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Don't know if this has come up before, but I feel like bringing it up now. What are some of the spells in Pathfinder that you find less than useful; or just dislike? You have to explain why.
I really dislike Enlarge. Why? Because you're trading a -2 to your AC and a -1 to reflex saves for a paltry +1 to damage and a little extra carrying capacity.
Some people will say, "What? No way!" But the +2 to Strength from changing size is countered by a -1 to hit for your new size and the -1 to AC for changing size stacks with the -1 to AC when you apply the -2 to your Dex. So it really is a +1 to damage for a -2 to AC. And you don't want to get surrounded if you're a large creature now. A whole lot more creatures can attack you when you're large.
What spells do you really dislike?
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Don't know if this has come up before, but I feel like bringing it up now. What are some of the spells in Pathfinder that you find less than useful; or just dislike? You have to explain why.
I really dislike Enlarge. Why? Because you're trading a -2 to your AC and a -1 to reflex saves for a paltry +1 to damage and a little extra carrying capacity.
Some people will say, "What? No way!" But the +2 to Strength from changing size is countered by a -1 to hit for your new size and the -1 to AC for changing size stacks with the -1 to AC when you apply the -2 to your Dex. So it really is a +1 to damage for a -2 to AC. And you don't want to get surrounded if you're a large creature now. A whole lot more creatures can attack you when you're large.
What spells do you really dislike?
Well with Enlarge person you generally also extend your reach (if you're medium) as well increase the weapon size damage. The increase weapon damage can often be 1 to 3.5 average weapon damage increase before crit, 1d6 Rapier becomes 1d8, but a great sword goes from 2d6 to 3d6.
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Enlarge can also be helpful if you need to break something (+4 bonus if you are large), to block entrances, to perform combat maneuvers (+3 bonus) and so on. I can see why you would dislike it if you're bothered about being hit.
My group completly ignored Summon Monster I-III because it never saw the summoned monster as anything but space wasters. Their attitude might change a bit now - the druid summoned a grizzly bear with Summon Nature's Ally IV and it helped them a great deal.
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Yes, enlarge can be useful for somethings; and yes, you do get the next size weapons damage, so maybe you get as much as a +3 to damage if you're two handing a weapon and your strength bonus is an odd number normally; but that wasn't the point. You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.
And if you have to waist a spell/potion/scroll to break down a door you might have other issues.
Plus you didn't mention what spells you dislike. Come on guys. :p
I use enlarge on many characters.
I liked Natural Rhythm a lot more before I reread it.
At first I thought it was the ultimate monk support spell.
But, as it turns out it has a limit of +5. And that's only IF you actually hit every time and it resets when you miss.
You can give higher bonuses at the same level with many less strings attached.
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The most useless spell is, without a doubt, malfunction, from Ultimate Magic. Let's just run down the list here:
-It's from the "transformation" school.
-Though it only targets constructs, it grants a Fortitude save, which constructs are immune to (except from effects that affect objects, which the spell does not).
-It allows spell resistance, and a good number of constructs are immune to magic.
-It's a 4th level spell that duplicates a 1st level spell (lesser confusion), except it only works against one creature type, targets that type's best saving throw, and lasts slightly longer.
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Yes, enlarge can be useful for somethings; and yes, you do get the next size weapons damage, so maybe you get as much as a +3 to damage if you're two handing a weapon and your strength bonus is an odd number normally; but that wasn't the point. You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.
And if you have to waist a spell/potion/scroll to break down a door you might have other issues.
Plus you didn't mention what spells you dislike. Come on guys. :p
The main benefit is it gives you reach, plus a bit of a pump on damage, which seems reasonable for a 1st level spell. Maybe throw in Cleave and things get interesting. The potential increase in damage is a lot more than three given weapon size increases and again that's not bad for a 1st level spell, when enemies are fairly fragile and this could kill with a single blow. As with all these things it depends on tactics. If you then go and stand in the middle of a mob of enemies, the problem isn't the spell, it's the way you are playing.
