Rob's APs vs James' APs *spoilers*


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NOTE: This isn't to start a debate.
Note 2: Probably need a better title.

something I have noticed about like, dislike, difficulty, etc...

When people say something about an AP and compare it to another AP by the same 'author'

Ex: Someone has problem X with Iron Gods, the person mention having similar problem with Jade Regent, Shattered Star, Wrath of the Righteous, and/or etc...

or, Someone dislike Y about Mummy's Mask, and disliked similar things in Skull & Shackles, Reign of Winter and/or etc...

So, I'm guessing some of us have an harder time with the works of one author more than the other.


I dont get what your point is, are you trying to start a popularity contest....
help me out a bit more please:)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

By definition, every post on a *discussion* forum is made to invite a debate of sorts.


captain yesterday wrote:

I dont get what your point is, are you trying to start a popularity contest....

help me out a bit more please:)

People who have likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with an AP will often have similar likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with other APs by the same author.

It also looks like some people have an easier time with Rob's APs while some have an easier time with James'.

The Exchange

Alex G St-Amand wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

I dont get what your point is, are you trying to start a popularity contest....

help me out a bit more please:)

People who have likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with an AP will often have similar likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with other APs by the same author.

It also looks like some people have an easier time with Rob's APs while some have an easier time with James'.

I think I get where you come from. Every author has a certain style and certain preferences and develops certain patterns. So it's quite possible that a problem you have with a specific work can also arise in other works of the same author.

And it's certainly due to "Paizo" authors like James and Erik, Pett, Vaughn and Logue (to name but a few) which made me into a fan of all things Paizo and till today their name on a product's cover is enough to pique my interest.

So certainly this could go in the other direction as well. Luckily I don't think that I had this problem with any of the authors working for Paizo so far, but there are authors out there whose work I've got problems with.


Alex G St-Amand wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

I dont get what your point is, are you trying to start a popularity contest....

help me out a bit more please:)

People who have likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with an AP will often have similar likes, dislikes, dificulties, fun, etc with other APs by the same author.

It also looks like some people have an easier time with Rob's APs while some have an easier time with James'.

I havent noticed this.

Can you give some examples? (Not of people - of complaints which are common to Wrath of the Righteous, Iron Gods, Jade Regent, etcetera....) Without knowing the pattern and/or backstory I think I'd be unable to distinguish between which of the two were the lead developer.

Grand Lodge

Different authors have different styles, and fans who end up consuming both anticipating thematically, structurally and tonally identical products will be disappointed, yes.

However I don't think this conversation can really yield anything particularly insightful unless we had:

A) List of AP's penned by James and Rob.
B) List of general misgivings, disappointments and complaints about each listing.

Of course I doubt these things could be brought to bear without mud-slinging to potentially occur, as people rise to defend their preferred AP's, or even authors.

I for one would welcome the intellectual exercise of dissecting this matter, as it helps narrow down what I'd like to make for my next set of AP purchases.


Ms. Pleiades wrote:

However I don't think this conversation can really yield anything particularly insightful unless we had:

A) List of AP's penned by James and Rob.

They alternate - although I can't remember when Rob started (Skulls and Shackles, I think?).

So the last few are:

Jade Regent (James)
Skull and Shackles (Rob, I think?)
Shattered Star (James)
Reign of Winter (Rob)
Wrath of the Righteous (James)
Mummy's Mask (Rob)
Iron Gods (James)

I dont really know what they do, but I believe it's to sketch the broad outline of the story, give each AP author the plot outline for their particular instalment and then act as 'head developer/cat herder' as the six issues work their way through from vague concept to published.

Personally, I'm not seeing much of a common thread with complaints on the boards common to all James' or all of Rob's APs. I think one's antipathy or otherwise to an AP is much more to do with its chosen theme than with who is developing it.


Rob started at the end of kingmaker I believe, tho the first few he worked on it was more learning the ropes besides James:)


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captain yesterday wrote:
Rob started at the end of kingmaker I believe, tho the first few he worked on it was more learning the ropes besides James:)

Cheers. So I guess I should add Carrion Crown to "his" list and Serpent's Skull to James's (James'?)

I'm still not seeing any obvious common list of problems/greatness, to be frank. I love some that each of them have done and have a lesser opinion about some others. I still hold the view that "campaign theme" is the overriding factor in what people like. I'd personally also list "AP authors" as a factor more important than the AP developer.

