Tiefling Claw Ninja


Advice

1 to 50 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So I'm thinking of building a Ninja. I didn't really like most of the weapon choices, and after watching an odd episode or two of Power Rangers I started looking into unarmed builds. Saw the monk/ninja build with the feat to keep up unarmed damage, but in the end I came to a tiefling with the Maw or Claw sub ability. Combine that with the prehensile tail sub and I've got a suitably monstrous character.

The advice I need revolves around using those claws. Never really played a character that relies on natural weapons as their main attack routine.

Can I use the claws with iterative attacks from high BAB? How do two claws interact with TWF?

Additionaly, I know I can enhance base claw damage with Improved Natural Weapons monstrous feat, but I assume that just like a monk the only way I could enchant my claws is with the amulet of mighty fists?

Basically I'm grooving on the idea of the shadowy demon ninja that kills with his bare claws, I'm just not 100% up on what all would be required for a good mauling.


Quote:
Can I use the claws with iterative attacks from high BAB?

Yes.

Quote:
How do two claws interact with TWF?

Exactly how light weapons do.

Quote:
Additionaly, I know I can enhance base claw damage with Improved Natural Weapons monstrous feat, but I assume that just like a monk the only way I could enchant my claws is with the amulet of mighty fists?

Yes.

Quote:
Basically I'm grooving on the idea of the shadowy demon ninja that kills with his bare claws, I'm just not 100% up on what all would be required for a good mauling.

You're on the right track. Multiple hits with sneak attack damage can quickly rack up damage. Basically the build is the same as unarmed, but in this case you have some wicked claws instead. Keep an eye out for things that improve natural weapons, such as magic fang.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Actually, Carl, I believe you have been somewhat misinformed.

Natural attacks are completely separate from two-weapon fighting. You make them all at your full base attack bonus, and you don't get any extra for having a higher base attack bonus.

You can, if you wish, combine natural weapons and two-weapon fighting in one full attack. In that case, you use two-weapon fighting as normal, and you get all of your natural attacks as extra attacks, but they count as secondary attacks in this circumstance, so they get a -5 penalty on attack rolls and only add half of your strength do damage. I would not recommend that option.

With that in mind, most natural weapon characters, especially ones that have static damage bonuses like sneak attack, want to focus on two things:

1. Getting more natural attacks. Bites are the most common to supplement claws, but there are also ways to get anything from gores to talons. This is pretty much the only way to increase the number of attacks you have in a round, because you get one attack with each weapon.

2. Getting a way to make a full attack and move in the same turn. The most common way is probably getting the pounce ability, but other options exist, such as Mounted Skirmisher and Pummeling Charge.

You are correct, enhancing your natural weapons requires an amulet of mighty fists, but you have the advantage that you only need one to boost all of your weapons.


Ah right, I forgot Pathfinder has changed the way they work. Sorry, I'm an oldschool guy.


With the claws, should I be looking at it as having 2 built in daggers, that interact the same way (aka don't even think of using both without TWF), or am I looking at them like a monster where I get both claws at full BAB and then iterative attacks?


Consider taking Feral Combat Training.


Okay, scratch that last one. Posts while I was typing on my phone here.

So I'm wanting to go full Ninja, so getting other types of natural attacks isn't really an option. Don't really want it to be one either, I like sticking to just claws.

So as a sneak attacker, I want as many attacks as possible, which currently is looking like it will be limited to only 2 with the claws. Can always get more with shuriken, but again, I like the claws.

So what does one have to do in order to get more claw attacks as I level so that they remain viable attacks?


There are only two, very limited ways to get more than two claw attacks:

1. Get haste cast on you, or use a potion/wand of it, or get boots of speed. A speed amulet of mighty fists would technically work, but it would be much too expensive.

2. Take two levels in Vivisectionist Alchemist. Take Feral Mutagen, then use Extra Discovery to get two Vestigial Arms. The Vestigial Arm rules are complicated, but what you need to know is that you can swap out the unarmed strikes that you aren't using because of the penalties, and in exchange you can make two more claw attacks with your claws from Feral Mutagen.


Basically the claw attacks will be really good at low levels because you get two attacks with no TWF penalties, but at higher levels they fall off since you won't get any extra attacks.

You could simply start with claws and switch over to weapons at higher levels.


So could I mix and match?

As in, use the claws as natural weapons at low levels or when I really just wanted the max BAB, and then treat them as unarmed attacks with TWF and normal BAB iterative attacks?

I'm finding it slightly hard to swallow that a human unarmed Ninja could get full attack progression with fists, but the monstrous character with enhanced attacks cant.


Edymnion wrote:
Can I use the claws with iterative attacks from high BAB? How do two claws interact with TWF?

Nope. Avoron is right about that.

