How can a ninja learn Fiery Shuriken?


Rules Questions


Step 1
Open your book Ultimate Combat

Step 2
Get to page 229

Step 3
Notice that the ninja iconic character... is using the Fiery Shuriken spell.

How can this be achieved... regularly?

Has the ninja gotten a trick to learn spells? Is it a new Qinggong Monk power that the ninja can get access?

I'm asking something that doesn't require multiclassing.

Grand Lodge

The only thing I can think of is "Wand of Fiery Shuriken and UMD."

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jeff Merola wrote:
The only thing I can think of is "Wand of Fiery Shuriken and UMD."

I've done this very thing many times.

Grand Lodge

Are you sure he isn't just using the ki charge ninja trick?

Grand Lodge

trollbill wrote:
Are you sure he isn't just using the ki charge ninja trick?

It's the picture directly below the Fiery Shuriken spell, so it's pretty obviously intended to be Fiery Shuriken.

That said, it could just be a case of someone going "Ninjas throw shurikens, right? We'll use the ninja to show off the spell." without thinking of how they could use it.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ninja/sorcerer/arcane trickster... Or through a magic item.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Are you sure he isn't just using the ki charge ninja trick?

It's the picture directly below the Fiery Shuriken spell, so it's pretty obviously intended to be Fiery Shuriken.

That said, it could just be a case of someone going "Ninjas throw shurikens, right? We'll use the ninja to show off the spell." without thinking of how they could use it.

Artists do sometimes go off beam, to the extent that what they draw isn't quite what was asked for.

Then again it could simply be a sorcerer in a ninja outfit.


Jeff Merola wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Are you sure he isn't just using the ki charge ninja trick?

It's the picture directly below the Fiery Shuriken spell, so it's pretty obviously intended to be Fiery Shuriken.

That said, it could just be a case of someone going "Ninjas throw shurikens, right? We'll use the ninja to show off the spell." without thinking of how they could use it.

This is what I suspect.

Also, note that Ninja-the-class and Ninja-the-concept are not the same thing ... and anybody can dress up in funky pajamas.

Sovereign Court

artistic liberty most likely, look at some npc in the npc codex to see a lot of that.


So basically... the best way would be to housemake an advanced ninja trick that allows the ninja to learn a spell as a spell-like ability, costing a number of ki points equal to the spell's level each time.


I question that as the best way ... but it is *a* way. Again, no reason an Arcane Trickster can't be considered a ninja in-game. Class is not concept, concept is not class.

Grand Lodge

I'd still consider the wand route the "best" way a single classed Ninja can get Fiery Shuriken.


Zhayne wrote:
I question that as the best way ... but it is *a* way. Again, no reason an Arcane Trickster can't be considered a ninja in-game. Class is not concept, concept is not class.

Save this means you have to give him other spells, witch may be counter-intuitive to your acual character design.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You could always learn the "minor eldritch magic" rogue trick. It gives you a lvl 2 spell as a SLA 3 times per day. It's suposedly reserved for the eldritch rider gilmen archetipe, but you could probably get your GM onboard with taking it anyway (or actualy take the archetype... personaly, I realy like it).


Jeff Merola wrote:
I'd still consider the wand route the "best" way a single classed Ninja can get Fiery Shuriken.

A wand gives you 3 shurikens (cl 5), which is not many. Then again, it is 3 ranged touch attacks. IF you manage to be in a position to trigger sneak attack from that, it is a good investment.


Efreeti wrote:
You could always learn the "minor eldritch magic" rogue trick. It gives you a lvl 2 spell as a SLA 3 times per day. It's suposedly reserved for the eldritch rider gilmen archetipe, but you could probably get your GM onboard with taking it anyway (or actualy take the archetype... personaly, I realy like it).

Twice A day isn't much, but the metmagic spell-like ability feats can make this hurt less.

Like, vanish -> quickened spell -> sneak attack up to 8 targets with a touch attack.


Errant Mercenary wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I'd still consider the wand route the "best" way a single classed Ninja can get Fiery Shuriken.
A wand gives you 3 shurikens (cl 5), which is not many. Then again, it is 3 ranged touch attacks. IF you manage to be in a position to trigger sneak attack from that, it is a good investment.

Problem is, you only gain one sneak attack per target.


I believe it's only one sneak attack per casting, against one target, when you're doing a 'volley' spell like this one.


icehawk333 wrote:


Problem is, you only gain one sneak attack per target.

"Each shuriken requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals 1d8 points of fire damage"

Even with this? That can't be right. (grumble rogues u-word grumble no nice things *goes into cave*)

EDIT: From Scorching Ray " Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage." So the wording is the same. Still just 1 sneak?

If so, WASTE OF GOLD.


Yep. I don't get that ruling, but it's true.

It was ruled that each spell only gets one sneak attack with it.

Possibly only one for the whole spell.

It is a waste of gold, and makes sure you have no use for cool things like that.


*Breaks wands*


*Breaks rouge/ninja*


I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.

Grand Lodge

Errant Mercenary wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I'd still consider the wand route the "best" way a single classed Ninja can get Fiery Shuriken.
A wand gives you 3 shurikens (cl 5), which is not many. Then again, it is 3 ranged touch attacks. IF you manage to be in a position to trigger sneak attack from that, it is a good investment.

Well, when the alternative is "homebrew something" I prefer to go with the first party solution, when the solution isn't too much worse than the homebrew version.


Zhayne wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.

