Is there any official developer commentary that they made Drow in Golarian 'Evil with a Capital E and an exclamation point on the end' to avoid Drizzt syndrome?
There is commentary from an "official developer" in the Ask James Jacobs thread, but that doesn't necessarily make it "official commentary".
In any case, even James' thoughts seem to have progressed over time.
What the setting developers have said applies mostly to NPCs anyway. They didn't want to spam the idea of a good drow -- in fact they considered that part of the appeal of playing a good drow is being unique.
Anything's possible. This setting is willing to allow for ascended devils, so even if drow are a transformed race of evil, redemption is possible.
Now, specifically calling that out in the description of any race would considerably lessen the gravity of such an ascension.
This is something left for GMs and their players to explore.
Hello again, tighra.
I agree with CraziFuzz that a half-drow could be a viable option for you. Half-elves can take the Drow-Blooded and Drow Magic alternate racial traits, and then the Half-Drow Paragon feat.
Could that work for your character, thematically and mechanically?
Hi Avoron,been a while,CraziFuzz and you have given me a probable answer to what I admit could be a problem for most GM's in allowing an "Evil" race being a PC (which admittedly makes more work for said GM)I hadn't seen the whole half-elf Drow blooded alternative before,definately food for thought.
There are probably a fair number of chaotic neutral drow in the lower eschelons of Drow society. People who aren't thoroughly depraved and vicious but just go along to get along. They don't tend to rise high in Drow society because they lack the bloodthirstiness to really achieve greatness at the expense of their fellow drow. So, all the leaders and movers and shakers in Drow society are evil, while the cannon fodder and castle guards may be neutral.
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Well, that's why it's reserved for PC's. They're the rare and unique ones.As a GM I prefer my players to be unique by "growing up" in the game world (thorugh level) and going from unknowns to powerful characters which are unique and interesting because of their action they have taken and their accomplishments, not because of their racial selection.
But perhaps that is just me.
One way is not necessarily correct, but I'm not a fan of non-core races. Especially ones that rub against the setting material so deeply.
If the GM is fine with the OPs request so be it, but I wouldn't allow it. Now, if there was a campaign setting which is a dungeon delve into the Underdark I would consider allowing a player to play a Drow (evil or otherwise) which joins the party. But that is much less of a stretch to me than a good drow on the surface world.
I already gave a perfectly valid reason why there's be a drow in the surface world, as I've seen the question come up in gaming forums many times - what happens when adventurers run into baby drow? Do they kill it, adopt it? A surface drow raised by non-drow (which is what the OP wants) is easily explained in this manner. In addition, there are plenty of places in Gaorian where drow are never heard of, and they wouldn't experience the kind of prejudice seen in areas where they are well known.
So that's all fine and good for your table. Other tables do not play the way you play. I know plenty of players who hate the core races and always play something else. The OP was asking if it was a legal game play, not whether we - as GMs and fellow players - would allow it at our tables.
There's more than one way to be unique, there's more than one way to shine. If someone wants to shine by a path you don't follow, we shouldn't discourage them. We should encourage them to play, thrive, and shine in their own way so they can enjoy the game as every bit as the rest of us do.
There is no true badwrongfun in gaming. Especially in a game where the most powerful tool you possess is your imagination.
If there's one thing we as gamers should never do - is to tell other gamers what they can and cannot do at their table because that's not how we play at our own. We should be encouraging others to use their imagination, their creativity, and whatever else they can muster to make the game a better experience for them and their friends.
I never said he couldn't do it bookrat. Merely expressing my opinion on the situation as a reason why it may not be allowed.
Slow ya roll man.
I never said he couldn't do it bookrat. Merely expressing my opinion on the situation as a reason why it may not be allowed.
Slow ya roll man.
Which I appreciate,most of these comments are helping me present my argument for a non-evil Drow PC.Please keep it up with the comments.
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by RAW: "...most Drow are Chaotic Evil." Which leaves enough room for the oddball player character Drow that isn't.
There are no hard set rules saying they MUST be evil. (that I have seen or heard about)
Sadly you don't get to add 2 free scimitars, or figurines to your character sheet.
:)
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I never said he couldn't do it bookrat. Merely expressing my opinion on the situation as a reason why it may not be allowed.
Slow ya roll man.
Fair enough, my friend. Fair enough.
I've posted this before in other similar threads, but I'll post it again (how else am I going to get my shameless plug in?): another plausible origin for a non-Evil Drow on the surface.
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I like the "Found and Saved by monks" line, and while I personally disagree with "Good" drow I could completely see a Neutral one. Someone who just went along with society for their own benefit.
Some crazy accident in the caves later as a result of a crazy wizard, a clan war, or what have you and the Drow finds itself suddenly in the upper levels of the Underdark or even on the surface.
Chased out of the tunnels and weak from battle, the Drow is found barely alive by a group of monks and brought back to good health.
From there, the Drow realizes that this new world isn't so bad and his chances of dying horribly to infighting just went down significantly. As just a common warrior among the houses, the Drow has now found a world in which he can rise to any position he wishes on merit and money. Lots and lots of money.
That is how I'd write the backstory, personally. I'd have bluff up to max on the character just so I could pretend to be good when the need arises, but I would still be out for myself even when adventuring. The goal is to get set for life, not to save the world.
Here's a backstory for you (which would be unknown to your character):
A group of adventurers went to the under dark and killed a bunch of drow. They found you as an infant, and being good people, they refused to slaughter babies. So they took you back to the surface and dropped you off at a monastery to be raised by monks.
As far as you know and the monks know, they found you on their doorsteps and raised you as their own. They themselves having never heard of drow, they didn't have any prejudice against you nor did they treat you bad for being a drow.
If you want to stick to the nature of the evil drow, you could say the the Evil nature of your race combined the the Good nurturing of the monks balanced out, and your character is Neutral in alignment.
I was thinking something along those lines to make the OP's origin story work. He also could have a drow raiding party on the surface world attack a settlement and the pregnant mother was captured by either the monks or a town. The drow mother could give birth in captivity and the monks/settlement took the baby to monks to be raised. That would create either an angry drow mother NPC to deal with at some point or you could say the mother tried to escape with the baby but was killed in the escape attempt and the child was raised by monks.
I understand veteran gamers eye rolls when it comes to people wanting to play drow but they are a popular race in fantasy. I also don't believe in the "all sentient races are completely evil" argument. Variety is good for life.
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The thing is, despite you wanting to play a "unique" character, the idea of the redeemed drow has been so overdone at the tables of various RPGs that it's practically a cliche. In-game you may be different, but nobody at your table will think you're anything but another Drizzt.
Hey, I feel your pain. I like pissed off, cynical, selfish, physically weak black mages who rise up despite an unfortunate childhood and overcome all, owing no man and achieving nigh onto godhood...but Raistlin just ruined that for me.
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Good Drow are absolutely possible. Hell, there's a canonical CN Drow in Second Darkness. Plus, Shensen, one of the characters in the NPC Guide, was born a Drow. She got reincarnated by a Druid, but that doesn't change alignment, and she's CG.
So...yeah, this can happen. It hasn't happened in Golarion much as of yet, but it can.
The thing is, despite you wanting to play a "unique" character, the idea of the redeemed drow has been so overdone at the tables of various RPGs that it's practically a cliche. In-game you may be different, but nobody at your table will think you're anything but another Drizzt.
Hey, I feel your pain. I like pissed off, cynical, selfish, physically weak black mages who rise up despite an unfortunate childhood and overcome all, owing no man and achieving nigh onto godhood...but Raistlin just ruined that for me.
But who says that a good Drow has to follow this cliche? The concept I linked above isn't even redeemed, but started out good (or at least was good pretty much as close to the start as a kid can be), and had a pretty good childhood despite some scary experiences, and while being somewhat skittish due to said experiences, she is not fairly described by any of the emotional terms you listed (and I don't even plan to have her be any type of mage, but some combination of divine and martial). And if other players at the table insist on thinking that she's some kind of Drizz't clone, she's going to be wondering Who's this Drizz't that my comrades keep mumbling about in their sleep? My comrades are weird, or maybe they had some traumatic experience in common. . . Too bad nobody seems to be able or willing to talk about it.
I didn't say they would take it in-game, but, however you want to look at it. I said the players, those people sitting at the table with you, will think "Another frickin' Drizzt clone" or "Sweet, I love Drizzt!", but most assuredly not "Hey, look, this drow is good. How original! I wish I thought of that before!" (At least not without it being sarcastic.)
Unless they've never read or heard of Forgotten Realms, which I suppose is technically possible for an entire group of RPG players. About as likely as a group of sports enthusiasts having never heard of Joe Montana, but still possible.
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I didn't say they would take it in-game, but, however you want to look at it. I said the players, those people sitting at the table with you, will think "Another frickin' Drizzt clone" or "Sweet, I love Drizzt!", but most assuredly not "Hey, look, this drow is good. How original! I wish I thought of that before!" (At least not without it being sarcastic.)
Unless they've never read or heard of Forgotten Realms, which I suppose is technically possible for an entire group of RPG players. About as likely as a group of sports enthusiasts having never heard of Joe Montana, but still possible.
This is, I guess, unfortunately for some, very true.
If it is too close to the cliche', it can actually ruin the immersion for some.
For me, it's anything Kender related. I will refuse to play in any game with Kender, or Kender-clones, be them PC, or NPC.
Same with bearded Dwarf women.
Ruins the fun for me.
If I am not having fun, I walk.
I would like to point out that there are likely FAR more people playing who HAVEN'T read any of the fiction than those that have.
I find the whole Drizzt situation very ludicrous. There are thousands of other cliches and poeple play those too.
Quite right.
The drunk dwarf with an axe, the graceful elven archer, and the brooding loner ranger all come to mind.
I seem to recall them having a movie as well, unlike Drizzt. Who's really the overexposed cliche?
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They found you as an infant, and being good people, they refused to slaughter babies.The important question here is: Did the paladin fell or what?
Wouldn't that depend on which alignment the infant Drow became after being raised by Monks?
let's face it, if he's lawful good, then Dang, he didn't just succeed He past most peoples expectations.
Although if he is Lawful Neutral, I'd say he just passed and gets a B+ on the assignment.
But if he is a Lawful Evil, well I'd say he only get's a D- and likely doesn't do well in that test of his Deity but still not horridly
I find the whole Drizzt situation very ludicrous. There are thousands of other cliches and poeple play those too.Quite right.
The drunk dwarf with an axe, the graceful elven archer, and the brooding loner ranger all come to mind.
I seem to recall them having a movie as well, unlike Drizzt. Who's really the overexposed cliche?
Another cliche existing does not invalidate the existence of the original. It just leaves more examples of things the rest of your players will roll their eyes at.
Nobody said you can't do that. But don't think you're not going to pull a groaner out of your companions when you do it. I just had a player tell me her character for an upcoming game is a noble's daughter who ran away because she was going to be forced into a political marriage and...geeze, I can't even type this without rolling my eyes, it's so cliche. I mean, it's the plot of like six Disney movies, I think. I'm not stopping her, though, but it doesn't make it any less cheesy.
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Is there any official developer commentary that they made Drow in Golarian 'Evil with a Capital E and an exclamation point on the end' to avoid Drizzt syndrome?
Because if that's true, I think it's the entirely wrong way to go around it. Wouldn't the best way to avoid a bunch of Drizzt clones be NOT making every Drow baby-eating evil? Have Drow capable of being evil, good, and neutral, just like humans. Say their society is a Social Darwinist Nightmare full of political infighting and skullduggery that makes the worst of moden electoral processes look like an episode of Barney and Friends, but the individual is just as capable of independent thought as any other. Then when somebody tries to play a Chaotic Good Drow angsting over trying to overcome his race's prejudices, have him meet a drow alchemist merchant who wonders why he's so damn moody.
Then again, I'm really not fond of Pathfinder's attempt to make the various 'evil' races irrevocably super-evil. But that's what homemade campaign worlds are for.
It was more to avoid Drizzt syndrome in one instance. There's a sidebar that talks about the rarity of non-evil drow in one of the Second Darkness AP books, but that's mainly to avoid Drizzt clones in Second Darkness itself. Second Darkness was Paizo's big reintroduction of the drow into Pathfinder, and having one of the PCs be a drow would spoil a lot of it, as a major part of its plot is that the PCs are some of the first non-elves to know ANYTHING about the drow, and even elven PCs will learn things about the drow that they might never have otherwise learned. Plus, Second Darkness showcases drow society and stuff so you understand what they're like You can't really have rebels against a society's norms until you've established just what the default societal norms are to rebel against. I believe that the official stance they have is "sure, you can have a non-evil drow PC, but keep in mind they'll be pretty much one of a kind, and playing one in Second Darkness kind of messes up the plot."
That said, any drow PC on Golarion that isn't evil, really, REALLY needs to avoid having had too much exposure to drow culture, both because being a decent person is kind of dangerous in that society, and because it establishes evil behavior as a norm, and breaking cultural norms to start adventuring can be very challenging. Plus, as it's been said, most surfacers have never even SEEN a drow, and it's only been in recent years that the Pathfinders published a Chronicle telling the world that they're real (the government in Kyonin unsuccessfully tried to bribe the Pathfinders into not printing the story). A drow PC is going to either have to spend much of their time travelling in disguise or get used to being mobbed by the curious and the frightened everywhere he goes.
The OP's idea of a monk is actually probably one of the better ways to handle a drow PC. Monasteries are isolated from society in general, and thus the character would be less inclined to evil to begin with.
Another cliche existing does not invalidate the existence of the original. It just leaves more examples of things the rest of your players will roll their eyes at.I find the whole Drizzt situation very ludicrous. There are thousands of other cliches and poeple play those too.Quite right.
The drunk dwarf with an axe, the graceful elven archer, and the brooding loner ranger all come to mind.
I seem to recall them having a movie as well, unlike Drizzt. Who's really the overexposed cliche?
The point being that people don't roll their eyes at some cliches. They see the ones I pointed out as "classic archetypes", but Drizzt as an overused concept. I daresay the ones I mentioned are far more overused. It's funny what people choose to have a problem with, and what they give a pass to.
I'm interested in playing a Drow Monk,but i'm not interested in playing an evil character,is Drow alignment set in stone or can I pick my alignment. This may be a dumb question,but i'm still new to PF so any help would be appreciated.Thanks.
You always get to pick your own alignment.
One thing, thought, that really annoys me about Pathfinder is that it's technically an evil action within the Pathfinder world to be bigoted towards someone based on their gender, sexual orientation, race, or gender identity but at the same time, the game world itself follows the Tolkien tradition (which Roddenberry followed in Star Trek) of these monolithic races where everyone is identical - the dwarves are all lawful good money-grubbers (Tolkien even admitted he modeled them after the racist portrayal of Jews so common in the 50s) whereas Elves are all enlightened, aloof chaotic good wizardry masters and the Orcs are these vile, stupid, super strong violent beasts who should be slaughtered as infants. Heck, you even have specific gods for specific races.
Then, of course, you have humans who inexplicably run the gamut of variance of personality, religion, etc.
{. . .}
Second Darkness was Paizo's big reintroduction of the drow into Pathfinder, and having one of the PCs be a drow would spoil a lot of it, as a major part of its plot is that the PCs are some of the first non-elves to know ANYTHING about the drow, and even elven PCs will learn things about the drow that they might never have otherwise learned.
Got that covered with the character concept I linked earlier -- despite being not a complete noob (mom and dad told her some stuff), she'll be getting a huge culture shock herself.
Plus, Second Darkness showcases drow society and stuff so you understand what they're like You can't really have rebels against a society's norms until you've established just what the default societal norms are to rebel against. I believe that the official stance they have is "sure, you can have a non-evil drow PC, but keep in mind they'll be pretty much one of a kind, and playing one in Second Darkness kind of messes up the plot."
Also got that covered -- she's not a rebel (mom and dad were the rebels, and their reason for rebellion was forbidden love -- the good stuff came later, after they were already on the surface). She's not totally ignorant, but doesn't know the details of what is going on in the Darklands (mom and dad left a generation ago, from the wrong geographic region of the Darklands to have the conspiracy details, and thought it better to give her the best education for the new environment anyway).
That said, any drow PC on Golarion that isn't evil, really, REALLY needs to avoid having had too much exposure to drow culture {. . .}
Got that covered too -- mom and dad represented the only Drow culture she has had actual exposure to (as opposed to hearing scary and depressing stories that mom and dad became increasingly reluctant to tell).
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I find the whole Drizzt situation very ludicrous. There are thousands of other cliches and poeple play those too.Quite right.
The drunk dwarf with an axe, the graceful elven archer, and the brooding loner ranger all come to mind.
I seem to recall them having a movie as well, unlike Drizzt. Who's really the overexposed cliche?
Your examples are not as specific as the Drizzt cliche, and are not exclusive to the RPG community.
The mass of clones I saw, were not just "good drow", but dual scimitar wielding, Rangers(or similar), who just happen to have a very similar backstory, attitude, goals, morals, and general look, as the original.
So, whilst your point is valid, your comparisons are that of more generalized cliche's, to one that is much more specific, and precise.
I find the whole Drizzt situation very ludicrous. There are thousands of other cliches and poeple play those too.Quite right.
The drunk dwarf with an axe, the graceful elven archer, and the brooding loner ranger all come to mind.
I seem to recall them having a movie as well, unlike Drizzt. Who's really the overexposed cliche?
Your examples are not as specific as the Drizzt cliche, and are not exclusive to the RPG community.
The mass of clones I saw, were not just "good drow", but dual scimitar wielding, Rangers(or similar), who just happen to have a very similar backstory, attitude, goals, morals, and general look, as the original.
So, whilst your point is valid, your comparisons are that of more generalized cliche's, to one that is much more specific, and precise.
That would be relevant if the OP were saying he wanted to make a dual scimitar wielding ranger that was a drow. Since the character idea under discussion is a drow monk, what is under fire is the general concept of a good drow.
So general comparisons for a general discussion.
I'm interested in playing a Drow Monk,but i'm not interested in playing an evil character,is Drow alignment set in stone or can I pick my alignment. This may be a dumb question,but i'm still new to PF so any help would be appreciated.Thanks.
In Pathfinder there are no truly set in stone alignment rules as the GM can change whatever he wants so long as it isn't PFS.
There could, in theory, be Lawful Good Red Dragons—they would obviously be extremely rare—Chaotic Evil Gold Dragons, Chaotic Good Devils and Lawful Evil Azatas.Basically, the drow tend to live in huge cities. Many of the Elves who know about them view them as aberrations that should be destroyed. However, short of playing Second Darkness, where the drow take center stage, there is only likely to be mass confusion as to what type of elf the character is. Remember, there are almost as many elves as there are colors, so to the common person a drow is an elf, a svirfneblin is a gnome and a duergar is a dwarf. The only people who will really know about key races are race aficionados, but even then the DC to realize it on the rarer races is likely at least 11 or 16. Even if the DC is lower, many people will just think it is folklore, and therefore ignore it.
I, for example, played a Neutral Good Aasimar Werewolf who is the bastard son of an Aasimar and a rapist werewolf Tiefling. Worked fine.
Just try to come up with a reason how he found his way into less evil hands. Perhaps a raid on a drow outpost saw a drow cleric dead and her just born infant being abducted by the paladins to raise as their own. There was just a post about killing infants, so hey, evidently everything is fine.
Really, any sort of dual-wielding drow is going to get a groan and an eyeroll.
My TN drow fighter wielding a scimitar and a rapier certainly got a few. Every time the name Drizz't comes up, I roll my eyes. Drizz't was nifty, but I much preferred Artemis Entreri (whose first name I stole for my first real character, a half-elf thief), and for the drow, Jarlaxle. B@*%+@%s, I say to them. All of my dual-wielding elves, whether they be wood, drow, high, sea or sky, wield Scimitar and Rapier. Why? Cause I think it looks freaking awesome in the hands of elves.
