Is hero lab allowed?


Pathfinder Society

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1/5

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Let me state this clearly, if I can't use HL, or something like it, I will not play Pathfinder at all and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The game is simply too interdependent and complex for me to spend the time and effort needed to plan out a character across 12 levels on paper without some sort of computer aid for the calculations. I own all the sources I use for my characters and am quite careful to double check that HL implements the basics of each character correctly. Anyone is always welcome to audit my characters but they will be awfully disappointed if they expect to send me away from a table.

Grand Lodge

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Where I play Pathfinder Society I'd say about half of the people use hero lab, and half don't. I'm part of the half that doesn't. Herolab charges extra for including sets of information (manuals) that I already paid a hefty sum to get in hard copy in most instances, and given it's electronic format is harder to quickly scroll through than it is to turn to a specific page. Doing it old-school with pen and paper also means I essentially audit my character every time they level up to track it through the entire thing. I don't just have the bonuses, I know exactly what each of them are. I have a borderline eidetic memory to recall the relevant rules for each character. Building a character, no matter what level, is an afternoon for me, including backstory.

I run a wildshape druid with an animal companion at most times, and I rarely take much more time than our archers or barbarians typically since I keep my common wildshapes bookmarked for ease of reference.

Running characters the old-fashioned way is just more reliable for me than putting my faith in what I've come to view as a (vastly) overpriced calculation program.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Folks, can we just stop using all those computers? They're basically overpriced calculators, and humanity did just fine without them for ages.


Uwotm8 wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
It makes you wonder how much money Nefreet has cost Paizo by driving people away from PFS and Pathfinder.
If things are as he says, then he's cost them nothing. They weren't buying Paizo's products anyway and were just using HeroLab.

He did not say he was turning people away for using Hero Lab as their rule source, he said he was turning people away for using Hero Lab at all. That is what I would have a major contention with.

I wonder where Nefreet GM's. It should be posted as a disclaimer to avoid that location.

The Exchange 2/5 **

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As someone who has played with Nefreet many times, I'd like to say you are very very wrong in your assumptions. Not only is he a super nice guy, he is one of the most dedicated GMs I have ever met. Allways a great time. :D

I think people sometimes fail to understand that PFS is ultimately a marketing device for paizo. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)so of course they want/need you to buy their products to continue to write quality adventures and keep the campign alive.

To (well semi) quote the great Dead Kennedys. You can take herolabs and shove it.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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CraziFuzzy wrote:
I wonder where Nefreet GMs.

Primarily Northern California, though I try to cross pollinate as often as I can. 170ish games GMed across 4 states. And I'm aiming to attend my first GenCon this year.

I'll happily run a game for you, should our paths ever cross.

Just don't bring HeroLab ;-)

Lantern Lodge 3/5

@Nefreet, if a player comes to your table with a herolab character sheet, but! He or she understands his character, owns all the relevant books/pdfs and is able to give proper breakdowns of his stats when called for. Would you be alright with such a player playing at your table?

Aka, if someone uses HeroLab just to organize their characters, is it ok?
Just trying to understand how bad is the situation in your location.

-----------

From personal experiences with players using HeroLab at the table in my area. There was once or twice, where upon asking for clarification of a certain spell, feat or class power, the player using HeroLab was unable to come up with a proper answer. We had to pause the game to calculate the proper attack modifier or look up the spell or feat.

That said, these cases involve newer players who just started learning Pathfinder. Older players who do use herolab, mainly use it cos it makes things neat.
Herolab is not very commonly used here.

As long as people understand their characters and have the proper materials at hand, it should be fine, right?


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Secane wrote:

From personal experiences with players using HeroLab at table, there is once or twice, where upon asking for clarification of a certain spell, feat or class power, the player using HeroLab was unable to come up with a proper answer. We had to pause the game to calculate the proper attack modifier or look up the spell or feat.

Which of course never happens with players not using Herolab, even newer players. :)


Jrat Bumpkins wrote:

As someone who has played with Nefreet many times, I'd like to say you are very very wrong in your assumptions. Not only is he a super nice guy, he is one of the most dedicated GMs I have ever met. Allways a great time. :D

I think people sometimes fail to understand that PFS is ultimately a marketing device for paizo. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)so of course they want/need you to buy their products to continue to write quality adventures and keep the campign alive.

To (well semi) quote the great Dead Kennedys. You can take herolabs and shove it.

