DR is basically useless. Anyone try using 3.0 DR numbers with 3.5 / PF bypass conditions?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Zaister wrote:

My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?

I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that basically says "for each +1 enhancement bonus of the weapon (not counting bonuses from greater magic weapon), reduce the DR by 5 points." In this way, DR/magic can become meaningful again.

Keep in mind that magic weapons are supposed to be somewhat rare and only in the hands of rich people or elite units. DR 15/magic is useless against PCs but allows the creature to walk up to an army, kill thousands and not take a single scratch.


It also allows the creature to overcome the Dr/magic of whatever it fights.

Dark Archive

Damage Reduction is the opposite of Spell Resistance. It's far better for player characters than it is for enemies.
When I played my Graveknight Antipaladin, his DR 10/magic prevented a huge amount of damage since most creatures weren't able to ignore it.


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Coming from a 1e background, in which some monsters had, essentially, "DR infinity/+3," I much prefer PF damage reduction.

DR as reduction rather than immunity is good, because otherwise everyone has to spend all their money on weapon enhancements to avoid every adventure sooner or later leading directly to TPK Town.

Higher bonuses bypassing metals types is good, because it makes a +5 sword actually worth every penny of the 50K gp sale price.

Sovereign Court

If you do raise DR much - I'd reccomend changing it to a hybrid of DR & resistances.

For example - that vampire may have DR5&20 - the first 5 is taken out of every attack - the 20 is addional damage resistance for each round. This would allow the vampire to be nearly immpossible for a low level fighter to take on alone as his single attack is unlikely to do more than 25 points. However, if the entire group works together to take him down, it wouldn't impossible. Plus it doesn't hose TWF/flurry so much.

Dark Archive

It seems to me that no one buys a +3/4/5 weapon. People don't think a +3 is sexy enough. They rather have a +1 shocking keen. How many games really are ther that feature such high level characters to justify a +3 weapon? With the general guideline no one item should be worth more than 1/2 your total wealth, an 18K item would not be considered till level what, 8/9 level?

I see no one but myself go for silver cause they hate and loath the -1 damage. I never see anyone go for a magic cold iron weapon, people just cannot justify that cost.

I love eidolons but am happy to let the 2 handed weapon person shine vs dr. Though you can put energy damage as an evolution and on the amulet of natural attacks. I don't see Dr mag often enough to justify tthe mag strike evolution but scrolls of evolution surge ate incrediblely versitile.

I want to remind the OP DR is tough in 3/4 bab classes, especially if they only have less than 18 str.

Before leaving, I want to add I think anyone who has weapon focus should carry 2 copies of that weapon, each a differentmetal. I usually go magical silver and masterwork cold iron. If I get sinderef, disarmed or stunned, causing to loose grip, I rather draw my back up then provoke picking the other off the floor. The mear cost of a backup masterwork weapon keeps you in great fighting form, and a little versatile with that second being anothe metal.


VM mercenario wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that basically says "for each +1 enhancement bonus of the weapon (not counting bonuses from greater magic weapon), reduce the DR by 5 points." In this way, DR/magic can become meaningful again.
Keep in mind that magic weapons are supposed to be somewhat rare and only in the hands of rich people or elite units. DR 15/magic is useless against PCs but allows the creature to walk up to an army, kill thousands and not take a single scratch.

I call that a feature.

DR isn't supposed to be a real obstacle for PCs, IMO; it's supposed to create another reason that the world needs heroes. :) And the '+1 weapons overcome any and all values of X/magic' always seemed silly to me, so I really like VM mercenario's idea.* It creates an incentive to get those higher enhancement bonuses without creating an insurmountable obstacle for characters whose magical weapons aren't quite up to snuff.

*Which isn't a new idea, to be fair; plenty of gamers have played by it. But kudos for coming up with it on your own VM!


Zaister wrote:

My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?

Stopping summoned monsters and animal companions. Plot immunity to terrorize villages or armies.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that basically says "for each +1 enhancement bonus of the weapon (not counting bonuses from greater magic weapon), reduce the DR by 5 points." In this way, DR/magic can become meaningful again.
Keep in mind that magic weapons are supposed to be somewhat rare and only in the hands of rich people or elite units. DR 15/magic is useless against PCs but allows the creature to walk up to an army, kill thousands and not take a single scratch.

I call that a feature.