And since it is a 1st level spell, I'm not entirely sure what you expect - it was never going to be game-breakingly amazing. It has benefits and drawbacks, but if you are facing down Demogorgon it maybe won't be first on your list.
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The most useless spell is, without a doubt, malfunction, from Ultimate Magic. Let's just run down the list here:
-It's from the "transformation" school.
-Though it only targets constructs, it grants a Fortitude save, which constructs are immune to (except from effects that affect objects, which the spell does not).
-It allows spell resistance, and a good number of constructs are immune to magic.
-It's a 4th level spell that duplicates a 1st level spell (lesser confusion), except it only works against one creature type, targets that type's best saving throw, and lasts slightly longer.
Wow. That is horrible.
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Well, strictly, that's not a useless spell as such. That's someone not drafting the spell wording properly and it not being properly thought through and picked up in the editing. If it was corrected drafted (i.e. if affected constructs irrespectively) it might be OK.
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Zone of Truth!!! Worst spell ever.
In the best case scenario, (target fails save) it leaves you exactly where you would have been otherwise; unsure if the target is actually telling you the real truth or finding a way to lie without literally lying or telling you what they think and having it be false. Worst case, they know you are using magic that affects their mind, but are not bound in anyway to tell the truth, again, leaving you exactly where you would be had you not cast a 2nd level spell at all, minus the sense of false security this spell offers.
It either needs to be change to not offer a Save, or be a targeted buff that gives the Target a +20 (or higher) to Sense Motive or something.
Holy Smite (and similar) should probably be a lot more beefed up against Aligned Outsiders. No SR allowed, and Save only removes the status effect, not reduces damage. As it, it's pretty worthless against it's primary intended targets, and just doesn't scale well.
Death Ward was inadvertently nerfed to heck/uselessness as PF changed the way some many of the nastier Undead and Necromancy abilities work. For how little it actually does now, needs to be at least 1 target per level and probably a 10 Min/level spell.
Instant Armor is so close to being cool on many levels, but too many stipulations make it garbage. 1 Min/Level. It's a Force Armor, but it replaces your existing armor, and if you are a Cleric that's likely to cast this, that's probably an overall downgrade most of the time. Needs to either be 10 Mins/1 Hr per level or just a straight up Force Armor Bonus to AC that increases by level (+5 from 1st-5th, +6 from 6th-8th, etc. . .)
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Yes, enlarge can be useful for somethings; and yes, you do get the next size weapons damage, so maybe you get as much as a +3 to damage if you're two handing a weapon and your strength bonus is an odd number normally; but that wasn't the point. You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.
Enlarge has almost none of the downsides you seem to think it does.
Your to-hit stays the same (-1 Size bonus cancelled out by 2 Str).
Your damage increases by at least 1.
Your Reach increases by 5 feet (HUGE benefit).
Your CMB increases by 2 (+1 Str +1 Size).
Your CMD increases by 1 (-1 Dex, +1 Str, +1 Size).
The only downside is a -2 AC...which is insignificant compared to the benefits, and not a huge deal in the first place.
As for what spells I think are worthless...most Illusions, especially the lower level ones (Silent Image and Minor Image).
Illusion spells almost explicitly require GM Fiat to function.
Enlarge is, yes, a great level 1 spell. Choke a combat point with your enhanced reach. Ever seen an enlarged fighter using what was already a reach weapon, with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes? Yeah, good luck getting close enough to him to take any advantage of that -2 to AC...
There are many useless, weird, and absurd spells in the game that do so little for their level that I can't imagine people ever taking them (I don't even mean just in terms of munchkined combat usefulness... there's non-combat spells where I'm like, Really? Someone who can cast spells of that level decided that was a spell that needed to exist?).
Probably the one I find most ridiculous is Pup Shape. Has anyone ever used this? I don't mean that snarkily-- I'm asking if anyone has ever found this useful or seen it used in a game.