Right, I don't think thats really in contention at this point I beleive everyone understands you must own the paizo version of the books first. It somone owns all the relevent books and has access to them, you don't get to tell them they can' use hero lab. I don't play Society but if I did I'd only use the books I own so thats most the core rules and a few others. Which means I unfortunatly could not play a slayer as of right now which is fine I understand that.

thejeff wrote:
Secane wrote:

From personal experiences with players using HeroLab at table, there is once or twice, where upon asking for clarification of a certain spell, feat or class power, the player using HeroLab was unable to come up with a proper answer. We had to pause the game to calculate the proper attack modifier or look up the spell or feat.

Which of course never happens with players not using Herolab, even newer players. :)

Of course not...cause Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd aren't a thing.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Uwotm8 wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
It makes you wonder how much money Nefreet has cost Paizo by driving people away from PFS and Pathfinder.
If things are as he says, then he's cost them nothing. They weren't buying Paizo's products anyway and were just using HeroLab.

He did not say he was turning people away for using Hero Lab as their rule source, he said he was turning people away for using Hero Lab at all. That is what I would have a major contention with.

I wonder where Nefreet GM's. It should be posted as a disclaimer to avoid that location.

As annoyed as I am by him doing it, he is probably not the only one so he has actually shed light on a situation that not many know about. This is kind of a good thing, and I think it needs to be addressed by PFS officially. I don't just mean Herolabs, but the idea of kicking someone off of a table because you don't like their character sheet, or how they track stats etc etc, because that is basically what he is doing. He just uses auditing to cover it up at time.

This leads into another questions. How "not correct" does a character sheet have to be before a GM can rightfully say "You can not sit at my table"?


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Jrat Bumpkins wrote:

As someone who has played with Nefreet many times, I'd like to say you are very very wrong in your assumptions. Not only is he a super nice guy, he is one of the most dedicated GMs I have ever met. Allways a great time. :D

I think people sometimes fail to understand that PFS is ultimately a marketing device for paizo. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)so of course they want/need you to buy their products to continue to write quality adventures and keep the campign alive.

To (well semi) quote the great Dead Kennedys. You can take herolabs and shove it.

I don't think anyone said he was a big meanie. :)

We are saying he is overstepping his bounds. :)

Lantern Lodge 3/5

thejeff wrote:
Secane wrote:

From personal experiences with players using HeroLab at table, there is once or twice, where upon asking for clarification of a certain spell, feat or class power, the player using HeroLab was unable to come up with a proper answer. We had to pause the game to calculate the proper attack modifier or look up the spell or feat.

Which of course never happens with players not using Herolab, even newer players. :)

lol, well you got me there.

I have to point out that the player (while new to PF) are playing lv 5+ characters, meaning they have been clueless about the errors in their characters for a few games.

As for the spells and feats, the main problem is that herolab gives a print out of it, but it was incomplete, meaning that the player in question was given a false sense of being prepared for the game. Only to realize during the game that herolab gave him an incomplete description.

These were just an isolated case or two, most of the time using whatever 3rd party character sheet, your own personal excel sheet or herolab is fine. GMs could however be given a bad impression of a 3rd party character record system if it has errors often enough.

5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Obo, d20pfsrd is a great resource but it is not a rules source. I use it to find a rule (as if it were an index) and then I look it up in the appropriate book (I use PDFs so that they are always up to date).

As for it's accuracy, it is generally accurate but not always so. It (incorrectly) used the 3.5 reach weapon exception for 3 years before the error was noticed.

And wound up being right in the end.

To be fair, Mike Brock ruled the same way two years ago when he GMed Bonekeep for me.

Dark Archive 5/5

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

if you dont want herolab at your table let people know ahead of time...they can print out a sheet and bring their resources if needed... or they can play a pre gen


wellsmv wrote:

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

if you dont want herolab at your table let people know ahead of time...they can print out a sheet and bring their resources if needed... or they can play a pre gen

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you actually can't refuse someone a seat in for Society play. Esspecially not for no reason. I suppose next is not allowing neon pink and yellow dice because the color combination offends your senses (which it should but that is not the point).


wellsmv wrote:

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

if you dont want herolab at your table let people know ahead of time...they can print out a sheet and bring their resources if needed... or they can play a pre gen

Talk to your VO or event organizer about that.

They may not be happy with you keeping people from playing in the games they've set up or forcing them to shuffle people around at the last minute.

Dark Archive 5/5

I Gm pfs games from my home...

I can refuse whoever i want.. for whatever reason i want...

new rule - no pink dice.. unless you are a little girl( then its just cute)...


Especially when that person refused a seat puts a boot to your butt. Can't roll a save against that.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5

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Secane wrote:
As for the spells and feats, the main problem is that herolab gives a print out of it, but it was incomplete, meaning that the player in question was given a false sense of being prepared for the game. Only to realize during the game that herolab gave him an incomplete description.

