Most worthless spells


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

ryric wrote:

Pretty much any d6/level damage spell isn't very good anymore unless you augment it with metamagic or class features. Hp have scaled way up since the days of 1e but the direct damage spells have remained the same or even gotten weaker.

Fireball and lightning bolt were different beasts when there was no cap on the number of dice. A 10th level magic-user averaged 25 hp, and did the same 10d6 we know and love. An 18th level magic-user averaged 34.5 hp, and did 18d6(average 63). That guy had a good chance of dying even if he made the save(cause 0 hp = dead in 1e). Heck the maximum possible hp for Mr. archmage in 1e was 73, if he had a 16+ Con and rolled max on every die(11d4+22con+7). There were deities with less than 100 hp.

Direct damage spells used to be serious business and fight winners all by themselves.

Far from worthless. Also still monumentally effective against swarms, troops and crowds of gribblies. There's a visceral joy to seeing 20 odd zombies disappear that isn't matched by all the blue-deck zone control shenanigans in the world.

If crap-tier level, zombies, goblins and kobolds miraculously disappear from your campaign just because you level up, your DM is depriving you.

Also that kind of stuff adds up.

Speaking as a DM, fireballs, cones of cold, rays, gloombolts and the like are a hell of a lot better to equip groups of mages with then the battlefield control stuff everyone touts because unless their CR is on par or above, the heroes tend to save their way through most of it.

I threatened a 12th level party with a swarm of CR 1 mephits. They just kept using their dinky steam attacks over, and over, and over again. 1s and 2s added up.

Lightning bolt and fireball used to be more effective in the old days due to lower hp. They're still far from 'worthless.' Admittedly, lightning bolt used to be a lot more useful when it bounced and you might hit someone multiple times with it, but the days of billiard lightning are sadly gone.

If I found a wand of fireball I'd go 'neat!' if I found a wand of zone of truth I'd sell the thing almost immediately.

If I was encumbered and the choice was carrying the wand of zone of truth or a pound of delicious chocolate, I'd leave the wand behind.

And yes I know its worth more gp.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:

cure light wounds, you are generally better off getting it on a wand because it just isn't worth a 1st level spell slot when most of the classes that have it generally have better things to do with 1st level spell slots.

1d8+5 for a 1st level slot isn't much better than 1d8+1 from a charge of a 1st level wand. essentially, you are blowing a more valuable combat resource for an extra 4 HP one time and to save 15GP.

you are better off using that 1st level slot on entropic shield, obscuring mist, charm person or a similar spell that could either proactively mitigate damage or make an enemy surrender for a bit.

Cure Light Wounds is by far the most utilized spell in the game. I mean, right there you even talk about its utility on a wand.

That said, for most PC clerics, it doesn't even require a spell slot - just whatever is left over at the end of the day and wasn't used while adventuring turns into Cure XXXX Wounds until they're gone, before you even touch the wands.


Spook205 wrote:
ryric wrote:

Pretty much any d6/level damage spell isn't very good anymore unless you augment it with metamagic or class features. Hp have scaled way up since the days of 1e but the direct damage spells have remained the same or even gotten weaker.

Fireball and lightning bolt were different beasts when there was no cap on the number of dice. A 10th level magic-user averaged 25 hp, and did the same 10d6 we know and love. An 18th level magic-user averaged 34.5 hp, and did 18d6(average 63). That guy had a good chance of dying even if he made the save(cause 0 hp = dead in 1e). Heck the maximum possible hp for Mr. archmage in 1e was 73, if he had a 16+ Con and rolled max on every die(11d4+22con+7). There were deities with less than 100 hp.

Direct damage spells used to be serious business and fight winners all by themselves.

Far from worthless. Also still monumentally effective against swarms, troops and crowds of gribblies. There's a visceral joy to seeing 20 odd zombies disappear that isn't matched by all the blue-deck zone control shenanigans in the world.

