sspitfire1 |
So once EE comes around, the first few days items will be scarce and there may be some competition/strategy about acquiring them and distributing them.
Once the initial rush settles down, though, starter towns will need to be kept in-stock with starter gear for the newbs. In an effort to have a slightly organized approach to this, I would like to propose players, companies or whole settlements "Adopt a Starter Settlement."
Simply post below if there is a particular starter settlement you plan to or are willing to help keep supplied with starter gear. I will PM you to remind you of your pledge after the start of EE. TK is not listed since no one starts there.
Starter Settlements:
Ossians Crossing (Central West)
Rathglen (North West)
Marchmont (North Central)
Kindleburn (Central East)
<Tavernhold> Locke Goblin Squad Member |
Kero |
If the list stays as it is, I assume TEO/Brighthaven will "adopt" at least Kindleburn, but will possibly have a presence in other starter towns as well.
That said, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they decided to relocate one or more of the starter settlements. The first three still seem to be fairly clustered in the north west, with the entire southern half of the map being poorly covered.
Mbando Goblin Squad Member |
sspitfire1 |
Depending on how heavy settlements are recruiting, most new players will likely stick around town for the first few days to a month, even. More importantly, they will have nothing except the clothes on their back and a club. If they want something more than that, they'll need to buy it at the AH at their starter settlement. But those players won't be able to do that unless the starter town AH's are actually stocked with basic gear. That is where this comes into play. Its not meant to encourage them to stick around town, but rather facilitate their entrance into the game so that they can leave town sooner.
<Kabal> Kradlum Goblin Squad Member |
Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V Goblin Squad Member |
Mbando Goblin Squad Member |
Depending on how heavy settlements are recruiting, most new players will likely stick around town for the first few days to a month, even. More importantly, they will have nothing except the clothes on their back and a club. If they want something more than that, they'll need to buy it at the AH at their starter settlement.
No, they should join a player settlement. Makes much more sense to develop player towns and interact socially.
Giorgo Goblin Squad Member |
No, they should join a player settlement. Makes much more sense to develop player towns and interact socially.
To be fair, not every player is going to want to or be able to do so (because of play times, regions, or play style). Extendeding a welcome and a limited /low level AH stocking I believe is good in the long term.
And it's not an either/or situation , those who want to do this can, those who don't want to are not going to contribute.
Ravenlute Goblin Squad Member |
Caldeathe Baequiannia Goblin Squad Member |
Mbando wrote:
No, they should join a player settlement. Makes much more sense to develop player towns and interact socially.To be fair, not every player is going to want to or be able to do so (because of play times, regions, or play style). Extendeding a welcome and a limited /low level AH stocking I believe is good in the long term.
And it's not an either/or situation , those who want to do this can, those who don't want to are not going to contribute.
Since the game is supposed to be about settlements, making the game fun for those not getting involved in settlements is a choice that the developers need to make. If they want us to give people a reason to stick around the starter settlements, they will do that by reducing the cost of doing business there. Otherwise, I think our output should be going to our own settlements and our allies.
I presume some groups will stalk newly arrrived players and attempt to woo them with free or low-cost goods directly, rather than through the auction house. Artificially stocking the starter AH will interfere with that process of recruitment, and I don't see any upside to doing so.
I expect that my team will decide which of the closest player-controlled AHs it makes most sense to support and put all of our excess output in that place.
Caldeathe Baequiannia Goblin Squad Member |
My concern is teaching new players behaviour that is not what we'd like to see in the long run.
My (as flawed as it may be) vision of Golarion is a difficult land, fraught with peril, where people need to work together to thrive. I'd prefer player-settlements approach them and be up front that they can get better gear by striking out into the land in search of a settlement. That choice need not be permanent. I see the starte settlements as nothing but a necessary evil and hope fervently that they will be wiped from the land at the first opportunity.
I'm already concerend at the amount of development work that has gone into Thornkeep. I fear it will prove a magnet and am 100% opposed to doing anything that encourages PCs to spend time there.
EE Players should be dragging this world up from the muck. If Goblinworks needs the starter settlements to attract subscriptions, they can look to that. If OE, or a soon-to-come reality, requires a different strategy, we can deal with that in the moment.
Ravenlute Goblin Squad Member |
Ideally, when new players come into the game and they ask, "where can I get stuff," we should be pointing them to player settlements or players directly. We'll probably also tell them to farm the newbie areas a little bit first to get the coin to buy things with or find starter gear.
They won't start out naked so they aren't jumping in-game defenseless.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
I think a lot of players will spend their first several weeks in an NPC Settlement getting a handle on the game - beware Bandit Archers! It's great to recruit them fresh out of the box, but I think we need to accept that a lot of them will want to get their footing first. Seems like making an effort to help them even when they're not yet ready to join a Player Settlement is a noble goal.
Thod Goblin Squad Member |
1 copper listing are unlikely to last. Long term the market will take over.