That's user error in my opinion. HeroLab gives two different options for outputting spells and feats. For feats and abilities, there is a checkbox to turn full descriptions on and off. Although it does truncate longer ones, but typically that's obvious because there's no period. For spells, there is a brief description printout version and a full rulebook printout version. I always do the full version for players that don't already know their spells from memory.

Secane wrote:
These were just an isolated case or two, most of the time using whatever 3rd party character sheet, your own personal excel sheet or herolab is fine. GMs could however be given a bad impression of a 3rd party character record system if it has errors often enough.

I believe that's exactly what I think is happening for most of the people against HeroLab. HeroLab is no worse than hand-done character sheets and is better in most cases, especially when used as a game-play aid.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jeremy Coppersmith wrote:
What have I done!!!! What have I created!!!! God how did my question fall so low to the rage within these people. I didn't realize how this would just turn into a I hate you, you hate me thing. God save us all!

Hello, and welcome to the forums!

*ow ow ow ow* i was kidding *ow ow ow * put the duck dow *ow ow ow*

We need to see if you're heavier than the duck!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wellsmv wrote:

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

And as long as your "reasonable" reasons are actually "reasonable", that's fine. Refusing to seat someone at a public PFS event should only be done as a last resort, however.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Well, havoc xiii, it depends on the situation. (This is a common sense response to a real-world question, rather than a by-the-rules answer.)

If I'm running a game, under my own aegis, I can set whatever parameters I want for the game. "No gunslingers." "We're all playing elves." "Kevin cheats and smells bad, so I'm not inviting him." And you can still run PFS-legal characters, through PFS-legal scenarios, and get PFS credit.

If you're GMing at a public game, you (or the organizer) should expect that people are going to be coming to the venue with all manner of Society-legal characters, and you should be able to accommodate them. If you refuse to have HeroLab, or gunslinger PCs, or Kevin the stinky cheater at your table, there should be another table where they can sit and play.

Because: what's the alternative? You're not getting paid to GM, and there aren't shackles keeping you chained to the table. A GM always has the option to decline to run, if the venue organizer would decide to press the issue. Of course, then you would a reputation of flaking out under bad circumstances at the last minute, and you would probably get fewer requests to GM.

Dark Archive 5/5

thejeff wrote:
wellsmv wrote:

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

if you dont want herolab at your table let people know ahead of time...they can print out a sheet and bring their resources if needed... or they can play a pre gen

Talk to your VO or event organizer about that.

They may not be happy with you keeping people from playing in the games they've set up or forcing them to shuffle people around at the last minute.

Its not really any of their business what i do within the confines of my home...

its only thru weeding out the bad players that we can truly enjoy ourselves... get rid of the min maxers and power gamers .. and your game becomes so much more fun...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:


If you're GMing at a public game, you (or the organizer) should expect that people are going to be coming to the venue with all manner of Society-legal characters, and you should be able to accommodate them. If you refuse to have HeroLab, or gunslinger PCs, or Kevin the stinky cheater at your table, there should be another table where they can sit and play.

You're mostly right. PFS Judges however, are under no obligation to seat players who are repeat and unrepentant cheaters though. Players like Kevin who cheat can actually be booted from the Society altogether. Judges can also remove players who are disruptive in other ways as well.


@Chris:

Right, I meant at orginized events you can do what ever you want at home games... because its your home... you know the place you live and stuff.


wellsmv wrote:
thejeff wrote:
wellsmv wrote:

As a Gm i reserve the right to deny a person at my table for whatever reason i deem reasonable....

if you dont want herolab at your table let people know ahead of time...they can print out a sheet and bring their resources if needed... or they can play a pre gen

Talk to your VO or event organizer about that.

They may not be happy with you keeping people from playing in the games they've set up or forcing them to shuffle people around at the last minute.

Its not really any of their business what i do within the confines of my home...

its only thru weeding out the bad players that we can truly enjoy ourselves... get rid of the min maxers and power gamers .. and your game becomes so much more fun...

As Chris said, if you're running private PFS-legal games, you can do as you please.

If you're running public games, then you have much less leeway.

Of course, even at home, if you boot all your players because they like HL and you don't, you won't have a game, but I assume that isn't a problem for you.


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Just like most of the gamers here, I have most of the books. I also have HL.

I have not joined PFS, and while if I did, I would abide by all the rules to the best of my ability, but if someone objects to me using HL as a character management tool,because of some Luddite bias, I can spend my time elsewhere, and word of mouth can be just as bad as it is beneficial.

