Redneckdevil |
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Was doing some reading and researching for ideas of a campaign im gonna do and i came across some interesting things about aboleths and veiled ones etc. It got me thinking how aboleths and dragons would perceive each other.
Now when we think of aboleths we think of giant ferocious intelligent and manipulative fish and dragons we think of giant ferocious flying element breathing lizards. But they are both intelligent and both can assume human forms and both have manipulated mankind to one degree or another.
So it got me thinking, what would happen if there was both assuming human forms in a human kingdom. How would they perceive one another if they found out about one another is really the nitty gritty of my question. Woukd they even consider the other and if they did would it be on friendly, foe, or nuetral terms in general situations?
I see some good ideas here but i cant for the life of me find any material about this and was wanting to know what you think.
Eltacolibre |
Aboleth, veiled masters have an alien agenda and dragons aren't even part of their objectives to be quite frank. Veiled Masters have nothing to gain from associating with a dragon.
Dragons vary way too much, wyverns don't care, chromatic and metallic dragons have so many different types of dragon its way too vague to say one answer. That's not without adding primal dragons into the mix or dragons from outer space. Most dragons don't go around traveling as human form, most spend their times in their lairs, as typical as it may be. Brass Dragon are the nomads dragon and mostly they are very lazy, so even if they met Aboleth or veiled masters, they wouldn't even care and quite often they run away when opposed by strong opponents, like a blue dragon taking over a brass dragon lair.
Uwotm8 |
I really think their own hubris would lead them to both ignore the other as being "they're beneath me" and try to weave them into their own plans to accomplish their goals. Whether they're friendly or whatever would depend. Dragons run the gamut in alignments and philosophies whereas the bestiary aboleth is LE. Dragons tend to be drawn into their majesty, though, and tend to think that gets them something. Aboleths tend to be more the puppet masters, though. However, each have their own exceedingly ancient stories. Interestingly though, in spite of an aboleth's self importance (justified or not), a dragon might have a stronger direct blood tie to their progenitors, Dahak and Tiamat. The counter balance to THAT would be the genetic memory of the aboleth means they are literally the same being similar to samsarans and might very well maintain more ancient secrets and lore in their heads.
So... I would summarize the aboleth as the more practiced schemer with the knowledge of eons to pull off their plans and dragons as more enigmatic than secretive whose innate magic and natural ability gives them a sense of entitlement.
boring7 |
It depends on how much the GM does with dragons, since for the most part in Golarion fluff their titanic intelligence and incredible age are ignored in favor of them being big dumb piles of stats and treasure at the bottom of a cave who MAYBE operate as a single high-power political player every once in a while. I mean really, if I were a dragon in Golarion and survived to adulthood, I'd use my amazing bonuses to diplomacy to forge a nation, or at least a network, which had dragons keep an eye out for one another and "taking care of" threats to our kind. But that doesn't fit the Saint George/Smaug tropes that tend to happen.
In general though, dragons are aerial predators, as long as there are peaks to reside on and game or fish to catch, anything else is just for amusement. Dragons tend to play for keeps but ignore what isn't a problem. For Aboleth there is a long-standing sense of hateful conspiracy and a desire to control everything directly. A difference between an absentee landlord who taxes heavily but doesn't care beyond his payday and a cruel, obsessive landlord who wants to control every aspect of your life.
At least, that's what I get from the timelines and descriptions.
Given that assumption, Aboleth only care about dragons as one more race to conquer, and low on the list since they're far away (up in the air) and not particularly involved in the Aboleth plots. Dragons only care about Aboleth if the fish-things manage to cause the dragon problems, like calling down a starstone or raising the tide to the point it drowns all the tasty deer.
If you assume dragons have a bit more going on (like the Imperial dragons half a world away) then you can stack on other things. The dragons manipulate humanoids to go against the Kraken, who are themselves either pawns or players in the Aboleth games, while the Sauhuagin are constantly being manipulated by any and all forces and regularly biting the hands (or tentacles) that feed them because they're all frenzied shark people. In that setup the dragons and aboleth, if aware of each other at all behind all the proxies, see the other as an inferior player that needs to be destroyed and is "completely wrong" about that whole "our god is older/better than your god and so are we not that we care about gods but we still kinda do" argument.
Aboleth have a weird association with religion. They claim to be older than all the gods, but also end up having a weird worship-like reverence for certain kinds of powers from the Far Realms and/or the Great Old Ones who are, themselves, the product of gods breaking pieces of abyssal chaos and Apsu is both the god who created all the other gods and not because causality and faith all make the whole thing a huge mess.
boring7 |
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Another consideration is that average aboleth are, as a rule, not as smart as any dragon who has made it past 200. The veiled masters are quite a bit smarter, of course, and the aboleth have their unknown rulers (Kraken? GOOs? Other unknown horrors?) and their vaguely-organized networks while dragons tend to work alone.
I'm not familiar with the city you're talking about, I should probably read the taldor book but for now I'll sally forth.
Hmm...inspiration strikes:
Aroden died. That's kind of a big deal. Dragons and Aboleth don't normally care, and indeed most of them just point to that as proof that mortal races and their gods are "beneath them." Five players have another view.