Edymnion wrote:
Additionaly, I know I can enhance base claw damage with Improved Natural Weapons monstrous feat, but I assume that just like a monk the only way I could enchant my claws is with the amulet of mighty fists?

You can wear gauntlets and enchant them. The description of Gauntlets in Ultimate Equipment, "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." makes it pretty clear that gauntlets do your unarmed strike damage. The 1d3 on the table is only there because that is what unarmed strikes normally do from medium sized creatures. Anyway, the specific description of gauntlets is that they are unarmed strikes.

CampinCarl9127's suggestion of taking Feral Combat Training is a good suggestion. Your Claws will do you Monk Unarmed Strike Damage instead of your Natural Weapon Damage.

Improved Natural Attack will make those claws do damage as if they were 1 size bigger. There are a lot of people, Avoron among them, who think that INA and FCT will not stack, but I have never seen rules-based evidence that they will not. I can offer you plenty of rules-based evidence that they will.

Avoron wrote:
You can, if you wish, combine natural weapons and two-weapon fighting in one full attack. In that case, you use two-weapon fighting as normal, and you get all of your natural attacks as extra attacks, but they count as secondary attacks in this circumstance, so they get a -5 penalty on attack rolls and only add half of your strength do damage. I would not recommend that option.

That's generally true, but remember the OP is thinking in terms of a character with both Claw Attacks and Monk Unarmed Strikes. And while Monk Unarmed Strikes would be used in the manufactured weapon part of the round, Monk Unarmed Strikes count as natural weapons, so they wouldn't impose the -5 penalty on the Claws that a pair of daggers would.

Avoron wrote:
1. Getting more natural attacks. Bites are the most common to supplement claws, but there are also ways to get anything from gores to talons. This is pretty much the only way to increase the number of attacks you have in a round, because you get one attack with each weapon.

I like this suggestion a lot.

Since you are getting Sneak Attack, I recommend you get some way of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage, like Dirty Tricks.

I am in love with the Snake Fang Feat, an Attack of Opportunity hair trigger. You get an unarmed AoO whenever someone attacks you and misses. If your Claws have Feral Combat Training, you can use your claws for those AoO's.

I also really love getting Grab and Constrict. I like getting them via 2 levels in White Haired Witch, which then serves as a prerequisite for the Final Embrace Feat, giving Grab and Constrict to your Hair, Your Claws, and your Unarmed Strikes. The Constrict damage will be equal to your primary natural attack damage. This will turn all your other natural attacks into avenues for delivering your primary natural weapon damage multiple times. Also, wear Armor Spikes, and you will do Armor Spike Damage, too. This would take your build in a radical direction you probably didn't consider, so I wouldn't be surprised if you were uncomfortable with it.

As a Tiefling, you can get the Nightmare Fist Feat for +2 Damage and the Moonlight Stalker Feat for +2 attack and damage.


I'm pretty sure that a monk's unarmed strike would still make your natural attacks secondary. It counts as a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that enhance natural weapons, but it still follows all of the normal rules for manufactured weapons when used in combat.


Not actually planning on taking any monk levels in this one, for one main reason.

Monastic Legacy (the one that lets you count any other class as 1/2 monk levels for unarmed damage) is, to be rather blunt, fairly useless for a Ninja. All it does is increase your unarmed attack damage, but the base damage of my attacks is pretty much unimportant as the vast bulk of my damage will be coming from SA.

Flurry of Stars at 1 damage each would still be far better than any monk unarmed base damage simply because I'd be looking at 5 attacks worth of SA damage as opposed to 3 monk unarmed strikes.

Now, if I could rig it so I could progress through Ninja, and keep a Monk Flurry of Blows with my claws, that would be incredibly nice, but I don't think thats going to happen.

Problem I see with Snake Fang is that while those counter attacks are nice, they're counter attacks. They only work in response to an attack, which means it would be very difficult to actually get SA damage on them. You'd need a flanking buddy to make it happen the majority of the time. I could grab Hunter's Surprise and once a day be able to seriously mess something up in counter sneak attacks, but thats far too limited IMO.

Honestly, if I can't find a way to get full attacks using the claws that doesn't completely handicap me, I'm probably going to dump the entire concept. Whole thing revolves around the claws, and simply put it sounds like that route is so mechanically inferior to simply dual wielding wakizashi that its not even worth considering.

I hate it when I get a character concept that the rules flat out say can't work, for completely arbitrary reasons.

Scarab Sages

If you go Tengu (or lizardfolk) instead of Tiefling, you can have Claw/Claw/Bite and have all three at your primary BAB. You can add a gore as well with the helm of the mammoth lords.