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Seven year old that talks to animals is quite fond of pup shape...
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Rynjin, your GM must be a extremely harsh, 'cause I find Silent Image to be the most-used first level spell in the game when taken over the course of a character. It's just so versatile it's ridiculous.
Not a fan Innocence. I took it on impulse figuring even with the limited scope of how it modifies your bluff skill it could still be handy for a character who is a pathological liar. It was only when I gave the spell a second glance a week later that I realized that its duration was a minute per level.
So basically at lower levels you're stuck either hoping you're lucky enough to be able to cast the spell discretely just before a time when you know you may need it or the first bluff check you'll make after the spell is cast would be to say that you weren't casting a thing. Given the wording of the text it's a little unclear if the +10 bonus would even apply to such a lie.
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Yes, enlarge can be useful for somethings; and yes, you do get the next size weapons damage, so maybe you get as much as a +3 to damage if you're two handing a weapon and your strength bonus is an odd number normally; but that wasn't the point. You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.
Enlarge has almost none of the downsides you seem to think it does.
Your to-hit stays the same (-1 Size bonus cancelled out by 2 Str).
Your damage increases by at least 1.
Your Reach increases by 5 feet (HUGE benefit).
Your CMB increases by 2 (+1 Str +1 Size).
Your CMD increases by 1 (-1 Dex, +1 Str, +1 Size).
The only downside is a -2 AC...which is insignificant compared to the benefits, and not a huge deal in the first place.
As for what spells I think are worthless...most Illusions, especially the lower level ones (Silent Image and Minor Image).
Illusion spells almost explicitly require GM Fiat to function.
For a grappling monk, or other character, I can see the boost to CMB and CMD as useful. But that seems to require the bad guys to cooperate a little too much for my tastes. As a potion fighters and monks can buy, okay (not something I would waste coin on though). As a spell my wizard would cast; still not wasting my time with enlarge. There are too many far better choices.
I will agree that in Society play a lot of low level illusions are pretty useless. In a well built home game though they can have a lot of great uses; but probably more for the GM.
Rynjin, your GM must be a extremely harsh, 'cause I find Silent Image to be the most-used first level spell in the game when taken over the course of a character. It's just so versatile it's ridiculous.
I've used Minor Image to some effect (turning myself invisible and sending "myself" ahead in the hallway), but that's about the extent of it.
Silent Image especially gets screwed because, well...it's silent. About the best thing you can do is make a wall or something with it, and even then, most of the time even the hired goons are going to be like "Why is there a wall here?"
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My least favourite spell is probably Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. The problem is that it takes 10 minutes to cast, but the range is only a few hundred feet and the duration is only a few minutes.
If the casting time were 1 round it would be okay, but the casting time really ruins it as a reconnaissance tool.
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Enlarge Peron also has he added benefits of A.) allowing you to use some combat maneuvers on creatures that would otherwise be immune, as well as making you yourself immune to them from others.
Bull Rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.
Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.
I could have sworn Grapple said the same thing, but I'm not seeing it.
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Rynjin, your GM must be a extremely harsh, 'cause I find Silent Image to be the most-used first level spell in the game when taken over the course of a character. It's just so versatile it's ridiculous.I've used Minor Image to some effect (turning myself invisible and sending "myself" ahead in the hallway), but that's about the extent of it.
Silent Image especially gets screwed because, well...it's silent. About the best thing you can do is make a wall or something with it, and even then, most of the time even the hired goons are going to be like "Why is there a wall here?"
Making a wall is super-useful!
Say you're fighting a bunch of ranged mooks. Cast silent image, but flavor it to appear like you're casting a spell that uses the surrounding earth to make a wall. So yeah, the mooks know you cast a spell, but until they get close enough to touch or shoot through the wall, they think you used a spell that actually makes a wall and will act accordingly (try to move around, most likely, giving your party time to plan).
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Making a wall is super-useful!
Say you're fighting a bunch of ranged mooks. Cast silent image ...
