Pistol-Whip ability: does it work with Weapon Finesse?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

In the case of pistols, say, could you use weapon finesse when using pistol-whip? I'm gonna assume that a musket used this way would not be finessable but could benefit from 1.5 x STR?

RAW seems to indicate "no" as a pistol used this way is referred to as a one handed weapon (not a light weapon) but this seems uncertain at best because it refers to the ranged weapon firearms table, and not specifically outlined in terms of "one handed melee".

Has anyone ever received confirmation on this? The damage for one handed pistol-whippings is 1d6, which is in line with most light weapons... (if we go by improvised weapon rule guidelines...)

Scarab Sages

RAW, it's treated as a one-handed or two-handed, and therefore not finessable.

I'd let you use finesse a pistol as a house rule, as it's a pretty terrible deed even with it.

Silver Crusade

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It's pretty well established that, when Two-Weapon Fighting with two pistols, you take the penalties for using two one-handed weapons (-4/-4), and not the penalties for using two light weapons (-2/-2).

Going by that logic, I'd say you couldn't combine Weapon Finesse and Pistol Whip.

Sovereign Court

ok thanks... this helps me make the decision to get rid of weapon finesse in exchange for deft shootist... if pistol-whip could be finessed I would keep it, but now I'm gonna go ahead and retrain this...

Silver Crusade

Deft Shootist is AMAZING!

I took it on this character, too.

Grand Lodge

Effortless Lace might work for it.

Sovereign Court

I can't find that item anywhere!

Grand Lodge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I can't find that item anywhere!

It's from the Giant Hunter's Handbook, which was only released a couple of weeks ago.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Here it is:

Pathfinder Player Companion:Giant Hunter’s Handbook. wrote:

EFFORTLESS LACE

PRICE: 2,500 GP
SLOT none CL 15th WEIGHT —
AURA strong transmutation
This elegant silk ribbon gleams like mithral and feels like polished steel.
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon’s magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon’s intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 1,250 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shrink item.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Here it is:

Pathfinder Player Companion:Giant Hunter’s Handbook. wrote:

EFFORTLESS LACE

PRICE: 2,500 GP
SLOT none CL 15th WEIGHT —
AURA strong transmutation
This elegant silk ribbon gleams like mithral and feels like polished steel.
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon’s magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon’s intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 1,250 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shrink item.

LOL Now what happens when you put it on a bastard sword? A light weapon you need two hands to wield? :P

This will help Savage technologists with their Sword and Gun ability.
EDIT: just rechecked and I guess it doesn't help them. The ability requires a one handed firearm so a light one wouldn't work.

Grand Lodge

graystone wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Here it is:

Pathfinder Player Companion:Giant Hunter’s Handbook. wrote:

EFFORTLESS LACE

PRICE: 2,500 GP
SLOT none CL 15th WEIGHT —
AURA strong transmutation
This elegant silk ribbon gleams like mithral and feels like polished steel.
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon’s magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon’s intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 1,250 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shrink item.
LOL Now what happens when you put it on a bastard sword? A light weapon you need two hands to wield? :P

Yes.

A light weapon, that requires two hands to use.

Oh, and fools we be to suggest such a thing is silly.

ಠ_ಠ

Sovereign Court

Awww man.... this won't work with Pistol-Whip... it only works on slashing and piercing weapon... why the bludgeon hate.... ALWAYS with the BLUDGEON HATE!!

Scarab Sages

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Mmmmmm.... Pistol Whip

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:

Mmmmmm.... Pistol Whip

LMAO!


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Here it is:

Pathfinder Player Companion:Giant Hunter’s Handbook. wrote:

EFFORTLESS LACE

PRICE: 2,500 GP
SLOT none CL 15th WEIGHT —
AURA strong transmutation
This elegant silk ribbon gleams like mithral and feels like polished steel.
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon’s magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon’s intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 1,250 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shrink item.

