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Hi guys.
I've read tons of thread about rogue building,rogue issues and so on but i've found a lot theorycrafting and not that much personal experience.
The goal of this post is to collect some real play tips, like for instances, the trouble you found in your adventure with a certain build (i.e. "TWFighting i found myself in trouble after reaching level X due to ..." or "I think is a good idea spend some skill points in Y because ..." or again "Having an Improved Maneuver is a good/bad idea after/before ..." and so on).
I think it could really be useful to learn wich tactics are good to apply, wich enemies cause the biggest problem, wich stats/skills/feats are handy to have and other things like that.
That because the large majority of the threads i read seems to think that to be good as a rogue you must have an optimized build (and the general consensus is also that there isn't such a build for a class like the one we're talking about). With this thread i hope we could group suggestions and tips&tricks to show that play a rogue could be viable, fun and revarding, even though they're not a strong class.
Disappointment
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Disappointment.
Also, I remember one time a new player of mine rolled up a rogue and failed to put a single point in Disable Device. Boy, did that go well. We ended up having him 'accidentally' being eaten by a dragon so the player could try a character that wasn't objectively garbage.
I'll expand on my first post, in the spirit of the thread.
The two times I tried playing a rogue it was mostly a frustrating and disappointing experience.
I tried to do the archetypal build with TWF and so forth, without having full knowledge of the various methods like two weapon feint and so forth to always achieve sneak attack.
I found I was very reliant on my fellow players, who weren't always willing to put themselves in harms way just to let me deal extra damage. So I had to eat AoO to get into position (and they came in spades since I had a less than stellar AC) just to use my main class feature. Worse yet, my ally would move into position with his big two handed sword and deal as much damage as I did even while Sneak Attacking. I needed Sneak Attack just to keep up. And then I would have to run away from other enemies because my HP would be in the Danger Zone.
For me it was just a struggle to stay relevant and competent with the other melee types in the group. It was decidely some of the least fun I've ever had while playing a character.
For me, now that I've had time and experience I understand how to optimize a rogue so that I don't have to struggle to keep up. But the fact that I have to optimize so hard to maintain relevancy makes me not want to play one.
I'd much rather play a slayer with a rogue hat on and go about my business.
Edit: I will also add that for me, part of having fun is making sure my character is on par with others and pulling their own weight. It's no fun to feel like dead weight, which is mostly how I felt during combat. With a wizard in the group they covered so many skills that the position of skill monkey wasn't particularly useful either. Sure there were some things I could do that others didn't build for, but it felt a lot more like the dregs of the barrel. Left to me because no one else wanted to do it, not because it added much value.
Thanks for both your replies!
Beware, i'm not trying to save a class, i'm just trying to collect experience for players who whant to play a Rogue (now or when PF Unchained cames out). I think by what i read now that you both agree that a rogue is unable to keep up with the damage of other classes (and i think that is part of the class flavour).
So, for those who have played succesfully a rofue, what is the strateguly they adopted to remain useful and not outshined in and out of combat?
About the "out of combat part" which skills must be trained until a certain point (or trained at all), or to what extend Trapfinding is useful for magical Traps?
Thanks in advance
Strictly speaking about combat,
I have seen a player have moderate success with the Scout Archetype and playing their Rogue like a Barbarian. Without all the good parts of being a Barbarian. They really liked charge gimmicks.
In my current game I have a player who is so sick of trying to be a shortbow rogue that they have approached me with a Slayer who bought 2 skill focuses to make up the skill point deficit.
I usually encourage Ninjas to function as Rogues +1 in parties that have highly optimized characters. That or Vivisectionist Alchemists.
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I have a 14th Human Rogue and have been playing with him through the whole Kingmaker AP.
There are two things that i have to mention before describing him:
1) I rolled his stats instead of using point buy (14 STR, 16 (+2) DEX, 15 CON, 16 INT, 11 WIS, 14 CHA)
2) We use a house-rule where, if you have the TWF feat, you can attack as a standard action with your main hand and off hand (must still use a full attack action to get extra attacks)
Our party is composed with a Human Fighter, Half-Elf Druid and Human Summoner (all 14th Lvl).
My experience through the whole campaign has told me that i am able to do more or less the same amount of damage (sometimes even more) that our sword and board Fighter and our Pouncing Eidolon, thanks to the TWF house rule.
This was only to single mobs (since i was unable to flat foot/flank more than one at the time), untill i got our Summoner to cast Improved Invisibility and turned me into a weapon of mass destruction (doing now 9D6 per attack, with two Frost Adamantite Shortswords).
Using also a mix of Fighting Defensive + Crane Style + Shield Spell (Rogue Talent) + Offensive Defensive (Rogue Talent) i am able to get a VERY decent AC, specially when fighting against one or two creatures. So far we had very little encounters that i cannot sneak attack (Oozes, Swarms and Elementals), and for those i always carry some wands/scrolls that will still make me usefull on the fight.
I took Improved Evasion, Hard Minded, the Twist Away and Steadfast Personality feats (Advanced Class Guide) so i am able to shake of most of every effect that allows a save.
Uncanny Dodge has also proved invaluable to not loose my AC to surprise attacks.