Like when the Bard saves his entire high level team by making a wall with Silent Image [OOTS]?
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Rynjin, your GM must be a extremely harsh, 'cause I find Silent Image to be the most-used first level spell in the game when taken over the course of a character. It's just so versatile it's ridiculous.I've used Minor Image to some effect (turning myself invisible and sending "myself" ahead in the hallway), but that's about the extent of it.
Silent Image especially gets screwed because, well...it's silent. About the best thing you can do is make a wall or something with it, and even then, most of the time even the hired goons are going to be like "Why is there a wall here?"
Making a wall is super-useful!
Say you're fighting a bunch of ranged mooks. Cast silent image, but flavor it to appear like you're casting a spell that uses the surrounding earth to make a wall. So yeah, the mooks know you cast a spell, but until they get close enough to touch or shoot through the wall, they think you used a spell that actually makes a wall and will act accordingly (try to move around, most likely, giving your party time to plan).
Which delays them for, at best, one of the mooks' turns when he runs up, tries to smash the wall, and hits thin air.
The jig is up, mates!
Since Wall of Stone is so trivial to smash through, except at very low levels when you're fighting Warrior 2's or something like that nobody's going to take the time to move around the wall. They're going to barrel right through it.
I kind of like the way it changes battles sometimes. IMC, a PC barbarian got popped with an Enlarge Person ... and the GM's bad guy bandits pulled away from melee and switched to bows. In another combat, it got kind of funny when a bad guy popped an Enlarge Person potion ... and the players responded by Enlarging the martial PC fighting him. It was kind of funny, actually.Yes, enlarge can be useful for somethings; and yes, you do get the next size weapons damage, so maybe you get as much as a +3 to damage if you're two handing a weapon and your strength bonus is an odd number normally; but that wasn't the point. You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.The main benefit is it gives you reach, plus a bit of a pump on damage, which seems reasonable for a 1st level spell. Maybe throw in Cleave and things get interesting. The potential increase in damage is a lot more than three given weapon size increases and again that's not bad for a 1st level spell, when enemies are fairly fragile and this could kill with a single blow. As with all these things it depends on tactics. If you then go and stand in the middle of a mob of enemies, the problem isn't the spell, it's the way you are playing.
The real question here is, why weren't they using bows in the first place?
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Illusions really kind of come down to just how your DM rules on how the work. I've seen some rule in ways that essentially made Illusions do absolutely nothing, and I've seen some that (in my opinion how they should work) basically treated as real until proven otherwise.
This in a sense, kind of made them like Enchantments, so if you made a "wall of stone" no one gets a save at all until they physically interact with it, such as trying to climb over it, bash it down, etc. . . Shooting it didn't help. Then, if you made the save, you recognized it was an Illusion. If not, your mind believed it, so subconsciously prevented you from acting otherwise. If you tried to push your hand through it, you would "feel" a solid wall, and your brain would essentially trick you into stopping from pushing more.
How believable the illusion was also played a part, but mostly if the caster was an idiot.
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I'm really not a fan of fireball. At base only useful if a lot of guys stand around not next to your group of guys. It doesn't do much damage, and enemies can save to take half damage. It's far from being useless but I'm always surprised at the lengths people will try to go to to trick it out.
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Vampire Touch just because it is often poorly used in Adventure Paths. There seems to be a tendency to give it to mid level BBEGs to use once they are losing in a combat. If a BBEG is vampire touching while outnumbered 4 to 1 he is prolonging the inevitable.
Just once I'd like to see an AP have an arcane trickster bad guy use a reach rod with vampiric touch as an opening attack and really drive up the damage with sneak.
I'm really not a fan of fireball. At base only useful if a lot of guys stand around not next to your group of guys. It doesn't do much damage, and enemies can save to take half damage. It's far from being useless but I'm always surprised at the lengths people will try to go to to trick it out.
Vanilla fireball, maybe, but its a really versatile spell to metamagic around with due to its low level and quickly scaling base damage.