DR isn't supposed to be a real obstacle for PCs, IMO; it's supposed to create another reason that the world needs heroes. :) And the '+1 weapons overcome any and all values of X/magic' always seemed silly to me, so I really like VM mercenario's idea.* It creates an incentive to get those higher enhancement bonuses without creating an insurmountable obstacle for characters whose magical weapons aren't quite up to snuff.

*Which isn't a new idea, to be fair; plenty of gamers have played by it. But kudos for coming up with it on your own VM!

I think you got confused. That is Zaisters idea.

I think it's a pretty awful one. Martials don't need extra nerfs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zaister wrote:

My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?

Mowing through armies of soldiers with nothing better than standard weapons. It's the kind of monster that completely eliminates the village militia, in other words, a monster for heroes to fight.

And always keep in mind the total package, a monster with both DR and Fast Healing is that much more invulnerable.


VM mercenario wrote:

I think you got confused. That is Zaisters idea.

I think it's a pretty awful one. Martials don't need extra nerfs.

My bad. Sorry Zaister!


Zaister wrote:
My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?

It keeps an army of a thousand level 1 warriors with longbows from taking out the dragon.


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VM mercenario wrote:
Zaister wrote:

My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?

I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that basically says "for each +1 enhancement bonus of the weapon (not counting bonuses from greater magic weapon), reduce the DR by 5 points." In this way, DR/magic can become meaningful again.

Keep in mind that magic weapons are supposed to be somewhat rare and only in the hands of rich people or elite units. DR 15/magic is useless against PCs but allows the creature to walk up to an army, kill thousands and not take a single scratch.

An oil of magic weapon is so cheap that your garden variety 1st level warrior can carry at least one for emergencies (such as punching through DR/magic or hitting incorporeal foes). Greater magic weapon spells are even more of a thing for adventuring groups low on coin.

Honestly "magic" weaponry is simple and easy to obtain, even if it's not a 2300gp item.


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Raymond Lambert wrote:

It seems to me that no one buys a +3/4/5 weapon. People don't think a +3 is sexy enough. They rather have a +1 shocking keen. How many games really are ther that feature such high level characters to justify a +3 weapon? With the general guideline no one item should be worth more than 1/2 your total wealth, an 18K item would not be considered till level what, 8/9 level?

Barring a few rare exceptions (Keen being one, if you're going for a crit build and can't spare a Feat or want it earlier), getting an extra +1 is ALWAYS better.


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Rynjin wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:

It seems to me that no one buys a +3/4/5 weapon. People don't think a +3 is sexy enough. They rather have a +1 shocking keen. How many games really are ther that feature such high level characters to justify a +3 weapon? With the general guideline no one item should be worth more than 1/2 your total wealth, an 18K item would not be considered till level what, 8/9 level?

Barring a few rare exceptions (Keen being one, if you're going for a crit build and can't spare a Feat or want it earlier), getting an extra +1 is ALWAYS better.

This. +X weapons are generally the strongest options barring some particular and often low-end weapon enhancements such as bane (for particular enemies) or courageous (the latter is generally not a main-weapon ability either).

+X to hit and damage is hard to beat, especially given how much extra +hit% adds to your overall damage, and the fact it punches through more DR types just adds to what is already, generally, a superior choice.

By mid levels, elemental enhancemments are very quickly falling off in usefulness (1d6 fire is near useless vs fire resist 5, totally useless vs 6 or better which is a baseline resist energy oil or the resistances of most upper-end monsters). Aligned enhancements are only as good as the metagame (generally holy is king here, but it adds roughly +7 damage vs evil foes at the cost of +10% hit and +2 damage vs everything, a good enhancement but not always great). Most of the other stuff is exceptionally situational or grossly overpriced from a cost vs benefit standpoint.

Dark Archive

Alignment or energy damage is also not multiplied on a crit.

Conductive and cruel are nice enchantments, especially for antipaladins.
Furious is a must-have for barbarians, but it's an increase to the enhancement bonus.


Starsunder wrote:

As title says, really.

DR numbers are so low as to be basically worthless. I really enjoyed the change in the way you bypass DR (having to use a silver weapon, holy weapon, slashing, etc.), but the DR itself (basically anywhere from 5-15) is so easily surpassed by melee characters that it doesn't really matter if you used the proper weapon or not, which IMO defeats the purpose.