Finally, having a wide array of skills i have taken the role of the face of the party and trap disabler, speaking multiple languages that have turned invaluable in some ocassions. The Druid is the ultimate Scout since he has Wild Shape and a tremendous bonus to Perception (+35) and our Summoner focuses on several Knowledges.
Overall, i am quite happy with the PC, but i do understand why the lack of love for the class: I had to optimize every single bit to be able to shine along the rest, including house rules.
I played a rogue and enjoyed it. He was a catfolk with clawblades and the Vicious Claws talent to let him deal 1d8 sneak attack dice damage. He did a ton of damage and went first almost every combat, often letting me land easy blows against flatfooted opponents.
The problem is that it took every single one of his feats and talents to pull off the build. He had Twist Away to shore up his fort saves, he had the TWF feats and Vicious Claws, he could keep his armor class really high with Offensive Defense, but that took 5 feats/talents just to let him make all of his attacks and not die all the time. By the time all of that was done he was a high-DPS, high-mobility character with decent saves. But compared to our inquisitor and paladin who didn't need to invest anything to get potent abilities like judgement and smite the rogue was pretty lackluster. I switched to an alchemist in our campaign and he just has a lot more options. I can do huge burst DPS with bombs, I get tons of skill points, and I can play the support role, all without having to give much up.
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I enjoy rogues for the out of combat opportunities and snake-oiliness of the class... someone with a high sleight of hand and linguistics score, for example, can really make a significant impact out of combat with smart DMs who understand those rules... (the first makes it dead easy to pocket stuff in a market or shop, the latter can make a high int rogue a true mastermind through forgeries of letters and warrants...)
I'm currently running through Rise of the Runelords Anni with a 13th level Arcane Trickster (Rogue 3, Sor 4, AT 6) so my experience isn't exactly straight rogue but I've had a lot of the same problems as described above...Feeling like you contribute.
It's hard to try and get in position (either flank of sneak attack spells) to get that juicy extra damage when the Ranger, Fighter and even Cleric can start mopping up before I even get there.
There's a lot to be said about out of action stuff. With the current party make-up (especially without a full arcane caster) I basically make most of the skill roles and act as party face. It is pretty sweet to have the one trick or skill or spell that really comes in handy when you need it most. But even that is far between and only really happens because of our party. If we had a full Wiz/Sor/whatever I'd be over-shined.
It fun to play him but I wouldn't call him effective by any stretch of the imagination.
I hear all the rogue hate and want to dismiss it, but yeah there's some problems.
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I first tried TWF rogue and it was utterly disappointing. Hardly ever did I hit more than 1 attack while flanking...flurry of misses. The damage was hardly relevant and could never feel relevent. Once things started flying then thr bow damage was just utter crap.
Switched to a brute rogue. Better damage and more consistent. But was too tempted to multiclass into a class that is more worth it.
Sneak attack is partially worthless when any lighting factors or coverage happens. A single blur and your just doing 1d6+5. plenty of creature types immune to sneak attack or have an ability that can just shut you down.
Out of combat. Knowledge checks where destroyed by the other members of the party.
stealth without cover is crap and doesnt work. Disable device was a 50/50. Perception was lower than the clerics who it isn't a class skill for. Basically half assed skills.
All in all I will never play another rogue. Bard, slayer, ranger, investigator, alchemist, inquisitor,or skald all provide a better experiance and does a majority of what the rogue does but BETTER.
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I enjoy rogues for the out of combat opportunities and snake-oiliness of the class... someone with a high sleight of hand and linguistics score, for example, can really make a significant impact out of combat with smart DMs who understand those rules... (the first makes it dead easy to pocket stuff in a market or shop, the latter can make a high int rogue a true mastermind through forgeries of letters and warrants...)
What does the Rogue class contribute to either of those skills? Also Linguistics is the worse skill as Tongues is worth an infinite point investment in it. And Bards get that as a level 2 spell. And to really really rub salt in the wound it can be made Permanent.
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Tengu make good rogues in general. The claw trait allows you to have Claw/Claw/Bite for three attacks per round at full bab. You can add a few more natural weapons via magic items, and you are more accurate than two weapon fighting.
It's the second most effective rogue fighting style, only behind using touch attacks.
Of course, a good rogue is still weak.
I've been playing a halfling rogue in a Mummy's Mask game and have been having quite a bit of success with it. I've been positioning myself as the party buffer, between Butterfly's Sting, Blundering Defense, and Outflank they've enjoyed having me around quite a bit.
I've also found that he's rather good at distracting enemies, and when needed getting in some really great damage.
With rogues, I find the following advice to be useful:
-Small characters + Weapon Finesse (and high Dex) can give you a great to-hit. I hit +10 to hit at 4th level (+5 Dex, +3 Class, +1 Size, +1 MW weapon or better).
-Halflings can have great to amazing AC. When fighting defensively, which I almost always do my AC hits 28 at level 4. (Only take a -2 to hit for +6 Dodge AC for my feat setup, note this also boosts CMD)
-Always take the HP favored class bonus, and try to get a good Con. At some point you're going to hit something big mean and ugly for a lot of damage and it won't like that.
-Max your Acrobatics! Seriously consider taking traits, or even feats to get it higher. Use it to avoid taking AoOs from your movement.