Player one is a Blue Dragon who did the math and realized chasing down why and how Aroden died could lead to his own ascension. He wants that power, not just "because power" but "because revengeance." His mate and his children (and his dreams of a dynasty) were torn down and destroyed inadvertently by Player 2s plots. Knows of Player two, doesn't know who he is. Knows of Player three, is currently adopting a "wait-and-see" approach. Has connections with other dragons, maybe even with Player 5 in a roundabout, backchannel way.
Player two is a veiled master. Ascension is nice, but what he really wants is "how to kill a god, volume 1" in his library which he can use to further both the ends of his race and "show them, show them all, nyah nyah." Has yet to even know about player 1, currently blames Player one's interference on player 3. Has faulty connections with the Aboleth in general, but doesn't have a whole lot of pull until he does something impressive later on in the campaign, like flood a big city or raise up some ry'leh-type city from the sea floor.
Player three is the upstart. Mystery figure, rumored to be a Pactmaster of Khatapesh but all signs point to his arrival in Taldor from the wrong direction and he doesn't have all the same affectations that those drug-peddling fellows have. Spoiler Alert: he's from outer space, a Sarcesian like the pactmasters, but FAR more recent. He doesn't know anything about this god-chasing business, he just wants enough power to build a ship and get off this high-gravity rock.
Player four is Achaekek, this thing is in his wheelhouse and it's pretty much his only job. Red Mantis assassins makin' moves. He has a nuclear option, and the PCs do not want him to use it.
Player five is the PCs and any patron/information-broker/plot hook thrower that keeps finding breadcrumbs for them to follow. Might be a metallic dragon.
It's just a thought.
Redneckdevil |
Thats some good thoughts right there and if u dont mind im gonna steal some of them :)
Also dont know why my post disappeared :(
umm since its disappeared, i think the city i was talking about with the starstone was that humans ages ago had advanced very far and was gonna try and overthrow their veiled masters and so they called down the starstone to destroy their massive city.
boring7 |
Ah, Azlant, and humanity in general.
The general impression I got is that neither the aboleth nor humanity has gotten that far. Basically the Aboleth were running the oceans, and manipulating the Azlanti humans (where were kind of Numenor, "high-men" Tolkien humans, genetically superior and...stuff. It was intentionally vague). The humans stopped listening (weren't necessarily a threat yet, but might become one) and the elves were worse, so the aboleth brought down the Starstone figuring they'd hit the central government and regain control during the chaos. Earthfall happened, and was so much bigger than they expected that they took just as much damage as everyone else. Aboleth and veiled masters ever since have been making weaker and less organized plays simply because their great under-empire was just as ravaged as everyone else' and because after killing off humanity they didn't have any decent pawns.
Elves were gone, drow were actually a threat in their own right (not to mention hard to get to), orcs were too dang DUMB to control, and everybody else was part of some other game with its own deeply-entrenched players. Hard to puppet-master Tien if they're being puppet-mastered by Imperial dragons, Angels, and Qlippoth.
Anyway, Taldor was probably never on that level of "golden cities and glory" like Azlant, but that wouldn't stop an enterprising Veiled Master from breaking the empire anyway. He'd probably be acting with limited support (no one else in his club would care enough to help out) but being (presumably) immortal and pretty powerful he can still do it, for proactice or fun or paranoia.
And now, Aroden's dead, there's a giant storm that they may or may not be just as terrified and threatened by as humanity, and Cheliax is under the control of people who are (from an aboleth's POV) just as bad or worse than the Church of Aroden. So Mr. Veil is back where he started in some ways, but has a chaotic mess in Taldor he can try to turn against Cheliax or to some other ends if he so chooses.
But admittedly, I could be wrong on some of that stuff, a lot of Golarion fluff includes "mysteries" and things that are vague or mentioned sporadically with confusion. For example the Pactmasters, they're nothing but a mystery according to every sourcebook except one. There is a single throwaway line in Distant Worlds that says they're Sarcesians before diving back into other topics. Giant freaking mystery of an entire AP that is never solved and there it is, practically forgotten. Sarcesians themselves don't even have a statblock, just a random picture and a bunch of fluff-text.
This is either really annoying in its limitation or really freeing in its available creative license. Up to the GM which one.
Lathiira |
Azlant was an entire continent. The aboleth raised up humanity from nomads to civilization. When the Azlanti got too arrogant, the aboleth said, "Fine, experiment's done, time to wipe the table off." So they pulled an asteroid in from out beyond the reaches of the solar system and aimed it at Azlant. It was a big enough threat that the goddess of magic and the moon tried to block it with the moon. The moon broke, she died. The pieces slammed into the world as the event known as Earthfall. Azlant went down. The only remaining parts of it are a few islands, including the Mordant Spire. I get the impression that the aboleth might have overreacted slightly, considering the damage done. They also don't seem to be too interested in humanity on the surface anymore, at least not like the days of Azlant.
And Azlant were definitely like the Numenoreans; including their homeland sinking.
Most of this is in the Inner Sea hardcover.