Sorry to bump this, but I have a question - would this also make the weapon count as a light weapon when using two-weapon fighting? The light/one-handed modifier for TWF is listed in the combat rules and so is not a feat, spell, or special weapon ability.


It can be used with any feat that "can be used in conjunction with light weapons." I'm pretty sure you can use Two-Weapon Fighting with light weapons.


graystone wrote:
It can be used with any feat that "can be used in conjunction with light weapons." I'm pretty sure you can use Two-Weapon Fighting with light weapons.

That's fairly apparent, but you can also use Two-Weapon Fighting with one-handed weapons. The TWF feat reduces the penalties on TWF with -2 (for the main attack) and -6 (for the off-hand attack). That means you're hitting at -4/-4 with two one-handed weapons, or -2/-2 if you're hitting with one one-handed and one light weapon.

The extra -2 modifier for using a light weapon is in effect whether or not you have the TWF feat - it's not a function of the feat, but of the combat rules.

...Or am I just overthinking this?

Grand Lodge

Well, I'm not 100% sure on RAW in this case, but I can speak for the RAI. The guy who wrote that item intended for it to apply to TWF (although as the author of the Titan Mauler can attest to, original authorial intent doesn't necessarily last past the editing phase).


Hmmm... That's interesting. Strict RAW maybe not. Myself, I'd allow it.


Thanks for the replies! I did a little bit of digging and found this post:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Without giving away any spoilers on the book, I will say that one of the reasons I worded the Effortless Lace as I did was to make dual-scimitar builds something that could actually be accomplished without a massive –4 penalty on attack rolls. We'll see soon enough how the fine gentlemen with the Pathfinder Society choose to handle the Effortless Lace, I'm sure, but I designed it the way I did to expand upon the number of finesse builds that people could play effectively. In that way, its sort of like a blinkback belt or belt of hurling, but for finesse weapons.

Again, not a Paizo-official response. If you quote my post and try to use it as +1 flaming finesse weapon bane ammo, I can't promise that an angry rune giant won't show at your doorstep in the wee hours of the morning, looking for vengeance.

The RaI seems perfectly clear, which is good enough for it to fly in my game. :)

I am a little curious why he didn't simply use a phrase such as " the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon for all purposes" rather than specifically listing feats, spells and special weapon abilities, perhaps it was changed in development or phrased that way to limit the possibilities for shenanigans? I sent Alexander a PM and invited him to weigh in. :)


Ok I wanted to bring back up the Bastard Sword with the Effortless Lace, if I may?

If you proficiency in the Bastard Sword, it becomes a One Handed sword, or at least treated as such by you via special training.

If I applied Effortless Lace to it, would it count as a Light Weapon I could wield with one hand still?


The Cube of Rubix wrote:
If I applied Effortless Lace to it, would it count as a Light Weapon I could wield with one hand still?

Provided you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency, I believe the answer is yes.


Well what if you have proficiency through being a Tengu, or a Kensai Magus?


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The Cube of Rubix wrote:
Well what if you have proficiency through being a Tengu, or a Kensai Magus?

Both of those provide proficiency, so again I believe the answer is yes. :)


I am curious because of there being the Two-Handed version of the Bastard Sword, I always awarded both to a player who picked it up with Kensai or as a Tengu or even if the Cleric or Warpriest picked an obscure god.

I ask only due to a Paladin character I know worships a Lawful Good deity who has it as his Favored Weapon, and we tend to allow them proficiency in the weapons of their deity.

But thank you for letting me side track the thread.

Contributor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Kudaku wrote:

Thanks for the replies! I did a little bit of digging and found this post:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Without giving away any spoilers on the book, I will say that one of the reasons I worded the Effortless Lace as I did was to make dual-scimitar builds something that could actually be accomplished without a massive –4 penalty on attack rolls. We'll see soon enough how the fine gentlemen with the Pathfinder Society choose to handle the Effortless Lace, I'm sure, but I designed it the way I did to expand upon the number of finesse builds that people could play effectively. In that way, its sort of like a blinkback belt or belt of hurling, but for finesse weapons.

