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I'm creating a Shaitan binder (Oread archetype for the summoner) and I'm planning on going for a reach weapon duo with the summoner picking up butterfly's sting to pass off crits to my eidolon who will be using a Naginata.
However I couldn't find a good answer to one of the things I wanted to do so I'm just plopping the (level 1) build here and ask for help to see if I'm doing something illegal :)
Strength 18 +4 (16 base, +2 from shaitan binder)
Dexterity 12 +1
Constitution 13 +1
Intelligence 7 -2
Wisdom 10 +0
Charisma 11 +0
Feat
- Additional Traits
Traits
- Heirloom Weapon (Naginata proficiency)
- Armor Expert
Equipment
Naginata (+5 to hit, 1d8+6 /x4, reach)
Wooden Armor (+3 armor, 0 check penalty)
Evolutions
Claw (free)
Limbs (arms) (free)
Limbs (legs) (free)
Improved Natural Armor (1 point)
Skilled (1 point, perception)
Reach (1 point, manufactured weapon attack / Naginata)
HP: 6 (5,5 +1)
AC: 18 (10 +1 dex, +3 armor, +4 natural armor)
Fort: 3
Ref: 1
Will: 2
Skills: (only those with ranks in them)
Perception (Wis) 1 rank, +3 class, +8 skilled = +12
Sense Motive (Wis) 1 rank, +3 class = +4
Swim (Str) 1 rank, +3 class, +4 strength = +8
Heal (Wis) 1 rank, +3 class = +4
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You need to buy the evolution to allow you to use weapons, Weapon Training.
2 points gets you simple weapons (at which time it could use a longspear), +2 points gets you martial weapons.
APG pg 63.
The Reach evolution says it applies to an attack. I think it is very questionable if Weapon Training qualifies as an attack. Rather than do that, I would suggest you learn the Long Arm spell and cast it on your Eidolon.
If you are planning to put that armor on the Eidolon you also have a problem. They can not use armor.
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I get weapon proficiency Naginata from the Heirloom Weapon trait which I get by spending a feat on additional traits, so no need for weapon training.
Reach evolution applies to an attack, which unlike other evolutions doesn't specify that it has to be a natural attack. My manufactured weapon is my primary attack so I'm applying it to that.
Longarm is no good to me, as I cannot cast it on my eidolon due to being a Shaitan Binder.
I completely missed the line about the no armor use, so my thanks for pointing that out.
You could just replace the additional traits feat with a regular weapon proficiency feat. Then you don't have to justify to your GM how an eidolon can inherit a weapon.
Sorry, you can't use a feat to get around the 2 point Weapon Training evolution. It is questionable if after buying Weapon Training you could use a feat to get a trait that allows a single exotic weapon.
Expect table variation. There are a lot of GMs that already don't like Summoners, bringing this to the table is not going to help that.
I'm not sure why you can't cast Long Arm. The range is personal and Target is you. The Eidolon Share Spell ability allows you to cast the spell on them. What prevents this from working?
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You could just replace the additional traits feat with a regular weapon proficiency feat. Then you don't have to justify to your GM how an eidolon can inherit a weapon.
Yeah, I've done that now because I missed the part of no armor allowed.
Sorry, you can't use a feat to get around the 2 point Weapon Training evolution. It is questionable if after buying Weapon Training you could use a feat to get a trait that allows a single exotic weapon.
Expect table variation. There are a lot of GMs that already don't like Summoners, bringing this to the table is not going to help that.
I'm not sure why you can't cast Long Arm. The range is personal and Target is you. The Eidolon Share Spell ability allows you to cast the spell on them. What prevents this from working?
Why can I not use a feat to get weapon proficiency? I'm really puzzled about this, can you point me to an FAQ or where in the book I can find that rule?
As a Shaitan Binder my eidolon doesn't get the Share Spell ability, that's why I cannot use Long Arm :)
Eidolons do not get traits. I personally would heavily question your use of the feat.
I simply would not allow you to get around purchasing the evolutions you're supposed to buy for weapon use, if I audited your character.
Summoners are an abomination enough as a class, cheesing with them is not going to make them anything but even less popular.
