AC 11 at level 11 - Should I embrace the squishiness?


Advice

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I open this thread to general comments about AC at high levels, along with specific advice about my wrecker-cursed life oracle.

So, I'm building a life oracle at level 11, and I'm seriously considering just going without armor, ring of protection, or any of that stuff and just sitting at AC 11. My reasoning being, I could invest a whole lot of resources into getting a reasonable AC but I'd probably still be hit by anything that isn't an iterative, or I could just invest elsewhere and embrace the squishy.

Mitigating factors:
1) I'll be channeling at 10d6, increasing by +1d6 every three out of four levels (by using the elf FCB and a phylactery.) Combine that with swift action Cure Critical Wounds and the ability to channel as a move action, and I can easily heal myself for ~100 HP on my turn.
2) Spirit Boost can give me temp hit points as well.
3) At level 15 the Wrecker curse will have a good chance of turning any weapons that hit me into dust, so I won't have to worry about iteratives as much.
4) The character is built to avoid combat as much as possible (by using Authoritative Vestments, Calm Emotions, general diplomacy, etc.) and then use save-or-suck spells to shut down the enemies if things do get heated.

Difficulties:
1) I'll be the healer, so I may be the primary target for intelligent enemies.
2) Con won't be great, maybe 12 Con.

What do you think, is it suicidal to go for no AC, even with massive healing powers?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rumpin --

You know from my posts that I'm not an optimizer. I prefer fun characters over super powerful ones.

That said... With an AC of 11 everything can hit you. I don't have your build in front of me, but I am assuming that you dumped strength and thus can't wear armor.

Your oracle will have a bad ass charisma. Are you investing in UMD? Can you buy a wand of shield or mage armor that you or another can cast on yourself? Or perhaps you can throw in an armor enchanted harakami. If it is "burdenless" it could up your carrying capacity, even with low strength!

The "sanctuary" spell might help you quite a bit. If you are going with such a low AC and are primarily the healer, use it.

I guess what I am saying is that you cannot heal people if you die. I'd at least try to get the AC up so that I cannot be killed by goblins and such. Even with awesome healing powers, you probably don't have the Paladin's lay on hands to swift action heal yourself.

Let's see if we can come up with an alternate plan to get the AC up without using too much in the way of resources!

Hmm

Liberty's Edge

You should at least invest in a Cloak of Displacement (or the Minor form thereof) to get that miss chance. Or, assuming you don't do any "attacks", some kind of invisibility item/spell.

I agree that once AC gets below a certain point it seems silly to bother investing too much into it, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't invest in *defense*, it just means no *AC*. Unfortunately most of the non-AC defense spells are not on the cleric/oracle list. And the item forms of those spells are expensive. This means AC is still your best bet.

Non-AC Spells (on cleric/oracle list):
* Aid (1d8+CL temp HP)
* Sanctuary (seriously, this will save you if you don't attack)
* Entropic Shield (miss chance against ranged)
* Angelic Aspect (DR and resistances)
* Righteous Might (DR)

Some non-AC defense items:
* Cloak of Displacement (and Minor)
* Anything that boost Con. (e.g. a belt)
* Anything that grants temp HP (e.g. Emerald Ellipsoid, but you're better off with Aid most likely).
* Ways to negate critical (Fortification, Bracelet of Second Chances)
* Adamantine armor.

PS: With no real AC, EVERYTHING hits you, even if it uses fighting defensively and combat expertise *and* power attack, or if it's a lvl 1 summon, etc. So you should still invest in the super cheap options, like wearing whatever +1 armor you can.


RumpinRufus wrote:

My reasoning being, I could invest a whole lot of resources into getting a reasonable AC but I'd probably still be hit by anything that isn't an iterative, or I could just invest elsewhere and embrace the squishy.

...

What do you think, is it suicidal to go for no AC, even with massive healing powers?

I would say you can minimize AC safely, if you take other measures, but totally disregarding isn't an ideal idea.

There will come a point when the tiny return you get by not using them in comparison to your overall WBL won't get you as much as their added safety would so don't tank it altogether.

