eldritch scion wording and magus archtypes


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Advanced class guide wrote:
This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.

from the eldritch scion archetype, i'm specifically looking at the bold part

ultimate magic wrote:
This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

now using bladebound as an example the specific text says this ability, which according to eldritch scion should affect the eldritch pool.

I think this is a case of specific trumping general, the general being that two archetypes can not replace or modify the same ability.as a side not this only effects bladebound, greensting, and card caster, the rest that alter the arcane pool also alter spell recall, or knowledge pool.

now then could someone explain to me why this is supposedly wrong, and thank you for helping clear my confusion.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.

Eldritch Scion replaces the Arcane Pool feature, and Bladebound alters the same ability. So they are incompatible archetypes.


Gisher wrote:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.
Eldritch Scion replaces the Arcane Pool feature, and Bladebound alters the same ability. So they are incompatible archetypes.

Not so fast! Although Eldritch Scion states it replaces arcane pool it also states that abilities which modify arcane pool also affect eldritch pool. Could that include other archetypes? Could it be interpreted that the specific (eldritch pool = arcane pool) trumps the general rule (archetypes cannot replace the same ability).

It's a valid discussion.


Shane LeRose wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.
Eldritch Scion replaces the Arcane Pool feature, and Bladebound alters the same ability. So they are incompatible archetypes.

Not so fast! Although Eldritch Scion states it replaces arcane pool it also states that abilities which modify arcane pool also affect eldritch pool. Could that include other archetypes? Could it be interpreted that the specific (eldritch pool = arcane pool) trumps the general rule (archetypes cannot replace the same ability).

It's a valid discussion.

I would agree, though more in the benefit of making this dodgily worded archetype more accessible.


Shane LeRose wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Advanced Class Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.
Eldritch Scion replaces the Arcane Pool feature, and Bladebound alters the same ability. So they are incompatible archetypes.

Not so fast! Although Eldritch Scion states it replaces arcane pool it also states that abilities which modify arcane pool also affect eldritch pool. Could that include other archetypes? Could it be interpreted that the specific (eldritch pool = arcane pool) trumps the general rule (archetypes cannot replace the same ability).

It's a valid discussion.

I believe the eldritch scion's wording is because it changes the NAME of the Arcane Pool to Eldritch Pool. That statement is so that other effects that alter and/or use the arcane pool would still work with the new eldritch pool. For instance - magus arcana that say you have to spend an arcane pool point to use it - would not function for the eldritch scion without that statement. The Extra Arcane Pool feat works on the Eldritch pool because of this sentence. A Ring of Arcane Mastery would work for storing eldritch pool points and dishing them back out at will - because of this sentence.

I do not believe this wording in any way affects the archetype stacking rules.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm still not really sure why it was necessary to rename the pool at all.


Lavawight wrote:
I'm still not really sure why it was necessary to rename the pool at all.

It wasn't. Flavor - then the flavor caused problems - so they had to add the blurb that 'this name is the same as the old name - pay no attention to the name behind the curtain'. Mainly, it was changed because 'properly' their pool of energy is NOT arcane in nature - but eldritch - so it makes sense - unless they are of the arcane bloodline - than it is arcane eldritch - or something.. now I'm confused...


CraziFuzzy I'd agree with you except for the word they use ability, which is the exact same wording used in other archetypes, now this also makes me worry that feats and maybe FCB do not work on the eldritch pool because of that same wording not working with feats because they lack the same wording.

that wording is why I asked the question of whether they stack because for PFS RAW it reads as working with archetypes but not feats/FCB which would be problematic.


I thought most archetypes referred to them as class features, not abilities. A feature can grant one or more abilities. A feat, trait, race, etc can also grant abilities.


ultimate magic wrote:


Black Blade (Ex)

At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus (see sidebar). A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class.

Instead of the normal arcane pool amount, the bladebound magus’s arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/3 his level (minimum 1) plus his Intelligence bonus.

This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

the arcane pool is a class feature, the black blade which alters the arcane pool is apparently an ability and class feature according to the wording, the reason for that difference shows up in the last sentence.


The Black Blade 'feature' contains 2 'abilities'.

The first is the black blade weapon itself.
The other is the reduction in arcane pool.

It is the second 'ability' that changes the arcane pool class feature (in essence, changing one 'ability' of the Arcane Pool class feature - the ability to have a pool itself - it does not touch the rest of the Arcane Pool feature, which is the ability to temporarily enchant weapons.

Contrast that with the wording of the Eldritch pool, which says it REPLACES the arcane pool feature - which means the entire text (all abilities) of the eldritch pool replaces the entire text (all abilities) of the arcane pool feature.


advanced class guide wrote:
This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.

yes the eldritch pool ability does replace the arcane pool, but on the same note it also says that abilities that modify the arcane pool modify the eldritch pool which is why I wonder if I can be a eldritch bladebound scion.


alternis sol wrote:
advanced class guide wrote:
This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.
yes the eldritch pool ability does replace the arcane pool, but on the same note it also says that abilities that modify the arcane pool modify the eldritch pool which is why I wonder if I can be a eldritch bladebound scion.

Because the archetype rules prevent two alterations. It doesn't matter that Eldritch Pool can be modified like Arcane Pool, the modification itself is illegal.


that is where the specific rule trumps general comes in, the general rule is the the archetype rules and the specific rule is the eldritch scion saying that you can modify the eldritch pool with specific wording that only show up in other archetypes. as a side note agian this would only allow you to combine bladebound, greensting, and card caster with eldritch scion.

if you have a archetype rule stating it overrides this please paste it so I can see it.


alternis sol wrote:

that is where the specific rule trumps general comes in, the general rule is the the archetype rules and the specific rule is the eldritch scion saying that you can modify the eldritch pool with specific wording that only show up in other archetypes. as a side note agian this would only allow you to combine bladebound, greensting, and card caster with eldritch scion.

if you have a archetype rule stating it overrides this please paste it so I can see it.

You are misinterpreting the Eldritch Pool rule. It simply lets things that can modify arcane pool modify eldritch pool, it does not interact with the archetype change limitations. I.e., Bladebound isn't forbidden because you no longer have an arcane pool due to eldritch pool, it is forbidden because you have already altered arcane pool once.


I'd agree if they didn't use the word ability which only shows up in the archetype wording and no where else so either the second bit of eldritch scion is useless, needs changed to feats/FCB or does what it reads as and allows you to take one of 3 archetypes that don't conflict else where.

if I've missed something that use ability in the wording please post it as it would explain why the wording is so confusing to me.


alternis sol wrote:

I'd agree if they didn't use the word ability which only shows up in the archetype wording and no where else so either the second bit of eldritch scion is useless, needs changed to feats/FCB or does what it reads as and allows you to take one of 3 archetypes that don't conflict else where.

if I've missed something that use ability in the wording please post it as it would explain why the wording is so confusing to me.

Ability is a catch-all term, used instead of everything. It is most definitely not just used in archetype descriptions (see Ability Scores, Special Abilities) Anything that modifies arcane pool can modify eldritch pool.


alternis sol wrote:
advanced class guide wrote:
This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.
yes the eldritch pool ability does replace the arcane pool, but on the same note it also says that abilities that modify the arcane pool modify the eldritch pool which is why I wonder if I can be a eldritch bladebound scion.

By that description - IF you were a bladebound eldritch scion, then yes, the two abilities would affect each other. however - by the archetype rules you cannot BE a bladebound eldritch scion, because of the conflicting features requirement for selecting multiple archetypes, so you would never have both abilities to interact with each other.

It isn't a matter of whether the abilities can interact with each other, it's a matter of the requirements to even acquire those abilities.


Now, not directly related to this, but I do feel the archetype stacking rules are a bit up to interpretation in a few instances. Some archetype are poorly written, and it's not clear what specific features are affected by a given archetype feature. Then on 'features' that are altered by two different archetypes, but altered in completely non-conflicting ways. I made an example a few days ago of the Eldritch Scion and the Kapenia Dancer - both in some way affect spellcasting. The Eldritch Scion completely changes the spell list used, and the spellcasting stat - the Kapenia Dancer reduces the spell slots by one per spell level. Those two modifications are in no way, mechanically, conflicting - the Eldritch Scion does not have a different number of spells/level than a base magus - so there's no conflict with the Kapenia Dancer's spellcasting modification. The determination would have to be whether they, the spell list, the spellcasting ability, and the spell slots, are all the same class feature, or if they are independent features that just happen to interact, or if they are all just called 'spellcasting' as one complete lump.


The Archetype stacking rules are very harsh. RAW/PFS those two do not stack.
It is however a highly acceptable as a house rule for home games to allow it.


NikolaiJuno wrote:

The Archetype stacking rules are very harsh. RAW/PFS those two do not stack.

It is however a highly acceptable as a house rule for home games to allow it.

Has that been ruled on? The eldritch scion clause could be interpreted to allow archetype stacking. Paizo could just shrug and say, "go for it." It is not beyond the realm of possibility.


Shane LeRose wrote:
NikolaiJuno wrote:

The Archetype stacking rules are very harsh. RAW/PFS those two do not stack.

It is however a highly acceptable as a house rule for home games to allow it.
Has that been ruled on? The eldritch scion clause could be interpreted to allow archetype stacking. Paizo could just shrug and say, "go for it." It is not beyond the realm of possibility.

I doubt it. That's not something Paizo is likely to do.

This FAQ is their answer for an even less conflicting combo.

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.

Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Apples and oranges.

I'm talking about how the eldritch scion archetype has only one change to the arcane pool, and that is to change the name, but allow it to interact with abilities that name arcane pool. That is light years different from the cross/wild arguement.

It doesn't hurt or diminish the game. Plus eldritch scion, though a weak archetype on its own, is insanely popular. People want to use it and I think people should get what they want every once in awhile.


Again there are many archetypes that have very soft conflicts with each other. The only one Paizo has ever ruled as stackable is the Qinggong Monk, and that is a very special case. I can't see them making another ruling like that.


Shane LeRose wrote:
Plus eldritch scion, though a weak archetype on its own, is insanely popular. People want to use it and I think people should get what they want every once in awhile.

I don't see how in any way Eldritch Scion is a weak archetype, you get a few abilities a little late in exchange for a Bloodrager bloodline. You get spontaneous casting and Int->Cha which is at worst a strait trade. You lose knowledge pool and spell recall which are unnecessary and make no sense with spontaneous casting. If you would have even used either or both abilities you have a lot more pool points to use elsewhere.

Int->Cha gives you a lot of opportunities with multiclassing that a standard Magus doesn't have/will be worse at do to MAD problems.

Depending on how you use it Eldritch Scion can be as good as or better than a standard Magus, even without other archetypes.


Shane LeRose wrote:

Apples and oranges.

I'm talking about how the eldritch scion archetype has only one change to the arcane pool, and that is to change the name, but allow it to interact with abilities that name arcane pool. That is light years different from the cross/wild arguement.

It doesn't hurt or diminish the game. Plus eldritch scion, though a weak archetype on its own, is insanely popular. People want to use it and I think people should get what they want every once in awhile.

This is a huge misrepresentation of what eldritch pool does. Eldritch Pool is the class feature that controls the use of bloodline powers, and changes all Magus Int-based class features and spells(which can be a big deal see other altered class issues) to be Cha-based. I mean, counting as an arcane pool is technically a secondary feature, as you don't gain that until level 4. Eldritch Pool is without question a more powerful feature than arcane pool (It literally does everything arcane pool does plus more), and should and does count as an alteration for archetype purposes.


Has an FAQ answered the question of the eldritch scion blade bound archetypes stacking yet?


Rylden wrote:
Has an FAQ answered the question of the eldritch scion blade bound archetypes stacking yet?

There hasn't been a FAQ and it is extremely unlikely to be one, as the answer is clear by the current rules, you cant take both.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / eldritch scion wording and magus archtypes All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.