Renegadeshepherd wrote: just put em to sleep. or if you they have immunities or otherwise makes that hard to do id just cast 2 quickened dazing fireballs and laugh at em. First, I assume you mean 1 quickened and 1 normal dazing fireball because you can't cast two quickened spells in one round. That said, you think he doesn't have Protection from Energy cast for all the different energy types? You think he's not going to have Emergency Force Sphere memorized?
MeanMutton wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: just put em to sleep. or if you they have immunities or otherwise makes that hard to do id just cast 2 quickened dazing fireballs and laugh at em. First, I assume you mean 1 quickened and 1 normal dazing fireball because you can't cast two quickened spells in one round. That said, you think he doesn't have Protection from Energy cast for all the different energy types? You think he's not going to have Emergency Force Sphere memorized? Probably unnecessary given the opponent's saves. Maximum Cha (assuming no templates or venerable or the like), would be 18+2+5+5+6=36, mod of 13. That'd give a Fireball a baseline DC of 10+3+13=26, against a base Reflex save of 21. Not great odds.
Protection From Energy is honestly kind of unlikely given the no-starting-buffs, though if he has enough wealth to throw around he could acquire it easily enough. Seems like a trivial option for all of them but Fire though.
... In fact, immunity to fire is very possible, and would render the Lava Plan useless. A new killshot might be required, at the very least as a backup plan.
Wish you knew what the first 6 (or whatever you feel is 'reasonable' for your campaign) your opponent is going to cast (or actions) ... or something similar.
Learn his weakest ability score then consider going after that ability.
Based on the thread above I'd be sure to be carrying
1) One (or more) Rods of Absorbtion. Extra nice if the Rod can double as an Adamantine Light Mace.
2) Several Rods of Cancellation
Have access to Widen metamagic. Your foe is liable to forget to consider the possibility of spells getting Widened especially in the heat of combat. A Widened Sunburst is going to hit a very large area, quite possibly the entire arena unless it's huge (and could perhaps carry a disabling effect like Dazing etc.). Maybe useful against your foe if he manages to come out with Mindblank+Nondetection+Invisibility (of some sort) for instance. It's also non-elemental damage.
If possible precast Protection from Spells (that's another +3 on the 'minimum's list in Kestral287's post).
Foresight (again if possible) up and running in case your opponent is about to do something totally unexpected ... like go full on melee with some sort of antimagic up.
How big is the arena/battlefield for the duel? I assume one can't leave it.
I think it's likely that both casters will have a creature friendly (or dominated) to their cause willingly failing saves in the otherworldly kimono. That would push resistance bonus to saves and caster level bonus up from +4 to +6. As long as the creature leaves the arena immediately if it's forced out, I don't think it's technically against the rules. (of course, still assuming there are rules in place)
Won't necessarily help with opposed caster level checks, but the described saves were low balled -- and not just in this regard -- for simplicity. Also, the fireball's max save was low balled, and at least one of those fireballs could have been persistent to force an extra save (both if rods are in use). Even when the opponent only fails on 1-4,
Bottom line, the safest way to approach the issue is to see how each winning strategy could be maximized, and how likely it is for it to be countered. Most dazing fireballs can be taken out by lesser globe of invulnerability because they are not heightened. If the other caster has to dispel your protection first, that is an action down on his end, and a method of protection that he must forgo (at least one dispel tactic open through his spellbane)
It'll take a lot of time to think each method through, but that's a can of worms you open when you are trying to build a character specifically for a level 20 duel.
Just an add on to my fireball statements....
1) sphere of invulnerability isn't that big a deal to a sorcerer because he can identify the spell and then up his spells as needed.
2) yes I meant 1 quickened and 1 regular instead of 2 quickened but the result is the same as both spells will not use more than a level 4 unless it is desired.
3) protection or immunity to fire is very possible but that's why I always crab elemental bloodline one way or another so as to be able to throw acid ball or lightning ball. Point being its u likely that any sorcerer is going to have protection against so many variables.
4) spell perfection makes the odds of their saving quite bad. Doubling elemental focus, varisian tattoo, greater versions and so on means that saves against a fireball that does damage is poor odds.
But I realize that blasters require a lot of feats so ill digress.
Though I'd say just go necro up an army and send it to go make the other sorcerer burn resources.
Just turn into a dragon. Only a very few sorcerers will be able to handle a high strength and con dragon with spell resistance coming to bite him in the buttocks; and even most of those need some luck on the dice. I mean seriously one full round attack from said dragon form is likely to kill the sorcerer with his low defense and health. Even if the opposing sorcerer is good enough to get threaten that dragon with defeat the dragon formed sorcerer can jus fly away and rethink another plan having probably spent less spell slots than his foe.
After some thought, this is a duel that is immediately won by the first person in initiative unless the loser has protection against the specifically mentioned kill-wish: the first caster uses a standard action wish (which could be countered if this is an ultimate magic duel, though it is unclear if the immediate counterspell offered by those rules benefits from the Parry Spell feat). Follow this with a swift action (rod) wish. The loser in initiative cannot have a second counterspell ready.
One of the protections you are carrying *must* protect from wish, on the off chance your opponent is as optimized (or more) in initiative as you are. Unless a better alternative is suggested, I propose to have it in the inevitable spellbane.
(Of course, the same may be said of your opponent)
Edit: I would lean toward an Arcane bloodline for this, if only to reduce metamagic casting times and to nab a familiar (for the initiative, perhaps)
Also, I chose the simplest of protections. It's equally possible to be walking around with Spell Immunity/Greater Spell immunity that denies most blast spells. For instance, if I was a sorcerer king who knew a challenger was heavily optimized in blasting, I might have some reliable protection against it.
I realize the same may be said about dispel/counterspell, but those can usually work as long as they focus on specific things that are not actually the caster.