If crap-tier level, zombies, goblins and kobolds miraculously disappear from your campaign just because you level up, your DM is depriving you.

Also that kind of stuff adds up.

Speaking as a DM, fireballs, cones of cold, rays, gloombolts and the like are a hell of a lot better to equip groups of mages with then the battlefield control stuff everyone touts because unless their CR is on par or above, the heroes tend to save their way through most of it.

I threatened a 12th level party with a swarm of CR 1 mephits. They just kept using their dinky steam attacks over, and over, and over again. 1s and 2s added up.

Lightning bolt and fireball used to be more effective in the old days due to lower hp. They're still far from 'worthless.' Admittedly, lightning bolt used to be a lot more useful when it bounced and you might hit someone multiple times with it, but the days of billiard lightning are...

You do bring up a huge table variance I have seen.

Generally, when I run an adventurer, I use random encounters. This means the players have a chance to run into something much stronger than then, but as they level, they also have the chance to run into encounters that are fairly easy.

I have also run large battles with large numbers of sub CR1 opponents. A level 1 warrior may not be much of a threat to a level 10 party, but if you are geared for single target combat, suddenly large numbers of low level enemies become a threat.

The usefunness of spells like fireball depends greatly on what knid of adventurers you are running.

Silver Crusade

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Charender wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
ryric wrote:

Pretty much any d6/level damage spell isn't very good anymore unless you augment it with metamagic or class features. Hp have scaled way up since the days of 1e but the direct damage spells have remained the same or even gotten weaker.

Fireball and lightning bolt were different beasts when there was no cap on the number of dice. A 10th level magic-user averaged 25 hp, and did the same 10d6 we know and love. An 18th level magic-user averaged 34.5 hp, and did 18d6(average 63). That guy had a good chance of dying even if he made the save(cause 0 hp = dead in 1e). Heck the maximum possible hp for Mr. archmage in 1e was 73, if he had a 16+ Con and rolled max on every die(11d4+22con+7). There were deities with less than 100 hp.

Direct damage spells used to be serious business and fight winners all by themselves.

Far from worthless. Also still monumentally effective against swarms, troops and crowds of gribblies. There's a visceral joy to seeing 20 odd zombies disappear that isn't matched by all the blue-deck zone control shenanigans in the world.

If crap-tier level, zombies, goblins and kobolds miraculously disappear from your campaign just because you level up, your DM is depriving you.

Also that kind of stuff adds up.

Speaking as a DM, fireballs, cones of cold, rays, gloombolts and the like are a hell of a lot better to equip groups of mages with then the battlefield control stuff everyone touts because unless their CR is on par or above, the heroes tend to save their way through most of it.

I threatened a 12th level party with a swarm of CR 1 mephits. They just kept using their dinky steam attacks over, and over, and over again. 1s and 2s added up.

Lightning bolt and fireball used to be more effective in the old days due to lower hp. They're still far from 'worthless.' Admittedly, lightning bolt used to be a lot more useful when it bounced and you might hit someone multiple times with it, but the days of

...

Yeah I don't want to open this kettle of fish, but the fact someone's trying to say fireball or cure light wounds is a worthless spell is kind of ridiculous. Its like saying 'Pickups are worthless' when your universe is driving the autobahn every day, whereas a guy who has to lug junk around considers them a staple.

I've actually been told high tier single target spells are less useful in my campaign because of my preference for a lot of on tier or a hell of a lot of below tier opponents I use instead of one or two baddies.

Back in 3.5 I even got told off for improper encounter design for not having every fight be against a wizard (the guy who told me off exclusively memorized enervation, feeblemind and meld into stone style stuff and got bolloxed by dealing with multiple teleporting outsiders, hordes of lemures, hundreds of kobolds, etc.)

Spells like symbol of striking, zone of truth and several others have clear, noticable drawbacks to them. Things that make you look at a spell and go 'why does this spell exist?' Or 'that spell would be great, but.'