I'd guess they work pretty closely together anyhow.


I would also like to point out they just develop the story and tie it all together, there are reasons why people like Richard Pett and Crystal Frasier are listed as authors and James and Rob and Adam are the developers:)

and i think Wes had as much to do with Carrion Crown:) tho both Rob and James are listed as lead designers for that, so yes i'd assume all the APs between Kingmaker and Skull & Shackles as a collaborative effort (S&S i believe was Rob's first go as a solo lead designer
and lets not forget everything Adam Daigle does as a designer, he works in that Dept too:)

Grand Lodge

Judging from the list, it looks like Rob gets a lot more of the Heavily Themed AP's, while James gets ones that are much more tied to the campaign setting lore.

Jade Regent: Lots of stuff that needs to be tied together in Tian Xia.

Shattered Star: It's a sequel to Rise of the Runelords, lots of stuff to tie together.

Wrath of the Righteous: Again, being such a central part of the Age of Lost Omens, something to do with the Worldwound needs to tie together a lot of things as you have nations from all over the Inner Sea getting involved.

Iron Gods: Numeria and its crashed starship have been around in the campaign setting for ages, chances are that there were memos about it early on that James could have had more time to stew in his head-cauldron with. Although it is heavily themes sci-fi/magi-tech, so it falls out of the pattern.

Skull and Shackles: Pirate Theme!
Reign of Winter: Eastern Europe Fantasy Theme!
Mummy's Mask: Ancient Egyptian Theme!

Maybe this is part of the reason for the seeming divide? Personally I like the ideas behind S&S, WotR, Shattered Star and RoW, but have yet to purchase/read through/play any of them.


Ms. Pleiades wrote:

Judging from the list, it looks like Rob gets a lot more of the Heavily Themed AP's, while James gets ones that are much more tied to the campaign setting lore.

Jade Regent: Lots of stuff that needs to be tied together in Tian Xia.

Shattered Star: It's a sequel to Rise of the Runelords, lots of stuff to tie together.

Wrath of the Righteous: Again, being such a central part of the Age of Lost Omens, something to do with the Worldwound needs to tie together a lot of things as you have nations from all over the Inner Sea getting involved.

Iron Gods: Numeria and its crashed starship have been around in the campaign setting for ages, chances are that there were memos about it early on that James could have had more time to stew in his head-cauldron with. Although it is heavily themes sci-fi/magi-tech, so it falls out of the pattern.

Skull and Shackles: Pirate Theme!
Reign of Winter: Eastern Europe Fantasy Theme!
Mummy's Mask: Ancient Egyptian Theme!

Interesting...

Rob's next: Giantslayer.

James' next: Hell's Rebels.


thats really over-simplifiing it isn't it?
Baba Yaga has as much to do with Golarion as Jade Regent or WotR (by the way i believe Rob was heavily involved in Jade Regent)
you really have to look at it more individually rather then as person X was in charge i should totally get it!


Ms. Pleiades wrote:
Personally I like the ideas behind S&S, WotR, Shattered Star and RoW, but have yet to purchase/read through/play any of them.

except for Wrath i highly recommend all of those, every single one (except Wrath) is super fun:)


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Ms. Pleiades wrote:

Judging from the list, it looks like Rob gets a lot more of the Heavily Themed AP's, while James gets ones that are much more tied to the campaign setting lore.

Jade Regent: Lots of stuff that needs to be tied together in Tian Xia.

Shattered Star: It's a sequel to Rise of the Runelords, lots of stuff to tie together.

Wrath of the Righteous: Again, being such a central part of the Age of Lost Omens, something to do with the Worldwound needs to tie together a lot of things as you have nations from all over the Inner Sea getting involved.

Iron Gods: Numeria and its crashed starship have been around in the campaign setting for ages, chances are that there were memos about it early on that James could have had more time to stew in his head-cauldron with. Although it is heavily themes sci-fi/magi-tech, so it falls out of the pattern.

Skull and Shackles: Pirate Theme!
Reign of Winter: Eastern Europe Fantasy Theme!
Mummy's Mask: Ancient Egyptian Theme!

Maybe this is part of the reason for the seeming divide? Personally I like the ideas behind S&S, WotR, Shattered Star and RoW, but have yet to purchase/read through/play any of them.