-The first thing I bought was a Wand of Longstrider, it was only 750 gp. +10 Base Speed for 1 hour. That coupled with a decent UMD (Halfings get a Cha bonus) I usually have a speed of at least 30 for "dungeons".
-The Swashbuckler archetype is really good. [Note, I used a Mummy's Mask trait to gain the ability to disarm magical traps. And traded away my Class's ability to do that to pick up Swashbuckler]. If you can pick it up, and think long and hard about what weapon you want to be proficient in. You also get an additional combat trick, and a bonus to acrobatics. I took Kukri as it works well with Outflank and Butterfly's Sting (which also work well with always fighting defensively and Desperate Swing).
-If you can spare it, Intimidate is a good option. It is usually easy to pull off too.
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I've played rogues in 1st Ed, 2nd ed, 3.0 and now Pathfinder.
It is always hard to get the group to allow the rogue to do scouting. Gather information isn't a proble (it is just one roll and info dump), but for really scouting an enemy it is much more difficult. This has been helped by making the Message spell a ca trip -- allows the scouts to include the group in decision making and such. More things that allow a group to work together while one or more members are scouting ahead would be helpful.
There are only a coule of rogue talents that hold much interest to me.
In combat they are weak and constantly looking for help. It used to be that a d6 damage was significant, but not any more.
The stealth rules are also a problem. Without facing, there is no sneaking up behind someone unawares. I don't t know about you, but there are definitely times people have snuck up and surprised me in real life.
Things I would like to see in rogues:
* some tag abilities that other classes don't get.
* talents that give 1/2 skill rank per level. Allow the rogue to keep up with the Inquisitor and some of the others on tag skills.
* automatically allow rogues to select between strength or DEX for combat rather than having to spend their precious feats on it.
* a way to get combat buffs by doing roguish things like drawing a hidden item, acrobatics maneuvers that give others Aid Another bonus in combat, etc. they don't have to be huge DPR sources, but they also shouldn't be a liability because they are so weak in combat.
When the rogue can sneak in, take out the sentries, open the gate, and provide overwatch as the fighters charge in then you've got a good rogue. Look at scenarios like Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, that would make a good play test.
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I've seen three different rogues in Pathfinder games. All three players were extremely unhappy. None of them were effective in combat whatsoever, easily doing the least damage the least accurately while also having the least staying power (lowest AC, HP, and non-Ref saves). At least the full casters had all kinds of special stuff like flight, miss chance, mirror images, etc. And all three took different routes to sucking in a fight. One was the typical TWFer, another tried for switch hitting with a finessed rapier and a shortbow for ambushes, and the third, the most effective but still weak, used a Dwarven Dorn Dergar in two-hands with power attack.
Two of the three also felt useless out of combat. The first time, there was a Bard, an Alchemist, an Inquisitor, and a Wizard all in the party, all of which were better with their skills (the Bard could even disarm magic traps), plus they had utility spells/extracts. She was so unhappy with the character that she dropped her and made an Archer ranger as a replacement. She did literally everything her Rogue could do except suck in combat.
The second, there was a Ranger with all the sneaky stuff, a Paladin with all the social stuff, and there were no traps at all in the game, so, her one unique ability was pointless.
The third time, our whole party made a concerted effort to make the Rogue feel useful. He was the first person to make his character, so we built around him specifically so nobody overshadowed him (we ended up with a sword-and-board Inquisitor, a blasting-focused Flame Oracle, a generalist Sorcerer (I know...), and I was a Druid that carried the party through combats. It was a sandboxy game, so we deliberately went on Rogue-friendly quests into ancient dungeons with lots of traps and locks and let the Rogue be the party face, so, he had a good time despite still being the worst combatant.
The game died out before reaching high levels, but even getting to be the non-combat star (well, as much as was possible, since there are SO many problems skills just can't solve--my Druid took care of those. And several of us actually spotted the traps while he disabled them, since our Wisdom scores were much better), he was still unhappy, since he was not just the weakest combatant, but he also spent most of the time disabled from having such horrible non-Reflex saves. Especially noteworthy was when he was cursed for like a month in-game time, taking a -4 to just about everything. That was miserable--we had to abandon our quest and travel a long time back to a town just to remove the effect. Brutal.
But yeah, I haven't seen anyone fully satisfied with a Rogue in Pathfinder, and in fact, the only time a Rogue had any fun that I saw, it was when the entire party made a concerted effort to give him a good time.
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I enjoy rogues for the out of combat opportunities and snake-oiliness of the class... someone with a high sleight of hand and linguistics score, for example, can really make a significant impact out of combat with smart DMs who understand those rules... (the first makes it dead easy to pocket stuff in a market or shop, the latter can make a high int rogue a true mastermind through forgeries of letters and warrants...)What does the Rogue class contribute to either of those skills? Also Linguistics is the worse skill as Tongues is worth an infinite point investment in it. And Bards get that as a level 2 spell. And to really really rub salt in the wound it can be made Permanent.
True, but this is an underestimated non-magical skill that would probably not be used by bards, clerics and wizards (class skill for those too). What bums me out is that the Investigator has an ability to make forgeries better but not the rogue, as it turns out.... man... can't wait to see the rogue love in unchained... :(
The rogue works just fine in an unoptimized setting, but still seems to fall short of other classes. If you'd like to improve the rogue class I'd suggest giving it full bab.