Wishing someone dead is super unlikely to work, what with it being outside what the spell allows. Whether it works or not is pretty much GM territory and I'd recommend against relying on that. When I set my Spellbane spells, it's to protect against being dispelled (take that disjunction and AMF!), since quite frankly keeping my buffs up is important. But yes to echo the primary thrust of this thread, going first is the most important, because unless your opponent has protected against your kill method, you win. I would however, make your kill method more reliable then "I wish X were dead."
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Player:"I'm going to wish them dead!"
*cast finger of death as a 9th level spell*
DM:"Your opponent passed the save...now what?"
Player:"Well...that didn't go as planned."
I'd say the same thing as you Anzyr, if the original poster hadn't told us that the winner of the duel is the one who manages to wish his opponent dead. That sounds like it's already fairly established by the GM.
Granted, it may only work when the target is already dead/helpless... In which case the protection is less important.
Mage's Disjunction looks like it could still take down a spellbane even if it is targeted ... It still affects the targeted spells as though by an antimagic field. Not a great chance, but with only simple caster level increases (Ioun and Charged Otherworldly Kimono, UMD beads of Karma) were looking at CL 31: that's a 31% chance to take it down. This can almost certainly be improved
This gets better if you can't have buffs up first: just counterspell his attempts to bring up the protection.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Just turn into a dragon. Only a very few sorcerers will be able to handle a high strength and con dragon with spell resistance coming to bite him in the buttocks; and even most of those need some luck on the dice. I mean seriously one full round attack from said dragon form is likely to kill the sorcerer with his low defense and health. Even if the opposing sorcerer is good enough to get threaten that dragon with defeat the dragon formed sorcerer can jus fly away and rethink another plan having probably spent less spell slots than his foe. You win initiative, cast Form of the Dragon III, he Dominates/Time-Stop-Spell-Spams/Wishes/some other way of casually ending you. None of the Form of the Dragon spells grant Spell Resistance so doing that makes you into nothing but a target by passing him initiative.
Blasting requires that you know he's not immune to your element (or your backup element) and that you know his saves are low enough for it to work and that he doesn't know what his opponent is blatantly optimized for doing. That's a lot more guesswork than I'd want to have going up against one of the most powerful people on the planet.
"Just fly away" is also probably not a viable strategy for a duel. At that point you void the duel and, in turn, your chance to run the city. Necromancy is likely in the same boat given the restriction on active spells, and that's not something you can possibly hide with a Mind Blank or the like (And even Mind Blank + Nondetection + buff suite is not something I'd trust going up against a 20th level caster, but that's a much more acceptable level of risk).
To me, step one remains figure out his spell list and favorite items, step two remains seeing if it's possible to sabotage some of those items or spells (via stealing foci/material components) prior to the duel. Sabotage needs to be done in a way that it can't be easily traced back to you even with magic though. This may require a certain degree of ruthlessness, so character alignment might not make it probable.
Step three's specifics-- the duel itself-- rests on knowing what you're up against, that's what steps one and two are for.
The turn into dragon is done out of battle as has been the assumption of all the guys who said I do X,Y,Z strategy. You are correct a out no spell resistsnce (confused it with actual dragon). though if i wanted to be a troll its not that hard to get spell resistance on yourself. If that assumption isnt valid then all that matters is the initiative roll.
And about blasting... I don't care how many ways you say it won't work Ill find just as many to make it work and no character is goin to have enough spells to counter them all. All I need is hellfire or its good counterpart and now you can't say oh I'm immune. The way the system is set up there isn't enough defense to defend against all the options a sorcerer can do at will.
Btw: I'd just go hire a cleric. Almost everything that has been said as a strategy here the cleric does better :0
Uh, if you are doing it right Renegadeshepherd a 20th level caster should end the fight with a swift action, no save, just lose spell if such a spell isn't defended against. Blasting simply does not contribute that.
Short of Hellfire (which, you're correct, is hard to stop passively-- though relatively easy to do with active defenses; if nothing else he adds Fireball, or whatever the blast is that you've poured all of your resources into, to his Spellbane list), your proposed strategy is disabled by two slotless magic items, one for immunity to Fire and one for immunity to whichever Elemental bloodline you have. It's probably wise to assume that one of the most powerful men on the planet knows what his direct opposition can do, so an optimized Blaster is likely to face abilities that negate them outright. That logic alone basically demands either flexibility or a strategy that cannot be negated, and while blaster-casters can be very solid, they are not flexible and can be negated easily under the circumstances.
Getting Spell Resistance isn't too hard, though getting it at a level where it matters might be. It's a Divine spell, so you either need to sneak in a buff, be a Drow (really a Drow Noble if you want it to matter), or whip up a custom magic item. At book costs, a slotless CL20th continuous item of Spell Resistance is into artifact prices (360,000 gold). That would give SR 32. Figure he's working at CL21 and packing an Otherworldly Kimono at the minimum, so +25 to break SR... 70% chance to breach your SR on each shot. That's a lowball estimate. And even then the presence or assumed presence of a Rod of Absorption makes SR less useful, though it can hit some things that a Rod can't and vice versa.
All of that said, if you can find a way to make it affordable (probably means sneaking in a buff), it's a very good option to take.
Turning into a dragon prior to battle doesn't work due to the "no active spells" clause. While a great many buffs could probably be hidden by Nondetection + Mind Blank, I would certainly not think that being a Huge dragon is easily concealed. If the cheat-and-buff-pre-duel route is to be taken, it needs to be done with buffs that don't have obvious visual effects. That said, fair's fair, Shapechange would solve the 'obvious visual effects' part of it.
Good luck finding a 20th level Cleric, hiring him to risk his life against a 20th level Sorcerer, finding a way to have people believe he's you for the purposes of the duel, having him one-shot the Sorcerer before the Sorcerer whips out Time Stop, and then actually turning over the keys to the state he literally just conquered to you.
Incidentally, this does add another aspect to consider in the planning stages: knowing the terrain of the duel and the kind of anti-cheating measures present would be extremely helpful. If you can effectively cheat, that will simplify matters drastically because it means all we need to do is find the buff spells that will secure victory for you.
