverability) + 3 (SLA) = +18. Even going with minimum of 1 rank, it would still be +16. The only way to arrive at +15 is to remove 3 from the class skill bonus (which, as I've just stated, applies; do the math for 3 ranks in their other skills and you'll see) or the SLA bonus. The fact that this is a constant SLA seems to support my earlier supposition that such abilities are considered 'natural' and therefore do give the maneuverability bonus...but not anything from effective caster level. That or, again, the devs screwed up.
Okay, my bad, forgot size bonuses, though you're incorrect to discount class skills. Each type of outsider gets 4 additional class skills. In this particular qlippoth's case, those are apparently Acrobatics, Fly, and Knowledge(nature). So, if your suppositions are correct, it's fly check should be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Dex) + 4 (size) + 4 (maneuverability) + 3 (SLA) = +18. Even going with minimum of 1 rank, it would still be +16. The only way to arrive at +15 is to remove 3 from the class skill bonus (which, as I've just stated, applies; do the math for 3 ranks in their other skills and you'll see)) or the SLA bonus. The fact that this is a constant SLA seems to support my earlier supposition that such abilities are considered 'natural' and therefore do give the maneuverability bonus...but not anything from effective caster level. That or, again, the devs screwed up.Size bonus... Mr. the numbers are wrong
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
EDIT: They don't get the class bonus because their fly is not natural.
EDIT2: That should be undeniable proof the (good) maneuverability from the spell is both not natural and gives a bonus.
Or.
OR!
Fly is not a class skill.
Cause they don't have to have fly as a class skill. Because even if you say they treat fly as a class skill, then they only treat 3 additional skills as class skills not four. So there is no reason they could not just do two instead.
At this point your argument has broken down to, "the devs are wrong because I am right!". Not that this was ever a rules debate.
Or.
OR!
Fly is not a class skill.
Cause they don't have to have fly as a class skill. Because even if you say they treat fly as a class skill, then they only treat 3 additional skills as class skills not four. So there is no reason they could not just do two instead.
At this point your argument has broken down to, "the devs are wrong because I am right!". Not that this was ever a rules debate.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Not up to four, not just sometimes, they just always get that many additional class skills. I suppose they could just assign two of those class skills to entirely different skills. Skills which the creature doesn't actually use, it appears. That would be silly, but I'm not willing to rule it out.
I suppose they could just assign two of those class skills to entirely different skills. Skills which the creature doesn't actually use, it appears. That would be silly, but I'm not willing to rule it out.
It has to happen at least once.
That outsider only has 3 skills that could qualify as additional.
If it can happen once. It can happen twice.
Ok then...
The Neothelid also has fly as a constant SLA - and uses the modifier - I realize it's final skill is -4 but...
-2 Dex -6 (size) +4 (maneuver bonus from fly spell) = -4
It's other skills take all 140 of it's skill points so the result is a 0 in the fly skill - just like printed.
Ok then...
The Neothelid also has fly as a constant SLA - and uses the modifier - I realize it's final skill is -4 but...
-2 Dex -6 (size) +4 (maneuver bonus from fly spell) = -4
It's other skills take all 140 of it's skill points so the result is a 0 in the fly skill - just like printed.
I was wondering if there were any other creatures that had fly as a SLA. Looks like no 1/2 caster level bonus to the skill check, either.
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RAW, the Fly spell gives good maneuverability, and that does nothing at all because the bonus for good maneuverability only applies to natural flight.That isn't true at all. You are applying a general rule to take precedence over a specific ability.
That is not how the game works.
You are not being "good at the rules". You are going out of your way to not understand them and create contradictions where there are none.
Maybe you have missed it the few times it has been pointed out, but the Fly spell specific rule [b]don't[b] say that it change the general rule.
It only say that fly give a specific maneuverability, not that you get to use that maneuverability bonus to the check it even if you don't have a natural fly speed.
Without that exception there is no "specific rule to override the general rule".
Neothelid is -2 Dex, -6 Size, +10 spell... and now we're positive and it doesn't work. So I think I'll go with "devs are human and make mistakes sometimes", as this one has a major error in the calculation.
And I'll confess, continuous SLAs may have been intended to be considered as "natural". I didn't notice until actually looking it up that the universal monster ability Flight includes Sp as one of the valid types.
No they are -2 Dex, -6 Size (this is -8) spell (good) +4 for a total of -4
which is exactly what they are listed at in the PRD.
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OK, so under what justification would the 1/2 CL bonus not be added.
Unless the constant effect is assumed to have a CL of 0.
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The ghost's flight is a natural fly speed, since it's a permanent movement mode that one gains from becoming a ghost. It's not gained from casting a spell or using a spell-in-a-can item.
Rob didn't explicitly answer the question that was being asked; an explicit answer would have been "Yes, a ghost's flight is a natural fly speed.".
Instead he implies this is the case, by explaining the math behind the final bonus, and confirming that they gave the sample ghost the +8 bonus she would be expected to get from having a natural fly speed.
