Thought that I would post this idea here in the hopes of ensuring that it's balanced and is not, in some manner, too uber. The premise is very simple and straightforward: a swashbuckler archetype which focuses on the use of the elven curve blade. Please see below and let me know what you think ....
The Elven Duelist:
Elven Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, an elven duelist gains the benefits of Weapon Finesse with the elven curve blade (this ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites). Also, an elven duelist treats the elven curve blade as a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon when utilizing swashbuckler deeds as well as feat requirements.
This ability replaces swashbuckler finesse.
New Deeds wrote:
The elven duelist gains the following deeds.
Elegant Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a curve blade (though not natural weapon attacks), adding half her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by graceful strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a graceful strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, an elven duelist can spend 2 panache points to double her graceful strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
This ability replaces precise strike.
Elven Grace (Ex): At 7th level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist can add her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to damage while wielding an elven curve blade. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. Unlike a normal two-handed weapon the elven duelist does not apply 1-1/2 times the character's Dexterity bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
This ability replaces superior feint.
Weapon Focus: At 4th level the elven duelist receives weapon focus (elven curve blade) as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces the bonus feat obtained at 4th level.
Elven Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, an elven duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with curve blades. While wielding a curve blade, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon training.
Elven Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, when an elven duelist threatens a critical hit with a curve blade, that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1 (this increase to the critical threat range stacks with the increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects), and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon mastery.
Any and all comments are welcome and appreciated.:)
The big issue with a curve blade is that, by my reading, nothing here prohibits the use of Power Attack as well as Elegant Strike. That makes it really, really powerful. A two-handed weapon with PA is already the highest damage output available; this increases it based on level. That seems quite good, especially with the swashbuckler's defensive abilities.
I'm also not a fan of Elven Grace coming online at 4th level but replacing an ability gained at 8th level.
The big issue with a curve blade is that, by my reading, nothing here prohibits the use of Power Attack as well as Elegant Strike. That makes it really, really powerful. A two-handed weapon with PA is already the highest damage output available; this increases it based on level. That seems quite good, especially with the swashbuckler's defensive abilities.
This is why I limited the elegant strike damage to half the swashbucklers level. I thought that this would be a balancing factor versus those players that picked up power attack. I will have to iron out some numbers to see if there is a huge difference in power.
SteelDraco wrote:
I'm also not a fan of Elven Grace coming online at 4th level but replacing an ability gained at 8th level.
Hmm ... copy/pasta error.:( The Elven Grace ability was suppose to replace superior feint @ 7th level. I had created a few different drafts and managed to copy the wrong one. The archetype has been updated.
Hey, me and my GM came up with the same idea for Precise Strike! we were making a Two-Handed Duelist PrC so we could use the Aldori Dueling Sword as well.
Firstly, I don't like Elven Grace. If your players are going to be loosing a bonus feat for it anyway why not make Slashing Grace apply as a class feature?
The solution we came up with was to alter Swashbucklers Finesse;
Two-Handed Finesse wrote:
At 1st level, a Two-Handed Duelist gains the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat. Additionally, if a Two-Handed Dueist has the Slashing Grace feat, he can apply the benifits to any finessable weapon, even if that weapon is wielded in two hands.
When using Slashing Grace with a weapon wielded in two hands, you are not treating that weapon as a one-handed weapon.
@ Diminuendo ... that idea is most excellent! Thanks. Also, I hope you don't mind but I have going to incorporate it into my archetype. Below is the updated archetype
Elven Duelist - Revised:
Elven Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, an elven duelist gains the benefits of Weapon Finesse with the elven curve blade (this ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites). Also, an elven duelist treats the elven curve blade as a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon when utilizing swashbuckler deeds as well as feat requirements.
Additionally, the elven duelist can select the Slashing Grace feat, and apply it's benefits to the elven curve blade.
This ability replaces swashbuckler finesse.
New Deeds wrote:
The elven duelist gains the following deeds.
Elegant Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a curve blade (though not natural weapon attacks), adding half her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by graceful strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a graceful strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, an elven duelist can spend 2 panache points to double her graceful strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
This ability replaces precise strike.
Weapon Focus: At 4th level the elven duelist receives weapon focus (elven curve blade) as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces the bonus feat obtained at 4th level.
Elven Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, an elven duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with curve blades. While wielding a curve blade, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon training.
Elven Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, when an elven duelist threatens a critical hit with a curve blade, that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1 (this increase to the critical threat range stacks with the increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects), and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon mastery.
Just a quick glance at damage seems to indicate that the elven duelist would be dealing only slightly more damage. Less in the early levels and more in the later levels.
It's a fairly simple look at damage output I know. But overall I believe halving the damage of precise strike was the trick to balancing this archetype versus the normal one-handed users.
I would make it clear that the elven curve blade DOES NOT count as a one-handed weapon; I could take one level of the archetype, take 19 levels of Daring Champion and two-hand precise strike. You also never state the player actually gets the weapon finess feat; if I ever use another finessable weapon, I have to use strength
Also drop the weapon focus, let the player decide when to grab it.
I mostly like it as I also thought it would be really cool to swashbuckler with an elven curved blade.
I thought about basing it on the inspired blade archetype as both focus on a single weapon. This would give you weapon focus for free as a 1st level bonus feat.
Halfing the bonus for precise strike balances the greater weapon damage just fine for me.
Do you intend for this archetype to be exclusive to elves? For every else the Elven curved blade is an exotic weapon (unless they jump through the right hoops at character creation.)
Thanks again for all the great advice and comments. Here is the archetype. I believe this should be the final version which I will be using.
Elven Duelist - Revised:
Elven Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, an elven duelist gains the benefits of Weapon Finesse with the elven curve blade (this ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites as well as wielding other weapons which can benefit from this feat). Also, an elven duelist treats the elven curve blade as a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon when utilizing swashbuckler deeds. This benefit does not apply to other classes or archetypes which grant deeds, such as the daring champion cavalier archetype.
Additionally, the elven duelist can select the Slashing Grace feat, and apply it's benefits to the elven curve blade.
This ability replaces swashbuckler finesse.
New Deeds wrote:
The elven duelist gains the following deeds.
Elegant Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a curve blade (though not natural weapon attacks), adding half her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by graceful strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a graceful strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, an elven duelist can spend 2 panache points to double her graceful strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
This ability replaces precise strike.
Elven Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, an elven duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with curve blades. While wielding a curve blade, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon training.
Elven Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, when an elven duelist threatens a critical hit with a curve blade, that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1 (this increase to the critical threat range stacks with the increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects), and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon mastery.
@ Diminuendo, thanks for pointing out that trick with the daring champion archetype. I have added a caveat which should prevent such abuse.
@ Morag the Gatherer. Glad ya like it.:) The inspired blade is a perfect match. However, I think also granting weapon focus at first level is a bit much because the archetype greatly expands the options available to a swashbuckler wielding a curve blade. I would have to say my initial intent was to have this be only accessible to elves. Although I could certainly see a variant which would allow non-elves to more easily take advantage of this archetype.
Hmm ... I am wondering if adding in weapon focus at 1st level would be alright. After all, the archetype is focused on one weapon.
I like the general idea, though I'm not convinced that custom-allowing Slashing Grace is the way to go. Why not just leave Precise Strike as-is?
I also don't really like the way you've completely specialized the archetype in the curve blade. I'd rather do it like this:
Quote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Swashbucklers are proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as light armor and bucklers but not with shields.
Elven Finesse this ability functions like Swashbuckler's Finesse except it also applies to the Elven Curve Blade and the longsword. For the purpose of meeting the criteria for Swashbuckler class features, the ECB and longsword are considered a light or one-handed piercing weapons.
Precise Strike this ability functions like the normal Swashbuckler deed except it cannot be performed while wearing any shield, not even a buckler.
Elven Weapon Training this ability functions like Swashbuckler Weapon Training except it only applies to the ECB, longsword and rapier.
Elven Weapon Mastery this ability functions like Swashbuckler Weapon Mastery except it only applies to the ECB, longsword and rapier.
I cut out the buckler use. I added the longsword and rapier because those are also mentioned in elven weapon familiarity.
@ Ascalaphus ... the reason for the precise strike change is due to the increased damage output of two-handed power attack. By halving precise strike it keeps it more in line with a one-handed weapon wielding swashbuckler.
The problem with the curve blade has always been that finesseing is nice, but almost pointless if you don't get some alternative to strength on damage. Precise Strike could be that alternative.
It's true that you get a little bit of extra power attack damage, but it's really not all that much; it's just 3 more damage at level 8.
A reason I'd rather not halve Precise Strike, is that doing so would basically limit you to using only curve blades. Sure, it's your favourite weapon, but I always get a little bit queasy when an archetype limits you to using only one weapon effectively. Longswords and rapiers for example are also elven swords and should also work at least as well for members of this PrC, as they should for regular swashbucklers.
And you do make a trade: you lose out on buckler proficiency, and can't use Precise Strike while using a shield, even if you managed to get rid of the armor check penalty.
The problem with the curve blade has always been that finesseing is nice, but almost pointless if you don't get some alternative to strength on damage. Precise Strike could be that alternative.
It's true that you get a little bit of extra power attack damage, but it's really not all that much; it's just 3 more damage at level 8.
A reason I'd rather not halve Precise Strike, is that doing so would basically limit you to using only curve blades. Sure, it's your favourite weapon, but I always get a little bit queasy when an archetype limits you to using only one weapon effectively. Longswords and rapiers for example are also elven swords and should also work at least as well for members of this PrC, as they should for regular swashbucklers.
And you do make a trade: you lose out on buckler proficiency, and can't use Precise Strike while using a shield, even if you managed to get rid of the armor check penalty.
too small of a trade imo.
3 points of raw damage at lvl8, and 4 at lvl12, multiplied on a crit, with a very crit heavy weapon and free crit stuff from early on, is not little, it's a free 1.5-2feats, and you only lose a bit of ac, which isnt even that crucial due to parry+riposte.
if you would wanted to keep it more inline, and still retain the full precise, you should at least sacrifice the bonus 4th and 8th feat. or limit precise strike to be like "if you are using a two handed weapon, precise strike damage is halved"
you forget that you actually have to buy power attack now, to keep your damage up, and your to hit is lower when you are using it (which hurts parry and reposte)
So are looking to make a swashbuckler who can use his bonus finesse only with the ecb or also with the ecb?
Answer -> "...also with the ecb". I revised the ability again based on another poster and forgot to post it. Here is the corrected version:
Elven Finesse(Ex): This ability functions like Swashbuckler's Finesse except it also applies to the elven curve blade. For the purpose of meeting the criteria for swashbuckler class features (i.e. deeds), and feats, the elven curve blade is considered a light or one-handed piercing weapons. This benefit does not apply to other classes or archetypes which grant deeds or similar abilities, such as the daring champion cavalier archetype.
Additionally, the elven duelist can select the Slashing Grace feat, and apply it's benefits to the elven curve blade.
Alrighty ... I am having a really difficult time getting this archetype ironed out. I have been working on it for a while and realized that it needs to be revamped. Below is the newest version (thanks for the ideas Ascalaphus)
Revised Elven Duelist wrote:
Elven Swordsmanship (Ex): This ability functions like Swashbuckler's Finesse except it applies to the elven curve blade, longsword and rapier. For the purpose of meeting the criteria for swashbuckler class features (i.e. deeds), and feats, the elven curve blade and longsword is considered a light or one-handed piercing weapon. This benefit does not apply to other classes or archetypes which grant deeds or similar abilities, such as the daring champion cavalier archetype.
Additionally, the elven duelist can select, and apply the benefits of the Slashing Grace feat to the elven curve blade.
This ability replaces swashbuckler finesse.
Deeds
The elven duelist gains the following deeds.
Elegant Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a curve blade (though not natural weapon attacks) adding half her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. If she wields a longsword or rapier the bonus damage is not halved. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by graceful strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a graceful strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, an elven duelist can spend 1 panache points to double her graceful strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
This ability replaces precise strike.
Elven Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, an elven duelist gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 bonus damage rolls with curve blades, longswords and rapiers. While wielding one of the listed weapons, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon training.
Elven Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, when an elven duelist threatens a critical hit with a curve blade, longsword or rapier that critical hit is automatically confirmed. Furthermore, the critical threat range increases by 1 (this increase to the critical threat range stacks with the increases from the keen weapon special ability and similar effects), and the critical modifier of the weapon increases by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).
This ability replaces swashbuckler weapon mastery.
This to me feels like a better "elven duelist" as the archetype concentrates on the racial melee weapons common to elves.
Some suggestions, I started this before your last post, but here it is anyways. I like the elven Finesse name more. I think this wording will cover requirements for Ecb to be used with the Slashing Grace feat.
Elven Swordsmanship(Ex): This ability functions like Swashbuckler Finesse except it also applies to longswords, elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name, you can treat them as a light weapon, one-handed piercing melee weapon, and a one-handed slashing melee weapon for the purposes of meeting requirements for feat and Elven Duelist class abilities (i.e. deeds) that require such a weapon. This ability replaces swashbuckler finesse.
Panache: Unlike other swashbucklers, a Elven Duelist regains panache only when she confirms a critical hit or makes a killing blow with longswords, rapiers, elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name. This ability alters the panache class feature.
Elegant Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, an elven duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a curve blade (though not natural weapon attacks) adding half her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. If she wields a longsword or rapier the bonus damage is not halved. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by graceful strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a graceful strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, an elven duelist can spend 1 panache points to double her graceful strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the
In this you call out the ECB as only half bonus for damage because of 2-handed DMG bonus. But you do not specify longsword, which can be wielded 2-handed to receive same bonuses.
so if you are going to implement half-bonus i would recommend doing what Shroudb says and just say: "half damage from elegant strike if weapon is wielded in 2 hands."