First he needs to do the miracle of qualifying for sneak attack at range. ....oh god...the can...the worms, they are pouring out!


The only way you could get a sneak attack of all shuriken is if you shoot only one of them per round... but still, a sneak attack with a fiery shuriken equal to a good amount of pure fire damage.

So, to recap:
- get a wand and UDM the heck out of it
- multiclass
- houserule that you see fit...


Zhayne wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.

Pff. I can do so much worse.

Heavens oracle. Save or die. Ta-da.

Besides, the ninja can do close with shirikin as a full round.

You know, if they actually qualify for the range, and have the foe flat-footed.

Course, I'm surprised I haven't seen people complaining about horizon walkers if they think sneak attack dice are scary.


Errant Mercenary wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.
First he needs to do the miracle of qualifying for sneak attack at range. ....oh god...the can...the worms, they are pouring out!

Invisibility. Which can also come in a wand.


icehawk333 wrote:


Besides, the ninja can do close with shirikin as a full round.

Exactly. As a full round, not a standard, against standard AC, not touch, dealing weapon damage, not energy.


If you want "a Ninja-like character" that does that the best bet would probably be a Kensai Magus. It can take spells from the Wizard list, and is pretty Ninja-like.


Zhayne wrote:
Errant Mercenary wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.
First he needs to do the miracle of qualifying for sneak attack at range. ....oh god...the can...the worms, they are pouring out!
Invisibility. Which can also come in a wand.

That's 2 standard actions. If a ninja, a swift and a standard. The idea of casting this and then casting a shuriken off each round as a swift action is not bad (for when not casting the Vanish power). Again..qualifying for SA at range is very hard.

There is also a FAQ where invisibility only applies to the first attack from invisibility. We dont follow that at our table though.


If you throw all the shuriken at once, you'd get invisibility on all of them. That's why volley spells only get one sneak, as opposed to consecutive individual attacks.

Oh, I forgot 'at his full attack bonus instead of iterative attack reductions' on my list above.


Zhayne wrote:
Errant Mercenary wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a 5th level rogue doing 3d8+9d6 damage with a single standard action.
First he needs to do the miracle of qualifying for sneak attack at range. ....oh god...the can...the worms, they are pouring out!
Invisibility. Which can also come in a wand.

That's two rounds of action then.

Compare-

Slumber witch - 1 round sleep, 1 round death.

Heavens oracle - AOE basically Death for most of the early game.

Necromancer clerics - I'm not going to explain this one.

Conjurer wizards- yep.

Ect...


Zhayne wrote:

If you throw all the shuriken at once, you'd get invisibility on all of them. That's why volley spells only get one sneak, as opposed to consecutive individual attacks.

Oh, I forgot 'at his full attack bonus instead of iterative attack reductions' on my list above.

Oh, no.

An instant death as two standard actions. If only there were more classes that can do that.
(Mages)

Or a good archer/gunslinger just ending someone with non-variable damage.


I agree it is powerful, and barring some freaks out there (slumber, heavens oracles), these things come at a resource cost. In this case, it'd be gold, which is the cheaper and most accessible resource, so perhaps it'd be too good.

However, in 2 rounds a Barbarian is going to be putting out a ***tonne more damage than this.

Another idea, to the OP, is to take the Eldritch Raider archetype (Gillmen) which allows you pick more advanced spells as talents (i believe up to 3rd level). In this case, you get it at your Rogue/class level.


Well, looks like i started discord once again, as I so often wind up doing.

Looks like my work here is done.


For reference:

Eldritch Raider:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-gillmen/eldrit ch-raider-rogue-gillmen

2nd level spells ADVANCED talent:
Minor Eldritch Magic (Sp): The eldritch raider gains the ability to cast a 2nd-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to her rogue level. The save DC for this spell is 12 + her Intelligence modifier. The eldritch raider must have an Intelligence of at least 12 to select this talent. The eldritch raider must have the major magic and minor magic rogue talents before choosing this talent.

3rd level spell ADVANCED talent:
Major Eldritch Magic (Sp): The eldritch raider gains the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to her rogue level. The save DC for this spell is 13 + her Intelligence modifier. The eldritch raider must have an Intelligence of at least 13 to select this talent. The eldritch raider must have the major magic, minor eldritch magic, and minor magic rogue talents before choosing this talent.

At a house game I wouldnt mind making the "minor eldritch magic" a normal talent to be honest.


Errant Mercenary wrote:

For reference:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

At a house game I wouldnt mind making the "minor eldritch magic" a normal talent to be honest.

I... don't see how this archetype, as well as most racial archetypes for that matter, couldn't be available to every race. Sure, gillmen have it, but upon closer read, nothing about it makes it exclusive to the race. Sure, some archetypes actually emphasize a race's traits and features, but if it doesn't, then it shouldn't be a problem using it differently.

That goes for the rogue talents as well. Unless you cannot use it normally, sure, knock yourself out by picking them for your human rogue or elven ninja.


100% With you here. When it comes to archetypes, rogue talents, alch discoveries, etc, race in my games is unimportant (ũnless for a compelling reason).
When i first read the archetype i got hyped up - Fireballs couple times a day for s rogue talent! Or G Invis! But then i saw the Advanced requirement.
It takes 3 rogue talents to get it, limiting Your build inmensely, earliest being Level 6 (wizards cast 3rd lvl at 5). So so. Then again ninja g invis trick is lvl 10 (but needs Investment of only one talent, incrediby useful too.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / How can a ninja learn Fiery Shuriken? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.