You could do the same thing as a Tiefling by taking the bite attack, and then being a Slayer instead of a Ninja and using the Natural Weapon style to get Aspect of the Beast for claws. You'll have less sneak attack, but you'll do more damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Natural weapons are excellent, even more so for sneak attack. It's just that, to get more attacks, you have to get more natural weapons. More claws don't really work, except for the methods I outlined earlier, because you can't really use multiple claws on the same arm. There are lots of ways to get more natural weapons. Are there any type that you think would fit thematically?

But, if not, do not despair! There is still hope! See if your GM will allow you to use Claw Blades. They're originally meant for Catfolk, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow a tiefling to use them. If you have claw blades, then you use the normal weapon rules instead of the natural weapon rules. It is, actually, just like having two "built in daggers." I think that might be more like what you want.

Hope that helps.


Claw Blades do indeed look like the best option here. Especially since apparently the only way to make natural attacks even remotely viable is to turn into a freak that would make even a thri-kreen go "what is wrong with you?".

I just find it very odd that mechanically a human could punch with each fist, and then kick somebody in the gut, but a tiefling can't swipe with each claw and kick someone in the same manner.

Scarab Sages

Edymnion wrote:


I just find it very odd that mechanically a human could punch with each fist, and then kick somebody in the gut, but a tiefling can't swipe with each claw and kick someone in the same manner.

They can, but they would take penalties for doing so, just like the human would.

To get three unarmed attacks as a human, you would need to have a high enough BAB to have an iterative attack, and use two weapon fighting. Level 6 Fighter using TWF or a Monk using Flurry. With a normal BAB of 6 you would be at +4/+4/-1 for three unarmed strikes (that can be any combination of unarmed strikes, it doesn't have to be punches and kicks._

The natural weapon attacker at 6 BAB would have the option of Claw/Claw at +6/+6. Or they could mix in unarmed strikes using normal iterative attacks and treat the claws as secondary for Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw +6/+1/+1/+1. They could then take two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes to add another attack for +4/+4/-1/-1/-1

The natural weapon user gets more attacks, but they are less accurate because you are mixing unarmed and natural weapon attacks.


Now see, I don't mind that.

I wasn't looking for a way to keep the claws at full power BAB-wise, I was looking for a way to get a full range of attacks while keeping the claws in the mix.

So what you're saying is that I could indeed take a normal full attack with (Improved) Unarmed Strikes, and then get both claws on top of that for -5 each?

So lets say straight lvl 20 Ninja, BAB gives 3 attacks at +15/+10/+5. Assuming those are improved unarmed strikes (lets use U for denoting Unarmed, and C for Claws), I could then use both claws as secondary attacks on top of that? So what would I be looking at, something like this?

+15U/+10U/+5U/+10C/+10C?

Again, I don't mind the claws taking a back seat at high levels, as long as I get to keep both of them in the rotation. Thats what I meant earlier by "mix and match them with unarmed strikes".

Headbutts and roundhouse kicks with claw finishers is perfectly acceptable.


Yeah, it works like that. In fact, you can get the feat Multiattack to lessen the penalty for your claw attacks to -2, but that requires 3 natural attacks.

You can even combine this with two-weapon fighting if you really want to.

Also, be warned that your claws only add 1/2 of your strength bonus to damage when used in this manner. But that shouldn't effect you that much if you're getting your damage from sneak attack.


Yeah, half strength on the claws is meaningless for this, its going to be a finesse build anyway. Things are definitely looking up for this.

Would the penalties for TWF apply to the claw attacks as well, or would they apply to only the unarmed attacks?

I have to admit, the idea of 8 full sneak attacks in a single round has me drooling a bit over here. Especially on a character that can turn invisible essentially at will.

Scarab Sages

The TWF penalties do apply to the claw attacks as well.


Remember, though, turning invisible only gets you sneak attack on your first attack.

If you want sneak attack on all your attacks during a full attack, you'll pretty much have to be flanking. Or be attacking in the first round of combat against someone who hasn't gone yet.

Scarab Sages

Avoron wrote:

Remember, though, turning invisible only gets you sneak attack on your first attack.

Unless it's Improved Invisibility, which ninjas also get.


Imbicatus wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Remember, though, turning invisible only gets you sneak attack on your first attack.

Unless it's Improved Invisibility, which ninjas also get.

Yup, but even without that the full attacks would be pretty easy to get via surprise round.

The invisibility lasts 1 round per level, which is plenty of time to sneak up on the target (using regular stealth to make sure they don't hear you) and make a full attack during the surprise round. Then with a high dex build and likely Improved Init as well, odds are you will go first again.

Assuming everything hits with them being flatfooted, you're looking at +160d6 in sneak attack damage alone before they can react. Combine that with Pressure Points, and you're looking at 16 points of damage to either Dex or Str on top of that (which makes getting all those hits easier, since every 2 attacks will drop their AC by 1 if you go with dex damage).