But overall I agree with Diminuendo, Power attack for this PrC would be a HUGE investment. As this class is set up atm, STR is an obvious dump stat, so any investment put into STR to gain power attack, subtracts from a better place for those points; like a higher DEX, CHA, or most importantly CON (especially since CON will take a hit from being an elf).
So i would argue that the half damage caveat is completely unnecessary. you gain extra damage for not being able to carry a buckler.
TLDR: Power attack is a moot point IMO. Putting a 13 into STR to get power attack, when you are fighting a below AVG CON on a purely melee fighter is going to hurt a lot in the long run.
Many thanks for all the help/suggestions/comments folks! So, I have revised the archetype again, below is the updated version. I believe that this captures all the important aspects of the previous comments. The changes are also much more streamlined and easier to comprehend.
Revised Elven Duelist wrote:
Elven Finesse (Ex): This ability functions like Swashbuckler Finesse except it also applies to longswords, elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name, you can treat them as a light weapon, one-handed piercing melee weapon, and a one-handed slashing melee weapon for the purposes of meeting requirements for feat and Elven Duelist class abilities (i.e. deeds) that require such a weapon.
This ability modifies swashbuckler finesse.
Panache: Unlike other swashbucklers, a Elven Duelist regains panache only when she confirms a critical hit or makes a killing blow with longswords, rapiers, elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name.
This ability modifies panache.
Deeds wrote:
The elven duelist gains the following deeds.
Precise Strike (Ex): This ability functions like the swashbuckler precise strike ability. However, if wielding a two-handed weapon, such as the elven curve blade, the bonus damage is halved.
This ability modifies precise strike.
Elven Weapon Training (Ex): This ability functions like swashbuckler weapon training except it also applies to longswords, elven curve blades, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name.
This ability modifies swashbuckler weapon training.
Elven Weapon Mastery (Ex): This ability functions like swashbuckler weapon mastery except it also applies to longswords, elven curve blades, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name.
This ability modifies swashbuckler weapon mastery.
Let me know what ya'll think.:)
Lastly, as has been pointed out, halving the bonus damage from precise strike might not be such a good idea. Power attack is an investment and, as previously stated, strength would certainly be a dump stat for this type of character. This is the only thing that I am still unsure about. As it stands, I am thinking that leaving precise strike might be a good idea and simply remove a bonus feat or two. What do you all think?
I don't think precise strike needs to be halved. It's not necessary power-wise, because power attack isn't gonna be such a big bonus. Also, it's sending mixed messages about the intentions of the archetype, and that should be avoided.
I think the change to Panache is genius actually. You're gaining only a fairly small ability with this archetype, so handing only a small thing in, is perfect. This is much better than losing buckler proficiency. Let the longsword and rapier-wielders keep swashing their bucklers. The ECB wielders wouldn't care either way about the proficiency.
One last nitpick:
Quote:
...elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name
This is a bit redundant. I know the ECB needs to be named explicitly somewhere in the archetype, just so it doesn't get overlooked. But I think it's better to spend a few sentences talking about awesome elven duelists that wield curve blades.
Hilariously, this archetype allows you to take slashing grace on rapiers and fencing grace on longswords. Not that it matters because those feats don't stack.
...elven curve blade, and any bladed melee weapon with the word "elven" in its name
This is a bit redundant. I know the ECB needs to be named explicitly somewhere in the archetype, just so it doesn't get overlooked. But I think it's better to spend a few sentences talking about awesome elven duelists that wield curve blades.
Hilariously, this archetype allows you to take slashing grace on rapiers and fencing grace on longswords. Not that it matters because those feats don't stack.
I personally prefer the wording as is. It is a minor "flaw" (for lack of a better word) to clarify a main reason for the archetype.
Hilariously, this archetype allows you to take slashing grace on rapiers and fencing grace on longswords. Not that it matters because those feats don't stack.
I had not considered that with my wording, I'm unfamiliar with fencing grace, I was looking for a way not to need to call out the Ecb for slashing grace. Maybe going back to Volvogg original wording for that.
@Aaron: no, no change is needed because of Fencing/Slashing Grace. They can't stack with each other because they both do the same thing: replace Str to damage with Dex to damage.
Fencing Grace applies only to rapiers, so you can't actually apply it to the ECB. You can apply Slashing Grace to rapiers with this archetype, which is actually a minor benefit, because it means you won't need another book (Advanced Class Origins) to get Fencing Grace.