For example, use +1 items (armor, shields, rings, amulets) when you could (most players of your class/level would) be affording +2 or 3's is probably okay. Using none is probably going to fail to pay off in the long run.

"but I'd probably still be hit by anything that isn't an iterative"
This isn't necessarily true. While it probably holds true vs. the big (melee) bads anyone who isn't a front line combat build should fair poorly by that hit/AC comparison and be needing tricks other than AC, that's good game balance and deliberate. In those fights your combat characters should be keeping those things off you (and distracted by their DPS or special abilities)with smart battlefield positioning and good use of battlefield control spells and abilities.

Your AC as a support character comes in handy when it's lots of mooks, those times your combat PCs can't possibly keep things off you the whole fight. Even 2 or 3 small mooks on you can eat through mirror images or negate the advantage of displacement effects quick and you'll be glad you had some AC too. Those are the foes most likely to be on you uninterrupted as well, when your meat shields are tied up by something bigger or sheer numbers.

You said L11, let's look at a theoretical CR12 encounter.
Two Frost Giants (CR 9 each)
Eight Ogre followers (CR 9 together IIRC)

Yes the Frost Giants are going to auto hit you but your melee characers and/or summons should be keeping them busy. Those Ogres, who are likely to have at least two or more break free to come for you, just too many for 2-3 meleers in a standard party to completely tie up, are only sporting a +7 to hit. The trivial cost at L11 it would take you to get say an AC of 16 over an AC of 11 is translating to a 25% reduced chance of being hit by then. A mere AC of 18 and you'd have dropped them into the 50/50% hit chance range. That might be the time you need for your more fighty characters to wrap up the rest and get to you, and can be enough to keep you casting despite being hit at.


Unless your health is high enough to be able to withstand 4 or 5 hits per turn you would be foolish to do this.... As is. Now if you are bound and determined to go this route the you MUST get endurance and diehard feats so that you can MAYBE survive long enough to heal yourself, but I doubt it.

A true embrace of having crappy AC would be to go cleric based envoy of balance prestige class with said diehard and endurance feats. This allows to you to channel twice in the same round while channeling positive and negative energy. Add in phylacteries and possibly holy vindicator levels and you have a strong build.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How much is too much?

11th WBL from the PRD is 82,000 gp
Is around 1/4 to defense too much?

05000 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. (also reduce 1 crit/day to normal hit.) +1 Luck bonus to AC.
04157 +2 Heavy Shield. +4 to AC.
02000 +1 Ring of Protection.
02000 +1 Amulet of Natural Armor.
08195 +2 Four-mirror Mithral armor. +8 to AC.
=====
21352 or 26% of WBL.

AC: 10+1+4+1+1+8=25 AC. Doesn't include dex or other possible buffs.

Going by the monster stats by CR chart.
A CR 11 creature has an average attack value of +16.5 for 43.5 average damage. Which means we have about 45% damage mitigation. And you are not spending any actions for this.

It's possible to get higher AC, but I assumed you didn't want to lose mobility or spend a feat on heavy armor.

Drop the AC to 22 (Shield +1 and Armor +0) and you are looking at about 30% mitigation for 15.1k or 1/5 of your wealth.

24,000 gp for a cloak of displacement is probably too much to add on top of that.

Oh and it looks like a home game so pick up the Divine Protection feat. +Cha to all saves. Not legal in Society Play. Add an item that boosts your saves and they should be okay.

This is not optimized but it's okay.

EDIT: maths...

Dark Archive

It's pretty much Working As Intended when anything that isn't an iterative can hit you. If you've got much more AC than that, you've probable sacrificed waaaay too much trying to boost it. But there is a very, VERY distinct difference between that and "I haven't spent a dime on defending myself".

A +1 Breastplate, a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and a Ring of Protection +1 will give you 9 AC (bringing you to 19 AC at the minimum) and costs less than 10k.

Grand Lodge

As a healer, I would prefer to minimize attacking power.