And from that, we would deduce that ghost flight gives a natural fly speed.That ignores my second example.
A Qlippoth Cythnigot has a constant 'fly' spell-like ability and gets the bonus.
Spell-like abilities can be dispelled. They aren't (Ex) or (Su) - and yet it gets the maneuver bonus from an outside force.
There are many more - I'll keep trotting them out because from my (admittedly non-exhaustive) research the Paizo dev's have been consistent with how it's used. Which is opposite of what you are saying.
You'll note this is in 'general' so RAI is exactly what we are talking about here.
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th, concentration +4)Constant—detect law, detect magic, fly
Skills Fly +15
hp 16 (3d10)
Dex 12
Let's see: Class skill +3, maximum rank, +3, tiny +4, fly spell, cl 6 +3, dex +1 = +14
So it get the bonus for good maneuverability but lose the bonus for the caster level of the fly spell.
Whatever way you look it, it is wrong.
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This particular outsider was written up wrong in the numerical department. It's only 3 HD, so the max fly bonus it should have, even IF it had a completely natural fly speed, would be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Dex) + 4 (maneuverability) + 3 (1/2 level SLA, just because) = +14. That's one point short of the +15 they put in there. So, yes, the devs screwed up. SKR once jumped into a rules thread and explained that the planetar out of the first bestiary had it's spells/day as a cleric done wrong. Mistakes happen.EDIT: it's possible the devs intend for constant SLAs to be considered a 'natural' part of a creature's abilities. It would explain why we see under true seeing under a balor's 'Senses' area and unholy aura in the 'Aura' area of its stat block when those things can be...
You missed the size bonus, it is applied to all kind of flight.
So the Cythnigot should have +18 if both the spell bonus and good maneuverability are applied or +14 if the good maneuverability don't apply.
Instead the math is consistent with a tiny creature, with maximized ranks and good maneuverability but no bonus for the Fly spell.
Whatever way you look it, it is wrong.
No it works just fine.
Either as:
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
or
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 class bonus + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
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Why would this necessarily be different from other types of maneuvers you might attempt that require a fly skill check? I mean, conceptually I totally agree with falling if you fail to hover. But I don't really see why this case is different from other maneuvers. You could say the same about any maneuver. "You failed a check, so you are no longer flying and fall because you stopped flying."I did not say you fell because you failed the check.
You fall because you did not take any fly actions.
You can fail to hover by 4 or less, then take a normal fly maneuver and be just fine. If you don't have wings you can fail to fly by 5 or more to hover, then move and be just fine. If you don't perform a simple or complex fly maneuver during your turn, you stop flying because you did not fly during your turn.
You do not lose actions from failed fly checks. The skill says you are not even aloud to take the action if you don't make the check.
If we could all stop trying to force "what makes sense" or "how we feel" onto the fly skill, then the words it says become a lot more clearer.
The problem is that you make the fly check to move at less than half of your speed at the end of your move.
So, to make an example: full attack when airborne, then I move 5' away. What happen?
What move I am making as I have no move left?
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature's caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
So I found a reason as to why monsters may not add 1/2 cl from the fly spell effect.
As it turns out monster SLA entries are not reliable ways to determine how spells work.
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Whatever way you look it, it is wrong.No it works just fine.
Either as:
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
or
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 class bonus + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
Outsiders have 4 class skill that they set as appropriate for the theme.
It is appropriate for the theme of an outsider with a constant Fly spell to have the fly skill as a class skill.As it is appropriate for wizard and sorcerers.
Our Cythnigot has 6 listed class skills,
Total skill ranks:
6*3= 18 (int 11, no bonus)
Acrobatic +7 skill rank used 3 (4 from class skill + dexterity=
Fly +15 skill rank used 3 (see above)
Knowledge (nature) +6 skill rank used 3 (class skill)
Knowledge (planes) +6 skill rank used 3 (class skill)
Perception +5 skill rank used 3 (class skill -1 for wis 8)
Stealth +15 skill rank used 3 (class skill, dex +1, tiny +8)
Exactly 18 ranks used.
Why would this necessarily be different from other types of maneuvers you might attempt that require a fly skill check? I mean, conceptually I totally agree with falling if you fail to hover. But I don't really see why this case is different from other maneuvers. You could say the same about any maneuver. "You failed a check, so you are no longer flying and fall because you stopped flying."I did not say you fell because you failed the check.
You fall because you did not take any fly actions.
You can fail to hover by 4 or less, then take a normal fly maneuver and be just fine. If you don't have wings you can fail to fly by 5 or more to hover, then move and be just fine. If you don't perform a simple or complex fly maneuver during your turn, you stop flying because you did not fly during your turn.
You do not lose actions from failed fly checks. The skill says you are not even aloud to take the action if you don't make the check.
If we could all stop trying to force "what makes sense" or "how we feel" onto the fly skill, then the words it says become a lot more clearer.The problem is that you make the fly check to move at less than half of your speed at the end of your move.
So, to make an example: full attack when airborne, then I move 5' away. What happen?