Interesting related question: is any 3rd party or 3.5 stuff on the table? 3.5's Spell Compendium offers Nerveskitter-- a 1st level spell that grants +5 to an initiative check and is cast as an immediate action when initiative is rolled.
Trying to beat your opponent by doing damage to them just isn't going to work. You won't necessarily know what your opponent's defenses are, but even if you could, there's no way buffing yourself or trying out a damaging spell is going to eliminate them in one turn, which is what you need.
You're right that the primary issue is:
What exactly did the Bald Man mean when they said
"Both sorcerers start without any spells active."
but also
"With the various buffs it seems unlikely that a single round is going to end the fight. In our campaign Casters expecting trouble often have Moment of Prescience up - ensuring they make their first serious save. Contingency is also likely to prolong the battle somewhat."
in the same post?
You're also right that initiative is key.
With no buffing at all, your initiative bonus can pretty easily be +15+Dex, making three rolls and taking the highest.
(improved initiative, eldritch heritage (arcane) for an appropriate familiar, reactionary, dueling weapon, rod of alertness, inspired, borrow fortune)
With an hour/level buff, you get another +21 or so.
Your only hope is that your opponent didn't invest as many of their resources as you did into initiative.
If you win initiative, winning the battle is honestly pretty easy.
kestral: Borrow Fortune is better for this purpose than a +5 to initiative, and both use an immediate action. If all goes well, you won't need to make any more rolls during the course of the combat.
Borrow Fortune is an Oracle spell though. How are you getting it on your spell list? Or are we just planning on Wanding it?
Yeah, a first level wand would be pretty easy to get, and at this level, UMD checks are a joke.
Third-level spell by what I'm seeing, so not a first-level Wand (not that it matters much at this wealth level). Still, useful spell that.
If I was planning on using it I /would/ try to find out if this was happening Old-West-pistols-at-dawn style (that is to say, nothing in hand, you have to draw your wand, which would mean no Borrow Fortune I'd think), or the older style where both parties have their weapons (wands, rods, etc.) in hand.
if i was a level 20 sorcerer, challenged to a mage duel, with no knowledge of my opponent, the first thing i would do is keep an antimagic field centered on me.
that should ensure i dont auto die on the first turn if i lose initiative.
the second thing i would do is keep a bow or crossbow, with arrows with antimagic fields on them (if possible), and hope i hit my opponent, a chestful of antimagic is going to buy my another round to figure out his schtick. If that is not allowed, a simple longspear should keep him on his toes.
thirdly, i would use spells that are largely unaffected by antimagic (conjuration/creation spells with instant durations), if golems are allowed then all the better.
for added fun, if your DM rules that AMF is a personal spell (AMF has a weird range/area interaction), get a familiar, cast it on it, and have that sucker latch on to the enemy spell caster and then beat him with a stick.
kikidmonkey:
Your antimagic field isn't going to help very much once your opponent casts Time Stop, surrounds the field with stone walls, then Fabricates, Teleports, or just wishes for a bunch of lava to appear 11 feet above your head, then readies an actin to cast Antimagic Field if you dismiss yours.
Incidentally, Antimagic Field is centered on you, not your arrow (unless you're an arcane archer, which you're not). A familiar wouldn't help, because the spell doesn't target you, it just creates an area centered around the caster.
Also, even instantaneous creation spells can't be cast while inside an antimagic field, but their effects can enter an antimagic field after being created. And there are surprisingly few good ones, probably because creating things with an instantaneous spell is pretty much free items, so you can't have a lot of flexibility in what you create.
kikidmonkey wrote: if i was a level 20 sorcerer, challenged to a mage duel, with no knowledge of my opponent, the first thing i would do is keep an antimagic field centered on me.
that should ensure i dont auto die on the first turn if i lose initiative.
Going to pause here to note a strategy indicated earlier in the thread that's a good indication of what an enemy might use against you here:
Avoron wrote: Here's a potential plan:
1. Boost initiative in as many ways as possible, to ensure going first.
2. Cast Time Stop with a metamagic rod of maximize spell.
3. Use some spell or another to surround your opponent in a 5' radius nonmagical hemisphere of stone.
4. Use some spell or another to fill that hemisphere with nonmagical lava.
5. Cast Mage's Magnificent Enclosure with a metamagic rod of reach spell, centered on the sphere. (If that spell is not available to you, stand by the sphere and ready an action to cast Antimagic Field as soon as Time Stop ends.)
6. Once Time Stop ends, wait for your opponent to die from the 20d6 damage/round.
7. (optional) Resurrect your opponent if they weren't supposed to actually die.
Antimagic Field or no, you're dead.
Also, sticking an Antimagic Field onto an arrow is the province of the Arcane Archer; the standard Sorcerer can't do that.
It also really shouldn't be hard to figure out the opponent's spell list, but the original writer hasn't gotten back to us in a good while with details like that.
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The Bald Man wrote: If you were a 20th Level Sorcerer going up against another 20th level Sorcerer in a spell duel what would you plan to do?
What notable spells would you want for buff?
What tactics would you use?
Attack Plan?
Defense Plan?
Contingency Plan?
Other Thoughts?
Assumptions:
-A reasonable period for buffing before the duel.
-Opponent is Imperial Bloodline (immune to death and energy drain)
-You are an Arcane, Shadow, or Imperial bloodline.
-Both sorcerers must have Wish as a spell known.
-Opponent is over-equipped vs standard wealth by level (epic stat array, +5 inherent for each stat, etc.)
Depends on how dirty you want to fight. Starting from least to dirtiest...
1. Generic Stuff (unremarkable): Protection from Spells (+8 resistance vs magic is +3 better than your cloak), Mind blank (guards vs divining & mind affecting), Death Ward (immune to negative energy / level drains), Freedom of Movement, Spell Turning, See Invisibility + True Seeing (yes, both, because see invis has no range limit), Resist Energy 30 (all types), Greater Spell Immunity (pick some spells that may get through your other defenses), good defensive equipment (for AC, saves, and heavy fortification).