Mithral/adamantine Full Plate
Big Heavy Shield
ALL the AC boosters you can find
Small size (I like gnome for this)

You could realistically push your AC up to the 30s

Basically just be the metal can in the back of the party which radiates positive energy.

Sovereign Court

As mentioned above, get items like cloak of displacement or other items that would grant you a miss chance. As an oracle, you also have decent spells to boost your defenses.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The jingasa also allows you to ignore crit damage, which helps you from getting one-shotted. I approve! Go for the most cost effective AC boost you can, and then let it go if you must.

Hmm


Build details for those that are interested:
(note: asterisk* marks things that are more likely to be changed. The general concept is a pacifist, who worships the setting's equivalent of Shelyn.)

Half-elf life oracle, wrecker curse
strength 8, dexterity 12, constitution 12, intelligence 14, wisdom 10, charisma 27 (17 + 2 racial + 2 level + 6 headband)
traits: Overwhelming Beauty, Elven Serenity
feats: Fast Learner (for elven and human FCBs), Selective Channel, Quick Channel, Clarifying Channel, Alignment Channel*, Divine Protection, Skill Focus (heal)*
revelations: Channel, Spirit Boost, Combat Healer, Lifesense
spells will focus on save-or-suck (Command, Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Sound Burst, Greater Command, Chains of Light)
gear (82K available):
Cha Headband +6 (36K)*, Mnemonic Vestment 2/day (10K), Mitre of the Hierophant (18K), Necklace Phylactery of Positive Channeling (11K), Handy Haversack (2K), Quick Runner's Shirt (1K), Authoritative Vestments (0.45K)


First, I'd like to thank everybody for some good suggestions.

The Sanctuary spell seems like a good option, especially if I have time to buff (or take Quicken Spell.)

Wand of Mage Armor is not a terrible idea, but I feel like if I do decide to get some AC I should just go ahead and get a +1 mithral breastplate. (I was originally under the impression that it would be perpetually broken from the wrecker curse, but the consensus seems to be that only held objects are broken.)

A jingasa would almost definitely be a good idea, but I already have a head slot item, so I'd have to add it to my mitre (which might be weird for flavor reasons.)

A Major Cloak of Displacement WOULD be great except 1) it's out of my price range and 2) the standard action to activate is brutal considering the cost. A Minor Cloak of Displacement is more reasonable, I just don't know if it's worth the cost.

A shield would be compromised by my wrecker curse, and be perpetually broken.

Conclusions: I kind of feel like I should go either with a Minor Cloak of Displacement, or get some actual AC. Sanctuary is a good choice if I have a chance to buff or I'm potentially going to be attacked by multiple enemies.


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I only came here becuase I thought the title said "squidishness".

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Icehawk -- What you do with octopus animal companion should stay between you and him.

Rumpin -- Do get some actual AC. The cloak isn't a bad idea either. Good luck with your Oracle!

Hmm


XD I didn't ever read the rest of the title.

I just clicked when I read what I thought was "squidishness"


How nice is your GM? If he is the type to go easy on you due to your build then try the 11. If your GM is not going to hold back I suggest upping your AC. Even if they only need a 5 on the die roll it is better than relying on a nat 1 to not get hit.


My GM is the type that will balance encounters to match the party, but he won't make out-of-character decisions for the baddies just to avoid killing a PC (especially if they are reasonably experienced.)

I have to say though, I am still considering going in with AC 11. If someone is in a position to full-attack me, I can move away - it'll provoke, but I can heal the damage from a single attack easily. If I'm afraid of getting grabbed, I can cast Freedom of Movement on myself. If I keep up Air Walk in general, fewer enemies will be able to reach me. The biggest hazard would be situations where my mobility is very limited, and situations where there are so many enemies that there's nowhere on the map that's more than a 5-foot-step away from reach.

edit: I should also mention I'll be taking Waves of Ecstasy at 14th level, which will stagger my enemies with no save (although it does allow SR.) Are there any other good staggering spells on the cleric/oracle list?