Fireball blows crap up. It blows crap up good. I do not believe there is a PC alive who isn't a rogue or monk, who enjoys being hit by them even if the damage is 'merely' 20 or 30 so damage.

Fireball isn't a multipurpose tool spell that solves all problems. No spell should be a multipurpose tool spell that solves all problems.


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Spook205 wrote:
Yeah I don't want to open this kettle of fish, but the fact someone's trying to say fireball or cure light wounds is a worthless spell is kind of ridiculous. Its like saying 'Pickups are worthless' when your universe is driving the autobahn every day, whereas a guy who has to lug junk around considers them a staple.

Have to agree here. When I hear "this spell is worthless" I tend to assume that the spell under discussion should actually be worthless. As in, it has absolutely no value at all.

Instead, what we're seeing a lot of is "This spell may not be the optimal choice in all circumstances."


I would submit this one....

Dispel Magic
1. If you are dealing with an enemy caster where you would actually need to dispel them, a lot of times they are equal or higher level than the party, so you start off with a 50/50 chance of success or less.
2. Most enemy casters will have multiple spells on them, so either getting the spell you want is a crapshoot, or you must know exactly which spell is causing the problem.
3. If you know which spell is causing problem, then you likely already know how to work around the spell.
4. Even then, sometimes the problem is not being causes by a spell that is actually on the caster. For example, if you are dealing with a warrior who has a stupidly high hard to hit AC, the problem may be the greater magic vestment on his armor. In that case, you need to know to dispel his armor, not him.
5. Don't get me started on how useless counterspelling is. You are almost always better off readying an action to hit the enemy caster with something that does damage. A level 5 fireball does 17 damage on average, that would force a level 5 enemy caster to make a DC 27 + spell level concentration check with a d20 + 5 + casting stat. That is way better than a 50/50 chance to interrupt, AND you deal damage at the same time.

Now, greater dispel magic is a different story due to its ability to remove multiple spells in a single action, but the PF version of dispel magic took a huge hit when they limited it to only being able to remove a single spell per casting.


Dispel Magic will kill the Alarm magical traps are tied to.


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I disagree that Dispel is useless, but counterspelling is, for the most part.


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Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.

Silver Crusade

Ebon Hand wrote:
Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.

Yes but what if you're playing a character who at the start of the game is a wizard who has never set foot outside their tower. Poor bastard isn't going to know how to rough it. This is a ROLEplaying game. Sure from a optomizer standpoint a wizard should have put one of his many skill ranks into such a skill. But that is metagamey for a character who's never left the city.


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Ebon Hand wrote:
Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.

The case could be made that Survival might not account for finding North when you are in a dungeon or cave system where the traditional methods of divining North from nature do not exist.


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Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Ebon Hand wrote:
Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.
Yes but what if you're playing a character who at the start of the game is a wizard who has never set foot outside their tower. Poor bastard isn't going to know how to rough it. This is a ROLEplaying game. Sure from a optomizer standpoint a wizard should have put one of his many skill ranks into such a skill. But that is metagamey for a character who's never left the city.

Afaik only bards and druids get access to know direction. For bards level 0 spells known should be more precious than skill points. And I can think of few druid builds that would not have points in survival.

And as to survival not helping in dungeons: You can rule that way but RAW is clear that it works.

Edit: Sure, other casters can use a trait or buy an ioun stone to get the spell. But if you do one of those you'd better have a good reason to.

Sovereign Court

Fireball saved my party's skin against a large group of vampiric mists.

Those things are NASTY


Ooze licker wrote:
Wall of Fire - utterly crap damage, just walk through it and a CLW pot will sort you out.

Disagree:


  • double damage versus undead
  • lay down the wall along the combats "line of scrimmage", damage every round
  • things that do not make a spellcraft check, are not immune to spells, and are not mindless probably won't walk through the wall unless metagaming is going on

Sovereign Court

wall of fire suffers from the same problem as blade barrier: it's a pain to lay down and keep track of on a battle mat... if only someone could come up with an easy extendable/retractable curtain-like template (instead of the typical player response to drop something on the mat and knock most minis on their asses...)