I'm not so sure. I remember Shattered Star being sold as a "dungeon themed" AP (for example). And I'd argue that Skull and Shackles is just as much about the shackles and the eye of abendengo as it is about pirates. Osirion has been a central part of the setting since the beginning (even featuring as a PF faction) so mummy's mask would fit more in the "campaign setting lore" category than the "themed" category, imo.

I think the distinctions are somewhat arbitrary and only really appear clear cut once you know who did which.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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The foreword for Souls for Smuggler's Shiv indicates that it was Rob's first AP... just a heads-up. :)


I'm a fan of both.

Iron Gods and Wrath of the Righteous are the only things I really dislike, but Jade Regent is also from James, and that is still one of my favorites.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

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To give a little clarity here based on my understanding of the roles, Rob and James are like a combination of Producer and Director on a movie set. So you're going to see styles and themes iconic to them both, just as you would be able to tell a James Cameron film from a Wes Anderson film. However, they're both working in concert with one-another as well and there's more collaboration/cooperation than might be visible on the surface.

Both Rob and James cooperate to outline the broad strokes of the APs and do any final revision necessary once the individual writers on APs hand in their turnovers (prior to editors getting them, I believe. Editors feel free to correct me on that.)

While you can see themes and styles common to each, it's not quite a fair assessment to say all James' APs swing one way and Rob's another, since there's more cross-pollination than readily apparent. Hope that clarifies things some!

The Exchange

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I actually do feel there's a significant difference between Robs' APs ajd James' APs.

Speaking broadly, Rob tends to have APs that are more like strings of weakly connected modules, while with James there's usually a stronger continuing story from adventure to adventure. Consider Carrion Crown as the most classic example I can find of this: It's a "freak of the week" AP where each adventure pitches the PCs against a different horror trope, with a very loose meta-plot that barely comes into play for 95% of the time.

The same pattern repeats itself in Reign of Winter to a somewhat lesser degree (parts #3 onwards). Skull and Shackles I haven't read in full, and same goes for Mummy's Mask, but Against The Giants seems very much like it will follow the pattern.

With the James AP, I often feel a much stronger sense of direction. There are obviously some exception (such as Shattered Star, Kingmaker, and to some degree Jade Regent), but generally speaking he has much more in the way of recurring NPCs and adventures that make a more cohesive story.

I never finished reading Mummy's Mask and Skull and Shackles despite really liking their genres (pirates and ancient egypt). I suspect there's a reason - I simply prefer Jacbos' style. It's not that I can't enjoy any of Robs' stuff (Reign of Winter is incredible), but I am certainly more attracted to story oriented AP than to theme oriented APs. Some people are fine with just getting to play pirates and don't really want there to be much of a story (or even prefer not to have one forced upon them), but that's not really what I'm looking for in Pathfinder.
Of course, it might just be my imagination. The reason I suspect it's a bit more tangible than that is that I only learned that there are two different lead developers recently. When I did, and looked at the way the APs were split among them, things clicked for me. One style just resonated better for me.

Silver Crusade

Myth Lord wrote:

I'm a fan of both.

Iron Gods and Wrath of the Righteous are the only things I really dislike, but Jade Regent is also from James, and that is still one of my favorites.

Oddly enough, I'm a fan of both as well and those specific APs are three of my absolute favorites. :)

(playing WotR and Jade Regent, reading Iron Gods, loving all three)


Mikaze wrote:
Myth Lord wrote:

I'm a fan of both.

Iron Gods and Wrath of the Righteous are the only things I really dislike, but Jade Regent is also from James, and that is still one of my favorites.

Oddly enough, I'm a fan of both as well and those specific APs are three of my absolute favorites. :)

(playing WotR and Jade Regent, reading Iron Gods, loving all three)

I love Jade Regent because asian mythology is one of my favorite mythologies and I love the encounters and twists in the book.

Iron G's is about a thing I really dispise so I didn't even try it. WOTR is something I could have liked, but I really didn't liked the encounters in the book and the other articles in the books, also didn't like a single bestiary entry spare for the water leaper.


Maybe one of these days you'll list why you "despise" and "hate" a series of books, until then your "opinion" is just ignorance

Silver Crusade

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Myth Lord wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Myth Lord wrote:

I'm a fan of both.

Iron Gods and Wrath of the Righteous are the only things I really dislike, but Jade Regent is also from James, and that is still one of my favorites.

Oddly enough, I'm a fan of both as well and those specific APs are three of my absolute favorites. :)

(playing WotR and Jade Regent, reading Iron Gods, loving all three)

I love Jade Regent because asian mythology is one of my favorite mythologies and I love the encounters and twists in the book.