What move I am making as I have no move left?
You make the check before the 5ft step (DC 10) to see if you can 5ft step. (it is a complex fly maneuver)
If you fail the check you can't make that step. Since you did not fly that turn and have no actions to spend on flying, you fall at the end of your turn.
Whatever way you look it, it is wrong.No it works just fine.
Either as:
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
or
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 class bonus + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
Outsiders have 4 class skill that they set as appropriate for the theme.
It is appropriate for the theme of an outsider with a constant Fly spell to have the fly skill as a class skill.
As it is appropriate for wizard and sorcerers.Our Cythnigot has exactly 6 listed skills, the exact number of the class skills for an outsider.
You are assuming there. Either way that outsider only has 3 skills that would qualify as additional, so all 4 are not being used. Outsiders do not pick these skills the devs pick these skills.
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You are assuming there. Either way that outsider only has 3 skills that would qualify as additional, so all 4 are not being used. Outsiders do not pick these skills the devs pick these skills.Whatever way you look it, it is wrong.No it works just fine.
Either as:
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 (sla bonus) + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
or
4 (good maneuverability) + 4 size + 3 class bonus + 3 ranks + 1 dex = 15
Outsiders have 4 class skill that they set as appropriate for the theme.
It is appropriate for the theme of an outsider with a constant Fly spell to have the fly skill as a class skill.
As it is appropriate for wizard and sorcerers.Our Cythnigot has exactly 6 listed skills, the exact number of the class skills for an outsider.
No, I have done the math, differently from you:
Our Cythnigot has exactly 6 listed skills, the exact number of the class skills for an outsider. (wrong, they are much more, they have 4 free class skills)
Total skill ranks:
6*3= 18 (int 11, no bonus)
Acrobatic +7 skill rank used 3 (4 from class skill + dexterity=
Fly +15 skill rank used 3 (see above)
Knowledge (nature) +6 skill rank used 3 (class skill)
Knowledge (planes) +6 skill rank used 3 (class skill)
Perception +5 skill rank used 3 (class skill -1 for wis 8)
Stealth +15 skill rank used 3 (class skill, dex +1, tiny +8)
Exactly 18 ranks used and 6 class skills.
Edit
Outsiders:
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
So our guy has a an undetermined class skill, but it make no diffrence as hit hasn't put skills in it.
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Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature's caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default ...
So I found a reason as to why monsters may not add 1/2 cl from the fly spell effect.
As it turns out monster SLA entries are not reliable ways to determine how spells work.
I don't know how you get the conclusion from the premise.
We have the CL of the fly spell like ability
Fly give a bonus based on the caster level.
It is not relevant at all if the spell is taken from the wizard or Magus list. it is a fly spell with a caster level of 6.
So our guy has a an undetermined class skill, but it make no diffrence as hit hasn't put skills in it.
Or two
People have posted other examples though. It seems many monsters do not add the CL bonus to fly checks when it is a constant SLA.
EDIT: I cannot fathom as to why.
So our guy has a an undetermined class skill, but it make no diffrence as hit hasn't put skills in it.Or two
People have posted other examples though. It seems many monsters do not add the CL bonus to fly checks when it is a constant SLA.
EDIT: I cannot fathom as to why.
My guess is that it's crypto-zoological evolution used as a balancing mechanic in monster design. Some monsters can use magic. Some use it so often that the ability becomes inherent to their nature, aka spell-like abilities. And some of THOSE use a few SLAs so often that the effects require no effort, energy, or expense at all to keep going, i.e. constant SLAs. Those (usually) lower overall bonuses from maneuverability alone balance out the fact the fact that these aren't even at-will abilities, the monster always just has them up, even if they're caught unawares. This is a useful feature in a multi-verse where, when you're sleeping, demons may come and try to possess you, or adventurers may show up in your lair looking for a pay-day. Suddenly, that constant SLA seems like a pretty nice thing to not have to put up as your standard action in the first round of combat. So, because they're so used to having them up, these creatures count SLA fly as a natural means of flight, but at the expense of lacking the real strength a more powerful caster might have with the spell because, well, these creatures long ago stopped thinking really hard about flight and just do it.
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More likely it's an oversight error in their statblocks because the writers forgot.
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Too logical, Ashiel.
;-)
Well I figure it's an honest mistake and one that would be easily made. Alternatively, they might not have included the bonus on their fly skill because it's technically a temporary effect (albeit one that isn't from a practical standpoint).
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.
Too logical, Ashiel.
;-)Well I figure it's an honest mistake and one that would be easily made. Alternatively, they might not have included the bonus on their fly skill because it's technically a temporary effect (albeit one that isn't from a practical standpoint).
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.
So, can anyone verify this: one of the players in my game tonight said that potions of fly from PFS sources indicate that the maneuverability bonus AND the 1/2 CL bonus are spelled out in the item description. If that's the case, it's good enough for me to just say "Sure, they both apply, also Paizo need to clean up some of the language on this a bit".