Need Help Balancing Party Composition Quick!


Advice


So our Rise of the Runelord Party is level 8 and our party composition is pretty messed up. We have a rogue who has tried to focus on both melee and range, a ninja who focuses on melee, a blaster caster sylph sorcerer, and an undead lord cleric who has been pretty irregular in showing up to our games.

I feel like our party is lacking an actual close range fighter type, a intelligence-based caster, and a healer. I just died last session which has given me the opportunity to re-roll a new character. Problem is, our DM penalizes you for dying so I wasn't able to choose where my stats were placed.

So I need to make a 8th level character to balance our party, but the problem is this character will have base-stats of 11 STR 12 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 14 WIS and 13 CHA not including the +2 to whatever stat and race bonuses . Any and all advice is appreciated as I have to whip up this character by tomorrow.


sounds like you need a bard. also sounds like interesting races are open. hmm...how about an Ifrit bard using Fire Music?

fire elemental sorcerer 1/bard 7, take Fire Music and summon monster spells

a) your summons get to be the front line/flank buddies
b) inspire courage
c) Fire Music, which can be fun
d) lore, good knowledge checks
e) sport some freaky glowing tattoos
f) take the fire insight alternate racial, and hope that Fire Music lets your summons last longer?
g) cast shout, and call it 'sound and fiery, signifying nothing'. then take Perform (act) and misquote Shakespeare with fire/heat puns all day

stats
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 15

doable

Liberty's Edge

An extra cleric might help I wrote a build at the end of the versatile deity post at the end might help you. Giving you aoe healing and damage as well as melee damage effects. Adding the +2 to charisma for being level 8 and a human could add a 2 to wisdom as well.


Maybe a magus?


You need a consistent divine type. With those stats no need to be in melee.

I am going to suggest you focus on summoning, and battlefield control.

Druid-dwarf
Cleric-dwarf
Wizard-some race that boost intelligence, but not an elf since they take a con hit.

The druid has an animal companion and they can be really useful.

What level are you coming in at, and what level do you expect the game to end at?


Ugh, that stat spread is awful. I was going to recommend a control-based Dark Tapestry Oracle but I doubt that would be viable with such low charisma.


I like the Fire Bard build and I'll play around with it a bit. It looks really fun, but I need to make sure that I'll be able to survive with it.

Extra cleric is a possibility. I currently have a wonderful Life Oracle build that should be able to heal better then a cleric. I also have a Mystic Theurge Build that isn't the most optimized, but should still help fill the role of a healer and a caster.

I won't be able to play a magus, as that was my last character who died and I have to switch classes.

I'm coming in at level 8. I have yet to determine how much wealth my new character will start out with and the DM said that he would figure it out at the session. We probably intend to go through the whole campaign so we would stop at any level between 17 and 19. A druid might be nice, but I don't know how my stats are looking for wild-shaping business stuff.


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My advice? Dont play with a dm that punishes you for dying.

But in all seriousness, I would probably play a druid. Access to divine spells, if optimized and properly equiped the animal companion can be a capable front liner.

Second best might be a summoner. Cant heal everyone else (except possibly with umd) but you can heal the eidolon, who certainly can be a good front liner. And since I assume your desire for an int based caster is out of a need for knowledges, with the skilled evolution between you and your eidolon you can make a good show of covering the knowledges.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Ugh, that stat spread is awful. I was going to recommend a control-based Dark Tapestry Oracle but I doubt that would be viable with such low charisma.

I could boost the charisma up to 18 if I went with a middle-age aasimar with the Immortal Spark Alternate Racial Trait. I would like to hear how you would go about a Dark Tapestry Oracle as it seems like that theme would fit in well with our current party.


With those stats and you stated goal, I can only see something that puts other critters on the field. Not every-ones cup of tea, as it does mean more work.

Caster druid, focusing on your AC as a tank/front line fighter and SNA to put a wall of beatsies between the bad guys and the squishees? +4 wis from level up and racial bonus gives you 18 wis.

Alternatively Caster cleric w/sacred summons? maybe animal domain and boon companion for an AC?

Something disposable and hope stats are better next time?


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If you have a DM that punishes you for dying, respond equally as kindly and make, say, a heavens oracle.