Just using quickened sanctuary (with a rod of lesser quicken) at the beginning of every encounter can save you a lot of trouble. Even if you don't win the initiative, no one will be able to full-attack you the first round of an encounter except archers. With your charisma score...the Will DC of sanctuary will be at least 19, and this is the kind of spell that can worth to be heightened. With some concealment spell (fog cloud, blur, etc.) you can be «tanky» even without any AC. I hope you will try this build.


I'm reconsidering how useful Sanctuary will be - my general plan for combat is to spam save-or-suck spells, and as soon as I go for the Hold Person or Chains of Light or Greater Command, it's going to break my Sanctuary effect. (In general I'm avoiding combat buffs as "making people better at killing things" isn't in the spirit of the character, and avoiding summons because "bringing in creatures to kill things" is even less in character.)

Would casting Chain of Perdition break the Sanctuary effect?


Mirror image + blink will make you survival just as good in melee as most fighters. Try get items with those spell or spell like abilities with them, you won't have to worry about AC as much.

Sovereign Court

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imo the minor cloak of displacement is better than the major one. Major lasts for 15 rounds a day vs all day for minor.


We had a Mystic Theurge with an AC of around 18 at 15th level in one recent campaign, and I'm not sure if his AC being lower would have really changed things much. Mirror Images were his primary defense, and anything which could see through them stood a chance of devastating him pretty quickly. By the late stages of the game he had Heal though, and that helped a lot. I guess your PC would get it next level.

If the wrecker doesn't wreck wands to the point where they can't be used then a wand of Mirror Image should give you as much chance to be missed against many enemies as all the AC you could buy. A familiar who can use wands and scrolls could also provide a lot of help by using stuff like Dimension Door to get you and party members out of tough spots. If you'd be open to making the character Human instead of Half-Elf the Focused Study racial trait is great for those interested in Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and pretty good in general.

Having a good initiative and being able to act during surprise rounds might be very useful.


Quickened stunning barrier or greater stunning barrier might be more useful than sanctuary if you're going to be breaking the rules of sanctuary all the time.


It also occurs to me that a decision to ignore AC doesn't need to be a decision to ignore armor or even shields. There are a lot of useful enchantments which can go into those magic item slots. Spell Storing armor filled with Frigid Touch can be a great way to stall full attacks, for instance.


Since you have quick channel already anyway, I would consider picking up the reactive healing feat. Immediate action channel to heal self only when dropped to 0 or fewer hp - just in case.


I would say that totally ignoring AC is probably a bad idea. Relying solely on being able to heal yourself is going to use up to many resources that party may need. Every channel or spell used to heal just yourself is one you cannot use to help other party members. Being a healer that is not healing others is not contributing to the party.

That does not mean you need to sink all your wealth into boosting your AC. Also due to your low CON you are going to be able to be outright killed, or taken out of the game without too much trouble. The lack of armor may also make you more of a target, because your enemies may mistake you for an arcane spell caster. You should have at least enough armor, and protective equipment to be able to deal with the minions of the BBEG. By dealing with them I am not talking about never being hit, but rather at least making them work to hit you. If the minions are hitting you on around 50% of the time or less you should be ok.

Being squishy is fine, being a soap bubble is not.


Some really fantastic suggestions here.

(Greater) Stunning Barrier seems great, not sure how I overlooked it before. If I understand it correctly, they must make a save every time they hit me?

Spell Storing armor with Frigid Touch is a fantastic idea as well. No-save staggered effect is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for! It's looking like we'll have a wizard and possibly a druid who can charge me up.

The Reactive Healing feat is also a great one to consider. I'm feeling a little feat-starved (haven't even had room to take Improved Initiative, or any of the metamagic feats like Persistent, Piercing, or Quicken) but I guess I'll never be able to take those if I'm dead. Now, I just have to decide if I should give up Alignment Channel for one of these feats. (I have to be honest, going nova by forcing 30d6 of pure love into some demons at DC 26 (and 33d6 DC 28 next level) by using Quick Runner's Shirt and Quick Channel is tempting, but also we'll have characters who are actually built to do damage as well.)

edit: two quick questions about Frigid Touch: 1) even if they are immune to cold, they still become staggered, correct? 2) The Spell Storing property automatically imparts the touch attack with no roll, and therefore no chance of critical, correct?


