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Norgorber, Neutral Evil god of poison, thieves, secrets and murder has four aspects to himself:
Blackfingers: Patron of poisoners and herbalists.
The Grey Master: Patron of Thieves.
The Reaper of Reputation: Patron of politicians and other harbingers of social secrets and information.
Father Skinsaw: Patron of murder.
Furthermor, Norgorber's realm is located in the underbelly of Axis (Lawful Neutral).
I can't help but get the feeling that if it weren't for the whole murder thing, Norgorber would probably be more deserving of the neutral title than a lot of neutral deities.
Nethys doesn't give a s!*+e if you blow up a village, as long as it's with magic. Abadar doesn't care if you blow up nature, as long as there's a city built on top of it. Calistria allows and encourages just about anything in the name of vengeance. Gozreh will arbitrarily smash things with storms. Gorum is the archetypical "No dude, I'm chaotic neutral, my character would totally do that" murderhobo.
Irori's alright for neutral deities.
Norgorber without Skinsaw is -
Blackfingers: Poison's alright, whether it's inquiring how it affects the body, revenge, or clearing pests.
Reaper of Reputation: Expose or conceal the truth as you see fit to ensure things run smoothly.
The Grey Master: Take people's stuff while they're unaware, as opposed to pillaging them in war, or conjuring a storm to smash their nice things.
Compared to the rest of the deities, Norgorber is like the Jesse Pinkman of evil deities. He's got baggage, and lets it drag him down to some pretty darn lows.
Meanwhile his evil aligned peers are:
Asmodeus: Enslave all mortal life for having the audacity of having free will.
Zon-Kuthon: Inflict pain on everything because pain is the natural state of existence in the universe, any notion to the contrary is childish naivete that needs to be corrected.
Urgathoa: Never die, even if you inflict unending suffering and pain upon millions of others over the course of your overly-long existence.
Lamashtu: Inflict everyone with crippling deformities and mental debilitations, preferably by monster rape, and repeat.
Rovagug: Literally wants to destroy everything. It's in the book.
Well, he's also the God of Greed, which tends to be viewed as the domain of evil.
The Anaphexia assassins revere the Reaper of Reputations.
As a personality (as opposed to a religion), he also seems to have chronic back-stabbing disorder. He also associates closely with evil gods like the mantis god and Gyronna.
Herbalists can revere him, but it's poison that's in his portfolio, not herbalism itself.
Dwelling beneath Axis I think says more about Axis and law than Norgorber. Mainly that Axis is a valuable place to dwell beneath because of all the potential information it might have, and the nature of law such that the more tightly it's wound, the more it can be subverted.
From Inner Sea Gods:
Blackfingers: represents unethical experimentation for the sake of knowledge and the harmful use of chemistry... practice vivisection and surgery without anesthetic.
It's not just Skinsaw that's overtly evil in nature, and while the Reaper and the Gray aren't as explicit - they still bend towards nefarious purpose in their implementation.
I'm certainly on board with the idea that Norgorber's not as bad as the various frothing at the mouth psychopathic destroy everything that most of the other evil gods are. I even think it's reasonable for plenty of neutral aligned characters to worship him. But if you do, you should probably keep that a secret since it's mostly the psycho murder cultists that worship him openly.
Poison use has long been one of the "benchmark" evil acts.
So, yes, if skinsaw and blackfingers are both out, he does look more neutral. But that's actually half of his aspects... so I'd say he's rightly evil.
Blackfingers: Poison's alright, whether it's inquiring how it affects the body, revenge, or clearing pests.
When I hear the term poisoner I think murderer who uses poison, not pest control. The term for a rat poisoner would be exterminator.
I'm certainly on board with the idea that Norgorber's not as bad as the various frothing at the mouth psychopathic destroy everything that most of the other evil gods are. I even think it's reasonable for plenty of neutral aligned characters to worship him. But if you do, you should probably keep that a secret since it's mostly the psycho murder cultists that worship him openly.
I mostly come down here. I don't think that as a god he shouldn't be evil, but I think he probably has a higher-than-normal proportion of nonevil worshippers/devotees. Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.
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When I hear the term poisoner I think murderer who uses poison, not pest control. The term for aBlackfingers: Poison's alright, whether it's inquiring how it affects the body, revenge, or clearing pests.
ratgnome poisoner would be exterminator.
Killing with poison isn't really evil, though. Poison Use is possessed by plenty of non-evil classes.
That said, discounting one of Norborker's four aspects and saying the rest of him is neutral is like saying, "Y'know, aside from Urgathoa's obsession with the undead, she seems like a nice enough goddess with a healthy appetite."
Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.
Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
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Looks like Norgorber has a lot of hidden clauses (no surprise in retrospect) on how his portfolio should be used. He's a deity where his "How" rather than "What" nets him squarely in the evil park even excluding Skinsaw aspects.
Still inclined to Zanthrax and Golux's view that he's less frothing mad than other evil deities.
Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
I won't say that all of the people I indicated would go to Norgorber's realm in the afterlife, most of them probably wouldn't. That said, I will point to the Iconic Alchemist, who is a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Norgorber, as an official example.
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I won't say that all of the people I indicated would go to Norgorber's realm in the afterlife, most of them probably wouldn't. That said, I will point to the Iconic Alchemist, who is a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Norgorber, as an official example.Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
I think at least one developer's gone on record saying that Damiel may worship Norgorber but he's not a very GOOD worshiper of Norgorber. Just because you're not a bad person and pay lip service to an evil deity doesn't automatically make the deity not evil.
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I think at least one developer's gone on record saying that Damiel may worship Norgorber but he's not a very GOOD worshiper of Norgorber. Just because you're not a bad person and pay lip service to an evil deity doesn't automatically make the deity not evil.I won't say that all of the people I indicated would go to Norgorber's realm in the afterlife, most of them probably wouldn't. That said, I will point to the Iconic Alchemist, who is a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Norgorber, as an official example.Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
Or makes you a proper worshiper of such deity.
I am pretty sure that there quite a few nobles in Cheliax who, pretty much, have no choice than tell and show that they worship Asmodeus but in private have another deity as their patron deity. The most famous example of that is the count Varian Jeggare, who as the patriarch of one the most wealthy and bigger cheliaxian noble houses can't afford to not show/tell people that he doesn't worship Asmodeus but who in secret worships Desna.
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I won't say that all of the people I indicated would go to Norgorber's realm in the afterlife, most of them probably wouldn't. That said, I will point to the Iconic Alchemist, who is a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Norgorber, as an official example.Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
And as a chaotic neutral worshiper of a neutral evil deity... Damiel is likely setting himself up for a VERY unpleasant time in the afterlife. Here's hoping he either goes full neutral evil before he dies (and thus earns a good role in the Norgorberian afterlife) or changes religions (and thus escapes an unpleasant afterlife of punishment for being a poor worshiper of Norgorber)!
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And as a chaotic neutral worshiper of a neutral evil deity... Damiel is likely setting himself up for a VERY unpleasant time in the afterlife. Here's hoping he either goes full neutral evil before he dies (and thus earns a good role in the Norgorberian afterlife) or changes religions (and thus escapes an unpleasant afterlife of punishment for being a poor worshiper of Norgorber)!I won't say that all of the people I indicated would go to Norgorber's realm in the afterlife, most of them probably wouldn't. That said, I will point to the Iconic Alchemist, who is a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Norgorber, as an official example.Rogues, alchemists, and investigators especially would be inclined to worship him non-maliciously, but note also that they aren't divine casters, so it doesn't matter if the god they venerate is a step or two off on the alignment chart.Not exactly, while it's true that a character can say or even believe that serves that deity, he's either to everyone else and/or lying to himself. That's because if you are two steps away from the deity's alignment then you pretty much disagree with all of it's tenets and overall philosophy. In addition there is the issue of patronage, you can't really expect a deity whose alignment is so different than your own to help/guide/take your soul to his afterlife and without a deity's patronage you never know what may happen to your soul.
Or he ends up going into the Maelstrom. That can't be overly pleasant either. Not even Calistria and Gorum set up their haunts there.
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Looks like Norgorber has a lot of hidden clauses (no surprise in retrospect) on how his portfolio should be used. He's a deity where his "How" rather than "What" nets him squarely in the evil park even excluding Skinsaw aspects.
Still inclined to Zanthrax and Golux's view that he's less frothing mad than other evil deities.
The only evil deity that might be mad is Zon-Kuthon (unless he's right and everyone else is a fool). Asmdeus, Lamashtu and Rogagug are inhumane, but they have never been human to begin with.
Still inclined to Zanthrax and Golux's view that he's less frothing mad than other evil deities.
Well, sure. It's hard to be a competent god of secrets and assassination when you're frothing mad. Subtlety is a necessity.
And as a chaotic neutral worshiper of a neutral evil deity... Damiel is likely setting himself up for a VERY unpleasant time in the afterlife. Here's hoping he either goes full neutral evil before he dies (and thus earns a good role in the Norgorberian afterlife) or changes religions (and thus escapes an unpleasant afterlife of punishment for being a poor worshiper of Norgorber)!Or he ends up going into the Maelstrom. That can't be overly pleasant either. Not even Calistria and Gorum set up their haunts there.
Oh, I dunno. The soul of this Damiel mortal sounds like a nice seed to nuturewarp into a baby protean. We'll have to make a note to look him up when he expires.
He is the god of politicians. Forget about Skinsaw...it is The Reaper of Reputation that I think gives him his evil mojo.
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It's not that what Norgorber represents is evil, so much as the WAY he represents it is evil. For some of his aspects, particularly the Skinsaw aspect, it's difficult to not see that as evil. But for the others... keep in mind that when Norgorber or his faithful handle secrets or greed, they do so in ways that are cruel and sinister.