Ah, but you're already dead...

So, summoner, and use pounce rules liberally on your elodion, along with maximum natural attacks, and a high STR.


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Malusiocus wrote:
A druid might be nice, but I don't know how my stats are looking for wild-shaping business stuff.

Let your companion fight, use wild shape for utility and mobility


Malusiocus wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Ugh, that stat spread is awful. I was going to recommend a control-based Dark Tapestry Oracle but I doubt that would be viable with such low charisma.
I could boost the charisma up to 18 if I went with a middle-age aasimar with the Immortal Spark Alternate Racial Trait. I would like to hear how you would go about a Dark Tapestry Oracle as it seems like that theme would fit in well with our current party.

You'd play it similar to a God Wizard, flying above the battlefield with your Wings of Darkness and laying down AoE debuffs and other support spells. Starting at 8th level should be nice since you get immediate access to Black Tentacles.


Also, if you could post builds with your suggestions, that would be great!


Kolokotroni wrote:
My advice? Dont play with a dm that punishes you for dying.

Actually, I would consider that to be serious advice.

Not your fault you died (at least I'm assuming it wasn't, you didn't do something extremely stupid that you're not telling us about, did you?), so why should you be punished twice for it?

Stand up for yourself, man! Flat out tell him you want to be able to make the character you want to play, just the same as everybody else has. Let you use your own point buy, or roll for your own stats, and assign them as you like, just like everybody else.

Otherwise? You're not playing, his game is down a player, and one of the ones thats left isn't reliable. He can either pull the stick out of his butt, or he can let his game die. Then one of you can be the GM instead.

Sorry, I just have zero respect or patience for bad GMs that try to be controlling over everything like that. His job as the GM is to make the game fun. If you aren't having fun the way he's doing it, then he is failing as a GM.

Liberty's Edge

Domains; Death & Healing
Human Feat: Extra Channeling
1st: Selective Channeling
3rd: Versatile Channeling
5th: Channel Smite (Bonus of damage equal to dice number at this level +3?)
7th: Improved Channel Smite (Provides pool of damage dice ie/ 4d6)
9th: Elemental Channel
11th: Alignment Channel
13th: Quick Channel (expend 2 uses of Channeling to perform as a move action)
15th: Channel Revival (should be able to do 6d6 positive energy at this level)
17th: Improved Channeling

However if you want to just create a Burst slayer/healer you can forgo the Channel Smite and Improved Channel smite to get Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel much sooner.

Giving you will save DC for half Damage or healing
The Domains would grant you some useful powers and spells for keeping yourself healthy as well as your allies.


Edymnion wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
My advice? Dont play with a dm that punishes you for dying.

Actually, I would consider that to be serious advice.

Not your fault you died (at least I'm assuming it wasn't, you didn't do something extremely stupid that you're not telling us about, did you?), so why should you be punished twice for it?

Stand up for yourself, man! Flat out tell him you want to be able to make the character you want to play, just the same as everybody else has. Let you use your own point buy, or roll for your own stats, and assign them as you like, just like everybody else.

Otherwise? You're not playing, his game is down a player, and one of the ones thats left isn't reliable. He can either pull the stick out of his butt, or he can let his game die. Then one of you can be the GM instead.

Sorry, I just have zero respect or patience for bad GMs that try to be controlling over everything like that. His job as the GM is to make the game fun. If you aren't having fun the way he's doing it, then he is failing as a GM.

I'm honestly ok with the whole penalty for death thing. Otherwise, our other players in the group would just recreate their character and give them a name that was similar to their dead character and say the new character is related to the old character. I'm ok with this new system, I like to be challenged and branch out to play characters I haven't played before. We had some really frustrating instances in the past, so this method is preferred.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Why not an Alchemist? Focus on bombs/extracts/formulae (with the discoveries that allow others to use your extracts/formulae) and then you have mutagens for backup physical stat boosting.

Plus...pretty much access to all magic. In potion form.

Silver Crusade

Response to Original Poster using the Forge of Combat Metaphor:

The Forge of Combat essay was written to solve this exact problem. It breaks pathfinder combat style into three categories:

Arm: Support
Hammer: Inflict HP damage
Anvil: Battlefield Control

The optimal party includes at least one Anvil, at least one Arm, and all the rest Hammers. Characters can have a Primary and Secondary role. Count a Secondary role as filling half a role.