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I've done 12+ levels (currently in Wardens) of PFS play with a Halfling Filcher Rogue, specializing in unarmed strikes with Sap Master and Kirin Strike lines of feats.
10/19/12/14/10/10 at creation.
Made when I was unaware of level one retraining, so didn't even have Weapon Finesse until level 2.
Level 1 was awful. DR 2/Cold Iron is a pain when you're rolling 1d2. The DR 5/Magic was worse.
Level 2 meant things were being hit. Still wasn't doing much damage unless I could get a flank partner.
Level 3 was Masks of the Living God. Maybe we had a good group, but I felt like I held my own. Tumbling into flanks worked well enough, ad both the Barbarian and I appreciated the +2 flank bonus. A second sneak die and Sap Adept was nice when it mattered.
Levels 4 and 5 was darkness and hardness and blur. Awful place to be a rogue. Even with an Agile Amulet, I was having 5-10 damage shaved off of my damage. Also, getting blinded for the last half of a module was pretty poor. I suppose that was the biggest regret as far as low Fortitude Saves go.
Level 6. Brawling Armor picks up another +2 to hit and damage. Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes for another +1 (on one hit per round). Kirin Style (as a Ninja Trick) to have a bit better defenses. Started putting skill ranks into knowledge.
Level 7. Due to a bit of PFS luck/boons, I'm looking at 26 DEX (19+3(boons)+2(item)+1(level4)), so unarmed strikes are hitting for 1d2+11...still getting shut down by Hardness 10. Sap Master is nice when I get to win initative and have a charge lane...it feels like a you're a cavalier...until the other guys get to act and swarm you an you realize that they're in full plate and have 40 more hit points.
Levels 8-9. At one point here, I fail to disable a trap and am hit simultaneously with greater invisibility, silence, and confusion. Attack nearest creature three consecutive turns...
Kirin Strike lets me add 6 damage to a hit once per round if I can make a knowledge check, putting my maximum somewhere around 1d2+20 (still about half of the barbarian I typically partied with, but at least it's doing 5 damage to the rakshasa we're fighting)...
Level 10. Weapon Snatcher = +35 to Disarm. Over the next level and a half disarm 2(!) swords of life stealing. At one point, win initiative, charge, Sap Master, punch a guard from full to bleeding nonlethally, glare at his partner "Surrender or I draw a weapon." When it's good, it's great to be me.
When it's not so great, you're being grappled by krakens or black tentacles and no amount of Dexterity and Escape Artist mean a damn thing. Or dragons. Dragons are bad. You can't even provide a flank for people who can actually hit them sometime.
Level 11. Ruby Phoenix Tournament. Fistfights, woo! And against humans! Easiest targets. Until some of the "side events." Invisible sorcerers are awful. More dragons. More invisible sorcerers.
Level 12: Wardens of the Reborn Forge. Definitely benefiting from the party makeup- -there's a Battle Herald, a Barbarian, and 2(!) Life Oracles. Sniper goggles and blunt arrows for when I win initiative. High touch AC saves lives sometimes. Other times, less than 100 HP gets me killed 1.5 times over to a crit from a Cannon Golem. "When it's good, it's good...when it's bad, you're getting 2 Breath of Lifes in the same turn."
Analysis:
From about level 8, natural 1s disabled any trap. (And because PFS is PFS we lost treasure because of it at least once). Acrobatics was good enough to avoid AoOs about 75% of the time (nearly 100% against humanoids, about 10% against large things. One for three against dragons). It takes until level 10, but from there Weapon Snatcher (Sleight of Hand to Disarm Checks) was amazing. Using your low iterative to disarm at +25 saved a few fights, was completely useless in others.
Stealing (as per the maneuver) was used all of twice. Negligible.
tl;dr
Nothing new, but when conditions are right, being a rogue was awesome. When conditions were less than ideal, they lose a lot more than other classes. They're extremely fun when things are going right, and extremely frustrating when things go less well.
Would recommend for anyone who likes variance.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I recall a rogue I played. I had the lowest HP and AC of any melee PC at the table. My Fort and Will saves were also lacking. I missed a lot, and when I did hit, I was doing lowish damage unless I could Sneak Attack, in which case I was kind of almost keeping up. The clerics I played with had better Perception, sorcerers and bards and even some barbarians had better social skills, and so forth; I was not the best at any skill except for Climb (I took a talent/trick for a 20ft climb speed), and even with that, any time it would become relevant, other characters just had to whip out a scroll of spider climb and I'm back to being irrelevant.
I quit the character.
I once played alongside a rogue, 11th level, who had invested in Improved Two-Weapon Feint and so forth. As long as he rolled well on the feint, he could do enough damage to keep an enemy's attention. My cleric performed similarly but with reliance on fewer d20 rolls. We also fought a deadly, CON-draining ooze. The rogue was basically worthless (can't do any real damage without Sneak Attack), whereas I just plane shifted it. We also fought a demon. Guess who was the only one to fail their save against chaos hammer? The player jumped through a lot of hoops and connected a lot of dots, and the result was that his rogue was at least able to reasonably contribute a good portion of the time. Meanwhile, everyone else was able to contribute more consistently and more easily.
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Merisel is actually one of the better made pregens IMO.
