Greater Sunder after the armor is destroyed


Rules Questions


Good Evening Fellow Gamers,
I have a question regarding greater sunder. Damage done in excess of the armor's hit points is dealt to the character.

What if the armor has already been destroyed, but it is easier to hit with Greater Sunder (CMD is lower than the armor class)) how would that work?

Say a character's CMD is 24. Their armor is 28 (even after the armor has been destroyed) due to natural armor and magical bonuses. Could you continue using 'greater sunder' to damage them?

Part of me sees it as an exploit, but part of me thinks that if you travel that far down the Sunder/Improved Sunder/Greater Sunder rabbit hole, you should get some benefit, since you've probably been ruining a fair bit of the opponent's gear.

Very Respectfully,
--Bacon


No, because the feat says "You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item." People aren't items. Now if, by chance, you were fighting a construct or robot, then sure, I'd allow it.


Erm, you did get a benefit from the sunder chain, your foe has no armour!

Once the armour is destroyed, you either sunder a different item or do something else.


Quote from Greater Sunder "Whenever you sunder to destroy a weapon, shield, or suit of armor..."

Once it's broken you are no longer "sundering TO destroy" since it's already destroyed.


Makes sense.

I just think it will be funny that it will be harder to deal damage after the armor is sundered.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Sunder their weapon or shields next.


After their armor is destroyed, their AC should drop further as well, so you've got that going for you. The reason the Sunder feats give you a bonus is because you are training to leverage an opponent's fighting habits against them. They want to take a hit in the armor rather than in the fleshy bits, so they'll usually try to move in such a way that the armor absorbs the hit. But you can use that to your advantage because you're not trying to hit them per-say, but rather damage their armor. But once their armor is destroyed, their movements are going to change. They are no longer trying to take hits the same way they would while wearing armor so your advantage is lost, though traded for a different advantage that, now, they are armorless and nothing but fleshy bits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Better_with_Bacon wrote:

Makes sense.

I just think it will be funny that it will be harder to deal damage after the armor is sundered.

How could it be? Your foe no longer gets the AC bonus of the item you just destroyed. They should be easier to hit.


sunder their shirt

sunder their undershirt

sunder their waistcoat

sunder their necklace

sunder their hat

sunder their shoes

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Only sundering armor, shield or weapon allow the damage pass through.

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Better_with_Bacon wrote:

Makes sense.

I just think it will be funny that it will be harder to deal damage after the armor is sundered.

How could it be? Your foe no longer gets the AC bonus of the item you just destroyed. They should be easier to hit.

Easier to hit their AC then before it got sundered, but not necessarily easier to hit than their CMD.

Something with a high AC from other things, wearing leather armor originally, especially when factoring in the bonuses to Sunder CMB, might be easier to hit their CMD with a Sunder than their AC with an attack. There are many non-armor things that can add to AC but not CMD, like Natural Armor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're that hooked up on CMD as your target, go for a grapple and PIN them to death.

Grand Lodge

Can you sunder an improvised weapon?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can you sunder an improvised weapon?

Ask the GM. If you ask me, if they used it as a weapon the last round or have it readied as a weapon now YES.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can you sunder an improvised weapon?

The answer to this is an obvious yes. It's being wielded as a weapon and it has a given hardness and hit points.

Grand Lodge

What if you believe they are going to use it as a weapon, or simply want to prevent them from having the chance?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
What if you believe they are going to use it as a weapon, or simply want to prevent them from having the chance?

Ask the GM. But I think the RAW and my answer is No.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
What if you believe they are going to use it as a weapon, or simply want to prevent them from having the chance?

What is the point of your question? If the question is can a wielded item be sunderd even if it's not normally a weapon, the answer is YES.

Grand Lodge

Greater Sunder might not apply to improvised weapons, but I am very sure that one can sunder anything on creature.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Greater Sunder might not apply to improvised weapons, but I am very sure that one can sunder anything on creature.

His point seemed to be if he can walk a GM into "I think he might use his Boots of Speed as a kick weapon, so I want to Sunder his improvised Boots of Speed to do damage to him" before his GM realizes what he is doing.

At least that is what I thought when he first asked about Improvised.

Grand Lodge

So, the Monk of the Empty Hand is basically immune to this feat?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, the Monk of the Empty Hand is basically immune to this feat?

Yes.

Grand Lodge

Also, sundering the Combat Scabbard(not Sharpened) would not activate this feat?

What about ammunition, or Alchemical Weapons?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Immune to the "excess damage goes to the NPC" part yes.
You still get the +2 bonus to Sunder.