2. Dirtier (Eyebrow Raising): Use Magic Device to emulate divine spellcasting ability to activate a prayer bead: bead of karma to get +4 caster level, stacking with your +1 caster level ioun stone, sometime before you cast gate. Now you have a CR 23 solar (AKA a 20th level Cleric on 'roids) as your *****-minion.
3. Dirtiest (It's hard to look at yourself in the mirror anymore): Use blood money to create a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon (oldest age category with all the trimmings). Then use magic jar to transfer yourself into the dragon (have it willingly lower its SR and submit). Congratulations. You are now a 20th level sorcerer inside the body of a great wyrm red dragon. You retain the dragon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, Hit Points, Natural Armor, Spell Resistance, and enhanced dragon senses (blindsight, scent, etc). As an added bonus, gold dragons can assume humanoid form while retaining all their dragon ability scores, so just have the dragon assume a humanoid form via Change Shape prior to possessing it. At this point, don all your usual items and buffs and be ready to throw down.
4. DxD (Dirty Squared): As all of the above plus you should create simulacrums of yourself and have them cast spells ideal for hazing enemy spellcasters. Y'know, the stuff like "save halves" or things that block line of sight/effect or otherwise deal chip-damage (cloudkill), and so forth. Have them scatter about and just ready lots of actions to interrupt spellcasting by your opposing duelist. Every time they try to get off a spell, your minions proceed to unleash a volley of spells to eat up spell turning or other spell-absorbtions, force concentration checks, or block effects that would be targeting you.
For example, if your enemy caster is going to cast something like mage's disjunction, your friendly clone can cast wall of stone to intercept the burst (Mage's Disjunction still needs line of effect to work for example).
Also remember that your simulacrums are 10th level, which means they can cast magic jar if you can, which means any body-swapping shenanigans you can pull of, they can pull off too. >_>
And of course, contingency to greater teleport (thanks Summoner!) allow you an escape route with a trigger of "When I want it", so that you can greater-teleport away from a near-death experience. :P
Ashiel: There's a reason spell duels have standard rules:
"Each participant must fight alone and can receive no help from outside sources, with the exception of familiars or other bonded creatures.
Each participant must fight with magic. The use of melee or ranged weapons is forbidden, with the exception of bonded objects and weapons that can cast spells, such as staves.
The use of summoned or otherwise conjured creatures is forbidden, unless the duel expects such creatures to combat one another at the behest of the participants (rather than directly attacking the dueling opponent).
This sort of creature duel is common among druids, summoners, and conjurers.
The duel lasts until one of the casters has been knocked unconscious or otherwise prevented from continuing. Spells such as hold person do not end duels, but flesh to stone certainly does, assuming the target fails her saving throw. Some duels go to the death and are only ended when one duelist or team is a smoking pile of ash."
Granted, the OP hasn't told us all of the rules of this spell duel, but I think its fair to assume that you can't bring an army in with you. And all of that other stuff doesn't help you in an antimagic field.
Yeah, antimagic isn't the greatest contingency for losing initiative. It'll also eat your standard action to dismiss it if you need to resume casting (if this is a spell duel, from Ultimate Magic, summons and most weapons are not allowed. If it's a bonded weapon, it might be allowed, but even then it's skirting the definition of 'spell duel')
Edit: for some reason my browser didn't update with the last couple posts. Oops.
to Avalon and kestral, if you look at the tactics you listed, I actually defeat that tactic:
Quote:
2. Cast Time Stop with a metamagic rod of maximize spell.
3. Use some spell or another to surround your opponent in a 5' radius nonmagical hemisphere of stone.
they cast it into my AMF, their spell fails, if we are allowing level 9 spells, then bump my AMF to Widened AMF, now with their 5 turns of AMF, they waste turn 1 and 2 just trying to surround me (first turn spell fails, assume AMF, cast second spell 10 ft away, fails again due to widened)
Quote: 4. Use some spell or another to fill that hemisphere with nonmagical lava. if they have a hemisphere of stone around me, they have no line of effect to cast inside it.
Quote: 5. Cast Mage's Magnificent Enclosure with a metamagic rod of reach spell, centered on the sphere. (If that spell is not available to you, stand by the sphere and ready an action to cast Antimagic Field as soon as Time Stop ends.)
My AMF is wider than their MME
end result, they cast at least 4 spells to my one
Well, obviously they have to adjust to your specific actions. It would go like this, if you cast an antimagic field:
1. Time Stop
2. Wall of Stone, surrounding your entire Antimagic Field with a wall of stone.
3. Create/fabricate/teleport lava above the antimagic field, so it will fall inside the wall.
4. Ready an action to cast a Widened Antimagic Field if you dismiss your antimagic field, keeping you trapped in lava without magic.
Number of spells doesn't matter, so long as you win. If the other person gets a chance to cast time stop, they can basically win, just by setting you up to die and taking away all of your magic.
So, you cast antimagic field? I don't know whether I'd bother trying to take it down (aroden spellbane or mages disjunction), try punishing you while you bunker down (mostly helpless) inside, or just fly up high enough and start using the free rounds you gave me to buff. After all, your going to have, at best, 1 swift action to cast a spell. If this is a spell duel (still an assumption) then I counterspell your gained action with my immediate dueling counter.
Assuming the opponent wins initiative,
He casts a quickened spell. Your contingent antimagic eats it. He casts a buff spell with standard (or time stop for more actions), knowing his later immediate action will likely suffice to keep you locked up should you dismiss your antimagic. If you keep it up, he just keeps buffing, while you're sitting there, completely unable to do anything worthwhile.
If you get to go first, you get a swift and standard action to do your thing before handing it over to your opponent.
Unless you know your first swift action won't be countered by something, antimagic is a hopeless ploy.
As an aside, I'd at least forgo mage's disjunction in my spellbane. If my opponent forgets it in his, I'd like to hose him. If he remembers it, that's one more spell in my own spellbane that I have implicit protection against, because he can't cast through his own.