So, has anyone experimented with using the higher DR numbers of 3.0 while using the bypass conditions of 3.5/PF?

I use the old numbers and the old bypassers.

I mean, not aligned weapon for that i use holy vs evil & unholy vs good.
Also material reductions, nothing from aligment, thats make the things very silly to me.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Coriat wrote:
ckdragons wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Our game has actually gone the opposite route of late, keeping the numbers lower but making it harder to completely bypass DR.
Would you mind elaborating on your game mechanics with DR?
I actually don't recall or have handy the exact details (it's largely implemented on the DM side), but I'll go looking.

I have the following DR.

DR/magic (greater magic requires +3, high magic requires +5, epic requires +6)
DR/alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful)
DR/material (adamantine, cold iron, silver, etc)
DR/type (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing)
DR/-

A +5 club (for instance) doesn't penetrate anything other than high magic and lower. Not DR/evil, not DR/slashing.

And we don't use the nonsense "+6 total enhancement bonus" crap for DR/epic. If you don't have a +4 appropriate bane weapon, or a +6 actual enhancement bonus, you don't go through it.

A paladin's smite evil penetrates DR/good. Not all DR.

Mythic as well. Mythic abilities that allow you to 'ignore DR', allow you to 'penetrate epic DR'. Not holy or barbarian or such.

Kain is my GM, so these are the rules in question.


I just miss out the + equals what material, like in 3.5 works well for us.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It was the lack of an amulet of mighty fists or greater magic fang that dropped his total damage.

The enchantment bonus from greater magic fang or greater magic weapon doesn't help with DR aside from DR/magic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It was DR 15/bludgeoning and magic.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It was DR 15/bludgeoning and magic.

Which means magic fang would not have been useful if your pet didn't have bludgeoning attacks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Claws and bite.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Ashiel wrote:
By mid levels, elemental enhancemments are very quickly falling off in usefulness (1d6 fire is near useless vs fire resist 5, totally useless vs 6 or better which is a baseline resist energy oil or the resistances of most upper-end monsters).

Don't forget that elemental damage is also good for incidentally shutting down Regeneration. Had an encounter last weekend which would have been a TPK if our fighter's flaming warhammer hadn't turned off the foe's Regen 10 every time he hit.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

DR is meant to drag out encounters if the party isn't prepared and therefore wastes resources by making a battle last longer. The problem is that it's too binary. If the party can bypass it, the encounter ends quickly because the monster likely got lower stats as a result of the DR. If the party cannot bypass it, then the battle becomes incredibly annoying at best and unbeatable at worst. The worst sin of DR is that it's simply a giant punch to the fighter's face. In addition, it punishes players who pick flavorful enhancements for their weapons instead of the boring +1 bonuses.


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It's not any more of a punishment for being unprepared as not having a method of flight after 6th level, or not being able to deal with incorporeal foes, or not having spells to deal with magic immune enemies, etc. It's a challenge fight a creature using a method they're specifically resistant to, which is why you use different methods- using some spells, subduing the foe with grappling, aiding another when your shtick isn't functional, etc.

Preparation is a big part of the game, and thematically a big part of adventuring. Especially being prepared to switch tactics when your primary one won't help. We don't say that energy resistances, magic immunity, or having a save that's much stronger than the others are punches to the face of casters because their favorite spell won't work; they use a different tool. Likewise, so can physical characters; it's trivial to carry around different weapons for material or damage type DR, and dramatically more efficient to enhance a number of weapons at lower rates than it is to dump all of your money into one weapon (and risk losing it all when your weapon is disarmed or destroyed).


Cyrad wrote:
DR is meant to drag out encounters if the party isn't prepared and therefore wastes resources by making a battle last longer. The problem is that it's too binary. If the party can bypass it, the encounter ends quickly because the monster likely got lower stats as a result of the DR. If the party cannot bypass it, then the battle becomes incredibly annoying at best and unbeatable at worst. The worst sin of DR is that it's simply a giant punch to the fighter's face. In addition, it punishes players who pick flavorful enhancements for their weapons instead of the boring +1 bonuses.