You also neglected the fact that eidolons can not wear armor... at all. Armor disrupts the connection between the eidolon and the summoner, and there is no rules legal way to get around it. You can have the appearance of armor with the way you shape your eidolon, but not armor itself.
Eidolons do not have restrictions on feats last time I checked, so using Additional Traits in that way is perfectly legal, as Additional Traits does not have any prerequisites.
However since I already admitted that I missed the rule on no armor wearing ever, I am dropping the Additional Traits feat for Martial Weapon Profiency: Naginata.
I dont see a problem with picking weapon prof feat but the additional trait May meet resistance somewhere. The armor is not working for the Eidolon unless i miss a special rule with wooden armor or sheitan guy.
Also the reac with weapon attack May not fly everywhere.
Good luck.
The feat choice works fine; it's a resource you cannot reclaim after being set, and it is a classic example of fixed options being stronger in a specific situation vs flexible options: (Extra Evolution vs Martial Weapon Profiency. Feat = Feat).
As a Shaitan Binder my eidolon doesn't get the Share Spell ability, that's why I cannot use Long Arm :)
Ouch! I had missed that line.
The Martial Weapon Proficiency to get Naginata is more likely to be acceptable but expect GMs to question you using a feat for something that normally takes an evolution. A large part of the problem here is that the limit on number of attacks does not include weapons and many have used this to create the Kali of Eidolons. It is by many considered a rules exploit.
I still think that taking Reach evolution with a weapon is dodgy.
I would suggest that if you want to minimize table variation, you check with your local VC and ask them to rule on if they think it is legal. That way when a GM questions it, you can state that your ran it past the VC.
By the way, I assume you have some sort of boon to be able to run an Oread?
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As a Shaitan Binder my eidolon doesn't get the Share Spell ability, that's why I cannot use Long Arm :)Ouch! I had missed that line.
The Martial Weapon Proficiency to get Naginata is more likely to be acceptable but expect GMs to question you using a feat for something that normally takes an evolution. A large part of the problem here is that the limit on number of attacks does not include weapons and many have used this to create the Kali of Eidolons. It is by many considered a rules exploit.
I still think that taking Reach evolution with a weapon is dodgy.
I would suggest that if you want to minimize table variation, you check with your local VC and ask them to rule on if they think it is legal. That way when a GM questions it, you can state that your ran it past the VC.
By the way, I assume you have some sort of boon to be able to run an Oread?
Yeah, I have an Oread boon, which is the only reason I'm even creating a summoner.
As for the amount of attacks, the way I'm building my eidolon, it'll never get more than 2 attacks (not counting attack of oppertunities), as iterative attacks don't come up until level 8 for the first one, and level 14 for the second one, which is outside the scope of PFS. If the claws weren't a free evolution I wouldn't even pick those for this build.
The reach evolution is the primary reason I posted this. None of the posts I could find had an agreement of sorts and the FAQ on the reach evolution only touches upon the fact that it's only for a single attack and not for all attacks of the type you choose. So if you have 2 claw attacks, it only counts for a single claw.
I guess I'll talk it over with the VC and VL's.
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Really curious, what weapon do you plan on the Summoner useing to fish for crits? Summoners are proficient with simple weapons, not many good choices with wide crit range weapons themselves. Plan on heirloom weapon yourself?
While most tables run eidolons initiative on the summon's turn, I believe somewhere.in ultimate campaign, it officially says eidolons got on their own initiative. This could lead to other people getting a crit with a x2 weapon and a measly str bonus.
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I'm planning on picking up the fauchard. (reach, 18-20 threat range)
Level 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard
Level 5: Butterfly's Sting
Level 7: Filler feat
Level 8: Retrain filler feat to Improved Crit
As for the initiative thing, that's what delay and ready actions are for :)
At the moment I'm the about the only player in the region who actually runs seperate initiatives for my hunter and animal companion, so I'm not too worried about not being able to pass off the crits if I ever get them.
The advantage of PFS that the letter of the rules is what counts, so if the reach evolution is possible by the letter I could do it. The only reason for wanting the reach evolution is that the eidolon at first level is a bit fragile and I wanted it to stay away from direct melee.