For 1 copper it is worthwhile to:
a) buy the stuff and relist at 5c or 10c
b) buy the stuff and take to you home settlement to be handed out
c) buy the stuff and hand out to attract new members
d) buy the stuff and hoard
I'm not saying that I would encourage Emerald Lodge members to do that. But I see someone / some group to come up with the above sooner or later. In some cases it only takes a single person - or you can even combine some of the above to a more complex strategy.
Buy all, relist 20% of items for higher price to recoup costs, hand out 20% for free to attract people, hoard the rest to keep prices up.
1 copper listings distort the market - unless they are for common raw materials in the area which don't have any more value unless you are a travelling crafter missing the extra essence etc.
So I will not encourage Emerald Lodge members to take part in listing starter gear cheap as I see it to distort the market. I will encourage them to help and guide in starter settlements, I will encourage them to hand out gear for free and to tell them that better stuff can be had at Emerald Lodge and to guide them through the wilderness.
Edit: Yes I was interested in 1 or 2 maple staves at Rathglen. But for 1 copper someone bought them all. Less than a few hours later none were left. Would have preferred to pay 100 copper each for 1 or 2 instead of getting zero for 1 copper each.
Caldeathe Baequiannia Goblin Squad Member |
I think a lot of players will spend their first several weeks in an NPC Settlement getting a handle on the game - beware Bandit Archers! It's great to recruit them fresh out of the box, but I think we need to accept that a lot of them will want to get their footing first. Seems like making an effort to help them even when they're not yet ready to join a Player Settlement is a noble goal.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I expect we will give plenty of stuff away to people we may never see again. But we'll do that because cooperation and having friends is necessary. I won't do something that makes players think it's a viable strategy to hang around Thornkeep buying what they need from an unknown source. I feel they should know from day one that the only place to get stuff is to find it in the wilds or get it from another player.
We should begin as we mean to go on. Five extra, active, player-supported auction houses is unfair to the settlements that have focused on crafting in the understanding that it is a meaningful choice. Edit: they should also carry an automatic tax of the larger of 50% or 2 coppers per item.
Edit: TLDR: NPC auction houses should be expensive ghost towns.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
I feel they should know from day one that the only place to get stuff is to find it in the wilds or get it from another player.
I want to be exquisitely clear that I am in no way suggesting that you should not do what you want to do. But I think you're wrong that new players "should" know that, since it's not true to the vision of the game. Ryan has very consistently described a process where players go out adventuring, come back and sell their stuff on the Auction House, and use that same Auction House to buy upgraded gear. That's the intended process, not some aberration.
Five extra, active, player-supported auction houses is unfair to the settlements that have focused on crafting in the understanding that it is a meaningful choice. Edit: they should also carry an automatic tax of the larger of 50% or 2 coppers per item.
Edit: TLDR: NPC auction houses should be expensive ghost towns.
Again, to be exquisitely clear, it's perfectly fine for you to hold that opinion and act on it, and even try to persuade others to agree with you. But you'll need to do more than simply assert it; you'll need to make persuasive arguments that actually address the expectations that have already been set.
NPC Settlement Auction Houses should be perfectly viable for low-end gear. There are already plans in place to make them unsuitable for higher-end gear, as part of a fairly extensive design that encourages new players to strike out from the NPC Settlements once they've had some time to absorb the game mechanics in relative safety.
Making NPC Settlement Auction Houses viable for starter gear - including up to Tier 1 +2 gear - seems to me like it would give those new players a sense that the game's economy is working. That seems to me like it would create a strong positive impression, and encourage them to stick around.
Caldeathe Baequiannia Goblin Squad Member |
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:I feel they should know from day one that the only place to get stuff is to find it in the wilds or get it from another player.I want to be exquisitely clear that I am in no way suggesting that you should not do what you want to do. But I think you're wrong that new players "should" know that, since it's not true to the vision of the game. Ryan has very consistently described a process where players go out adventuring, come back and sell their stuff on the Auction House, and use that same Auction House to buy upgraded gear. That's the intended process, not some aberration.
Incorrect.
A total of three starter settlements, spread across the entire open enrollment map (far more than twice as much land as we have now), was the stated vision. Five starter settlements on the EE map is precisely an aberration from the stated vision (because of server stability issues).
For the stated vision of the game to be true, all but Thornkeep and a replacement in the south west, should be eliminated, as soon as possible. Making them seem like a good place to hang around is encouraging entrenchment of that aberration.
Twelve crafting settlements is already more than we need. Seventeen is unsupportable.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
A "vision" is typically less concerned with precise details and more concerned with the general way things function.
The vision for Pathfinder Online is that new players will start out in NPC Settlements where they will spend their first several weeks learning the game in relative safety. While there, they will go out adventuring, killing things and harvesting resource nodes, then return to town to sell those things on the Auction House and use the money they make to buy upgraded gear. At some point - and this will vary widely for different players - they will begin to feel that they could accomplish more by leaving the NPC Settlement and joining a Player Settlement.
Sspitfire's suggestion was not to support seventeen Auction Houses. It was to support the NPC Settlements where new players would actually be starting.