My admixture wizard with magical lineage in fireball has forced the GM to never use mobs - only bosses survive his wrath.
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Vampire Touch just because it is often poorly used in Adventure Paths. There seems to be a tendency to give it to mid level BBEGs to use once they are losing in a combat. If a BBEG is vampire touching while outnumbered 4 to 1 he is prolonging the inevitable.
Woah. Lay off the best spell.
Great way to use low level summons or low level henchmen.
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Similacrum. It lacks enough information to be usable without the DM writing the rest of the spell first.
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I could understand a 1st or 2nd level utility spell. A Witch using the first version at 3rd level is even kind of acceptable, I guess, if you really need it to cover your tracks on a murder.
You will never convince me to spend an 8th level spell slot just to age a SINGLE CORPSE.
[..]
You will never convince me to spend an 8th level spell slot just to age a SINGLE CORPSE.
Wow, that's insane. It looks like it's supposed to prevent resurrection, but there's almost no chance that it would work to do that (adding 20 years of decay barely makes any difference when the limit is at least 130 years).
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I guess it was made terrible to balance out how awesome other Cleric spells are.
I tried to find some others, but I'm mostly finding spells that are terrible for their level, rather than useless altogether. Things like "summon some wooden golems" as a 9th level spell aren't useless, they're just a horrendous waste of potential.
EDIT: I just noticed it's not even on the Druid spell list. Even if it's a waste of a spell, Druids should have more right than anyone to waste their spells on that sort of thing.
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I'm not a fan of near-perfect duplication. For example, holy smite and its friends could really just be one spell, 'smite unbeliever'
The wording on charm person is also poor, but that also comes from a combat system that is many times more robust than the non-combat system (skills). What can you get someone to do, and how hard is it?
I'd rather see charm person work like jump, and give you a skill bonus to Diplomacy, assuming that Diplomacy worked better...
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This is just campaign bias, as we play with the same three DMs, but as we are all very experienced players we find Color Spray completely useless. But there is a caveat, even at level 1 we usually fight mobs of 5 hd creatures. (usually just skeletons that have been modified or some such. Never extra class levels, just extra HD)
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This is just campaign bias, as we play with the same three DMs, but as we are all very experienced players we find Color Spray completely useless. But there is a caveat, even at level 1 we usually fight mobs of 5 hd creatures. (usually just skeletons that have been modified or some such. Never extra class levels, just extra HD)
there is an oracle mystery. i think heaven. that let you get a revalution that lower the count of HD of targets of spells like color spray and hypnotic patren. (and also grant them as bonus known spells). makes color spray useful even at very high levels. AND hypnotic pattren can hit tons of lower level creatures( as it counts total hd and lowering theirs to naer negetive levels is easy).
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Yeah, that's from Heaven.
This is what you are looking for. If they are skeleton this isn't still working, but by level 1 you can affect monsters with 5-6 HD at full effect.
The most worthless spell?
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a soft cloth)
Effect
Range touch
Target one metal item of up to 1 sq. ft.
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw yes (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
Description
You polish a metal item until it is reflective enough to be used as a mirror. This does not prevent the item from later damage or corrosion that would ruin the mirrored surface. The spell can be cast only on a metal item with a fairly smooth and contiguous surface, such as a breastplate, a helm, a shield, or a sword, but not a mace, chainmail, or scale mail.
I mean, just use a mirror!
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i thought illusion (pattern) are visual effects. not mind effects. are udnead imune to visual effects?
also :
"just use a mirror!"
i just broke mine. which got me 7 years of abd luck starting with a Meduza riding a basilisk...
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Patterns are described as mind-affecting in the Undead traits section. Also immune to death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. I think the difference you may be thinking of is concerning figments, which are quasi-real and not mind-affecting (I believe).
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Wall of Fire - utterly crap damage, just walk through it and a CLW pot will sort you out.
Mirror Polish. Spend a 1st level slot to do only one of the things Prestidigitation already does. Yay?