Avoron wrote: Well, obviously they have to adjust to your specific actions. It would go like this, if you cast an antimagic field:
1. Time Stop
2. Wall of Stone, surrounding your entire Antimagic Field with a wall of stone.
turn 1 of time stop, WoS, fails because they tried too close to surround me
turn 2 of time stop, try further away, too close due to widened
turn 3, cast wall of stone for third time, wall is 100 square feet, needs to meet a surface area of 2512 square feet to surround me in a hemisphere (according to my math), you CAN halve the thickness to double the area, so 5 inches (1 per 4 levels) goes to 2.5 for 200 square feet, 1.25 inches for 400 feet, 0.625 inches for 800 feet, 0.3125 for 1600 feet, and 0.15625 inches for 3200 square feet. Hope your sorc was good enough at math to know this. also, how much effort would it take to bust through 0.15 inches of stone?
Quote:
3. Create/fabricate/teleport lava above the antimagic field, so it will fall inside the wall.
casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affect by the spell, too long for Time Stop,
*EDIT* Fabricate also says minerals reduce to 1 cubic foot/level, or only 20 cubic feet of potential lava.
teleport object will allow up to 1000lbs/60 cubic feet, and a DM willing to state that a body of liquid is an "object", requires you to have left an opening to cast above me, requires you to touch the object to teleport, or send it to the ethereal plane, but then dispel only returns it to the place it originally teleported from. So you would have had to know where i was going to be standing prior to teleporting the lava, placing the lava in that prime spot, and then dispelling it.
Quote:
4. Ready an action to cast a Widened Antimagic Field if you dismiss your antimagic field, keeping you trapped in lava without magic.
requires fulfillment of all above, first.
Quote: Number of spells doesn't matter, so long as you win. If the other person gets a chance to cast time stop, they can basically win, just by setting you up to die and taking away all of your magic. I feel like i have fairly adequately countered that initial time stop.
Additionally i would like to add, have my familiar be the one to cast the AMF, i can now just order it to move, and then start my own round of time stop.
To Ashiel: we don't know if summons are allowed in the spell duel yet, or even if this is a spell duel as described in Ultimate Magic. I suspect that the original poster is absent until after they confer with their GM to determine what the rules are. If summons are allowed, your dirty option seems like a pretty solid choice.
I don't know if more caster levels would help nab a slightly better creature, but if they could then you might consider +6 caster levels from an otherworldly kimono in which a friendly/dominated creature is failing its saves. This would improve saves marginally better than the standard +5 cloak, though marginally worse than protection from spells.
I would also like to point out at this particular time:
Known about Sorcerer A:
Spells known:
Lvl 9: Time Stop, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure (which is from a setting book)
Lvl 7: Teleport Object (i assume this will be traded out)
Lvl 5: Wall of Stone, Fabricate (i assume this will be traded out)
Rod of: Maximize
Rod of: Reach
Some method of ensuring going first
Known about my Sorcerer:
Spells known:
Lvl 9: Time Stop (i wasn't really serious in my above comment, but what the heck)
Lvl 6: Antimagic Field (Scrolled, if familiars can cast from scrolls)
Feats known: Widen Spell(if familiar cant do scroll), Improved Familiar (ensure it can cast AMF)
Arcane Bloodline to have familiar
Now I'm not trying to say that my sorcerer is the best, or guaranteed to win, I am only trying to come up with a simple, elegant foil to the first turn scenario of any potential rival mage, not even necessarily the one listed thus far. Just something to eliminate my foe's initial advantage.
Kikid: You have a lot of poor assumptions here.
Assumption #1: That Time Stop comes before the swift action. Possible but not wise. Personally I'd always lead with a swift action spell here-- potentially even a swift action Time Stop via greater Quicken rod. Even assuming it's just a swift action attack spell to gauge your defenses, that exposes your Antimagic Field.
#2: That a Widened Antimagic Field couldn't be identified. Spellcraft is a thing. Identifying it destroys your "the other guy doesn't know what he's up against" defense.
#3: That the Wall of Stone has to be a hemisphere. A cylinder of sufficient height would do. You have a radius of 20', this means a caster needs CL25 (or close enough to it) to totally surround you without thinning the wall at all. Minimum assumption is CL21; 20th level + Ioun Stone. Higher is very possible, but let's assume 21st. Thin it once, you can create a wall eight feet and nine inches high completely around your field. Fill this with lava. What's your escape plan?
#4: That you're allowed a familiar and that the familiar is allowed to fight
#5: That the familiar is not /also/ encased in the wall and surrounded by lava. Since by necessity it's beginning in your square, this is rather unlikely.
#6: That the exact location you're standing in wouldn't be known while time is frozen. This one is really not all that relevant but it is kind of amusing.
I think I'm leaning toward a really weird counter to antimagic field: a dazing 'clashing rocks' (or possibly wall of iron if STR checks are a non-issue somehow). Instantaneous conjuration at a distance of 30 ft from target, therefore not countered by antimagic field or spellbane. Deals damage even when the spell does not score a direct hit on a touch attack, and more importantly allows reflex save (one of the sorcerer's weak saves)
Frankly, I wish the antimagic user good luck with having the touch attack miss without magic item/spell support, and furthermore with making a Reflex save against DC 19+INT... without any sort of special optimization at all beyond carrying a greater dazing metamagic rod.
(I think any caster optimized at all for this duel will have the 36 casting stat mentioned above, so DC 32. Your unbuffed DEX will need to be pretty nifty to avoid 9 rounds of daze on anything other than a 20.)
If you get hit by the rocks, there's a fair chance you are buried, meaning that when you get to make a DC 25 STR check once you wake up from Daze, if you wake up from Daze.
...