There is RAW and there is "what would be cool", so my advice is find a GM who isn't worried about looking stuff up and more interested in "what is cool". Then always play with them! Good times for all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:


Immune to the "excess damage goes to the NPC" part yes.
You still get the +2 bonus to Sunder.

And what exactly are you going to sunder on a monk using nothing but unarmed strike?

Amulets, rings, etc, are corner cases at best.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Greater Trip might be useless against untrip-able targets too.

Does ever feat need to be useful in ever corner case?


I guess the right thing to do would be to apply the pertinent AC bonuses depending on what you are sundering.

Sunder Armor would have to get through the shield first, so the Shield bonus would apply to the CMD.

After breaking the armor, see if that attack was high enough to pass though his AC to damage him, so now add Shield and Natural Armor the the CMD and remove any bonuses specific to sunder to the attack.

Sunder Shield would use regular CMD, since you don't have to get through anything to hit it.

If the sunder breaks the shield, now see if that attack, without the bonus to sunder, would be high enough to get his regular AC with the shield. (With this attack, you actualy had to cleave through his whole defense, including his shield to damage him, but was able to break the shield in the process.)

I imagine that, if you are fighting a opponent who has sword and shield, he'll be constantly putting his shield in your way, making it harder for you to target his weapon, so I think the shield AC would apply in the case of sunder weapon.

If you manage to break the weapon, see if that attack was good enough to get though his whole AC, with shield, armor and natural armor, without the bonuses to sunder.

Scarab Sages

A little iffy why sundering the armor makes it easier to hit the enemy than just hitting them without armor. Wizard, perhaps?

Anyway, you can greater sunder only works on weapons, armor or shields "wielded" by the opponent. They aren't just things worn by the opponent, but actively being wielded. Improvised weapons are still weapons.

With regards to sundering natural attacks and unarmed strikes, that's up to the DM. Personally, I think that one should be handled by the dirty trick combat maneuver, not sunder.

Grand Lodge

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
A little iffy why sundering the armor makes it easier to hit the enemy than just hitting them without armor. Wizard, perhaps?

No, but there are times when, even without armor, someone's AC is higher than their CMD.

Consider a high CR Dragon. Would you rather attack against their normal AC or their normal Touch AC?

Similarly, would you rather attack something that is AC 30 without armor, or Sunder their destroyed armor against their CMD of 26? Remember that there are a lot of things that add to AC, but do not add to CMD. Natural Armor, for example.


kinevon wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
A little iffy why sundering the armor makes it easier to hit the enemy than just hitting them without armor. Wizard, perhaps?

No, but there are times when, even without armor, someone's AC is higher than their CMD.

Consider a high CR Dragon. Would you rather attack against their normal AC or their normal Touch AC?

Similarly, would you rather attack something that is AC 30 without armor, or Sunder their destroyed armor against their CMD of 26? Remember that there are a lot of things that add to AC, but do not add to CMD. Natural Armor, for example.

Great Wyrm Red Dragon (CR 22) has a CMD of 61. AC of 39. I'll stick to the regular attack roll.

"Oh, but Scythia, dragons don't wear armour."

Thanatotic Titans (CR 22) do. CMD 60, AC 38

CMD generally scales faster than AC in my experience. Especially if you've already destroyed their armour.

Grand Lodge

Combine this with Ice Armor.

No Save, they gain a suit of armor made out of ice, and you sunder it.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Combine this with Ice Armor.

No Save, they gain a suit of armor made out of ice, and you sunder it.

How are you going to convince them to put it on?


fretgod99 wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Combine this with Ice Armor.

No Save, they gain a suit of armor made out of ice, and you sunder it.

How are you going to convince them to put it on?

Well, if they're immersed in water and you have 1 minutes to cast it, they don't have to.

Grand Lodge

Sorry, infused Instant Armor, and an Injection Spear.

Wrong spell.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Sorry, infused Instant Armor, and an Injection Spear.

This is also a great anti-druid technique.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Sorry, infused Instant Armor, and an Injection Spear.

Wrong spell.

Can Alchemists learn Instant Armor? I mean, I know what you're going for and I'm being difficult for the lulz, but I'm actually curious about this one. It's a Cleric/Paladin spell and not on their Formulae list, so far as I'm aware.

I suppose there's no reason a GM couldn't let them independently research it if they wanted.

*shrug*


Imbicatus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Sorry, infused Instant Armor, and an Injection Spear.

This is also a great anti-druid technique.

Seeing as it creates force armor and not metal armor, this does nothing bad against a druid unless I'm missing something.

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