Silver Crusade

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Just a Guess wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Ebon Hand wrote:
Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.
Yes but what if you're playing a character who at the start of the game is a wizard who has never set foot outside their tower. Poor bastard isn't going to know how to rough it. This is a ROLEplaying game. Sure from a optomizer standpoint a wizard should have put one of his many skill ranks into such a skill. But that is metagamey for a character who's never left the city.

Afaik only bards and druids get access to know direction. For bards level 0 spells known should be more precious than skill points. And I can think of few druid builds that would not have points in survival.

And as to survival not helping in dungeons: You can rule that way but RAW is clear that it works.

Edit: Sure, other casters can use a trait or buy an ioun stone to get the spell. But if you do one of those you'd better have a good reason to.

A bard could have just as easily never left a particular city in his life. Not all bards travel from place to place to place


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Ebon Hand wrote:
Know Direction -- worthless if anyone bothers to put a single point in Survival.
Yes but what if you're playing a character who at the start of the game is a wizard who has never set foot outside their tower. Poor bastard isn't going to know how to rough it. This is a ROLEplaying game. Sure from a optomizer standpoint a wizard should have put one of his many skill ranks into such a skill. But that is metagamey for a character who's never left the city.

Afaik only bards and druids get access to know direction. For bards level 0 spells known should be more precious than skill points. And I can think of few druid builds that would not have points in survival.

And as to survival not helping in dungeons: You can rule that way but RAW is clear that it works.

Edit: Sure, other casters can use a trait or buy an ioun stone to get the spell. But if you do one of those you'd better have a good reason to.

A bard could have just as easily never left a particular city in his life. Not all bards travel from place to place to place

And such a nontravelling bard would learn a travel magic spell?

Scarab Sages

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Voadam wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:


A bard could have just as easily never left a particular city in his life. Not all bards travel from place to place to place
And such a nontravelling bard would learn a travel magic spell?

They could be an Archivist, and use it to keep from getting lost in their own library.


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Imbicatus wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:


A bard could have just as easily never left a particular city in his life. Not all bards travel from place to place to place
And such a nontravelling bard would learn a travel magic spell?
They could be an Archivist, and use it to keep from getting lost in their own library.

You can never have too many books, not even when you need a Survival check to get to the bathroom.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
wall of fire suffers from the same problem as blade barrier: it's a pain to lay down and keep track of on a battle mat... if only someone could come up with an easy extendable/retractable curtain-like template (instead of the typical player response to drop something on the mat and knock most minis on their asses...)

Yarn works well or having a dry-erase surface to play on.

Sovereign Court

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YARRRRRRRR-n... :)

excellent!


Direct damage: There are level ranges where the melee doesn't QUITE do enough damage to kill the mooks- but a direct damage spell + martial attacks is just enough to clear most of the board. I've seen direct damage spells put to good use multiple times.

Combat healing: My arguments have already been made- not optimal in general does not mean not used in many specific cases

Grease: Potential combat winner. Lots of things have low reflex saves and grease disarms.

Sovereign Court

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Sloanzilla wrote:
Combat healing: My arguments have already been made- not optimal in general does not mean not used in many specific cases

Plus Heal is always an awesome option to keep in reserve.


Sloanzilla wrote:

Direct damage: There are level ranges where the melee doesn't QUITE do enough damage to kill the mooks- but a direct damage spell + martial attacks is just enough to clear most of the board. I've seen direct damage spells put to good use multiple times.

Combat healing: My arguments have already been made- not optimal in general does not mean not used in many specific cases

Grease: Potential combat winner. Lots of things have low reflex saves and grease disarms.

Direct damage touch attacks have their place, definitely, if just because they are touch attacks.

Scarab Sages

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Sloanzilla wrote:
Combat healing: My arguments have already been made- not optimal in general does not mean not used in many specific cases
Plus Heal is always an awesome option to keep in reserve.