Again, not a Paizo-official response. If you quote my post and try to use it as +1 flaming finesse weapon bane ammo, I can't promise that an angry rune giant won't show at your doorstep in the wee hours of the morning, looking for vengeance.

The RaI seems perfectly clear, which is good enough for it to fly in my game. :)

I am a little curious why he didn't simply use a phrase such as " the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon for all purposes" rather than specifically listing feats, spells and special weapon abilities, perhaps it was changed in development or phrased that way to limit the possibilities for shenanigans? I sent Alexander a PM and invited him to weigh in. :)

The reason that the effortless lace specifically states that it only works in conjunction with feats, spells, and special abilities is to ensure that it isn't an item that just anyone can pick up and get a ton of mileage out of. The effortless lace was always intended to be a specialist item; either you use it because you found some giant treasure or specialize in wielding bigger-than-thou weapons or because you're a finesse guy and specialize in using lighter weapons.

As for Two-Weapon Fighting, yes. I did intend for the effortless lace to make Two-Weapon Fighting more inclusive for other weapons. However, the effortless lace does nothing unless you actually have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat; merely fighting with a weapon in each hand is not enough for the effortless lace's magic to work. This isn't the first effect in the game that specifically requires the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to function in any case; the Sword and Pistol feat specifically notes that you have to be using Two-Weapon Fighting for its effects to function as well, that merely "wielding a weapon in each hand" isn't enough.

Despite being the writer, please remember that this is really just my intent for how I envisioned the item working. It isn't iron-cast and if you as a GM think that such an interaction is too good, don't use my intent. PFS people can't use it period, which is one of the major reasons I'm disclosing my intent on the item in the first place. I really don't want people slapping each other with my words.

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
graystone wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Here it is:

Pathfinder Player Companion:Giant Hunter’s Handbook. wrote:

EFFORTLESS LACE

PRICE: 2,500 GP
SLOT none CL 15th WEIGHT —
AURA strong transmutation
This elegant silk ribbon gleams like mithral and feels like polished steel.
When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon for 24 hours, the ribbon’s magic permanently merges with the weapon, reducing the attack roll penalty incurred by a wielder who is smaller than the weapon’s intended wielder by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 1,250 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shrink item.
LOL Now what happens when you put it on a bastard sword? A light weapon you need two hands to wield? :P

Yes.

A light weapon, that requires two hands to use.

Oh, and fools we be to suggest such a thing is silly.

ಠ_ಠ

The effortless lace only makes you a light weapon for the purpose of feats, spells, and special weapon abilities. One of the reasons that I choose to specifically lay out what it affects rather than allow it to be treated as a light weapon "for all purposes" was so that people didn't get the impression that they could wrap it around a greatsword and use said greatsword in one hand.

The bastard sword (and by extension, the katana) is something of an outlier as far as the effortless lace goes. However, there's an awesome FAQ on the topic. Basically, the FAQ states that a bastard sword's handedness counts as needing as many hands as you need to wield it, so two hands if you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency or one hand if you do. This means that if you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency, the effortless lace does NOTHING for you. That FAQ also goes on to state that the bastard sword is treated as a two-handed weapon when you wield it in two hands, so effectively the effortless lace "turns off" if you try to wield your bastard sword in two hands.

In short, the effortless lace DOES NOT transform your bastard sword / katana into an elven curved blade.


Thanks for sharing your insight Alexander! I'm going to show this item to my swashbuckler/investigator player, who I suspect is going to be very happy indeed! He's been playing around with trying to make TWF work with rapiers but has had very little luck so far, this is just up his alley! :)


If i understand it correctly you can't use effortless lace on a large greatsword and weild it (with two hands) as a medium creature, correct?


"When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon". Greatsword isn't one-handed.


graystone wrote:
"When wrapped around the grip of a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon". Greatsword isn't one-handed.

You are right, i didn't noticed that thing.

Sczarni

No wonder it was banned for PFS.

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