Iron G's is about a thing I really dispise so I didn't even try it. WOTR is something I could have liked, but I really didn't liked the encounters in the book and the other articles in the books, also didn't like a single bestiary entry spare for the water leaper.

Whoa. I mean, different strokes for different folks I suppose. Still, that does seem a tad strongly stated, don't y-

mouse accidentally hovers over the name, summoning the pop-up

Ah.

Well, this does mean I've definitely found my way back to the right Paizo forums! :D


I *love* iron gods! My wife has gone from *willing participant* to full on super excited driver of the story, Priceless!


captain yesterday wrote:
Maybe one of these days you'll list why you "despise" and "hate" a series of books, until then your "opinion" is just ignorance

His opinion of any AP is solely reliant on what monsters are in the bestiary, and what monsters get art. It's not actually based on storyline, encounter design, or mechanics used.


You know I suspected he was someone familiar. I know a lot of people do not have a preference for Iron Gods for their own reasons, but I always remembered a single person who went out of their way to despise it for reasons I could not fathom. When the Numeria: Land of Fallen Stars book was announced, this person said "rip fantasy". I'm sure fantasy will be permanently destroyed from existence when the next bestiary comes out dripping with aliens and robots. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, onto more relevant things: I honestly can't say I've noticed a difference in style between the two until the OP even brought it up. The only differences I actually notice are in-between the authors of the adventure modules themselves, not the overarching story. Hmm...I should start paying attention to the differences between the overarching styles of APs now. Although I gotta say, through some strange quirk, the APs that James is behind appeal to me the most in terms of themes.


MMCJawa wrote:
His opinion of any AP is solely reliant on what monsters are in the bestiary, and what monsters get art. It's not actually based on storyline, encounter design, or mechanics used.

If I recall correctly, he has an intense dislike of the entire category of monsters known as demons. (Or maybe it was fiends or outsiders in general?) Which would make APs like Wrath of the Righteous more than a bit unpalatable to him.


Bellona wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
His opinion of any AP is solely reliant on what monsters are in the bestiary, and what monsters get art. It's not actually based on storyline, encounter design, or mechanics used.
If I recall correctly, he has an intense dislike of the entire category of monsters known as demons. (Or maybe it was fiends or outsiders in general?) Which would make APs like Wrath of the Righteous more than a bit unpalatable to him.

That is actually Dragon78, not me. I just don't like WOTR because I don't like the encounters in the storyline and the overal story and bestiaries. I do like me some demons.

Quote:
His opinion of any AP is solely reliant on what monsters are in the bestiary, and what monsters get art. It's not actually based on storyline, encounter design, or mechanics used.

You are only half right, while the bestiaries and artworks have the highest priority for me personally, I still enjoy reading the entire AP. I really love the descriptions encounters get, I also enjoy reading about the NPC's and items. So I do enjoy storline/encounter design.


Myth Lord wrote:

You are only half right, while the bestiaries and artworks have the highest priority for me personally, I still enjoy reading the entire AP. I really love the descriptions encounters get, I also enjoy reading about the NPC's and items. So I do enjoy storline/encounter design.

If that's the case, why are you not willing to give Iron Gods a read through? Are the science fiction themes really that off-putting to miss out on the potential encounters or characters or items (some items of which are distinctly not technological) a chance?

I mean I know this is off-topic from the OP but I'm genuinely curious. What about IG, other than its themes, turn you off to it so much?


Neongelion wrote:
Myth Lord wrote:

You are only half right, while the bestiaries and artworks have the highest priority for me personally, I still enjoy reading the entire AP. I really love the descriptions encounters get, I also enjoy reading about the NPC's and items. So I do enjoy storline/encounter design.

If that's the case, why are you not willing to give Iron Gods a read through? Are the science fiction themes really that off-putting to miss out on the potential encounters or characters or items (some items of which are distinctly not technological) a chance?

I mean I know this is off-topic from the OP but I'm genuinely curious. What about IG, other than its themes, turn you off to it so much?

I said this like a million times already, but here goes.

Spoiler as its off-topic:
1) Don't like sci-fi mixed with fantasy, at least when the fantasy is of the medieval times I don't like robots and machines running around there.

2) Don't like computers, robots, space-ships, lasers and chainsaws mixed in with pixies, minotaurs and even with aberrations. Aliens are fine with me as they can be without technology, just look at Aboleth, Gibbering mouther and other such aberrations. Rather see Clockworks over Robots.