Avoron wrote:
I'm pretty sure that a monk's unarmed strike would still make your natural attacks secondary. It counts as a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that enhance natural weapons, but it still follows all of the normal rules for manufactured weapons when used in combat.

This argument will have to wait for another time and another place, Avoron, as will our other one, since neither are to the point for the OP's build.


Edymnion wrote:
Problem I see with Snake Fang is that while those counter attacks are nice, they're counter attacks. They only work in response to an attack, which means it would be very difficult to actually get SA damage on them. You'd need a flanking buddy to make it happen the majority of the time.

That's a problem. I have a solution.

My favorite way to lock in the Sneak Attack is to use Dirty Tricks. Take Quick and Greater dirty tricks, and as an attack action, you can make your opponents Blind: no more Dex Mods to AC, and you can lay on with your Sneak Attacks like Jack the Ripper.


Edymnion wrote:

Flurry of Stars at 1 damage each would still be far better than any monk unarmed base damage simply because I'd be looking at 5 attacks worth of SA damage as opposed to 3 monk unarmed strikes.

Now, if I could rig it so I could progress through Ninja, and keep a Monk Flurry of Blows with my claws, that would be incredibly nice, but I don't think thats going to happen.

Well, there is a Teamwork Feat, Precise Strike, that adds 1d6 to your Sneak Attack, but Teamwork Feats carry another problem.

There are the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats. These would be ways of increasing your SA Damage while taking levels in Monk. These feats would require you to do nonlethal Damage, possible with your unarmed strikes. Sap Adept makes your SA do +1damage/die. Sap Master gives you double the SA dice. The other problem with Sap Master is that it only works when your opponent is Flat-Footed: other ways of denying Dex bonuses will not do. To lock in Sap Master, you'd have to take something like Shatter Defenses, which requires Dazzling Display, which requires Weapon Focus.


Edymnion wrote:
Monastic Legacy (the one that lets you count any other class as 1/2 monk levels for unarmed damage) is, to be rather blunt, fairly useless for a Ninja. All it does is increase your unarmed attack damage, but the base damage of my attacks is pretty much unimportant as the vast bulk of my damage will be coming from SA.

There is an alternative reason for a 3 level dip into Monk. Drunken Master. You can't do both Drunken Master and take Monasitic Legacy, but if you don't want Monastic Legacy, anyway, then take a look at Drunken Master. Drunken Masters can gain Ki Points just by taking more drinks. I don't know what you will be using Ki for--as a Ninja, I envision lots of Vanishing--but you probably would use Ki for something.


Edymnion wrote:
So what you're saying is that I could indeed take a normal full attack with (Improved) Unarmed Strikes, and then get both claws on top of that for -5 each?

Ooh, Avoron, maybe we get to have this argument after all!

With even 1 level in Monk, you won't even take the -5. Monk Unarmed Strikes are special. Monks have a Class Ability,

Monk Unarmed Strike Class Ability Description in the Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

This means you may treat your MUS as natural weapons, which doesn't give you any extra attacks, but it does mean you are NOT combining Natural and Manufactured Weapons in the same attack routine. You are 100% Natural, so your Claws don't get the -5.

It's worth checking with your DM, anyway.


Imbicatus wrote:
The TWF penalties do apply to the claw attacks as well.

Are you certain? I was just reviewing the description of 2 weapon fighting and Natural attacks under Universal Monster Rules. Fighting with 2 weapons seems to only apply penalties to the primary and secondary weapons. And the natural attacks rules say,

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

This is just the d20pfsrd, so it's not official. Perhaps you can quote the official rules to set me straight?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Monk Unarmed Strike Class Ability Description in the Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

This means you may treat your MUS as natural weapons, which doesn't give you any extra attacks, but it does mean you are NOT combining Natural and Manufactured Weapons in the same attack routine. You are 100% Natural, so your Claws don't get the -5.

It's worth checking with your DM, anyway.

Yeah, my DM Sense is tingling there. Danger Will Robinson, danger!

As a DM, I would definitely go with a strict reading there. The monk's strike counts as either manufactured or natural for spells and effects that enhance or improve them.

Which to me means you could use a spell like Magic Weapon or Magic Fang on a monk's fists, as that is a spell/effect that enhances manufactured or natural weapons (respectively).

It is neither a spell nor an effect to say they don't get a standard penalty.

I would rule very specifically there that it only refers to things that say "can only be placed on/used with a manufactured/natural weapon". It doesn't give a blanket redefinition of the the entire attack.


The rules for how you combine natural and manufactured weapons are not "spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Also, where are you getting the idea that you may decide to treat your unarmed strikes as natural weapons? Even if it did fall under the "spells and effects that enhance or improve" category, which it doesn't, you would be forced to treat your unarmed strikes as both manufactured and natural weapons. That doesn't even make sense in that context, but the bottom line is that you're definitely using manufactured weapons in your full attack.