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I'd focus on getting to AC 0 so you can say "My AC is second edition good."


It's not just getting hit.

With an 11 AC, EVERY crit will confirm. This will eventually kill you, as many creatures, like a frost giant power attacking with a large greataxe, can take you from hero to zero in one hit.


If you aren't that worried about getting hit, but are worried about getting grabbed then focus on items that increase your CMD.
Ring of Protection (deflection)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (luck)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (insight)


I play a low AC wizard, but since he's an air elementalist his main defense is flight (to stay out of reach) and his cyclone ability (when critters can use ranged attacks on him). But when he has to expect melee, he depends on mirror image, blur, obscuring mist, and displacement to give the bad guys miss chances. Also, summoning monsters in to stay between you and the bad guys is another option.
So I would follow the lead of many others here and suggest maxing out UMD and getting yourself some wands.


RumpinRufus wrote:
edit: two quick questions about Frigid Touch: 1) even if they are immune to cold, they still become staggered, correct? 2) The Spell Storing property automatically imparts the touch attack with no roll, and therefore no chance of critical, correct?

1. I want to say that they'd ignore the Staggered effect as well, but I'm actually unable to find a rule on that one after checking. Perhaps it's in an odd spot and I'm missing it though.

2. Spell Storing Armor is... weird. And not well written. Consult with your GM, but I believe the standard is yes, no chance of miss or crit.


was looking at your build.

why the mitre of the hierophant?
why not simply go for something like living garments if your goal is the +competance to diplomacy?

that should save you 11k.

if it is a homegame, which i assume it is, you can even talk to your GM about making your authorative venstments living garments. which is both flavorfull, and practical, for when you dont want to be instantly recognised.

also get a lesser rod of extend. at lvl11, an extended circle of protection from evil will grant you +2 deflection bonus for 220mins, more than 3,5hours, and it will also benefit your allies next to you, and also shield both you and your allies from mindaffecting spells.

just with the +1 mithral breastplate and the prot from evil, you should already have 20ac.

since this is a homegame, see if you can talk to your DM about the war blessing feat. Specifically, since it states that you use either your mystery or domain class as your warpriest lvl, ask if you can use your cha instead of wis for the DC.
if he says ok, then go ahead and pick the charm blessing, and 2 times/day you will have a "sanctuary" with incredible scaling DC that only breaks on your target and not everyone when you take a hostile action.


The Mitre of the Hierophant is more for the Atonement and Commune abilities, rather than the Diplomacy buff.

The War Blessing feat is really interesting, I did not know about it. (My deity's domains are Charm, Community, Good, Healing, and Knowledge.) I do like the high-DC Sanctuary effect, especially because it only breaks against targets that I attack, and I really love the flavor of the ability as well. The parts I don't particularly like are the twice/day for 1 minute, the standard action activation, and the cost of a feat in a feat-starved build. It's definitely an interesting option, but I'm starting to have high hopes with the Greater Stunning Barrier and Spell-Storing Frigid Touch options. But if those are not doing the job, I'll definitely look at taking/retraining into War Blessing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I ran Siege of the Diamond City for a 12 or 13th level Monk that had an AC of 10. He managed to be one of the multiple melee stars. Why didn't he die?

Ring of blinking.


I believe that Spell Storing armor automatically "hits" the enemy with the stored spell. In our groups we've always played that an attack spell like Frigid Touch needs to inflict some actual damage on an enemy to cause a secondary effect like staggered. I'm not sure if that's 100% official, but I'd expect to run into it a lot either way.

Silver Crusade

Some methods of dealing with bad AC:

* Pile on the HP

* Get some DR. E.g. Invulnerable Armor gives DR5/Magic, costs 15K gp, and is +1 armor subject to further enhancement.

* Jingasa of the fortunate soldier cancels one critical hit per day. Don't use it on the first critical, save it for the dangerous one.

* Displacement. If the Cloak is too expensive, consider the Sipping Jacket approach.

* Use tactics that deny full attacks to your foe. This alone will considerably minimize your incoming damage.