This party includes a rogue, a ninja, a blaster sorcerer, and an undead lord cleric who often does not show up.

Counting the unreliable cleric, that's

Rogue => Hammer
Ninja => Hammer
Sorcerer => Hammer
Cleric? => Arm?

This party currently lacks anyone playing the Anvil role. The Sorcerer could easily choose to pick up that role. Arm is covered when the cleric shows up, but is otherwise totally vacant. Also note that the two melee hammers are both built on a rogue chassis.

As things are now, when the cleric doesn't show it's an all-Hammer group. The roles of Anvil and Arm are both vacant. That's a recipe for trouble.

The Forge of Combat wrote:

Groups without Anvils: Groups without anvils typically end up having an overabundance of hammers with one or two members playing the part of arms. These groups typically have fast, furious fights where the group takes a lot of damage. In these situations the arms often take on a reactive role providing healing and buffs as able while the hammers frantically try to end the encounter quickly. Depending on the nature of the hammers this often drains the arms very quickly of resources or forces the hammers into more and more defensive roles draining overall resources more as the group is not ending encounters efficiently enough.

Groups without Arms: Perhaps the most forgiving of the three major imbalances. These groups usually spend more resources than necessary to finish an encounter. When they don’t they exist on a razor’s edge where an enemies passed save or a characters failed save can mean the difference between failure and victory. This is much worse in groups that lack the means to magically heal themselves and are thus forced into shorter adventuring days or burning wealth on tons of cure light wound wands.

Conclusion: It's no wonder you guys are struggling, and characters are dying!

Suggestions: Perhaps talk to the Sorcerer player. If he wants to remain all blaster, and not do Battlefield Control at all, then you are probably best off covering that role. But, if the sorcerer is interested in augmenting his blasting with a side of Battlefield Control, that role is covered. All he needs to do is cast more Grease, Web, Stinking Cloud, and Summon Monster spells, at the cost of not so many blasts. An Anvil's first job is to arrange the battlefield so the group will triumph, so blasting becomes extracurricular fun.

That leaves the Arm role. While Undead Lord is a good archetype, it's not usually played to be strong on support, and the player often doesn't show up. The combination makes for a weak Arm. If you want to have a reliable Arm you probably need to create one yourself.

Both a Bard and an Evangelist Cleric make an excellent Arm. Inspire Courage will give the two rogue-based Hammers a much needed power boost. Here's a highly effective 1-point Evangelist Cleric build. If you want a tough front-liner, too, consider giving your Cleric the Animal Domain & Boon Companion feat for a full animal companion. Make sure your AC does less damage than the Ninja, lest you risk upstaging this character.

If the Sorcerer wants to stay all-blaster, perhaps consider instead playing a Witch. This gives you strong Battlefield Control and modest Support ability, which is just what your team needs.

Here's a best-case outcome for your group, after switching things around a little:

Rogue => Hammer
Ninja => Hammer
Sorcerer => Hammer, Secondary Anvil
Cleric? => Arm?
You => Arm, Secondary Anvil

That way you will be solid, whether or not the Cleric shows up.


Malusiocus wrote:
Also, if you could post builds with your suggestions, that would be great!

Here are guides to building classes


I add my voice to disapproving of your GM penalizing you for snuffing it.

The trials of your party underlines what I already thought, Clerics are just really nescessary. Well, other classes can do the job, but not as well at just healing.

And I love to play clerics with the fire domain. It gives you some of an arcane spellcasters ability to blow away opponents. And this fits your groups needs.

If your group is evil you can even rip off my previous character, Krr Maat, the Grippli cleric of Asmodeus, who's motto was "There is no God but Asmodeus and Krr Maat is his prophet". He wanted to crush, uh sorry, I mean, unite his race under his leadership.


So far I've decided on Dual-Cursed Life Oracle with the Blackened curse as his primary and the shattered minds curse as his secondary. I think this should be able to accomplish what is needed. Thank you guys for all your help so far!