Oh, that reminds me of the one good experience I had playing a rogue. Unfortunately, the experience could have been replicated with a Commoner: against a caster with no weapon out for AoOs, I used 1st-level Merisiel to make grapple checks at +0, and managed to roll 15+ three times in a row (grapple, pin, tie up).
So it's technically true that I simultaneously played a rogue and contributed to the game, but the two facts were unrelated: an all-10s commoner could have done the exact same thing with those rolls.
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Now, I'm going to say that my group and I are pretty simple most of the time. We still use Goblins as first level fodder, there's usually a kidnapped princess at some point, and it's far smarter to trade riddles with that red dragon than trying to slay it (because the DM statted it as a Great Wyrm and we are level 4, people.)
In fact in alot of our games, our GMs usually only have a maximum of 3 hours of prep time before the game, normally on the day we play. Due to this we have started to cut our allowed books back to the Core Rulebook and MAYBE the Advanced Player's Guide. We don't allow Archetypes for any class. The GMs hardly ever use more than the Bestiary (not the Bestiary 2-4). This has had several interesting effects in our games.
Rogues are relevant again. As are many prestige classes. I had a great time as a knife-throwing base rogue because our party is used to working together. Standard Operating Procedure became: Paladin in Full-Plate with a Tower Shield wades in first and lets enemies surround him; using lay on hands IF necessary. Fighter with breastplate and heavy shield flanks with Paladin; using combat reflexes to keep enemies in check. Knife-throwing rogue gets behind the fighter and throws knives at flanked opponents. (we have a houserule that as long as a creature is flanked, the rogue gets sneak attack. It never made sense to us that a flanked, and thus distracted, opponent would be able to react to a ranged attack from a rogue all that effectively.) The wizard was more of a problem solver and had mostly utility spells. Those are important in our games as well. Most people balk at how often our wizard has Silent Image and Ventriloquism prepared (almost all her slots) and how often it allows us to save our skins.
If you took out the slayer, took out the alchemist, took out archetypes, the rogue works just fine. It's the bloat and the power curve that has killed the rogue. Also, if you are honestly trying to keep up with the barbarian in damage numbers, then why are you playing the rogue in the first place? A barbarian can't really take that money order from the mayor, double it, and pass off the forgery to the actual banker (who has skill focus linguistics just to check for forgeries. Best natural 20 I ever rolled.) It also depends on your campaigns.
I find alot of the people on the boards here, either play Adventure Paths, PFS Scenarios, or Official Modules. That has apparently become the bar to which everything is compared because it is the most "Rules As Written" way to play. We honestly don't have that many house-rules. (We have a different way of handling the dying condition, we treat a natural 20 on a skill check as treating the dice as a 30, and our sneak attack rule.)
In the end, I think several things should just be removed from the collective conscious: The Tier List (I have never seen this in action, but then our party never really optimizes), Archetypes (I don't see a reason for them), and the misconception that you must be optimized, or good in combat to have a FUN game. If you do, then that's personal taste. But it's not necessary to the experience.
I might be a grognard who enjoys trying to parley with the goblin king (who is actually the size of a hill giant from all the food he eats) to get some virgin priestesses rescued, but in the end I believe in one thing. Peace, Love, and Happy Gaming.
I'm a Lemmy's revised Rogue and my experiences are as follows.
More or less, Skills are pretty much auto success and Ive had more than a few shining moments in the game. Combat-wise, I still feel somewhat lackluster. If we're fighting mostly brutes I have trouble keeping up but otherwise I busy myself with bothering the enemy spellcasters. I can retcon some specific gear as a neat trick.
In the end, high level play just simply makes it difficult to play an inherently mundane class, exasperated by the extreme things you do at that level like Plane hopping like crazy.
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we have a houserule that as long as a creature is flanked, the rogue gets sneak attack.
The reason your rogue is doing okay is because of this houserule, not because of any of the things you tried to attribute it to (like limited book selection).
And conversely, the reason other people's rogues aren't doing okay is because of the lack of such a houserule, not because of any of the things you tried to attribute it to (like optimizing).
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In the end, I think several things should just be removed from the collective conscious: The Tier List (I have never seen this in action, but then our party never really optimizes), Archetypes (I don't see a reason for them), and the misconception that you must be optimized, or good in combat to have a FUN game. If you do, then that's personal taste. But it's not necessary to the experience.
The tier list is simply a fact. Certain classes have more options then other classes.
Archetype are a way to vary your class, without multiclassing or prestige classing. Easily the best idea Pathfinder has contributed to the game (though I wish there were still Alternate Class Features...).
You may not need to optimize in a low optimization game, but that says nothing about the "fun" of the game. I personally find weak, easy challenges boring and prefer more challenging encounters, which thus require optimization to contend with.
If you took out the slayer, took out the alchemist, took out archetypes, the rogue works just fine. It's the bloat and the power curve that has killed the rogue. Also, if you are honestly trying to keep up with the barbarian in damage numbers, then why are you playing the rogue in the first place? A barbarian can't really take that money order from the mayor, double it, and pass off the forgery to the actual banker (who has skill focus linguistics just to check for forgeries. Best natural 20 I ever rolled.) It also depends on your campaigns.