Edit: Yeah, it seems like Edymnion has the right idea.

Scarab Sages

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The TWF penalties do apply to the claw attacks as well.

Are you certain? I was just reviewing the description of 2 weapon fighting and Natural attacks under Universal Monster Rules. Fighting with 2 weapons seems to only apply penalties to the primary and secondary weapons. And the natural attacks rules say,

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

This is just the d20pfsrd, so it's not official. Perhaps you can quote the official rules to set me straight?

I just re-read from the Paizo PRD, and you're right. The combat chapter's section on two weapon fighting only specifies attack or attacks with the primary hand suffer a penalty, and it doesn't mention natural attacks.

The natural attacks rules in this game are a hot mess, and this is another interaction where what should make sense doesn't.

RAW, you only get the penalty on iterative attacks, not natural attacks. But check with your GM.


Edymnion wrote:

Yeah, my DM Sense is tingling there. Danger Will Robinson, danger!

As a DM, I would definitely go with a strict reading there. The monk's strike counts as either manufactured or natural for spells and effects that enhance or improve them.

I understand, but hear me out. My reading here is also strict.

The rule doesn't say "spells and effects that improve them." It says, "spells and effects that enhance and improve manufactured and natural weapons." So the Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a Natural Weapon for the effect of improving the Claw Attack natural weapon. In this case the effect is relieving the Claws of the -5 penalty.

That self-reflexive language, "that... improve them" just isn't there, anymore. The self-reflexive nature of the Class Ability disappeared when the class description was transferred from 3.5 Player's Handbook to the Core Rulebook.

Edymnion wrote:
It is neither a spell nor an effect to say they don't get a standard penalty.

It's not a spell, but it is an effect. Remember "effect" is not exactly a game term with a specific in-game meaning. It is an English Language word that can mean any of a lot of things.

Edymnion wrote:
"can only be placed on/used with a manufactured/natural weapon".

My interpretation, which I realize is original, does fit your "used with" criterion.

Edymnion wrote:
It doesn't give a blanket redefinition of the the entire attack.

I agree with you. I'm not saying that. The unarmed strikes still happen during the regular, iterative portion of the full attack. I'm not saying anything about changing the action economy. I'm not talking about changing the number of attacks, here. A look at the Monk Table is clear about the general mechanics of unarmed strikes.

Avoron wrote:
The rules for how you combine natural and manufactured weapons are not "spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So let's look at the definition of effect.

https://www.google.com/#q=definition+of+effect wrote:
a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

Whether or not you impose a -5 is a change that is caused by combining a natural weapon with the other natural weapons instead of combining a manufactured weapon with other natural weapons. In this case, it is a Monk ability that lets you treat their unarmed strikes as either. Treating it as one thing has 1 effect; treating it as the other has another.

Avoron wrote:
Even if it did fall under the "spells and effects that enhance or improve" category, which it doesn't, you would be forced to treat your unarmed strikes as both manufactured and natural weapons.

I'm glad you raised this point. To begin with, it is only "for the purposes of... effects that... improve manufactured and natural weapons" that "a monk unarmed strike counts as both a manufactured and a natural weapon."

But remember that this ability is most traditionally used to allow Monks to benefit from both the spells Magic Fang and Magic Weapon. Magic Fang works on natural weapons but not on manufactured weapons nor nonmonk (or Brawler) unarmed strikes. Magic Weapon works on manufactured but not on natural weapons nor on nonmonk unarmed strikes. So while this is also a clever interpretation of the wording of the class ability, it is clearly false in light of spell descriptions of Magic Fang and Magic Weapon.

Avoron wrote:
the bottom line is that you're definitely using manufactured weapons in your full attack.

Oh, no. You can't cast Magic Weapon on nonmonk or nonBrawler unarmed strikes. Those 2 classes have a special to have their unarmed strikes count as either manufactured or natural. Normally, an unarmed strike is neither one.

Grand Lodge

Tiefling Natural Attack Ninja Build

Tiefling Variants suggested: Rakshasa spawn, Demon Spawn

Stat array before racials on a 20 point buy:

Strength 16
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 13

Recommended gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists, Ring of Rat Fangs (grants bite attack)

At level 5, as a full-attack action you would be able to make a full attack action with Bite/Claw/Claw with a total attack bonus of +7/+7/+7 for 1d4+3 damage each. Taking Improved natural weapon for claws would make it 1d4+3/1d6+3/1d6+3.

Then you can add sneak attack to each of those attacks as well if you have the proper position.

With natural attacks you do not gain iterative attacks from a high BAB. However, as a full attack action you can attack with all your natural attacks at full BAB, unless they are secondary natural attacks, in which case those attacks are made at a -5 penalty.