I wouldn't go under an Antimagic without first taking out my opponents ability to cast. (I know this contrasts my earlier opinion. At the time, I had not fully considered the implications -- though I think the lava option has more steps than I would personally like if they need to need to go off smoothly)
Quote: Assumption #1: That Time Stop comes before the swift action. Possible but not wise. Personally I'd always lead with a swift action spell here-- potentially even a swift action Time Stop via greater Quicken rod. Even assuming it's just a swift action attack spell to gauge your defenses, that exposes your Antimagic Field.
fair enough on the swift action, though now there is a third rod in the mix
Quote: #2: That a Widened Antimagic Field couldn't be identified. Spellcraft is a thing. Identifying it destroys your "the other guy doesn't know what he's up against" defense. you cant spellcraft an already cast spell
Quote: #3: That the Wall of Stone has to be a hemisphere. A cylinder of sufficient height would do. You have a radius of 20', this means a caster needs CL25 (or close enough to it) to totally surround you without thinning the wall at all. Minimum assumption is CL21; 20th level + Ioun Stone. Higher is very possible, but let's assume 21st. Thin it once, you can create a wall eight feet and nine inches high completely around your field. Fill this with lava. What's your escape plan? a: Wall of stone lists area is 5ft/level, level 20 means 100 square feet.
b: I'm not the one who originally said it would be a hemisphere
c: CL 25 on the wall is only 125 square feet, you cant surround me with that, a cylinder actually requires MORE surface area, not less.
my escape plan? climb, it's not that high.
Quote: #4: That you're allowed a familiar and that the familiar is allowed to fight post above said familiars ARE allowed, i was basing off that.
Quote: #5: That the familiar is not /also/ encased in the wall and surrounded by lava. Since by necessity it's beginning in your square, this is rather unlikely. Still need the lava to get their somehow, fabrication is not a fast spell.
Quote: #6: That the exact location you're standing in wouldn't be known while time is frozen. This one is really not all that relevant but it is kind of amusing. that "known location" thing was for teleportation of lava using teleport object.
I'd cast plane shift and exit stage left.Cause the only high level sorcerer I've ever played couldn't make a saving throw to save his life.
kikidmonkey wrote: you cant spellcraft an already cast spell This is why Id do my level best to have greater arcane sight or analyze dweomer if pre-cast buffs are allowed (not clearly known yet)
It might be the case that you have X rounds to buff while in your opponent's sight before the match begins. Or maybe there are no pre-match buffs. Or maybe all buffs are allowed.
Its still nebulous.
#1: Time is being stopped and the opponent has greater-than-standard WBL. Dropping a rod to draw a new one is not a problematic consideration.
#2: Personally I would call a spell coming into being via Contingency functionally the same as casting it. A question for the DM.
#3: 5ft/lvl, CL21, 105'. The 8'9" actually assumes CL22 (doable with incredible ease), as I didn't edit my math right. That said, feel free to check the math. 220' of wall (halved once) is enough to create a cylinder with a radius of 20' and a height of 8'9". And your out is... climb. While covered in lava. Yeah you're dead.
#4: Which post? None of the original poster's posts say anything about familiars one way or another. Hence, anything using familiars is an assumption. They may be allowed, they may not. That said, you did get me to re-read the OP's posts, so thank you.
#5: Wish is a thing, if nothing else. Personally I wouldn't touch Fabricate for something like this; casting time is far too long. That said you haven't answered the actual argument presented.
#6: How would your location of "Inside that Wall of Stone at this exact position that I saw him in six subjective seconds ago and zero objective seconds ago" possibly not be known?
I would sit in my own private demi plane created via shades and send my shadow projection out to try to kill the enemy. My Silvanshee familiar could stabilize me should my projection be destroyed.
Since I am in a place of absolute security, I can destroy my foe at my leisure.
Standard MO would be to summon hordes of monster and then dimensional anchor the enemy.
Okay I stopped reading at the start of page 2. Sorry have work in the morning.
How about Aroden's spell bane on wishes for starters?
Did someone already say that?
Next, screw actually fighting him fairly. Have a fake of you via a wish or whatever method you can think of get murdered by him in the duel.
Then later when he's got his gloat on surprise mega kill him with whatever. Preferably with no one around. Use spells to impersonate him.
Then when someone challenges you...you let a double of the former dingbat get iced and then mega kill the new D-bag.
Also......
What about casting wish so that if someone wishes you dead it has the opposite effect? You know in case he does win and then wishes you dead you're like surprise mothe$^%$&^*(, ;)
Uh...good luck?
kestral287 wrote: #1: Time is being stopped and the opponent has greater-than-standard WBL. Dropping a rod to draw a new one is not a problematic consideration.
#2: Personally I would call a spell coming into being via Contingency functionally the same as casting it. A question for the DM.
#3: 5ft/lvl, CL21, 105'. The 8'9" actually assumes CL22 (doable with incredible ease), as I didn't edit my math right. That said, feel free to check the math. 220' of wall (halved once) is enough to create a cylinder with a radius of 20' and a height of 8'9". And your out is... climb. While covered in lava. Yeah you're dead.
#4: Which post? None of the original poster's posts say anything about familiars one way or another. Hence, anything using familiars is an assumption. They may be allowed, they may not. That said, you did get me to re-read the OP's posts, so thank you.
#5: Wish is a thing, if nothing else. Personally I wouldn't touch Fabricate for something like this; casting time is far too long. That said you haven't answered the actual argument presented.
#6: How would your location of "Inside that Wall of Stone at this exact position that I saw him in six subjective seconds ago and zero objective seconds ago" possibly not be known?
1: Assumption: Opponent is allowed Greater than Standard WBL
2: I admit, I am assuming a pre-buff rather than contingency
3: where are you getting all this lava? and yes, climbing out, climb isnt that hard. At ~10 feet, for an average height humanoid, a simple jump and grap the top of the wall shouldn't (another hideous assumption) be all that hard.
4: Avoron said familiars are allowed in normal duels, (on page 2)
5: I assume (yes another assumption) that we don't want to get into a Wish-war, as that is counter-productive.
