Summoner VS Gunslinger


Advice


Hello. I am currently in the Skull and Shackles campaign and we are at level 12.

I want to point out that our captain is a very lazy gunslinger. Only coming out to do combat. Now that really is not a problem, we give him crap about it and everything else is all in good fun. But constantly points out that we have to do what we are told or he could kill our characters in a single round. His entire character build is around damage. Having a dex based gunslinger with touch AC attacks and a ludicrous initiative he can deal out the punishment. Against the party he would die but one on one I do not think any of us stand a chance, except maybe the barbarian due to her also insane initiative.

My summoner is the support, battlefield control, and part time buffer of the group while my Eidolon Leroy is the tank. I have beafed him up to large and given him some amazing items do to an insanely successful height we pulled off. My question is can a summoner beat a gunslinger. He has the damage to take my summoner down in the first round. On the high end if he hits with all attacks he do upwards of like 350 plus damage in a single round. And given that it is touch AC he cannot miss.

I am not trying to pick a fight. The other player and I get along great but we tend to play our characters all the way. Our pirates are greedy, powerful, prideful bastards and neither will take to much shit from the other. Is there any way for a summoner to beat a gunslinger without dieing in the first round? Can they even compete?


A summoner can beat a gunslinger.

What, you want more? Okay. First off touch AC can TOTALLY miss. Total cover means he just doesn't hit, and cover + deflection + dex + whatever gets its highest on highly defensive squishy casters.

Second, at level 12 it's really hard for a gunslinger to be running 350 DPR, in fact I can bet he's cheating, ignoring errata, or otherwise boosted and have a decent chance of being right.

Third, Battlefield control. Leroy can grapple the gunslinger and that's it, gunslinger won't be packing the kind of strength to win a grapple and with max escape artist he only has even chances of slipping free (which takes a standard action, no attack for you). While we're at it, sundering or disarming his overly-magicked gun or throwing down a Mad Monkeys or peppering him with big nasty summoned critters because Leroy is having some "me time" on his home plane.

"But 350 damaaaage" you say. Yeah, that's higher-level stuff for ya. If he wins initiative, starts out within range/burns enough grit to deadeye the whole 20-odd attacks he's making then he wins. If he fails, you turtle behind a wall he can't shoot you through and a horde of hound archons pop in, hop over, and tear him to shreds. Or Leroy just eats him. Or he gets thrown in the water. Or anyone with the spell drops a damp powder on him.

It's Rocket-tag.

With (I presume) a +16 in reflex, he is unlikely to lose his gun to a grease spell, but having to make that save every round will be amusing.

Shadow Lodge

blind him, make his guns wet, paralize him

Fog compltetely destroy gunslingers too

summon multiple creature, make them all invisible, gangbang him

grapple him

if all elsa fails...you know, eidolons can also be gunslingers if they want

Other interesting trick is disarming him, a single grease spell makes him drop his weapon or else catch him when he has his gear out. Heck if you throw him on the sea he is pretty screwed gunpowder does not work when its wet.

so at the end you dont need initiative get a surprise round and you win


Yeah, if you make the first move, you're a lot more dangerous. Most of your moves can disable him in a standard action.

I mean, you might need prep time, he needs the prep time of having/making his ammunition, but that's assumed for this kind of ambush crap.

And I'm pretty sure he's cheating. The damage-twinked pistolero with double-barreled pistols was maxing around 250, and was basically irrelevant if he was more than 25 feet away from the target at the start of the round.


These things are difficult to judge without seeing actual builds and playstyles, but generally in higher level PvP whoever goes first wins if neither of you are prepared.

Also, ask your DM to do a build check, posting them online if he isn't that experienced. 350 DPS at level 12 probably means the gunslinger is cheating (ignoring weapon cord errata is the most likely cheat).

Regardless, does he have see invisibility active? If not, and if you get the time to pre-buff, you can very easily defeat him. Put invis on you and the eidolon, walk up next to him and grapple/beatdown.

There are multiple other spells on your spell list which completely shut him down 1v1 as long as you get the chance to pull them off:

1) Invis as discussed

2) Wind wall completely shuts him down. Utterly.

3) Displacement halves his damage output against you. Combined with greater invisibility and he is looking at a 75% miss chance if i'm reading it correctly. Combine again with stoneskin or prot. from arrows and he can barely scratch you even if he can find your square.

4) If he has a weak save or low CMD, any debuff targetting that save will wreck him: Black tentacles, Glitterdust, Magic Jar etc etc.

If you have none of those spells... you have probably been making some bad decisions. However, you said you are buffing/control so I'm sure you do. You can always buy some potions and scrolls to pick up what you don't have.

Really, it comes down to preparation. If you have your buffs up or get a suprise round, he will almost certainly lose. Ditto the reverse.

*edit*

Oh and, if he has no method of moving and full attacking in one round, standing outside of his first range increment drastically reduces his damage output. This alone may be enough to win you the fight.

*double edit*

Nevermind, he can use deadeye deed even if he is a pistolero by this level. It is NOT SAFE past his first range increment as long as he has the grit. Note that if he has two guns he will have to spend the grit twice. Start the battle far enough away and he may not have enough grit to perform this, which would nullify his initiative advantage somewhat.