If as a part of your full attack you use a manufactured weapon, then all natural attacks are made at a -5 penalty.


See, I was thinking more of a Stat spread like this:

Tiefling, default heritage, 20 point buy, lvl 1:

Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Go straight for weapon Finnesse since Pathfinder doesn't restrict it to only one weapon.

Grand Lodge

In that case you'll want a Rakshasa Spawn, and grab an Agile +1 Amulet of the Mighty Fist as soon as you possibly can.

Your final stats will be

STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 16

You'll have Ki points for days, and once you get that amulet, +4 damage on every attack. Beware of damage reduction though.


When you can, maybe save up for a Mammoth Helm and a Tentacle Cloak. Those are like double the cost of the Ring of Rat Fangs, so those are for further down the line. A 1 level dip into white haired witch gives you a Hair attack.


I try not to take full on sub-races whenever possible. I hated what I called "elf-itis" back in the olden days where there was an elf for every single stat distribution you could ever want while everybody else had fixed stats.

Subbing some racial abilities I'm fine with, especially on a race that by it's very nature is a mishmash where no two are exactly alike to start with, but full on subraces with different stat distributions, no thanks.

At that point, far as I'm concerned, you should just say "+2 to whatever you want, -2 to whatever you want" in the base race and call it a day.

Sovereign Court

You might consider going with a tengu instead. It's stats aren't quite as good for a ninja as a tiefling sub-race, but it's at least as good as the base tiefling. (Though you shouldn't dump wisdom anyway or your will save will suck.) Plus it lets you get three natural attacks. 50% more attacks is pretty huge, especially with sneak attack.

Something along the lines of - (after racial)

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 14

And then you'd get two claws & a bite attack. (And with nat weapons - the extra attack comes with no penalties.) Though once you get an agile amulet - you could potentially have a dumped strength to boost your int/wis up to 12/14 respectively.


Yeah, not really interested in changing race, adding any more natural attacks (well, I did take prehensile tail, so maybe a tail slam could fit the bill, otherwise I can just describe one of my unarmed strikes as being a tail slam).

I think I have a pretty good grasp on how the claws interact with a normal build now and how I should be using them. Stick with straight claw attacks at the low levels, switch to using Improved Unarmed Strikes with the claws as secondary natural attacks at the early mid-levels, then start going up the TWF tree in the mid to late middle levels when I've got the BAB and the magical enhancements to compensate for the hit loss.

How about Traits? Currently I'm looking at these as frontrunners (in roughly the order of likelyhood of being taken):

Outlander (Exile)/Reactionary - +2 Init boost. Pretty self explanatory. A high init means turning one surprise round of SA into two rounds of SA before they can react.

Adaptable Flatterer - +1 Bluff check, and +1 on attack rolls against anyone denied their dex bonus, aka on all non-flanking sneak attacks. Would have to take via Adopted.

Armor Expert - AC boost by letting me take heavier armors thanks to the -1 ACP. Means studded leather over leather at low levels, and a mithral breastplate over a mithril shirt later on. Front line melee combatant means eeking out a couple more points of AC could be the line between victory and getting split in two by an axe.

Shadowchild - Ignore the 20% miss chance for attacking a target in dim light. Debate-ably, this would also allow for sneak attacks in dim lighting as well, since the main reason for not getting them is that miss chance. And lets face it, lot of sneaking around gets done in the dark. On the other hand, the whole dim lighting thing preventing SA is likely the most overlooked rule.

---

I'm currently leaning towards Outsider (Exile) and Adaptable Flatterer, both because they have the greatest combat benefits, but also because they mesh very well with the concept I already have. Especially since the Fetchlings (whom I would have to take Adopted with in order to get AF) are already prone to being Ninjas and Rogues to start with, and being a Tiefling there would be no end of people wanting to run me off/take a shot at me to qualify for Outsider (Exile).

Sovereign Court

I really disagree with you on switching from nat weapon to unarmed attacked. Natural attacks are really an all or nothing sort of thing. With mid BAB and TWF you won't hit much with the claws as secondary attacks. But - to each their own. *shrug*

And yes - basically every light armor character ever should take Armor Expert to grab that mithril breastplate. (Though even without it you can get mithril kikko armor for +5 - still better than a mithril chain shirt.)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I really disagree with you on switching from nat weapon to unarmed attacked. Natural attacks are really an all or nothing sort of thing. With mid BAB and TWF you won't hit much with the claws as secondary attacks.

The claws are still going to be at BAB -5, which puts them at the same base bonus as my second attack. And since we established that by the RAW TWF penalties don't apply to natural attacks being used as secondary attacks, those claws are actually going to be at only -3 from my primary attack when TWF'ing.

But lets look at some math. Luckily, this awesome person has already done up a hit chance table based on attack bonus and average AC by CR:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pdb5?Table-Average-CR-AC-vs-Attack-Bonus

Ninja gets it's first iterative attack at 8th level. Average AC for a CR 8 encounter is 21. Average character wealth for an 8th level character is 33k gold.

Starting with that 16 in Dex, two level up ability boosts puts us at 18 Dex. We'll be stingy and say the character only has a +2 Dex item putting him at 20 Dex, for +5 to hit with his weapon finesse.

For just the claws, that would put him at +11/+11. Toss in a Weapon Focus (Claws) and it becomes +12/+12. According to the table, thats a 60% chance to hit with each attack.

At lvl 8, we're looking at +4d6 sneak attack damage, and 1d4 claw damage per attack. Thats an average of 4*3.5 + 2.5 = 16.5 damage per claw. Multiply that by 0.6 to get the average of only hitting 60% of the time, and we get 9.9 damage per claw, or a total of 19.8 damage per round.

Now, lets switch that up to using unarmed strikes at the same level and the claws as secondary attacks. Since we'll eventually get more unarmed iterative attacks than claws, we'll move the weapon focus over to unarmed strikes. So we've now got an attack routine of +12/+7/+6/+6. Luckily the claw and the unarmed strike do the same damage, and the same amount of sneak attack damage, so we can re-use the above 16.5 damage per attack. And according to our table a +7 has a 35% chance of hitting, and a +6 has a 30% chance of hitting, so:

16.5*.6= 9.9
16.5*.35= 5.775
16.5*.3 = 4.95*2 = 9.9
9.9+9.9+5.775 = 25.575 damage per round

Now we can see here that without the TWF at lvl 8, the one unarmed strike and the two -5 claws together do the same damage as the two full powered claws do, but we're also getting that iterative unarmed strike in as well. Our average damage per round has increased by just about 30%.

Lets look at those numbers with TWF added in.

We now have +10/+5/+5/+6/+6, or 50%/25%/25%/30%/30%.
Thats 8.25+4.125+4.125+4.95+4.95 = 26.4 damage per round.

So at level 8, its not really worth using TWF yet, as the gains are fairly minimal, but they are still gains. The gains for dropping the claws down to secondary attacks are substantial though.

Plus, this is all something that can be done butt naked. There is no gear to pay for for another natural attack, no loss to SA progression and ninja tricks to dip into another class, etc.

And the numbers just scale up as soon as we throw in an amulet of mighty fists and the lower than average AC due to being flatfooted (or the attack bonuses from flanking). Namely 0.825 damage per attack per round. So for every 1 point of AC lower, or 1 point of attack higher than listed, two claws are going to increase in damage by 1.65 per round. The TWF unarmed strike/claw combo is going to increase by 4.125 damage per round. Even if they didn't, going straight up Ninja without the dipping with Pressure Points means those additional attacks do ability damage as well, which would help things out even more.

So no, I don't see it as all or nothing. Adding in more natural attacks would of course make the numbers even better, but mixing in normal attacks and taking all of the natural at -5 is always going to be a better bet than just having the natural attacks. Namely because its a lot easier to get the iterative attacks than it is more naturals.


That's nice and all, but compare that to a level 8 human fighter (which is far from an optimal class) with 20 strength making a standard Spirited Charge/Power Attack with a masterwork lance. That fighter will have about a 90% chance to hit for about 3d8+54 damage.

I'm all for making interesting and meaningful characters, but there are ways to avoid suffering mechanically in order to that.

That said, feel free to ignore everything I'm saying. You seem to have a really nice character concept going, and that's more important than all the mechanics in the game.


Avoron wrote:

That's nice and all, but compare that to a level 8 human fighter (which is far from an optimal class) with 20 strength making a standard Spirited Charge/Power Attack with a masterwork lance. That fighter will have about a 90% chance to hit for about 3d8+54 damage.

I'm all for making interesting and meaningful characters, but there are ways to avoid suffering mechanically in order to that.

That said, feel free to ignore everything I'm saying. You seem to have a really nice character concept going, and that's more important than all the mechanics in the game.

So? You're comparing apples to oranges.

Spirited Charge/Power Attack takes 4 feats, and is only valid when you're on a charging horse. That is a very feat intensive setup with an incredibly limited range of use. I mean, honestly, how many times have you been in a game where you could jump on a horse and charge in over level open ground in order to get that perfect hit?

I mean, if we're going to talk about absolutely perfect situations, the claw dual wield above would be doing 5d4+20d6 damage a turn with everything hitting, for an AVERAGE of 82.5 damage in one round. With only 1 feat and butt naked. With another 5d6+5 damage if we toss in an Amulet of Mighty Fists with +1 Flaming on it.