You're assuming the entire party has the exact same gear setup. Your magus may get through the DR 10/magic while the pouncing animal companion has its nice strength modifier mostly/entirely negated. Makes up for the fact that the AC can pounce or has a free grab attack or whatever. This isn't theorycrafting, either: the oracle in a game I'm running hates when a critter with DR other than magic steps up to the plate because her pouncing tiger animal companion suddenly can't shred the target like wet tissue paper. Which is fine, since it usually succeeds at grabbing the target anyways. Meanwhile, the magus slices through DR when he needs to via resource expenditure and the fighter simply power attacks to overwhelm the comparatively meager DR #s.

Speaking of fighters, there's a reason that they get weapon specialization and penetrating strike. Also, weapon training applies to ALL weapons of a certain type. A fighter in our previous game had 2 or 3 back-up longswords for various types of threats (one was ghost touch, one was silver, I think one was holy) which he used (to great effect I might add) with gusto. Their damage can be really good without DR and decent even when they're not beating it. Plus, there's something kinda neat conceptually about the seasoned fighter carrying around a couple back-up weapons for 'vampire hunting' or 'demon slaying'.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
VM mercenario wrote:

I think you got confused. That is Zaisters idea.

I think it's a pretty awful one. Martials don't need extra nerfs.

Which is absolutely not my experience in playing and running this game in multiple groups.

Scarab Sages

Starsunder wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

DR isn't supposed to make an opponent invulnerable: it is supposed to mitigate a percentage of damage in order to force the party to consume more resources in order to defeat said opponent.

They reduced the numbers from 3.0 deliberately because it was causing issues and people were complaining. Some encounters became almost certain TPKs if you didn't happen to have a good enough magic weapon (2e was the same in this regard).

By forcing very high DR values you just enforce high enhancement magic weapons on all martials, rather than create any interesting interaction. You just reduce the number of viable options.

Yes I know what DR is intended for. The problem is that it really doesn't make the party consume more resources. With the wealth of options availible for martial characters, including but not limited to vital strike (and its entire tree), power attack, multiple ways to boost damage (weapon training, favored enemy, weapon specialization, studied target, etc, there might as well not be DR at all.

But perhaps I'm just of the old school mindset: I frankly don't see the problem with an ill-prepared party having to turn tail and run because they lack the proper weapons to take down a monster.

Thanks for your response!

It DR is high enough to slow an an optimized fighter or barbarian, it will render anything less impotent. You reduce the melee game to a handful of classes using specific two-handed builds.


I don't think DR has to be high to be a significant factor in combat. It just has to not be negated.


Arrows do D8... pretty much makes them worthless for a dex based archer. Or pretty much any archer really...

We've had a lot of encounters that if we don't crit, then we don't hurt it...


DR is even easier for an archer to deal with than a melee character. All you need to swap out are arrows, you still get the full benefits of whatever enhancements you put on your bow. The only hole in your damage type options is slashing damage.

20 standard arrows costs 1 gp
20 cold iron arrows costs 2 gp
20 blunt arrows costs 2 gp
20 silver blanched arrows costs 11 gp

And on top of that, you have access to Clustered Shots which pretty much trivializes DR when you eventually get it.


d8+DA+STR+PBS+ other bonuses doesn't deal enough phantom? Are you not archery specific or what else is up?

Because generally you should be getting at least some through on a consist basis. By level 5 I would expect to see at least +11 on damage for an archery specific character (1 magic weapon, 3 strength, 1 point blank, 2 weapon specialization, 4 deadly aim, some work arounds depending on class of course). Which means more DR 10/- is annoying but not absolute negation.


New to Pathfinder after taking a few years off to non-d20 games. This thread brought the +3/+4/+5 equivalences to my attention. My first taste of reading that is "yuck!"

Anyway, the way I did it in 3.5, at least for non-cannon-fodder foes, was approximately this:
DR5 was unchanged
DR10 was "half the attack's damage, then DR5 to the remaining"
DR15 was "quarter the attack's damage, then DR5"
and so on.

You don't quite as easily get the "immunity to armies" from that, but it brought things like power attacking in check against DR. An example 20 point hit against DR10 became 5 damage (20 -> 10 -> 5) instead of 10. Against 15, it would be fully absorbed.

I was a golf bag carrier when I played, too. You need your cold iron weapon, your silver weapon, your adamantine weapon -- and it's trivial (by the time you really need to) to make them +1 as well. Alignment usually would come via buff... And then I was also saddened by seeing the other guy just power attacking with a 2-hander through the DR with his one big-plus weapon.

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