Heal is the only healing spell that can actually keep pace with incoming damage. If cure spells did 1d6/level with the same caps as attack spells of their level, in combat healing would be a lot more viable in more situations.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
wall of fire suffers from the same problem as blade barrier: it's a pain to lay down and keep track of on a battle mat... if only someone could come up with an easy extendable/retractable curtain-like template (instead of the typical player response to drop something on the mat and knock most minis on their asses...)

May I suggest Litko tokens? I find them very useful for my games. They have a wall of fire one.


ryric wrote:

Pretty much any d6/level damage spell isn't very good anymore unless you augment it with metamagic or class features. Hp have scaled way up since the days of 1e but the direct damage spells have remained the same or even gotten weaker.

Fireball and lightning bolt were different beasts when there was no cap on the number of dice. A 10th level magic-user averaged 25 hp, and did the same 10d6 we know and love. An 18th level magic-user averaged 34.5 hp, and did 18d6(average 63). That guy had a good chance of dying even if he made the save(cause 0 hp = dead in 1e). Heck the maximum possible hp for Mr. archmage in 1e was 73, if he had a 16+ Con and rolled max on every die(11d4+22con+7). There were deities with less than 100 hp.

Direct damage spells used to be serious business and fight winners all by themselves.

I am running an old-school B/X game and the party wizard concentrates on damaging spells. He tends to be the spike damage guy; if there is a big enemy or something the party is having a hard time hitting he throws something in there. He can't do consistent damage since he doesn't have nearly enough slots to cast every combat round. But when he goes for it things go down.

But even then fireball and lightning bolt only do 1d6/level, and the average monster has 1d8/HD. So if he is facing an enemy with the same HD as the party's level, a fireball won't one-shot him even if he fails the save. But it's awesome if you are facing creatures with less HD than the wizard. In a 5th level adventure there is still a good chance of running into a pack of 2 HD lizard-men.

Of course, if you were playing AD&D the wizard could not cast fireball indoors without hitting himself and the party. Gary really didn't do the math when he wrote that (or maybe it was intentional). An AD&D fireball would fill 33 10'x10'x10' cubes if there wasn't room for its spherical shape.


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Emmit Svenson wrote:
Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.

However, now that Prestidigitation can not do anything, Wish can no longer duplicate it, meaning Prestidigitation works, which in turn means that Wish can duplicate it once more...

I think my next wizard will use this loop to power an arcane generator even more powerful than a hundred cats dropped with buttered toast tied to their backs.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
wall of fire suffers from the same problem as blade barrier: it's a pain to lay down and keep track of on a battle mat... if only someone could come up with an easy extendable/retractable curtain-like template (instead of the typical player response to drop something on the mat and knock most minis on their asses...)

get your self a spool of cheap copper wire, or just draw it on the battlemat


I have a pretty awesome halberd wielder in the game I DM and he just got Englarge. It's a game changer, no pun intended. His weapon jumps from a 1d10 to a 2d8, he's much more likely to be flanking which gives him another +2 bonus to hit, but the key thing is that he has such awesome reach that he can generally target enemies across the battlefield without more than a 5 foot step, which means he gets full round attacks even on an enemy as far as 20 feet away. That's kind of cool, right?

-Marsh


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A few notes.

Grease - has a great buffing use as well it can make being grappled harder. Especially at lower levels or for spontaneous casters a spell that has control, offense (disarm) and buffing utility is really good. It is on my short list of utility spells for many casters.