The Rogue has no advantage to those skills at all. And Bards beat the pants off Rogue at skills even in Core. There is no power creep, since the strongest stuff in the game is *still* in the CRB. Alchemists, Investigators and Slayers are balance patches to fix a weak class.
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@ Anzyr - The tongues spell doesn't grant literacy or actually being able to make forgeries. (Granted, comp. languages will let you get around being unable to read. Still a lack of forgeries, though. I think forgery is what PDK is talking about.)
Rogues, eh. Okay!
Jake - Kingmaker - halfling rogue who fought with a rapier, went down the improved feint feat line and the dispelling strike talent line. Dispelling strike was something I expected to be crap until I actually saw it in action - it chews up buffs from lowest to highest instead of highest to lowest, meaning it kills AC buffs first. Jake served as the kingdom's Spymaster in Kingmaker. Anyways, the player's rogue was a doofus but his character was a fine scout and could deal a lot of damage - though he did have the benefit of my paladin being cheerfully willing to take risks to get him his flanking. (Also, full attacks from rogues buffed by Aura of Justice are scary.)
I also talked the party into getting me both eyes of the eagle and goggles of minute seeing, after which I never failed to locate and disable a trap.
At 7th, the party's bard picked up Tiny Hut, a.k.a. Sniper Blind as my rogue continued to pick up ranged combat feats. Krom had quickdraw and used throwing weapons. You get a LOT of throwing weapons in Serpent's Skull. Yes, accuracy when dual-wield rapid-shotting throwing weapons is terrible but hey, I had a bard.* That one trident remains my favorite, and I killed the Gorilla King with it. Anyways, the Sniper Blind was really handy for major fights (see invisibility and true seeing don't beat it!), and then I managed to get Sniper Goggles. Sniper goggles are amazing.
At 10th level in rogue I took Skill Mastery as my first advanced talent, because it's bad rolls that kill the scout, and Skill Mastery takes bad rolls out of the equation. IIRC I took improved evasion at 12th, and then at 14th I took Hide in Plain Sight (Underground). Basically all of Books 5 and 6 in Serpent's Skull is underground. Having Hide in Plain Sight was fantastic.
My rogue made no effort at all to be a face man (we had a bard, after all), and no one else in the party could scout as well - the bard's ranger cohort came close but didn't have any items invested in it. So none of the treading on toes issues that seems to come up a lot.
Other career highlights include actually soloing some stretchs of the abandoned city at the end of book 2 (and reversing all of the traps), having numerous hilarious mishaps in book 3 ("I hate this city!" became Krom's battlecry), killing the Gorilla King with a trident (as mentioned above), and soloing various stretches of Book 4, including ambushing and killing a roper before it could react. I did less showboating in books 5 and 6, but remained consistently effective.
Krom was a blast to play, honestly.
* I remember some point later in the campaign when we were checking what weapons everyone had, and the bard simply answered with "My weapon's Krom."
Erin - homebrew campaign - human ninja - She was allowed access to stuff from Tome of Battle, so used tiger claw and desert wind techniques to significantly increase her lethality. Basically confirmed my expectation that a ninja is outright better than a rogue in a fight. Though they lack in other areas. Still amused at the time she set off a stone of alarm and my oracle had to come running over to dispel the damn thing. I don't remember if Erin had power attack; the Tome of Battles stuff she was using (I think she stacked the enchants for +3 to hit when using a stance or a strike) gave her enormous accuracy, and then we had a bard on top of that. Erin didn't miss.
Zedwitz - homebrew campaign - halfling rogue. An NPC the GM gave us so we'd have someone who could deal with traps. Did two-weapon fighting; had good accuracy (yay halfing?) and terrible damage mod (because halfling). Did pretty well - the GM was optimizing the guy in Hero Lab, and kept an eye out for items that granted extra attacks. And then the gunslinger made him a pair of revolvers (yes, the advanced firearm; we captured one from an enemy and reverse engineered it), and my wizard made him sniper goggles. Rogues with improved invisibility, sniper goggles, and a pair of revolvers are scary. And yes, my wizard gave the rogue mind blank once she could.
Rumi - Jade Regent - human rogue. Oh, man, Rumi. Rumi's player was new to Pathfinder, really didn't know what the hell he was doing, and didn't actually care. Rumi dualwielded, but we honestly didn't trust him as a scout because he was a complete screwhead (Like, "we regret bringing you with us to Minkai" screwhead). Around 9th level Rumi decided to become an arcane trickster. He had an int of 10 and a charisma of 12. The GM very generously allowed him to start traded out rogue levels to at least get the class going. Interestingly enough, Rumi worked great in the Ruby Phoenix Tournament (which the GM inserted into Book 5 as a bonus mission), but otherwise, his performance was a mixed bag, and the character was retired after the inquisitor (Rumi's and Inquisitor's players had plotted this out beforehand, but didn't warn the rest of us) decided she had had enough of his crap and actually turned on him and killed him. Due to her timing, this actually led to the inquisitor being retired (i.e., the inquisitor killing Rumi nearly spiraled into a TPK, as she did it in the middle of a fight that had gone incredibly wrong and we desperately needed both of them pulling their weight). Dammit Rumi.