Put your spirited charger in a dungeon, and he's worthless. Put the ninja in an open field, and its still going to just go invisible and get full damage.


What is Narrow frame?

What is Small size?

Sovereign Court

Edymnion wrote:
At lvl 8, we're looking at +4d6 sneak attack damage, and 1d4 claw damage per attack. Thats an average of 4*3.5 + 2.5 = 16.5 damage per claw. Multiply that by 0.6 to get the average of only hitting 60% of the time, and we get 9.9 damage per claw, or a total of 19.8 damage per round.

And using your formula a tengu would do 28 damage with that bite attack added in. (19.2 from claws since only d3, and 8.8 from the bite since no weapon focus.)

Your comparison with unarmed is missing a few points - skewing things in its favor.

1. You're ignoring that with an agile enchantment would give full dex damage to all nat weapon attacks, but with the unarmed thrown in only the main hand unarmed would get them.

2. You're ignoring that taking Improved Unarmed Strike & later TWF use up the ninja's very limited feat resources.

Though again - it's not terrible, especially against very low AC targets. (Which said formulas tend to assume.) And you're free to do as you will. I just tend to like to math-craft stuff.

Avoron wrote:
That's nice and all, but compare that to a level 8 human fighter (which is far from an optimal class) with 20 strength making a standard Spirited Charge/Power Attack with a masterwork lance. That fighter will have about a 90% chance to hit for about 3d8+54 damage.

That's not really comparable for a couple of reasons.

1. You're only going to get one or two of those off each fight since it requires a charge.

2. A Two-handed power-attacking fighter gains much less from magical enchantments than a character with multiple smaller attacks.

3. Going by an AC of 21 - I don't see how you're hitting on a 3. BAB (8) + Focus feats (2) + Training (1) + masterwork (1) + charge (2) + strength (5) + Power Attack (-3) = +16 to hit, meaning you hit on a 5, or only 80% of the time. (Though your damage is also off - it should be 3d8 + 57.) It should be an average damage of 58.28. (80% of the 70.5 average roll with the extra added in for the crit chance)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. You're ignoring that with an agile enchantment would give full dex damage to all nat weapon attacks, but with the unarmed thrown in only the main hand unarmed would get them.

2. You're ignoring that taking Improved Unarmed Strike & later TWF use up the ninja's very limited feat resources.

1) What makes you think that? Amulet of Mighty Fists clearly says it grants the bonuses to unarmed and natural attacks. There is no indication that it's either or. In fact, it's price is double that of normal weapon enchants, indicating that it was intentionally designed to function with more than one kind of attack. So the Agile enchantment would give Dex to damage on both unarmed and claw attacks.

2) Improved Unarmed Strike can be taken with a feat or with a ninja trick. But you're right, I should have said it was 2 feats against 4, not 1. Way I look at it though, its worth the feat. It nets you a weapon that cannot be disarmed, sundered, stolen, or removed. If you took Avoron's fighter's lance away, he would be absolutely helpless.

I think thats worth one ninja trick/feat.


Your talking about if all attacks hit? On a build that combines two-weapon fighting and natural attacks?

The whole reason everyone doesn't do that is because all attacks won't hit.

Spoiler about the fighter example:

Incidentally, I didn't actually add in fighter class features that last time, just feats, so it would end up being more like 95% to hit and 3d8+66 damage (with the Two-Handed Fighter archetype). I was also assuming Furious Focus, which is really a must-have for a character like that.

Even just having that same fighter use Vital Strike with a greatsword results in 85% to hit and 4d6+22 damage. More average damage, the ability to move and attack, and less dependence on the situation. And this is with a rather weak class, a rather weak fighting style, and a decidedly unoptimized character. I just don't feel like doing the math for more complicated attack methods, and that's not really relevant. Oh, and for about the same price as a flaming amulet of mighty fists, the fighter can get Gloves of Dueling and a +1 greatsword, for a 95% chance to hit and 4d6+25 damage.

Oh, and with Ride-by-Attack you can get a charge every round, and Ride-by-Attack is a prerequisite for Spirited Charge.

This wasn't really meant to be a specific parallel to that character, just an example that this character is missing out on a lot of potential bonuses to damage and attack, for not much gain. Martial characters with 3/4 base attack bonuses can't afford those kind of penalties.

Your character isn't exactly underpowered, but don't think these attack penalties are less significant than they actually are.


As for tricks, there are 4 I can take as normal tricks, and 5 I can take as master tricks.

For tricks, I'm looking at:
Vanishing Trick
Combat Trick (to grab the Rogue's Offensive Defense trick)
Pressure Points
Flurry of Stars

For master tricks:
Invisible Blade
Unarmed Combat Mastery
See the Unseen
Ghost Step
Unbound Step

1 to 50 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Tiefling Claw Ninja All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.