Ceremony - the more I read it the more I like it. It has a lot of utility for a low level spell. Definitely one that will see some NPC usage and remember that many of the effects are basically a communal embue with spell like ability (water breathing for example) and a sacred bonus that lasts days is nothing to sneeze at. Especially for a spell that a low level cleric could cast with the right materials. Perhaps not a spell for an oracle to learn but really nice for a cleric or warpriest to use before a multiday battle or adventure to provide some fairly cost effective long duration buffs or unusual effects. It is also something may work best as something granted to NPCs in many cases (ie make a whole bunch of villagers able to heals a little or able to light fires that can't easily be stopped etc)


I make spreadsheets for each character I play rating spells from the Core. Thus far I have a wizard up to 7th level spells and a Paladin up to 1st Level Spells; so using just spells in the Core the most worthless are:

Wizard Level 1 - Endure Elements (buy a coat or get into the shade in 20 years of rpg on and off have never had a use for this)
Wizard Level 2 - Summon Monster 2 (summon worthless cannon fodder)
Wizard Level 3 - Beast Shape 1 (nearly worthless)
Wizard Level 4 - Minor Creation (why not just buy it or find it)
Wizard Level 5 - Plant Shape 1 (nearly worthless, especially for a 5th level spell
Wizard Level 6 - Plant Shape 2 (see above)
Wizard Level 7 - Plant Shape 3 (see above)

Paladin 1 - Endure Elements & Virtue


Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Sloanzilla wrote:
Combat healing: My arguments have already been made- not optimal in general does not mean not used in many specific cases
Plus Heal is always an awesome option to keep in reserve.
Heal is the only healing spell that can actually keep pace with incoming damage. If cure spells did 1d6/level with the same caps as attack spells of their level, in combat healing would be a lot more viable in more situations.

Perhaps something like this?

Once a healing spell reaches the maximum 'x' (1d8+5 for CLW for example) it will then always cure maximum damage(so 13 for CLW). So assuming a 13-14 level game the base spells will be more useful
CLW-13
CMW-26

Since higher level adventures have been appearing
CSW-39

Liberty's Edge

Big Blue 22 wrote:

I make spreadsheets for each character I play rating spells from the Core. Thus far I have a wizard up to 7th level spells and a Paladin up to 1st Level Spells; so using just spells in the Core the most worthless are:

Wizard Level 1 - Endure Elements (buy a coat or get into the shade in 20 years of rpg on and off have never had a use for this)
Wizard Level 2 - Summon Monster 2 (summon worthless cannon fodder)
Wizard Level 3 - Beast Shape 1 (nearly worthless)
Wizard Level 4 - Minor Creation (why not just buy it or find it)
Wizard Level 5 - Plant Shape 1 (nearly worthless, especially for a 5th level spell
Wizard Level 6 - Plant Shape 2 (see above)
Wizard Level 7 - Plant Shape 3 (see above)

Paladin 1 - Endure Elements & Virtue

Someone's clearly never adventured across the desert before. It's a significant advantage if your opponents expect you to show up either exhausted from your trip, or sporting nothing but Hot Weather outfit, but instead you show up ready to fight sporting some full plate.


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Bleed. Come on, the target is prone, defenseless, dex 0, and unconscious, yet it gets a will save? Why can't you kick it, slap it, throw a rock at it, bite it, or ANYTHING else that would actually DO damage and as a side effect add the full effect of this spell?


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I'm going to have to go with the Bleed cantrip.

Saving Throw and SR involved (although I though unconscious creatures were automatically considered willing?)

I'm just curious who would spend the standard action using it, rather than throwing a dart or something at the downed guy.


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Zenogu wrote:

I'm going to have to go with the Bleed cantrip.

Saving Throw and SR involved (although I though unconscious creatures were automatically considered willing?)

I'm just curious who would spend the standard action using it, rather than throwing a dart or something at the downed guy.

THey're considered willing for spells like teleport which require willing but not a save but not for things that require a save.


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Op has a rather unconventional opinion about Enlarge person :P
Also somebody dissed virtue! My Oracle constantly chants Virtue and Guidance while we dungeon delve, it has saved my life!

Well Daze monster has to be the most worthless spell I know if you play pathfinder rules as written, not only is it a bad spell for its level it´s completely inferior to Ear-Piercing scream.
Daze monsters only causes the victim to be dazed, and has a HD cap, ear piercing scream does the same thing but also deals a good bit of damage and is'nt even restricted by HD.