* Sanctuary is lovely.

* Be very aware of where you choose to stand. I enjoy the challenge of keeping feeble, bad AC arcane casters alive through a tough adventure. Extra credit for avoiding all damage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think Invulnerable enchant is a +3 bonus. Spendy, but nice.

Sovereign Court

You can take a hit or two and move your flank so you should be fine. I was roaming about with an AC of 13 as a sorcerer for a long time. You get to a point where it just doesn't matter what your AC is if you don't max it out as hard as you can so it isn't worth the time to bother with.

You should of course have other defenses set up as the others have been suggesting. My protection of choice was mirror image.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

I ran Siege of the Diamond City for a 12 or 13th level Monk that had an AC of 10. He managed to be one of the multiple melee stars. Why didn't he die?

Ring of blinking.

How in the world did the monk only have an AC of 10? He'd need like a 6 in both dex and wisdom...

To the OP, the feat Roll With It might be useful for you, it stops you from being full attacked which will save you from a lot of damage. I made a build centered around it for fun just to see how effective it actually was and it turns out that the feat can be incredibly powerful if you focus on it at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
How in the world did the monk only have an AC of 10? He'd need like a 6 in both dex and wisdom...

Sadly, I didn't have the chance to ask him to explain over the course of the night. I just accepted it when he said I hit.


Magda, how does one use a Sipping Jacket to get a displacement effect? I have a low AC Halfling Witch who might find such a thing handy if only I understood how it worked...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Displacement is a 3rd level spell, which can be made into a potion, I believe.


Ah, I suspected as much. Thanks TOZ.


Sipping Jacket actually is very interesting, as it could potentially hold a whole host of defensive spells. Mirror Image, Displacement, Greater Stunning Barrier, Blink, etc. The swift action activation is really really really nice, as is the ability to split the duration up among encounters.

I can't take Roll With It as I'm not a goblin.

(And I was also wondering how the monk got AC 10 - my only explanation is that he was over-encumbered and just didn't feel like buying any sort of bag of holding.)

Sovereign Court

If you're going to be ridiculously easy to hit, you need to give the enemies a reason to not target you, either because they can't possibly find you or because they're just not interested in hitting you.

The only experience I have with a character with an AC that low is my dwarven invulnerable rager barbarian at level 11. When he rages and uses reckless abandon he only has an AC of 12, but he also has DR 10/-, almost 200 hit points, and is hitting for +30 doing 1d10+30


Well that's the problem - considering I have the ability to heal the entire party for over 100 HP in a round, I will be giving the enemies a HUGE reason to target me.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Sipping Jacket actually is very interesting, as it could potentially hold a whole host of defensive spells. Mirror Image, Displacement, Greater Stunning Barrier, Blink, etc. The swift action activation is really really really nice, as is the ability to split the duration up among encounters.

I can't take Roll With It as I'm not a goblin.

(And I was also wondering how the monk got AC 10 - my only explanation is that he was over-encumbered and just didn't feel like buying any sort of bag of holding.)

You are a half-elf though, so you do qualify for racial heritage (goblin). It does add another feat into an already feat starved class though...


tangent about Racial Heritage:
Isn't it kind of strange that racial heritage allows you to be a descendant of a species that is genetically incompatible with humans? For example, half-dwarfs and half-goblins don't exist, but you can take Racial Heritage (dwarf) or Racial Heritage (goblin).

Anyway, adding two feats (Racial Heritage and Roll With It) is just too much investment and is not in the spirit of the character. But, I appreciate people coming up with so many different suggestions!


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Racial Heritage: Mongrelmen answer all your questions. They can mate with ANY humanoids and are an allowable distant heritage. So a little mongrelman in you pretty much explains any other bloodline in you.


I don't think anyone's mentioned using gaseous form or any of the various other ways of becoming incorporeal. Gaseous form itself is kind of bad but if you're willing to become a ghost I hear the Charisma to AC and half damage from magic weapons is quite nice. Just ask your friendly local necromancer and I'm sure he would be happy to help you!

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