6: well, again, all my assumptions are based on what OTHERS have said they are using as spells, someone said Teleport Object: Lava, I listed the problems with that (you either need a pool of lava handy, or know where i am going to be prior to the fight.
*Edit* Also, what is the "argument being presented" that I am not addressing, I would like to address it.
#1 is a fact presented by the first post, actually.
#2: Pre-buffs are only possible if you can sneak them in (possible only with Nondetection and Mind Blank... good luck doing that + Antimagic Field) or once the duel begins, when there is a "reasonable" period of buffing. That allows Spellcraft checks, unless you throw up a Wall of Stone first to block line of sight... which strikes me as a very bad idea.
In fact that whole buffing period (one of the things I caught on the re-read) renders this plan pretty useless since the other guy gets buffs but yours go defunct.
#3: Personally, I'd either research a Transmuate Rock to Lava spell or just Wish for an equivalent. Others may have better strategies for this. I toyed around with using the Gate spell for it but I'm not sure if that's legal or not so it's on the back-burner. Again, skipping past the point of you not having an escape plan to being dunked in 8.75-odd feet of lava.
#4: We have established that this is not a normal duel. Anything not stated by the OP is an assumption.
#5: Why? Hell, if I was the opposition here a Wish-war is exactly what I would want (see #1). That said, if he's casting Wish during his own Time Stop, and part of that Wish is rendering you coated in lava (thus unable to speak and probably making gestures rather difficult to boot), there's no war of Wishes. And the argument presented was how your familiar has no escape plan.
#6: So... assumptions? My entire point?
Lets do some save optimization. Lets say you have a +4 human bane courageous dueling club (which might also be a metamagic rod -- if only to save on action economy -- judging by how rods and weapons are sometimes combined in the equipment section.) This nets you +7 (morale) on all saves if you can get greater heroism cast (boots of the battle herald will eat your swift, but you should be able to start them before the battle as it is an item, an the poster has called items out as allowable). If we discount protection from spells as a thing due to pre-buff rules, we can have +6 resistance from an otherworldly kimono.
For a sorcerer, with just these two, you get Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +25.
Without any special attention to your save stats, you may achieve 16 pretty easily through wealth with just the enhancement items (not even touching the very expensive inherent bonuses from wish!) This nets +3 ->
Fort +22, Ref +22, Will +28
Finally, smack a Bestow Grace onto the character through UMD-scroll/wand or an item (if your GM allows a spell in a can item for this, make it and never look back). Assuming the 'optimized' casting CHA stat, this gives +13 to all saves.
Fort +35, Ref +35, Will +41.
Suddenly, Im not too worried about spells that allow saves. (Unless I walk into my own antimagic field and I get targeted by a instantaneous conjuration that allows a save)
Note, this is low optimization. I haven't touched Profane, Luck, Competence, Insight or Alchemical bonuses yet. And I shudder at the low-balling of DEX, CON, and WIS. I especially believe at least DEX would be higher, to increase resistance to touch attacks.
Morgan Champion wrote: According to the terms of the duel, the opposing caster is a 20th level sorceror with the Imperial bloodline, so Energy Drain wouldn't work.
Furthermore, that bloodline is only available to humans, so if you want your sorceror to have that bloodline, you have to play a human.
Hence the Thanatopic metamagic.
Adept_Woodwright wrote: Lets do some save optimization. Good stuff here. Some thoughts though:
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone gives, among other things, a +1 competence bonus on saves. Further, the 3rd level Imperious bloodline ability increases morale and competence bonuses by 1. Imperious is an option for a starting bloodline for our hero here, but it's definitely the bloodline for the enemy. So figure another +1 if non-Imperious, but +3 if Imperious.
Bestow Grace is nasty. That needs to be on our 'reasonable-period' buff list if nothing else.
kestral287 wrote: #1 is a fact presented by the first post, actually.
#2: Pre-buffs are only possible if you can sneak them in (possible only with Nondetection and Mind Blank... good luck doing that + Antimagic Field) or once the duel begins, when there is a "reasonable" period of buffing. That allows Spellcraft checks, unless you throw up a Wall of Stone first to block line of sight... which strikes me as a very bad idea.
In fact that whole buffing period (one of the things I caught on the re-read) renders this plan pretty useless since the other guy gets buffs but yours go defunct.
#3: Personally, I'd either research a Transmuate Rock to Lava spell or just Wish for an equivalent. Others may have better strategies for this. I toyed around with using the Gate spell for it but I'm not sure if that's legal or not so it's on the back-burner.
#4: We have established that this is not a normal duel. Anything not stated by the OP is an assumption.
#5: Why? Hell, if I was the opposition here a Wish-war is exactly what I would want. That said, if he's casting Wish during his own Time Stop, and part of that Wish is rendering you coated in lava (thus unable to speak and probably making gestures rather difficult to boot), there's no war of Wishes.
#6: So... assumptions? My entire point?
1: ok, it does say the opponent is over equipped, the assumption in the post is that WE must defeat him, I don't pretend to know what he has, and that doesn't allow US (the builds listed here) to have over wealth, there is no guarantee that the builds listed here are what the opponent is going to do.
2: OP says that a reasonable period of buffing is happening before the duel. So there is no problem with me having AMF up. I can still cast other buffs, which will reappear after AMF goes down/leaves
3: Researching a spell: assumption that you can A: research it, B: have available stone to turn into lava.
4: OP has listed Arcane Bloodline as a bloodline we can take, Arcane Bloodline allows a familiar, i dont think it is unreasonable to assume I can have the familiar with me
5: I don't want to go down a Wish-war because then it's just "well I do this!" "Well I do THIS" "Not if I do THIS" "Ah, but i knew you would do that so I wished for THIIIIIIS" It's too much of a Schrodinger war. What if I wished that you can't summon lava? What then? What if, during my buff time, i wish that the opponent didn't exist?
6: Yes, EVERYTHING in this thread is assumptions, we don't have all the details. I have admitted earlier that this tactic was only to buy me some time in the first round, to not get insta-blasted.