11 STR 12 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 14 WIS and 13 CHA

Im not sure what you mean by +2 to whatever stat plus race,

When WE roll stats we do 3d6, with an additional +2 to any stat, PLUS any racial adjustments,

But I made that up, and am not aware of other groups doing that, is that what you mean?

If I had these stats, why my generation method,

I would make a Elf Kensai Magus.

I would take 2 levels of sohei monk for evasion and mounted skirmisher.
it's up to you if you use temple sword as you main weapon…i usually just ignore flurry unless I'm unarmed, I prefer Katana (In MY version of Golarion, there is no "oriental" characters per se… Japanese classes weapons and armor are of elven origin.)

so 6th Level Black Blade Kensai/2nd Level Sohei monk.

13 Str 14 Dex 12 con (with level 4 +1) 17 int (with level 8 +1) 14 wis and 13 cha.

You get AC from both Kensai INT and monk WIS and DEX (so +7 to ac)

Plus you can cast mount for all sorts of mounted skirmisher shenanigans (which gives new depth to mobility in combat as a magus)

I could also have a decent amount of fun as a Martial Master fighter with these stats. Maybe something with the dwarven racial cleave chain.

Silver Crusade

Malusiocus wrote:
So far I've decided on Dual-Cursed Life Oracle with the Blackened curse as his primary and the shattered minds curse as his secondary. I think this should be able to accomplish what is needed. Thank you guys for all your help so far!

Awesome choice! You can make Dual Cursed Misfortune fun for everyone, players and GMs, if you turn it into a running gag.

Harried GM: "Oooh the purple worm rolled a 20! Let's roll to confirm that critical, but someone is probably getting eaten."

You: "Misfortune strikes the purple worm!"

Harried GM: "Doh! It rolls a 13 on it's next attack. Oh well, I can hope."

Once the GM sets expectations that most 20s rolled will be Misfortuned away, everything is good.

A Life Oracle is a terrific Arm, and Dual Cursed gives quite an amazing little battlefield control effect. Remember that it will always use your swift/immediate action, so eschew any other ability that uses these. Every Misfortune you do is a good use of your swift action. Try to use it every round.


Pendagast wrote:

11 STR 12 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 14 WIS and 13 CHA

Im not sure what you mean by +2 to whatever stat plus race,

When WE roll stats we do 3d6, with an additional +2 to any stat, PLUS any racial adjustments,

But I made that up, and am not aware of other groups doing that, is that what you mean?

If I had these stats, why my generation method,

I would make a Elf Kensai Magus.

I would take 2 levels of sohei monk for evasion and mounted skirmisher.
it's up to you if you use temple sword as you main weapon…i usually just ignore flurry unless I'm unarmed, I prefer Katana (In MY version of Golarion, there is no "oriental" characters per se… Japanese classes weapons and armor are of elven origin.)

so 6th Level Black Blade Kensai/2nd Level Sohei monk.

13 Str 14 Dex 12 con (with level 4 +1) 17 int (with level 8 +1) 14 wis and 13 cha.

You get AC from both Kensai INT and monk WIS and DEX (so +7 to ac)

Plus you can cast mount for all sorts of mounted skirmisher shenanigans (which gives new depth to mobility in combat as a magus)

I could also have a decent amount of fun as a Martial Master fighter with these stats. Maybe something with the dwarven racial cleave chain.

The +2 to stats is referring to the extra ability point you receive upon reaching level 4 and the other extra ability point received upon reaching level 8. I'll look into the Kensai Magus.


Malusiocus wrote:
Blackened curse as his primary and the shattered minds curse as his secondary.

Do you mean Shattered Self? I can't seem to find any curse called "shattered minds", and even Shattered Self is not an oracle curse. Unless you have special permission, you have to choose a curse off the oracle curses list.


Just want to jump in andback up the summoner calls. That's a really good fit. Otherwise some kind of oracle, as you seem to be doing, is a great idea as well.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Malusiocus wrote:
Blackened curse as his primary and the shattered minds curse as his secondary.
Do you mean Shattered Self? I can't seem to find any curse called "shattered minds", and even Shattered Self is not an oracle curse. Unless you have special permission, you have to choose a curse off the oracle curses list.

I mean the shattered psyche curse, which is from the occultist adventurer's playtest.

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