3) I don't want to buy Iron Gods because I fear that if it gets too many buys more SF themes will soon follow, and SF-type AP's mean no mythological monsters in the bestiary-part of the books.
So far I didn't really see any interesting monsters being listed in the Iron God Ap topics, mostly robots and bizarre aliens which are all posted on Deviant-Art as well.

4) Not a fan of time-travel, makes things annoying for me personally, never enjoyed it in X-men too. Dunno if Time-travel is in Iron Gods though, never read it, but I suspect it could be in.

I may not play the pathfinder game yet and i'm mostly hated for that, (don't play? don't have opinion), but that is only due to my lack of friends that want to play with me (i'm gay, and gay friends that play RPG's are rare), and i'm not a fan of walking into other friend-groups that play it, it isn't so popular in the Netherlands too...
So I just buy all the AP's so I can play them later on when I finally found a good group for myself, Iron Gods however is the first AP I completely skipped for the above reasons.
My problem isn't with Iron Gods really, I don't mind one set of AP's I don't buy, but I just hope it won't be something common, robots crowded in the bestiaries, and more AP's based on robots is what I fear more.


Myth Lord wrote:
Neongelion wrote:
Myth Lord wrote:

You are only half right, while the bestiaries and artworks have the highest priority for me personally, I still enjoy reading the entire AP. I really love the descriptions encounters get, I also enjoy reading about the NPC's and items. So I do enjoy storline/encounter design.

If that's the case, why are you not willing to give Iron Gods a read through? Are the science fiction themes really that off-putting to miss out on the potential encounters or characters or items (some items of which are distinctly not technological) a chance?

I mean I know this is off-topic from the OP but I'm genuinely curious. What about IG, other than its themes, turn you off to it so much?

I said this like a million times already, but here goes.

** spoiler omitted **...

1 and 2, I can respect. It's your preference and that's okay.

3) But I guarantee you that while voting with your wallet is not a bad strategy, Paizo has more or less said that Iron Gods will not be the end of those elements because Golarion always has and always will have sci-fi undertones. And if the previous bestiaries are anything to go by, the next one is more than likely gonna have a compilation of all of the aliens and robots from the adventure path, or at least a good chunk of them.

And I can spoil it here, time travel is non-existent in Iron Gods.

But seriously man, I think your fears are unfounded. Jade Regent happened, we're not seeing samurai and ninja swarming taverns in Absalom. Carrion Crown happened, everyone suddenly isn't a spooky gothic vampire ghost. But I'm pretty sure, as I mentioned above, they're never going to stop expanding on the more sci-fi elements of the setting because they're as integral to the setting as any other theme is.

Of course I'm secretly hoping the next sci-fi Adventure Path is gonna be Distant Worlds, and I don't care who's behind it, James or Rob. Make it happen dag nabbit!

There's more to the AP than robots btw. Saying it's based off of robots is like saying Jade Regent is based off of samurai: it grossly oversimplifies the other themes of the campaign, like religion and science working together, the nature of divinity and the soul, the potential for the abuse of science, stuff that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from fantasy.


Well, don't forgot that i'm a REAL BIG fan of the bestiary-part of the AP as well.

And in all AP's I have really loved the theme or the mixture of creatures they put out, spare for WOTR (too much winged demons) and the current one (no mythological ones and too much robots)

That is also why I rather don't see Iron Gods 2, or they must throw away the bestiary-must-be-for-the-AP parts and just put out random monsters like in the very first few AP's where everything went, but I don't see that happen.

About the next bestiary, well I can only hope you are wrong and that they save the robots and stuff for a more golarion-based smaller bestiary like they have in the past. but who knows :-)

but we better stop going off-topic this much, before the Gorbacz army is upon me again.


Well thanks for toning down the hate, which is all I wanted:)
to each their own, happy for you Giantslayer is around the corner:)


Myth Lord wrote:
Neongelion wrote:
Myth Lord wrote:

You are only half right, while the bestiaries and artworks have the highest priority for me personally, I still enjoy reading the entire AP. I really love the descriptions encounters get, I also enjoy reading about the NPC's and items. So I do enjoy storline/encounter design.

If that's the case, why are you not willing to give Iron Gods a read through? Are the science fiction themes really that off-putting to miss out on the potential encounters or characters or items (some items of which are distinctly not technological) a chance?

I mean I know this is off-topic from the OP but I'm genuinely curious. What about IG, other than its themes, turn you off to it so much?

I said this like a million times already, but here goes.

** spoiler omitted **...

spoilered for off topic

Spoiler:

For what it's worth each Iron God bestiary only has one robot. The rest are aliens are varying flavors most of whom have no technology attached (the two exceptions I can think of are both easily divorced from their tech, changing ship minds to living library oozes is just a matter of setting).

Also why do you need gay friends to play rpgs with? Is homophobia that bad in the Netherlands?


spoiler:
@ Captain Yesterday, for me the word hate isn't that serious as for you probably, I use the word hate intead of dislike 100% of the time, but serious hate is something that I rarely do, its just because i'm probably dutch and in the dutch language hate is used so often in wrong occasions.

@ Alex, thanks for trying, but i've seen most of the pictures of the monsters on Deviant-art, so far as I can see they aren't really from mythology, and those monsters are my favorites. I do like the purple anemone/tentacle creature growing out of what looks like an alien skull however and the strange porcupine from space.

And no, homophobia is around in the netherlands, but mostly from foreigners not from the locals. I just don't have many heterosexual male friends, dunno why, probably I myself are to blame for that because i don't feel 100% confortable around some of them, which has to do with my school-period where they picked on me. (still not over that)


I'd say that for the most part I do agree that Rob's APs tend to be more episodic they also tend to ahve the strongest individual pieces. For instance Rasputin Must Die and Beyond the Doomsday Door are excellent adventures you can plop into existing plots, but it's difficult to take any part of Jade Regent without taking the whole thing.


Thats a splendid response:)
i shall not react so strongly next time:)

Grand Lodge

Finding Groups:
I know you said that you aren't a fan of dropping into other groups but Roll 20/Skype is a great venue for playing if you are having trouble finding people to play with.

I imagine a lot of the discomfort would be nullified by not actually having to be in the same room with folks. Quitting is also pretty easy if you feel uncomfortable with it.

Silver Crusade

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Myth Lord:
I don't think most folks hate you, Myth; I certainly wouldn't for that. I went a good long stretch where I didn't play D&D but I enthusiastically read the game material and novels, so it would be might hypocritical of me to hold that against someone. If I ever came across as hating on you, I sincerely apologize. That has never been my intention.

But I will say it's easy to get frustrated sometimes. Honestly, it's the seeming eagerness to bring the party down whenever someone is enjoying something you don't that really gets under people's skin. Take the Bestiary Wishlist threads for example: Instead of focusing on building up the things you wanted, you also didn't shy away from tearing down what you didn't, even when this meant dissing someone else's wish. It's true, not everything is going to be for everyone, but not liking something is no call for raining on the parades of others who finally get their nice thing. And it can be frustrating for the writers as well, when the first thing their work and creativity is met with is a trashing simply because it wasn't to your tastes.

Yes, it's true that some go after you too harshly at times, especially when you're not even engaging in that behavior at the time. But eventually you've got to see that most of the pushback you see is brought about by self-fulfilling prophecy. It can't keep going on like this, it just isn't healthy for you or the community.

I know there's a lot of personal stuff feeding into some of this. I feel you there. But please trust me, a positive approach can make all the difference. And speaking from experience, it makes more lasting connections and gets results. :)

And also seconding what Tybid said about online groups. In many ways they can be much easier and feel safer to open up to and be yourself. I'm in one now and even without knowing almost half of the group beforehand, we've grown pretty tight and trusting with each other. It's worked out really well for us, and some of our number do have reasons to feel unsafe or just uncomfortable being open in face-to-face groups.

It may not be guaranteed to work on the first try, but there are groups out there for you. :)

Wishing you well, man.


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Alex G St-Amand wrote:

NOTE: This isn't to start a debate.

Note 2: Probably need a better title.

something I have noticed about like, dislike, difficulty, etc...

When people say something about an AP and compare it to another AP by the same 'author'

Ex: Someone has problem X with Iron Gods, the person mention having similar problem with Jade Regent, Shattered Star, Wrath of the Righteous, and/or etc...

or, Someone dislike Y about Mummy's Mask, and disliked similar things in Skull & Shackles, Reign of Winter and/or etc...

So, I'm guessing some of us have an harder time with the works of one author more than the other.

I really don't note particular authors all that much until someone else mentions it.

The common point I have noticed is that the the first book is normally the best book IMHO, and somewhere between books 4 and 6 one book is not liked nearly as well as the others.


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Mikaze:

Thanks for that, finally somebody who doesn't hold a mirror before my head, and gets back at me with the same behavior that I myself use. It's refreshing to say the least.

I was honestly not talking about you with the hate on me, more about some other folk that seem to enjoy seeing me pissed and hateful and want to keep me that way, not gonna name them here.

I know I have myself to blame for my behavior and its very black most of the time, but feeding the troll is never a good thing to do, it gets me only more responsive, the way you approach it here is much better and works better for me personally. As I can do something with that advice.

In some cases I just want to go into a discussion with people that like the opposite of what I like, but I really fail hard at doing that good maybe because I started my career wrong on Paizo-forums and it will always haunt me.

Thanks anyway, i'll (again) will try to keep it down, maybe not logging in on depressive days will help with that.


*Yay!* I love happy fun diplomacy time!
one thing to add is visceral and strong language often brings the same in response:)


Mythic Lord it also difficult to find a decent group where I live so I just use VTT's such as roll20.net. I prefer meeting in person but the online experience is not bad.


Lord Snow wrote:

I actually do feel there's a significant difference between Robs' APs ajd James' APs.

Speaking broadly, Rob tends to have APs that are more like strings of weakly connected modules, while with James there's usually a stronger continuing story from adventure to adventure. Consider Carrion Crown as the most classic example I can find of this: It's a "freak of the week" AP where each adventure pitches the PCs against a different horror trope, with a very loose meta-plot that barely comes into play for 95% of the time.

The same pattern repeats itself in Reign of Winter to a somewhat lesser degree (parts #3 onwards). Skull and Shackles I haven't read in full, and same goes for Mummy's Mask, but Against The Giants seems very much like it will follow the pattern.

With the James AP, I often feel a much stronger sense of direction. There are obviously some exception (such as Shattered Star, Kingmaker, and to some degree Jade Regent), but generally speaking he has much more in the way of recurring NPCs and adventures that make a more cohesive story.

I never finished reading Mummy's Mask and Skull and Shackles despite really liking their genres (pirates and ancient egypt). I suspect there's a reason - I simply prefer Jacbos' style. It's not that I can't enjoy any of Robs' stuff (Reign of Winter is incredible), but I am certainly more attracted to story oriented AP than to theme oriented APs. Some people are fine with just getting to play pirates and don't really want there to be much of a story (or even prefer not to have one forced upon them), but that's not really what I'm looking for in Pathfinder.
Of course, it might just be my imagination. The reason I suspect it's a bit more tangible than that is that I only learned that there are two different lead developers recently. When I did, and looked at the way the APs were split among them, things clicked for me. One style just resonated better for me.

Isn't Reign of Winter story driven?

Have i heard wrong?
Is it more like Jade Regent of Shattered Star?


Reign of Winter is like nothing else out there, I cant recommend it enough, everyone should own it:-)
And its Baba Yaga driven:-)


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Story driven, I guess. But still unconnected. More like Shattered Star, I'd say, though I haven't played or read Jade Regent.

After the second module, it's basically "Go to a new area and get the McGuffin."

Mind you, they're very cool modules and there's definite thematic linkage, but boiled down to the simplest level, that's what you're doing.

The Exchange

Yes, exactly as theJeff said. There's a clear cut villain from early on and her evil plans are known to the players. The PCs pretty much follow the main narrative the whole way.

However, all four last modules of the AP happen in extremly different locations, each of them having nothing to do with any of the other. There is the connecting theme of Baba Yaga throughout, but given some of the other craziness the players will be experiencing they might barely even notice.

Doctor Who is an apt comparison - there is some sort of plot going on, but really every episode stands on it's own and has very little to do with any other episode.


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leo1925 wrote:


Isn't Reign of Winter story driven? Have i heard wrong? Is it more like Jade Regent of Shattered Star?

More like Carrion Crown. A series of barely connected vignettes.


magnuskn wrote:
leo1925 wrote:


Isn't Reign of Winter story driven? Have i heard wrong? Is it more like Jade Regent of Shattered Star?
More like Carrion Crown. A series of barely connected vignettes.

That doesn't sound good (for me anyway), from what i have heard the story in Carrion Crown shows itself, pretty much, only in books 1 and 6 and the rest are pretty much disjointed modules that show almost nothing from the story.

Is what i have heard correct?

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