JCAB |
What happens if you try to scry (using a spell like scrying or greater scrying) on a person which isn't alive any more? Do the spell simply fail? Do you see their corpse? What about if they have been eaten or the body has been dismembered and scattered?
Moreover, imagine that you wanted to fake your death in the eyes of a high level (lvl 14) witch, how would you go about it? You can assume that she has access to spells like Greater Scrying, Vision/Legend Lore, Contact Other Plane and Find the Path; but also that once you have convinced her you are dead, she will stop looking for you.
RumpinRufus |
Dead people are considered objects AFAIK, so you cannot scry them.
Lucky for you, your witch is one level short of being able to cast Discern Location. If that were available, you'd be pretty well boned, especially if she had ever touched you. If she had touched you, and still couldn't find you with Discern Location, she'd know you're alive and Mind Blanked. If she hadn't touched you, Mind Blank could work in tricking her into thinking you're dead. If you were not Mind Blanked and still alive, she would just find you.
Find the Path wouldn't help her, as you are not a "prominent location". I don't think Legend Lore would help her much, besides telling her the location of your last legendary exploit.
However, Divination and Contact Other Plane are going to be hard to get around. I think Mind Blank is the only thing that would work against those.
Kayerloth |
Scrying and or Greater Scrying on a deceased person what happens?
Fails is the simple answer though I do see room for table variation. The question being does one scry the physical body or the soul/spirit occupying the body, because the next issue that pops if you say the physical body is what happens when they are under the effect of a polymorph type spell and someone attempts to Scry them, etc, etc..
But anyway:
Start with Nondetection (1 hr/level)
Then add in Detect Scrying (24 hour duration) and be aware of any attempt to Scry you (or otherwise use divination(scrying) magic on you) ... and potentially see them and know the direction and distance to them. Keep a Dimension Door or similar teleportation magic handy and maybe make them regret Scrying you.
Consider using Secure Shelter + Private Sanctum as needed for group coverage in the field (or just Private Sanctum if the room/structure is already present). Though reading it now I'm not seeing a RAW reason to actually have a structure/room to use Private Sanctum on ...
False Vision (1 hr/level) - You get to state what any scryer actually sees within the area when scrying (as if Major Image).
Then we have Screen, Sequester and Mindblank. As RumpinRufus said stopping things like Commune and Contact are going to be tough as those spells depend a lot on GM fiat and the cleverness of the one doing the asking and are pretty much the way a clever party can deal with a foe using some of the tricks above. So I personally wouldn't be in a big hurry to convince anyone they didn't work to find someone protected by spells like Mindblank provided the line of questioning was appropriate in skirting around directly asking about "you".
Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity work against Scrying and Greater Scrying as well (as appropriate).
Note that Find The Path works to get to a location. A person or creature is not a location and it does not work across planes. It also shows only the direct physical route ... Teleportation is not going to be a possible path regardless.
the Lorax |
Let the witch "kill you", just for alternate values of "kill" and "you".
The witch is unlikely to go hunting for someone who they think they killed already.
Simulacrum + some illusions and anti-divinatory spells could do the trick.
Let the witch think she successfully tracked you down, and killed you, then go about your business.
Kayerloth |
GRRRRRrrrr I've managed to erase/delete my post twice now, irritating friggin touch pad.
Note:
Scrying/Greater Scrying does not 'target' the creature it creates an effect. That effect is a magical and mobile invisible sensor which can be seen (by anyone) with a successful Perception check Base DC = 20 + spell level.
I'm prone to saying that when a creature makes the Will save the sensor fails to be created.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
And obviously if the sensor fails to be created that is definitely 'sensed' by the caster making the last line of the quote above somewhat contradictory.
The spell also fails if the target is deceased ... unless you want to go with the alternate of its zeroing in on the soul/spirit etc. I'd likely allow the caster to know the difference between spell failing to conform and someone making the Will save. You know it failed but you do not know why ... and some of the above counter-measures such as Screen and False Vision rather explicitly prevent you from even learning that much (and make the Will save a non-issue).
Senko |
GRRRRRrrrr I've managed to erase/delete my post twice now, irritating friggin touch pad.
Note:
Scrying/Greater Scrying does not 'target' the creature it creates an effect. That effect is a magical and mobile invisible sensor which can be seen (by anyone) with a successful Perception check Base DC = 20 + spell level.I'm prone to saying that when a creature makes the Will save the sensor fails to be created.
CRB wrote:Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.And obviously if the sensor fails to be created that is definitely 'sensed' by the caster making the last line of the quote above somewhat contradictory.
The spell also fails if the target is deceased ... unless you want to go with the alternate of its zeroing in on the soul/spirit etc. I'd likely allow the caster to know the difference between spell failing to conform and someone making the Will save. You know it failed but you do not know why ... and some of the above counter-measures such as Screen and False Vision rather explicitly prevent you from even learning that much (and make the Will save a non-issue).
I've always been a bit baffled by that to be honest how do you see an invisible magical sensor? If your a mage with the ability to perceive magic I can see you sensing the magical aura it creates but most people aren't it if your under a see invisibility or true seeing effect you might see an eye or something.
PC 1 (made check): "Careful someone's spying on us."
PC 2 (failed check) "What where!"
PC 1: "There's a sensor over there."
PC 2: "I don't see anything."
PC 1: "If course not its invisible and intangible"
5 days later
PC 1: "Be careful what you say my lord we're being spied on."
PC 2: "I'm sorry ever since he tried the dwarves ale in a tavern he's been claiming to see invisible things."
fictionfan |
Let the witch "kill you", just for alternate values of "kill" and "you".
The witch is unlikely to go hunting for someone who they think they killed already.
Simulacrum + some illusions and anti-divinatory spells could do the trick.
Let the witch think she successfully tracked you down, and killed you, then go about your business.
Simulacrums turn back into snow when they are destroyed. That's not going to fool anyone.
Senko |
the Lorax wrote:Simulacrums turn back into snow when they are destroyed. That's not going to fool anyone.Let the witch "kill you", just for alternate values of "kill" and "you".
The witch is unlikely to go hunting for someone who they think they killed already.
Simulacrum + some illusions and anti-divinatory spells could do the trick.
Let the witch think she successfully tracked you down, and killed you, then go about your business.
I think that's why they also suggested using illusions.
Kayerloth |
All invisible things in the game tend to be less than perfect and subject to being seen whether they are magical sensors, a wizard's quasit familiar, or just a lurking creature using a potion or what not. The biggest difference is the DC to note the sensor is essentially static and therefore doesn't scale against a higher level party or monster as well.
Also why my arcane casters generally have Detect Scrying running as soon as the slot can be spared as well as See Invisibility on the asap list for permanency. And if I had reason to believe someone might be scrying me/the party then that slot is likely going to Detect Scrying very early.
I'd also think strongly about fooling the Witch by fooling a trusted (relatively anyway) subordinate. Presumably the subordinate is lower level, less magically protected and therefore easier to fool than the Witch herself. I also assume she is dangerous and risky to directly confront or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
To aid in defense against Commune and Contact type spells I'd also tend to appear in public in disguise as much as possible preferable using both mundane and magical means to do so. Seeming and Veil are a couple of longer lasting solutions to magical disguise.
the Lorax |
fictionfan wrote:I think that's why they also suggested using illusions.Simulacrums turn back into snow when they are destroyed. That's not going to fool anyone.
Indeed it is, and some anti-divinatory spells to cover up the use of the illusions and the fact that it's a snowman.