Like i said, i dont want to play Schrodinger's Sorcerer here, i dont know what the opponent has, I can't guarantee going first (like the assumptions made with the other sorcerer" I am simply trying to think of a simple fall back to NOT going first.
1: Barring evidence to the contrary, WBL is the norm (which is to say, it's the expectation and a deviation from that would generally be considered the assumption). Also, while there's certainly no guarantee he'd follow anything like these tactics, it's generally wise to assume the worst and be pleasantly surprised. Sure, he could start chucking unboosted Fireballs, but you won't see me hoping that that's his game plan.
2: Presuming you don't need those buffs before the AMF goes down, yes. This seems like a dangerous assumption.
3: Or C., have Wish known, which is actually not an assumption as it's a stated requirement. I would /like/ to do it with a pre-researched spell, but I'm perfectly fine with "I wish the ground under your feet was lava".
4: Having one with you and having it actively fighting are two different things.
5: Well, putting aside that you'd have trouble stopping the lava-Wish during a Time Stop (when you can't do anything) or immediately afterwards (when you have to deal with the whole lava-in-your-lungs problem), point #1 indicates that in such a Wish-war, the winner is he with more money... and that's the other guy.
'Course that might leave him as easy pickings for the guy behind us, but we still lost so no great victory that. Hence, my point: while seeking a Wish-war is unwise on general principle, it plays to the enemy's strengths.
If there's another 20th level caster lying around (ha), might be wise to get him drawn into a Wish-war with this guy though.
6: Actually, the point was more that once you throw up the Antimagic Field you're more-or-less passing him initiative. Since we're doing that in the pre-battle buffing stages now...
kestral287, I'd probably prefer the arcane bloodline for its reduction in metamagic cast time. I never want to be casting fewer than 2 spells per round, so full round action spells are no goes. While metamagic beyond rods isn't necessary, its a nice option to have... probably more valuable, objectively, than a small bonus to competence/morale effects, an inspire heroics (takes a move action though, so this is actually pretty sweet), and immunity to death effects/energy drain.
YMMV.
-Edit- Admittedly, this is less important if were assuming an extremely small number of rounds. Then, arguably, the better buffs are better in the beginning. But even then, the green-sting scorpion familiar is probably the best buff as it helps with initiative.
1: Nothing to address here, if he has more WBL, and if we assume he is using the most optimized build, then we can't defeat him and this whole thing is pointless, that's boring.
2: any pre buff i am doing, I will make sure that it lasts AT LEAST as long as AMF, that's not an assumption, that's common sense, there is no reason for me to cast a buff i know i wont be able to use during the fight, if AMF goes down.
3-5: Fine, pre-battle I wish for EX immunity to Lava permanently, wish wars are not fun and, if he who has more money wins, then this whole debate is worthless, the other guy wins no matter what. That's why I said I don't want to get into a wish war.
6: I was ALWAYS assuming that the AMF was up pre-battle, YOU assumed it wasnt :D
Wow mad posting speeds :)
@Adept Woodwright, I'll second that and LOL at a Dazing Wall of Iron ... though you would need to figure out how to topple it in the desired direction (DC=40 Str check but at least you can use magic :p).
Another potential Wish usage: Wish, in the 'reverse' concept of Spell Immunity, that 1 spell of your choice per 4 levels be immune to the effect of Antimagic Fields (or Spellbane, dead magic, etc.).
@Kikidmonkey (and everyone else): Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I've always read the area of a Wall of Stone to be 1 5x5 ft section of Wall per level or 25 5x5 ft 'sections' total which is more like 625 square feet of Wall (i.e a net of 25x25ft).
And also add any dumping of Dex and/or Con in particular really bad ideas if you want to start tossing around AMF's ... and what kind of spell caster starts a spell duel by casting AMF anyway, that ought to be an auto disqualifyer on principle alone. Heck just wish a Dead Magic area into existence why don't you :p
If AMF is up, I hit you with one of the number of instantaneous duration conjurations that deal damage that I have modified with dazing metamagic. Probably clashing rocks to make sure you don't have spell immunity. Id purposefully fail my attack roll so you don't accidentally get buried for extra protection -- dazing cares about saves upon damage, so this woudnt matter. While you were dazed, I would finish peppering you with whatever instantaneous duration conjuration spells I want. 9 rounds to kill a sorcerer with HP damage while dazed with no magical protection? I think Ill make it.
Kayerloth wrote: and what kind of spell caster starts a spell duel by casting AMF anyway, that ought to be an auto disqualifyer on principle alone. Heck just wish a Dead Magic area into existence why don't you :p Why don't I indeed!
Adept_Woodwright wrote:
If AMF is up, I hit you with one of the number of instantaneous duration conjurations that deal damage that I have modified with dazing metamagic. Probably clashing rocks to make sure you don't have spell immunity. Id purposefully fail my attack roll so you don't accidentally get buried for extra protection -- dazing cares about saves upon damage, so this woudnt matter. While you were dazed, I would finish peppering you with whatever instantaneous duration conjuration spells I want. 9 rounds to kill a sorcerer with HP damage while dazed with no magical protection? I think Ill make it. Now THIS is something. Of course, I dont know if AMF has a visible component, so you may not know to lead with this or not. Either way...I wish I was immune to HP damage! :D
@ Kayerloth
Yeah, I felt pretty obnoxious with that suggestion. Clashing rocks is more likely (Or Pellet Blast. Or Acidic Spray. Etc.)
And Ive been operating under the assumption for my past few posts that both casters need to be under a spellbane that prevents Wish from affecting them (and effectively from casting Wish themselves)
The instantaneous lava conjuration with Wish would still work -- if they work at all -- even with this protection.
@kikidmonkey
This is why Analyze Dweomer or Greater Arcane Sight are on my buff list. Whatever buffs you have, I know what they are. The only thing Im unaware of would be the information inherent to your character.
I suppose an argument could be made that these could not pierce antimagic field. Even then, I would know that you had Antimagic Field, just not the stuff you had under it
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