Is this what my fellow gamers have for issues?

Reminds me of one the older bits of advice from long ago, possibly Skip Williams: Only game with people you like...which means people you know, which makes PFS even less attractive.


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Why do I suddenly see a DM sitting alone in his living room/LFGS table all set up for gaming with no one there because they were turned away for using HL?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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"My game has gotten a lot better organized since I banned PCs."


"Everthing stays on the rails and no murderhoboing. Why didn't I do this years ago?!"

Dark Archive 5/5

here in cincinnati - we have so many bad gamers ( min maxers, cheaters, and just general douche bags)

thanks to these folks - i have people lined up to game at my table where i dont allow such non sense..

if everyone turned these fools away it would improve PFS for the masses....

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.


Does using HL automatically fall under one of those categories?

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5

Veldan Rath wrote:

Reminds me of one the older bits of advice from long ago, possibly Skip Williams: Only game with people you like...which means people you know, which makes PFS even less attractive.

While this thread has been heated and head-scratchy at times, I've immensely enjoyed the vast majority of PFS games I've played. Some of the best gaming stories I tell are from PFS right alongside the home-brew campaigns I've done. While my gaming group of more than 15 years now has a hard time getting together to play more than once every few months, PFS gives me an opportunity to still have fun gaming regularly and to have met some other wonderful people, too.


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Jiggy wrote:
I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.

Maybe those that got it didn't see the need to reply?


How did hero lab move on to banning minmaxers? Which doesn't mean anything other than a derogatory term for anyone who doesn't play the way you think it should be played.

Sovereign Court

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Jiggy wrote:
I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.

Perhaps it was too meta. For you know what they say...

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

I'll happily run a game for you, should our paths ever cross.

Just don't bring HeroLab ;-)

Guess I'll have to see what conventions you have up there.

Sovereign Court

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wellsmv wrote:
its only thru weeding out the bad players that we can truly enjoy ourselves... get rid of the min maxers and power gamers .. and your game becomes so much more fun...

How do you define min-maxers and power gamers? Someone who doesn't understand the rules he copied from an optimization guides. (The common complaint on this thread.) Or anyone who makes a character more powerful than you think they should be? (utterly subjective)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.
Perhaps it was too meta. For you know what they say...

So was he speaking metaphorically.

Sovereign Court 2/5

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Nefreet wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And really, Nefreet? Is that the kind of thing you can kick people out of PFS games for?

I didn't say I kick people out of PFS for using HeroLab.

I said I don't allow it at my tables.

And I'm 100% within my right as a GM to do that.

If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.

No, Nefreet, you do not have that right. In fact, it is against PFS rules. If they have their chronicles and copies of books/PDFs for their character options beyond core, they can have their character on whatever format they wish. You can audit the character, but you cannot disallow their use of HeroLab for formatting.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've used both Herolab and PCGen for what I consider a very humane reason... to spare GMs and Judges the horrors of my handwriting which is bad enough to have Mayor Giuliani declare exposing others to it, a Quality of Life crime.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Galahad0430 wrote:


No, Nefreet, you do not have that right. In fact, it is against PFS rules.

Galahad0430, could you please cite the rule in question?


LazarX wrote:
I've used both Herolab and PCGen for what I consider a very humane reason... to spare GMs and Judges the horrors of my handwriting which is bad enough to have Mayor Giuliani declare exposing others to it, a Quality of Life crime.

Same here, I once had a teacher give up on my cursive writing....

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Jiggy wrote:
I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.

Well, it seemed to parallel the current discussion a bit to closely for me to accept it as 100% genuine.

Regardless, the only real point I got out of it is that rules lazy people are a pain in the butt. But I do not think that was a point that was ever in contention on this thread. The main point in contention I see in this thread is whether or not removing a crutch from rules lazy people will make them less rules lazy. My experience says, 'No.'


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trollbill wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
I guess my "personal anecdote" was too subtle. Oh well, I tried.

Well, it seemed to parallel the current discussion a bit to closely for me to accept it as 100% genuine.

Regardless, the only real point I got out of it is that rules lazy people are a pain in the butt. But I do not think that was a point that was ever in contention on this thread. The main point in contention I see in this thread is whether or not removing a crutch from rules lazy people will make them less rules lazy. My experience says, 'No.'

Spoiler:
He was Herolab
Sovereign Court 2/5

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I'm happy to keep using HL as a "crutch." ;)

I use an airplane as a crutch sometimes when I don't want to hitch up a covered wagon and travel several years to my destination.