Merry Christmas, Cal.
Ravenlute Goblin Squad Member |
Just remove auction houses from NPC starter settlements. People naturally migrate to locations with easy access to banks and auction houses which would end up being player settlements (aside from Thornkeep). The NPC starter settlements would still have a function to bank items and train a little bit allowing newbies to learn the game.
Then after server stability is worked out the NPC starter settlements can be purged from the River Kingdoms and *all will rejoice.
*'all' is subject to change.
Ravenlute Goblin Squad Member |
TEO Alexander Damocles Goblin Squad Member |
Regardless of if it's good for the game, newbie settlements will be a market, which will attract goods. New players will likely be dying a lot as they learn the game, which means a fairly high turnover of goods. Plus, the early levels of attack skills leads to a demand of T1 +1 etc goods. Players will want the extra attack power, as it pushes the little pleasure centers of our brain.
I fully expect the longer term starter settlements to have a decent supply of low end gear at all times, simply because it will sell.
sspitfire1 |
A "vision" is typically less concerned with precise details and more concerned with the general way things function.
The vision for Pathfinder Online is that new players will start out in NPC Settlements where they will spend their first several weeks learning the game in relative safety. While there, they will go out adventuring, killing things and harvesting resource nodes, then return to town to sell those things on the Auction House and use the money they make to buy upgraded gear. At some point - and this will vary widely for different players - they will begin to feel that they could accomplish more by leaving the NPC Settlement and joining a Player Settlement.
Sspitfire's suggestion was not to support seventeen Auction Houses. It was to support the NPC Settlements where new players would actually be starting.
Merry Christmas, Cal.
Admittedly, though, Cal has kinda convinced me to abandon the Starter Settlements to their own devices, and let new players learn how to find their way in the world *outside* a starter town.
Moreover, if those of us more dedicated, in-the-know players don't do anything to stock the starter settlements, it will help push new players to cooperate more in finding the gear they want, breaking any tendencies for isolation and solo play early on.
Sometimes helping is actually hurting, and I wonder if my intentions in the OP fall under that category.
Edit: Also, the starter settlements are kinda unfair competition for the player settlements that have Auction Houses. The player settlements have lots to offer still to their crafters; but players are going to go to Rathglen if it is 10 minutes closer.
Thod Goblin Squad Member |
I think Cal and sspitfire are not necessarily that far apart.
a) Starter players need help
b) Starter players need to figure out how to fend for themselves
There is no one fits all solution or a single best option. It feels like a parent who educates his/her children.
I'm critical of the 1 copper listing as I see it distorting the market and doing a disservice. 5 copper, 10 copper - maybe that is less an issue.
I also see it positive if settlements nearby hand out starter gear - but only if they also help players and not regard them as sheep to fill their settlement.
Guides like the one from sspitfire are great and should do add to help the new players.
There are advantages and disadvantages for either approach. AH is open 24/7. AH can't give personal help.
Players aren't around 24/7 - but they can give individual help.
AH might run out if someone less scroupolos just buys 100 starter hear for 100 copper - players have this much better under control and won't trade 100 starter gear to the same charater.
In the end I think both sspitfire and cal want to help starters. So work together is all I can say.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
I expect some enterprising folks will still try to make a buck selling Tier 1 +2 gear in the NPC Settlement Auction Houses, and although I have no intention of doing it myself, I don't think it's something that needs to be discouraged.
Personally, I'll be making my way to Phaeros the instant I log in - as soon as I grab a free wand and buy a few Feats.
<Kabal> Daeglin Goblin Squad Member |
While I'm sure I haven't thought through all the ramifications, my gut feeling is against AHs in starter settlements. In regards to equipping new players, noble intentions are great, but the reality of people playing the economic game means any offering at a "discount" to the normal price for newbies will be bought out by the moguls-to-be. An open market won't do things for "nice" and a closed market might as well have vendors selling gear (which I don't want!).
<Tavernhold> Locke Goblin Squad Member |
We should begin as we mean to go on. Five extra, active, player-supported auction houses is unfair to the settlements that have focused on crafting in the understanding that it is a meaningful choice. Edit: they should also carry an automatic tax of the larger of 50% or 2 coppers per item.
With limited resources to place items in the market, I am only be able to to list things for 1 or 2 cp. The 1% listing fee for gathers/refiners basically forces me to to trades "face-to-face" with other characters. I have several hundred raw resources in three different banks. I can not sell anything for more than 1 cp. It all comes back into my inventory, typically when I am in the wilds and suddenly have 175% encumbrance.
ITEMS RETURNED FROM AUCTION AND ITEM COMPLETING PRODUCTION SHOULD GO TO THE BANK, not to the characters inventory in the wild!!
[buying] I go to the auction house and little idea how to find what I need. I can not search for lesser vital, I have to search for each raw gem. I now produce crystals that my iconographer needs, not what any market needs.
Ravenlute Goblin Squad Member |
Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V Goblin Squad Member |
<Tavernhold> Locke Goblin Squad Member |