Chuko - Rise of the Runelords - tengu rogue. Took advantage of being good with all of the swords to use an elven curveblade (eventually using a +5 agile dominant phase-locking adamantine elven curveblade, because the party got really lucky in how much time they had between Book 5 and needing to go take care of book 6), and eventually took power attack. Eventually also had Devastating Sneak (aside: though both Chuko's player and I missed the attack penalty; oops). The other melee in that game were a brawler and an abjurer/fighter/eldritch knight. Chuko eventually got an intelligent ring of invisibility, which is a very handy thing for a melee rogue to have. Man, enemies in Rise of the Runelords suck at dealing with invisibility. Anyways, Chuko had the second-best AC in the party (after the eldritch knight) and hit like an angry tyrannosaur. (Was gonna say truck, but dinosaurs have feathers! Whee!) Chuko was basically a Dex-based brute rogue.
Jasmine - homebrew campaign - catfolk ninja/trickster - ongoing mythic campaign. Jasmine vs. an enemy goes very simply - either it's immune to sneak attack, or Jasmine rolls really badly on her attack rolls, or it outright dies. Jasmine's build is a little goofy - the person playing her doesn't have good system mastery (we're 9th level and she's still fighting with claws) and doesn't coordinate well with others (Jasmine normally runs off to do her own thing during combats and doesn't flank without active direction), but Jasmine's mythic abilities more or less solve these issues as long as she's willing to burn mythic power.
I think my Carrion Crown game and my current Reign of Winter game are the only Pathfinder campaigns I've played in or run with no rogue or ninja.
Also - my group uses the houserule that Jericho mentioned, and have been using it since 3.X (and also used it in 4E). It's a damn nice house rule, and it's a shame that by RAW flanking doesn't officially work that way. Sneak attack is really devastating when it works, but there's an absurd number of ways to thwart it. Though it's not as bad in Pathfinder as it was under 3.X...
Hi guys.
I've read tons of thread about rogue building,rogue issues and so on but i've found a lot theorycrafting and not that much personal experience.
The goal of this post is to collect some real play tips, like for instances, the trouble you found in your adventure with a certain build (i.e. "TWFighting i found myself in trouble after reaching level X due to ..." or "I think is a good idea spend some skill points in Y because ..." or again "Having an Improved Maneuver is a good/bad idea after/before ..." and so on).
I think it could really be useful to learn wich tactics are good to apply, wich enemies cause the biggest problem, wich stats/skills/feats are handy to have and other things like that.
That because the large majority of the threads i read seems to think that to be good as a rogue you must have an optimized build (and the general consensus is also that there isn't such a build for a class like the one we're talking about). With this thread i hope we could group suggestions and tips&tricks to show that play a rogue could be viable, fun and revarding, even though they're not a strong class.
There is already more than one thread on this, and don't assume people did not actually experience these things. Much of it came from actual gameplay.
@ Anzyr - The tongues spell doesn't grant literacy or actually being able to make forgeries. (Granted, comp. languages will let you get around being unable to read. Still a lack of forgeries, though. I think forgery is what PDK is talking about.)
Oh I know, that part was supposed to be covered under "Rogues don't do this better then any other class."
As to your Rogues, here's what I got of that:
Krom: Your Bard was awesome.
Erin: Had access to the best book for martials prior to Path of War.
Zedwitz: Had access to advanced firearms and borrowed power from the Wizard.
Rumi: This sounds exactly like how a playing a Rogue should go. Notable in that this is the first one that seems pretty RAW.
Chuko: Sounds about right also, though Devastating Sneak ruling in his favor is a big deal, since Rogues have miserable accuracy, even compared to other 3/4th BAB classes.
Jasmine: Sounds like a normal Rogue ie. often completely useless.
Tack on the houserule your group is using (assuming it applies to all of those) and this speaks even worse of the Rogue.
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There is already more than one thread on this, and don't assume people did not actually experience these things. Much of it came from actual gameplay.Hi guys.
I've read tons of thread about rogue building,rogue issues and so on but i've found a lot theorycrafting and not that much personal experience.
The goal of this post is to collect some real play tips, like for instances, the trouble you found in your adventure with a certain build (i.e. "TWFighting i found myself in trouble after reaching level X due to ..." or "I think is a good idea spend some skill points in Y because ..." or again "Having an Improved Maneuver is a good/bad idea after/before ..." and so on).
I think it could really be useful to learn wich tactics are good to apply, wich enemies cause the biggest problem, wich stats/skills/feats are handy to have and other things like that.
That because the large majority of the threads i read seems to think that to be good as a rogue you must have an optimized build (and the general consensus is also that there isn't such a build for a class like the one we're talking about). With this thread i hope we could group suggestions and tips&tricks to show that play a rogue could be viable, fun and revarding, even though they're not a strong class.
Also, the OP needs to be careful to not fall into the "gameplay trumps math/theory" trap. Tellers of anecdotes tend to forget or gloss over things like uber-buffing houserules (like getting Sneak Attack at range when someone else does the dangerous part of actually flanking) or ridiculous rolled stats. Theory doesn't tend to have these misleading accidents.
Also - my group uses the houserule that Jericho mentionedYou really should mention something that massive up front, instead of tacking it on at the end. That changes the entire context of the discussion.
Eh, not really. In most cases the rogue still does the flanking themselves, or is receiving magical support to gain concealment. Situations where all of the melee gets to dogpile a single foe (so the rogue can just come in from the side) usually don't come up until the fight's functionally already won and we're in clean up.