I can offer no other advice than to be prepared for players to groan. You've already got some good advice for your backstory. All I can say is try to avoid being dark, brooding, and possibly melodramatic.
Edit: Also, didn't I read somewhere that in golarion, drow who turn good lighten up into normal elves again?
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Overblown complaints about Drizzt clones far outnumber actual instances of real Drizzt clones. They're more obnoxious as well.
And it's been that way for over a decade.
If anyone can't see why a non-evil drow character can work and can work well, that says more about their lack of imagination than the quality of yours. Don't let other people dictate what you enjoy.
Besides, non-evil drow are canonically a thing in Golarion. And they aren't nigh-impossible instances in drow society. Hell, the biggest gentlemen's club in Zirnakaynin is run by a CN drow man, and that's like painting a bullseye on your back and framing it with neon and sparklers.
That monk-raised drow is absolutely fine, IMO.
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Edit: Also, didn't I read somewhere that in golarion, drow who turn good lighten up into normal elves again?
Nah, it's a one-way transformation. Honestly, it's a good thing too, otherwise the unfortunate skin tone implications that come with drow out of the box would be pushed through the roof.
Black-skinned good drow for life. :)
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Also keep in mind that there are plenty of evil elves who never transform. The noted example of one who did was one who had spent plenty of time fighting drow, so she may have bee exposed to things other elves have not.Edit: Also, didn't I read somewhere that in golarion, drow who turn good lighten up into normal elves again?Nah, it's a one-way transformation. Honestly, it's a good thing too, otherwise the unfortunate skin tone implications that come with drow out of the box would be pushed through the roof.
Black-skinned good drow for life. :)
Extra-delicious irony: The terrible evil that pushed that elf into "so evil she transformed" territory?
IIRC.
I can't say I'm bothered by people playing cliches, as other people have said cliches can be a lot of fun to play with.
My main source of frustration is that Drow culture is so extreme and consistent that players have very few plausible options for a non-evil Drow. Variety, contrasts and extremes make for really interesting worlds so in that vein I'm happy with the characterization of the Drow. Still, it would be nice to see some more diversity in Drow culture simply so that non-evil Drow wouldn't have to be so damned exceptional.
And it might be petty but I kind of hate that, LazarX. The Pathfinder Society as it's portrayed it exceptionally complex and while it is supposed to be a neutral organization the composition of the organization shows incredible scope. Obviously not every facet of Golarion can be treated with the same amount of detail but the idea of intelligent humanoid races that universally default to evil is distasteful in my eyes.
Devils, demons, monstrous humanoids may be necessary to make functional villainous organizations but races like the Drow are a step too far in my opinion. Redeemable but so evil that it rarely happens.
@blackbloodtroll
I have to ask, what was the guy's agenda when he was trying to convince you that tigers would normally eat grass?
@OP
Whether a drow would be rocognized as drow in Golarion is dependant on many things, some of them are:
1) Did Second Darkness happened?
1b) What did the heroes who stopped second darkness did with the knowledge they gained after they saved the world?
2) Did pathfinder chronicle #44 (the one written by Koriah Azmeren and talked about the drows) get published?
2b) Did the winter council's attempt to bribe the pathfinder society to supress it succeeded?
2c) Do the people view it as a work of fiction or not?
If from the above you get to a state of Golarion where the vast majority of people doesn't know what drow are then you are ok, most would take you for an elf who is a little weird(er), maybe even confuse with a Mwangi elf.
Now whether you would be hunted because you are drow would also be dependant on the above and on other things like:
1) Does the winter council still has power in Kyonin?
2) How many lantern bearers are there?
2b) Their attitude is still shoot first ask questions later?
3) Where in Golarion would you adventure?
As you can see there are a lot of things that need answering and the matter is a complicated one, that's why it's imperative that you talk with your GM so that he can tell you if a drow PC can work or not.
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Sorry, but the 'players' at the table groaning because someone plays a traditional character are the problem - not the character choice.
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Any character the player wants to play is the right character for that player - no matter how elitist you are or how much fiction you've read.