(As an aside, the use of the word crutch is baiting - trying to imply that one is a better person/player than you are if you use HeroLab - which every time I hear/read it I envision a cantankerous old man with a cane stomping in his doorway telling kids to get off'n his lawn and yelling things like "back in MY day...")

I'm bringing a minimum of 3 devices to every table at which I play (laptop, ipad, phone). I can have several sources open at the same time that way in a very small space compared to a stack of books or even printed pdf pages. That way I also have three copies of everything I own. I rarely use all 3 but when things get busy or if I am GMing they are useful to have.

There is simply too much material to remember. No one here knows all of it. Everyone here uses a "crutch" to help them organize the game unless you are using physical copies of every single source, every single time (in which case I pity you - how archaic!)

I also have no problem with people saying "HeroLab said so" because 99.9% of the time, HL is correct. Many of the examples given above have nothing to do with the tool being used. They are also easily corrected by looking at the screen modifiers when they occur.

People showing up without purchased sources has nothing to do with HeroLab, either. The rule is the rule. I've seen people show up without sources of any kind -- same issue but no HL involved.

And as long as we are using personal experiences as a basis for argument (as if it matters to the reader), here's mine. I have been challenged at tables exactly five times on rules / whatnot that appeared in HeroLab while I was using it. All five times the GM was incorrect and HeroLab was right. These included 5-star GMs and GMs who are (very) outspoken that HeroLab is badwrongfun.

I find the experience...satisfying when that happens.

HeroLab is more accurate than my CRB. I have the first printing of that and I'm not taking it anywhere anymore. Sure, the pdf is updated but the physical product I purchased from Paizo isn't. HeroLab *keeps* me accurate.

I don't care who you are or how good you think you are. Unless you have that special brand of autism that allows you to remember every single page number and verbatim rules, HeroLab "knows" more rules than you do and HeroLab is more accurate and faster than you are when several modifiers are involved.

Maybe the players people are using in their anecdotal experience are idiots. Maybe they have some form of mental setback like I do (I have eidetic memory for many things but I have every edition of this game rattling around in my head over the last 37 years and at times I remember earlier edition rules in place of current ones, or rulings on the boards that changed 3 times since I read them).

I would love, simply love to sit at a gm's table at a con or public event and have them tell me the use of herolab is invalid and try to remove me from the table.

If questioned about sources, I'm going to show the GM my downloads page that proves I bought the source material and then I am going to use primarily HL until questioned on mechanics, then use the PRD to show that HL is likely again correct. Its faster and easier.

If a GM decides to audit my PC during the slot simply because I am using HeroLab, we'll be having a chat at HQ as to why you think your ego is more important than players' time, because IMO that is all this is about. Any GM who wastes players' time just because they don't like HL shouldn't be a GM at all.

My opinion is the people who don't like HeroLab are not wanting to shell out the cash for it and therefore want others to not do so either. Using the argument that since it is not infallible it should not be used also applies to all humans, which includes character sheets (and chronicles) written by said humans.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

At our FLGS, we've made sure to spread the word about owning the source material -- so that has not been a problem for our Hero Lab-using players since we've started making the effort of reminding players they are responsible for owning the books/pdfs.

What I have had issues with are players thinking that making all their purchases on HL means they do not have to fill out or organize their chronicles. (They get one friendly warning, one firm warning and on the third strike they'd have to use a pre-gen...luckily, I've never reached the third strike.)

Otherwise HL is great tool and its up to the organizers, GMs and fellow players to remind HL-using folks (in the nicest and friendliest of ways) that HL does not absolve them of ownership, rules knowledge or organization.

Sovereign Court 2/5

The rules concerning preventing players from playing are quite clear. You can only ban characters that do not have the supporting material in book/PDF, or players that are disruptive (actually disruptive, not using a tool you don't like). I can guarantee that if Nefreet goes to Gen Con and tries to prevent people playing just because they built their characters using Hero Lab, he will definitely get a talking to by the Paizo staff running the event.

In addition, the claim he makes about 100% of characters he has audited that were built with Hero Lab being wrong is pure hyperbole. My PFS 10th level Aldori Swordlord is on Hero Lab, is a very complex build and is 100% accurate. What Nefreet does at a home run PFS game is his business, but in public venues he must adhere to the actual rules and the most important rule of all is play, play, play. It is his responsibility to promote play of PFS not inhibit play because of personal biases.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sheriff Bart wrote:

I'm happy to keep using HL as a "crutch." ;)

I use an airplane as a crutch sometimes when I don't want to hitch up a covered wagon and travel several years to my destination.

I lol'd.

-Skeld

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