It certainly helps, but in my experience it's not the radical game changer you clearly feel it to be.
Also, the OP needs to be careful to not fall into the "gameplay trumps math/theory" trap. Tellers of anecdotes tend to forget or gloss over things like uber-buffing houserules (like getting Sneak Attack at range when someone else does the dangerous part of actually flanking) or ridiculous rolled stats. Theory doesn't tend to have these misleading accidents.There is already more than one thread on this, and don't assume people did not actually experience these things. Much of it came from actual gameplay.Hi guys.
I've read tons of thread about rogue building,rogue issues and so on but i've found a lot theorycrafting and not that much personal experience.
The goal of this post is to collect some real play tips, like for instances, the trouble you found in your adventure with a certain build (i.e. "TWFighting i found myself in trouble after reaching level X due to ..." or "I think is a good idea spend some skill points in Y because ..." or again "Having an Improved Maneuver is a good/bad idea after/before ..." and so on).
I think it could really be useful to learn wich tactics are good to apply, wich enemies cause the biggest problem, wich stats/skills/feats are handy to have and other things like that.
That because the large majority of the threads i read seems to think that to be good as a rogue you must have an optimized build (and the general consensus is also that there isn't such a build for a class like the one we're talking about). With this thread i hope we could group suggestions and tips&tricks to show that play a rogue could be viable, fun and revarding, even though they're not a strong class.
Remember normally: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are different.
When discussing balancing changes however: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, your experiences lie to you.
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Eh, not really. In most cases the rogue still does the flanking themselves, or is receiving magical support to gain concealment.Also - my group uses the houserule that Jericho mentionedYou really should mention something that massive up front, instead of tacking it on at the end. That changes the entire context of the discussion.
What difference does that make? Or are you thinking something like blur will let him get Sneak Attack?
It certainly helps, but in my experience it's not the radical game changer you clearly feel it to be.
A big part of the rogue's problem is that his low AC/HP/Fort make melee very dangerous for him, yet Sneak Attack requires him to be there. Remove the pressure to get into melee, and you vastly reduce the relevance of those elements.
Rogues are one of the worst PC classes in Pathfinder, to put it charitably. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing them. Just know what you're getting into.
Know your GM. How tough are your opponents? How many battles/ day typically?- on the extreme end more battles helps Rogues who can do their tricks all day long typically. Are skills a big part of the game? (although other classes will be better at that, but you should be pretty good).
Know your fellow PCs. How supportive will they be as flank buddies? Can they stealth as well you and/or is sneaking around a major part of your collective game? (-again other classes will be better at stealth, but you should be pretty good).
If there's anything like unfavorable answers, prepare for major frustrations and constant disappointment. If you like playing the game on what's essentially "hard mode," go for it.
@ Anzyr - The tongues spell doesn't grant literacy or actually being able to make forgeries. (Granted, comp. languages will let you get around being unable to read. Still a lack of forgeries, though. I think forgery is what PDK is talking about.)
Oh I know, that part was supposed to be covered under "Rogues don't do this better then any other class."
As to your Rogues, here's what I got of that:
Krom: Your Bard was awesome.
Erin: Had access to the best book for martials prior to Path of War.
Zedwitz: Had access to advanced firearms and borrowed power from the Wizard.
Rumi: This sounds exactly like how a playing a Rogue should go. Notable in that this is the first one that seems pretty RAW.
Chuko: Sounds about right also, though Devastating Sneak ruling in his favor is a big deal, since Rogues have miserable accuracy, even compared to other 3/4th BAB classes.
Jasmine: Sounds like a normal Rogue ie. often completely useless.
Tack on the houserule your group is using (assuming it applies to all of those) and this speaks even worse of the Rogue.
Sigh, really?
It's a team game, Anzyr. People using buff spells on each other is how it's actually supposed to be played.
It's a team game, Anzyr. People using buff spells on each other is how it's actually supposed to be played.
Not if one person isn't contributing anything and is just leeching resources. Then it's carrying someone and that's a pain.
By that logic you might as well just play an Expert to be a skill monkey and rely on everyone else for buffs so you contribute in combat. Guess Experts must be properly balanced with Rogues and this thread is unnecessary.
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Rogues are never going to be the best in combat.
No one expect them to. But most of us find that they can't do anything in combat, and combat is a very large part of the game.
The rogue talents are also pretty good. They are varied to do anything and they also mesh well together in combinations.
Really? I hadn't noticed.
Blur wouldn't, but anything granting total concealment, like the before-mentioned tiny hut would.
What difference does that make? Or are you thinking something like blur will let him get Sneak Attack?
Yep. Tiny hut, greater invisibility, etc. Give the rogue total concealment and watch the blood spurts.
Of the rogues I talked about, Zedwitz and Krom are the only ones who actually fought at range - and both were originally melee characters who later shifted to range. (Zedwitz started using guns around 12th or 13th level or so,)
Not having to flank is big for ranged based rogues, and for melee based rogues it allows for them to come in at the tale end of a flank and/or not be targeted primarily.
If a monster is flanked it is more likely to try to remove a flanker to get rid of the bonus to the attack roll. That makes the rogue less likely to be attacked which boost his survival rate.