Daze is a 0-level spell - as such for prepared spell casters it is a nice spell at low levels when you are restricted in your spells, the will save even for a 0 level spell won't be automatic for most foes and buying some time for your party is valuable.

After a few levels however it is pretty worthless - so while a prepared spell caster loses nearly nothing for knowing that spell (especially since many get all of their cantrips for free) for a spontaneous caster it is harder to justify as unlike Prestidigitation, message, mage hand, light or many other 0-level spells it will stop being useful at higher levels.


Rycaut wrote:

Daze is a 0-level spell - as such for prepared spell casters it is a nice spell at low levels when you are restricted in your spells, the will save even for a 0 level spell won't be automatic for most foes and buying some time for your party is valuable.

After a few levels however it is pretty worthless - so while a prepared spell caster loses nearly nothing for knowing that spell (especially since many get all of their cantrips for free) for a spontaneous caster it is harder to justify as unlike Prestidigitation, message, mage hand, light or many other 0-level spells it will stop being useful at higher levels.

He said Daze Monster, not Daze.

Daze Monster is just like Daze, except it hits creatures(not just humanoids) that are up to 6 HD.

Did I mention Daze Monster is a second level spell. It is competing with glitterdust and hideous laughter.

Daze itself isn't that bad at really early levels. Not a particularly spectacular use of an action, but probably better than a crossbow bolt if a caster wants to conserve their precious spell slots.

Sure isn't worth a second level slot though.


ah, sorry was reading too quickly - missed that he said Daze Monster - yeah, I agree that's a pretty horrible spell. Possibly better with some metamagic if you can get it to effect more HD (?) but really not as good as many many other options (dazed is really good if you can impose it.

Hideous Laughter does have some the +4 to the save if the creature is of a different "type" than the caster (and doesn't work at all on creatures with an INT lower than 2) but if it works it is very very good indeed.

Glitterdust is also solid, though I think some people overrate it (blinded is powerful but doesn't entirely end encounters). Blindness / Deafness is another very solid option (not least because it is a dismissible spell which is handy if you want to capture the enemy and negotiate with them)


Message can be good for quick PMing of other party members at many levels. Light is indeed overwhelmed by having a Everburning Torch or Ioun Torch but useful whenever you are in a 'DM takes your stuff' scenario.


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Snowblind wrote:


He said Daze Monster, not Daze.

Daze Monster is just like Daze, except it hits creatures(not just humanoids) that are up to 6 HD.

It's still better than Mass Daze, the 4th level spell variant of the cantrip that still only affects up to 4 HD.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Looking at this thread title, I was expecting to see stuff like "Summon Self". :)


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Carteeg_Struve wrote:
Looking at this thread title, I was expecting to see stuff like "Summon Self". :)

Locate Terrain


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Carteeg_Struve wrote:
Looking at this thread title, I was expecting to see stuff like "Summon Self". :)
Locate Terrain

"Halt Dead" :D


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Hold Portal is a shudderingly useless spell. There's even a joke in OotS about how useless it is. If it did more than merely add 5 to the opening DC...

Transmute Blood to Acid is an insultingly bad spell, aggravated by the fact that it's a 9th level spell. It allows SR, it deals acid damage (up to 12d6 damage at CL 24) which can be halved with a Fort save, and while an ongoing Staggered condition may be useful, it's also negated by the aforementioned Fort save. I could Time Stop or Wish instead of casting this abomination.

Liberty's Edge

Not a spell but a feat. Disable Dweomer.

Liberty's Edge

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Ravingdork wrote:
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Carteeg_Struve wrote:
Looking at this thread title, I was expecting to see stuff like "Summon Self". :)
Locate Terrain
"Halt Dead" :D

Power Word Contemplate


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Carteeg_Struve wrote:
Looking at this thread title, I was expecting to see stuff like "Summon Self". :)
Locate Terrain
"Halt Dead" :D

Quickfall

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