Thank you all. That helps tremendously. And you are correct with Leroy as he is he can kill the gunslinger no problem. It just comes down to who goes first as usuaul. If I prebuff it would not be an issue but that is assuming I am prepared if so no problem otherwise he probably gets. Great suggestion on the invisibility and cover ideas. Stone wall would be great cover and hungry pit just makes him have a terrible day. Thought grease would of been pointless but a one is a one.

He does not have see ivisibility but he does have seeking which nullifies displacement. I will just have to be prepared and make my character paranoid. Some type of automatic spell to protect me from bullets or something. I feel better a lot more options then just "who goes first"


The final answer here, is that at higher levels, he who goes first shall win. At least in 1 on 1 combat. At level 12 most characters will have maybe 100 - 150 hp. It's very easy to deal that kind of damage from either side and kill the other.

If you want to take him out you need to catch him unaware or be able to go first.

Also, wind wall doesn't completely shut him down. It only gives a 20% miss chance because bullets are not arrows or bolts.


Claxon wrote:


Also, wind wall doesn't completely shut him down. It only gives a 20% miss chance because bullets are not arrows or bolts.

30% actually, but good pickup. I was reading the words of power text. Invisibility is a safer bet on all counts then.


My bad, I was working from memory. I just knew it wasn't a complete miss chance.

I think it probably should be, but it isn't.


FunViolence wrote:

Hello. I am currently in the Skull and Shackles campaign and we are at level 12.

I want to point out that our captain is a very lazy gunslinger. Only coming out to do combat. Now that really is not a problem, we give him crap about it and everything else is all in good fun. But constantly points out that we have to do what we are told or he could kill our characters in a single round. His entire character build is around damage. Having a dex based gunslinger with touch AC attacks and a ludicrous initiative he can deal out the punishment. Against the party he would die but one on one I do not think any of us stand a chance, except maybe the barbarian due to her also insane initiative.

My summoner is the support, battlefield control, and part time buffer of the group while my Eidolon Leroy is the tank. I have beafed him up to large and given him some amazing items do to an insanely successful height we pulled off. My question is can a summoner beat a gunslinger. He has the damage to take my summoner down in the first round. On the high end if he hits with all attacks he do upwards of like 350 plus damage in a single round. And given that it is touch AC he cannot miss.

I am not trying to pick a fight. The other player and I get along great but we tend to play our characters all the way. Our pirates are greedy, powerful, prideful bastards and neither will take to much s#*@ from the other. Is there any way for a summoner to beat a gunslinger without dieing in the first round? Can they even compete?

I assume his intimidate is also very high? If not, he should not be able to get away with it.

Claxon wrote:

The final answer here, is that at higher levels, he who goes first shall win. At least in 1 on 1 combat. At level 12 most characters will have maybe 100 - 150 hp. It's very easy to deal that kind of damage from either side and kill the other.

If you want to take him out you need to catch him unaware or be able to go first.

Also, wind wall doesn't completely shut him down. It only gives a 20% miss chance because bullets are not arrows or bolts.

Has he got a way to act in the surprise round? The moment your character has decided "enough is enough", there will be surprise round in combat, your character probably does not challange him to a nice and "fair" duel (for which he is maximised).

Surprise round: Invisibility on yourself. He requires a perception check of 20+your stealth roll to even been able to perceive you.
T1: Hopefully his target will be your eidolon due to not perceiving you. It gets killed.
Summon 1d3+1 Ankylosaurus next to him (superior summons). Daze him, and have dazing attack of opportunities when he will try to shoot or move.
Repeat until satisfied. (If he gets close to water, a giant octopus is even better, 8 grab attacks from water)

Silver Crusade

Unless he has clustered shot DR is the bane of any Gunslinger.


I favor summoning 1-3 large air elementals next to him (or 1-3 huge ones with superior summoning). Combat reflexes + reach = dead gunslinger or gunslinger who has to move and cannot full attack unless he sunk 3 feats into deft shootist, which requires extra feats or doing inferior damage.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Unless he has clustered shot DR is the bane of any Gunslinger.

deadshot works pretty well against DR I've found.


If both combatants are aware of each it's not usually a situation in which a surprise round is applicable.

Which is to say, if the gunslinger knows you are there it will always go to initiative and whoever goes first is going to win. In order to guarantee that you win you must take him by surprise.

Pathfinder is rocket tag. He who goes first wins. Except melee. Melee never wins.


Claxon wrote:

If both combatants are aware of each it's not usually a situation in which a surprise round is applicable.

Which is to say, if the gunslinger knows you are there it will always go to initiative and whoever goes first is going to win. In order to guarantee that you win you must take him by surprise.

Pathfinder is rocket tag. He who goes first wins. Except melee. Melee never wins.

I would think that "being aware" is for up interpretation. The Gunslinger might not be aware that the summoner will attack him. No? He's aware of him, but doesn't realize the summoner is hostile.

Either way, I would make sure to start being out of range for the touch attack for AC to work.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Summoner VS Gunslinger All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice