Level 7... now what?


Advice

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Silver Crusade

Here's my guy, used for Society Play.

My Build:
Captain Silvercoat, pirate captain of the Night Claw
CN Tiefling (no subrace) who worships Besmara
Savage Technologist Barbarian 1/ Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler 4/ Lore Warden Fighter 2

STR: 7
DEX: 22
CON: 14
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 5

HP: 63
INIT: 8
SPEED: 40 ft
AC: 18 (1 Armor, 6 Dex, 1 Dodge)
BAB: 7

FORT: 8
REFL: 10
WILL: 1

CMB: 5
CMD: 21

Skills (Leaving out unusable and just putting total bonus)
Acrobatics- 16
Appraise- 4
Bluff- 14
Climb- 2
Diplomancy- 14
Disable Device- 9
Disguise- -3
Escape Artist- 6
Fly- 6
Heal- 0
Intimidate- -3
Knowledge (All)- 8 (1 rank in each)
Linguistics- 8
Perception- 10
Profession (Sailor)- 14
Ride- 6
Sense Motive- 0
Sleight Of Hand- 16
Stealth- 6
Survival- 0
Swim- 4

Languages: Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Draconic, Goblin, Gnome, Halfling, Aquan

Feats: Expanded Fiendish Resistance (acid), Piranha Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlet), Weapon Specialization (Spiked Gauntlet), Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Traits: Berserker Of The Society, Student Of Philosophy
Alternate Racial Traits: Fiendish Sprinter, Prehensile Tail

Weapons
2 Mithral Spiked Gauntlets
When attacking once with Piranha Strike,
13 for 1d4+12+4 Precise Strike Deed
When Two Weapon Fighting with Piranha Strike,
11/11/6/6 for 1d4+12 each hit

2 Masterwork Cold Iron Boarding Axes
When attacking once with Piranha Strike,
12 for 1d4+10+4 Precise Strike Deed
When Two Weapon Fighting With Piranha Strike
10/10/5/5 for 1d4+10 each hit

Other Gear
Wayfinder, Ship, Belt of Incredible Dex +2, Pirate's Eye Patch, Ring of Sustenance, Besmara's Tricorne, Traveler's Any-Tool, Masterwork Thieves Tools, Haramaki (+1 armor to AC),
11,968 GP

I'm aware of these weaknesses: No will saves, low AC for level, no blunt weapon, no ranged weapon

So, I have been saving my gold to get a Ring of Invisibility but I am now having second thoughts. Should I put my gold into other items?

Since he just leveled up to his second Fighter level, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization can be replaced as well as the level entirely. Is there a better level to take, or better feats to take? My plan is to take two level dips to get bonus feats.

Should I take a level dip of Verminous Hunter and have a dead companion to have a permanent fast healing 1 and 25% ignore crits or sneak attack damage?

When/If I take a two level dip into Brawler, for the Stealth class skill, should I go with Strangler or Snakebite Striker?

Is a two level dip into Spellscar Drifter Cavalier of the Flame worth it?


Yes, spend your gold on something far more useful to you than a ring of Invisibiity.

Also, I'd suggest you stop dipping so much for such trivial things.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:

Yes, spend your gold on something far more useful to you than a ring of Invisibiity.

Also, I'd suggest you stop dipping so much for such trivial things.

What do you recommend?

Also, isn't the Fighter just a bunch of bonus feats?


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It is. But you've already got 3 classes, and are contemplating dipping 3 more. You'll be too unfocused to be good at anything, most likely. Especially when you want a dip just for a class skill.

Anywho.

You're lacking the majority of the Big 6, which besides some special exceptions (a Paladin doesn't uper need a Cloak of Resistance) are necessary. CR is calculated, pretty much, based on you having these things:

Magic weapon
Magic Armor
Ring of Protection
Amuet of Natural Armor
Cloak of Resistance
Stat booster

You're 3 of the 6.

The biggy for offense is your magic weapon. You can't even overcome DR/Magic, currently, which is a gigantic issue at 7th level.

Your AC is FAR lower than it should be, especially for someone Dex based. You really can't get away with not having the Ring and Amulet, especially since you're using a Haramaki instead of, say, a Mithral Chain Shirt (which would up your AC by 3 immediately, though cap your Max Dex at 6).

But your saves are the biggest issue.

Any caster is going to DESTROY you.

You have a high chance of failing saves vs level 1 spells cast by casters with an 18 Int (DC 15).

Pulling a random monster from the CR 8 list, we have the Hydrodaemon. He can spit on you, forcing a DC 19 Will save or fall asleep.

You need an 18. Bam. Asleep. Dead.

Mohrg, +10 melee touch attack (vs your Touch AC 17), paralysis DC 21. You need a 13. Good chance of: Bam. Paralyzed. Dead.

Erinyes Devil, DC 19 Fear. You need an 18. Bam. Panicked. Out of teh fight.

You get the idea.

Screw everything else, pump all your money into boosting your saves as much as possible before you die outright or spend multiple sessions doing nothing because you got Panicked, Nauseated, paralyzed, Dominated, or otherwise incapacitated.

Silver Crusade

Dipping Brawler gives another bonus feat, dipping Cavalier of the Flame gives Foolhardy Rush though I'm skeptical of this dip anyway, and I have as many feats as a straight Fighter does but with more abilities.

My problem with boosting Saves and AC is that I'm still going to suck at those. The Mohrg you mentioned can use his +10 melee touch attack OR can just use his 2 slams at +15. Every other pc at this level that I've seen is getting hit anyway and their ACs were 25 and higher. The best I've seen was a Snake Style Monk who put a lot into his Sense Motive.

The same applies to saves. A Level 7 one class character has +2 to will and has a high Wisdom or special ability (Swashbuckler using Charmed Life for adding CHA to Will).

Instead of trying to climb the mountain, I look for ways to just avoid the mountain. Miss chance, Snake Style, Oppurtune Parry And Riposte Deed, something, etc. I like the odds on the Mohrg's 1d20+10 vs my 1d20+15 better than him rolling 7 or higher then me rolling 18 or higher.

I will spend the gold on +1 enchantments though. No denying that. I think I am going to switch Weapon Focus and Specialization for Extra Panache and something else too.

Spellcasters are still a weakness but suffer from people being close up to their face. Step Up feat?

Also, if I take a two level of Ranger, for Brawler, I would probably take Mutagenic Mauler over the other archetypes.


I think you misunderstand how the Mohrg works.

He gets his 2 slams at 1d20+15 AND his tongue. Not one or the other.

And there's no real way to avoid this "mountain" you need better saves, full stop.

Unless you have some way to become permanently un-targetable by spells, you need better saves.

Those are just some specific monster abilities. There are plenty of spells that will screw you on that front too.

A +1 Will save is pitiful at this level. You've multiclassed with nothing but poor Will classes, have no Wis, and no Cloak, didn't take Iron Will, etc.

You're neither climbing this mountain, nor avoiding it, you're crashing right into it.

Get a +3 Cloak of Resistance with 9k of that cash. You'll be slightly less dead.

As-is your build isn't particularly good at anything (either offense or defense), and isn't likely to get much better this late in the game, so you may as well spend some time shoring up weak spots.


While the tone leaves a bit to be desired, I don't disagree with Rynjin's advice. A +3 cloak would help you all around. 15% more likely successful saves make a huge difference. At your level, the scenario's biggest threats are things that target your saves.

Choose one of your 3 classes and continue to advance it. I would never recommend anyone have more than 3 classes in PFS (really in any Pathfinder build), and only then if you were going to pick up a specific prestige class.

You also need a magic weapon. You're too high in level to be a melee fighter without one.

That's my thoughts.


Rynjin wrote:

I think you misunderstand how the Mohrg works.

He gets his 2 slams at 1d20+15 AND his tongue. Not one or the other

Why does everyone assume move actions just don't ever happen in Pathfinder?


zanbato13: If you are coming here asking for advice on how to make your character more survivable and better at doing what you want them to do then you have come to the right place. Rynjin is an experienced player and character builder, I would listen to his advice. It is all sound advice. Your saves and AC are too low for what you would expect to face at your level. He has showed that.

The only thing that I somewhat disagree with is the "spread too thin via multiclassing" thing. I have never been in the "you have to stay in one class to get the good stuff" camp. Multiclassing is used frequently for effective builds. The major exception being full casters. In fact, you can typically pick up some good saves via multiclassing.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you misunderstand how the Mohrg works.

He gets his 2 slams at 1d20+15 AND his tongue. Not one or the other

Why does everyone assume move actions just don't ever happen in Pathfinder?

Because it's rarely an issue that persists for more than the first round of combat, and he mentioned 2 slams vs 1 tongue, whereas if he moved it would be 1 slam vs 1 tongue.

Lune wrote:

zanbato13: If you are coming here asking for advice on how to make your character more survivable and better at doing what you want them to do then you have come to the right place. Rynjin is an experienced player and character builder, I would listen to his advice. It is all sound advice. Your saves and AC are too low for what you would expect to face at your level. He has showed that.

The only thing that I somewhat disagree with is the "spread too thin via multiclassing" thing. I have never been in the "you have to stay in one class to get the good stuff" camp. Multiclassing is used frequently for effective builds. The major exception being full casters. In fact, you can typically pick up some good saves via multiclassing.

Multiclassing can be very effective if you know what you're doing, but you have to be very focused to do so.

In this case, he has 3 classes that are barely complementary (the Fighter levels are practically worthless, and I can't for teh life of me figure out why he has only 1 level of that particular Barbarian archetype.

For the most part, 1 class is best, with maybe a level or two of another. Not...this. Not with him wanting to take 6 different not complimentary classes.

If he were a Savage Technologist 4/Swashbuckler 3 or some such, he'd be pretty well off.

Silver Crusade

You... make a lot of good points and are right on most things. Oh, and I misspoke on the Mohrg

How about 4000 for +1 the gauntlets, 4000 for the cloak, and 1000 +1 the haramaki? After another scenario, upgrade the cloak.

I'm still not convinced on fully raising AC. What about Opportune Parry and Riposte Deed, Extra Panche, and Combat Reflexes?

Also, I would still say I have at least an offense and I still plan to dip levels for feats.

Silver Crusade

All of this dipping imitates the Fighter but with more abilities, better Fort and Reflex saves, and more skills. I did the Barbarian level at first level mostly for fun admitting. What pirate cannot use a gun!?


Quite honestly I still think dropping the Haramaki and grabbing a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt for 1.1k is your best bet on AC raising. +4 AC right there.

Doing 4k for the gauntlets, 4 for the Cloak, and 1 for the Shirt would go a long way towards making you more survivable (percentage-wise that's +5% to-hit and +1 damage per hit, 10% higher chance of passing saves, and a whopping 20% lower chance of getting hit).

Opportune Parry and Riposte, at best, protects you once a round, and with your lackluster to-hit (+13 at best protects you 50% of the time from the best attack of CR equal creatures...when it's the CR+2 or 3 you really need to worry about), it's unreliable.

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:

Quite honestly I still think dropping the Haramaki and grabbing a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt for 1.1k is your best bet on AC raising. +4 AC right there.

Doing 4k for the gauntlets, 4 for the Cloak, and 1 for the Shirt would go a long way towards making you more survivable (percentage-wise that's +5% to-hit and +1 damage per hit, 10% higher chance of passing saves, and a whopping 20% lower chance of getting hit).

Opportune Parry and Riposte, at best, protects you once a round, and with your lackluster to-hit (+13 at best protects you 50% of the time from the best attack of CR equal creatures...when it's the CR+2 or 3 you really need to worry about), it's unreliable.

Using Oppurtune Parry and Riposte spends one use of an attack of opportunity. With Combat Reflexes, I get 7 uses of it per turn and I have +15 with a +1 Mithral Spiked Gauntlet and NOT using Piranha Strike. If I upgrade one gauntlet to +1 Answering Mithral Spiked Gauntlet, it becomes +5 for Oppurtune Parry and Riposte Deed.

The Mithral Chain Shirt would also cap my AC boosts from Dex boosts. No +2 AC when I rage.


Yes, it caps your Dex boost. But look at the math here.

You have, on one hand, 18 AC, which ups to 20 while Raging (which you get for a whopping 6 rounds a day).

On the other, you have 22 AC.

All the time.

The second one is better.

Silver Crusade

9 rounds, Berserker Of The Society trait


22 is still a bigger number than 20.

Silver Crusade

I also feel that the mithral chain shirt will also become outdated as I level and my Dex rises.


DEX isn't going to get much better; +2 more, maybe +4, which ends up the same as Rynjin's advice.


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So get the chain shirt now, and sell it later. If you end up dead, this will all be sort of irrelevant, right?


It's not like you're glued into your shirt when you buy it.


Get the chain shirt now. Shoot for Celestial Chain later.

The numbers don't lie, man. 22>18 (or 20)


If you really want Stealth as a skill, whip out Advanced Players Guide for the "Additional Traits" feat, and Ultimate Campaign for "Indomitable Faith" (+1 on all will saves), and "Highlander" (+1 Stealth, Stealth is always a class skill). If you don't like the background associated with these, talk to your GM, and see if he or she will allow you to create backgrounds that grant these abilities, but fit better with your character idea.

Silver Crusade

Mmmmmmm... Alright.

Am I stubborn yet? :P

Silver Crusade

pachristian wrote:
If you really want Stealth as a skill, whip out Advanced Players Guide for the "Additional Traits" feat, and Ultimate Campaign for "Indomitable Faith" (+1 on all will saves), and "Highlander" (+1 Stealth, Stealth is always a class skill). If you don't like the background associated with these, talk to your GM, and see if he or she will allow you to create backgrounds that grant these abilities, but fit better with your character idea.

I'm still not convinced to not dip levels so I'll get it eventually anyway.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Welcome to level 7...agent.

Actually looks like you went with a flavor build so kudos.

At this point why not dip 2 levels of monk (martial artist-any alignment). You get +3 all saves, IUS, flurry, two bonus feats, and evasion.

Gear-wise my advice would be to start loading up on ioun stones.
Here are some. Buy and use cracked versions.
1k Clear spindle. Socket this in your wayfinder for protection from possession/control effects as per Protection from Evil.
4k Pale Green Prism. +1 competence to saves.
4k Pale Green Prism. +1 competence to attack rolls.

Silver Crusade

Rerednaw wrote:

Welcome to level 7...agent.

Actually looks like you went with a flavor build so kudos.

At this point why not dip 2 levels of monk (martial artist-any alignment). You get +3 all saves, IUS, flurry, two bonus feats, and evasion.

Gear-wise my advice would be to start loading up on ioun stones.
Here are some. Buy and use cracked versions.
1k Clear spindle. Socket this in your wayfinder for protection from possession/control effects as per Protection from Evil.
4k Pale Green Prism. +1 competence to saves.
4k Pale Green Prism. +1 competence to attack rolls.

Thank you, you can ride on my ship anytime.

I always rejected the Martial Artist for replacing so many good abilities and completely forgot that it was dip-awesome. Unforunately, the feats are limited.

In Society Play, Ioun Stones only resonant at normal, not cracked or flawed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
zanbato13 wrote:


...In Society Play, Ioun Stones only resonant at normal, not cracked or flawed.

Really? Oh bummer. Okay the Pale Green is probably out at 30k. However the normal Clear Spindle is 5k and still worthwhile.

Silver Crusade

What are the rules on changing alignment?


If your concerned about Chaotic vs. Lawful for dipping in to Monk, the martial artist archetype removes alignment restrictions.

Silver Crusade

Signboy77 wrote:
If your concerned about Chaotic vs. Lawful for dipping in to Monk, the martial artist archetype removes alignment restrictions.

It's just that Sohei is better.


I would raise a hairy eyebrow if you are claiming to be a lawful, worshiper of Besmara, Pirate captain, but I suppose I can't find anything written about it. But double check the guide, as that would be a change to your character.


zanbato13 wrote:
It's just that Sohei is better.

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it. One is compatible with your level of barbarian, while the other is not.

Are you looking for just a level or two dip into monk, or is it something that you're going to stick with for the remainder of this character's PFS career?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rerednaw wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:


...In Society Play, Ioun Stones only resonant at normal, not cracked or flawed.
Really? Oh bummer. Okay the Pale Green is probably out at 30k. However the normal Clear Spindle is 5k and still worthwhile.

Duh...where is my brain. You only get 1 resonant power anyway so spend the 5k for the clear spindle. The others keep as cracked, the bonuses I was posting are innate and not based on resonance. 13k for the lot. Protection from most mindy magics, +1 atk and +1 saves is pretty decent for 13k...and all slotless.


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Rynjin has a good point. There are really only three ways to die in PFS: failed save, critical hit, or TPK.

You're vulnerable to 2 of the 3, and you're going to eat it. Especially now that you can play the 7-11 mods. The expectations have changed, and you need to be ready for that.

And get the ranged weapon, the blunt weapon and the magic weapon already.

Even if you survive, you'll start to have another problem. No one is going to want you at their table, because your character isn't up to par.

Silver Crusade

Signboy77 wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:
It's just that Sohei is better.

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it. One is compatible with your level of barbarian, while the other is not.

Are you looking for just a level or two dip into monk, or is it something that you're going to stick with for the remainder of this character's PFS career?

Just a 2 level dip.

Silver Crusade

Drogos wrote:
I would raise a hairy eyebrow if you are claiming to be a lawful, worshiper of Besmara, Pirate captain, but I suppose I can't find anything written about it. But double check the guide, as that would be a change to your character.

Actually, depending on the type pirate and crew you are, it is completely believable. Most ship fleets were like floating governments. If there were fewer ports to call safe, then they would be more lawful.

Also, it makes sense that this guy would take time to practice monk teachings to improve his hand-to-hand abilities while learning to improve his body.

Silver Crusade

Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

Rynjin has a good point. There are really only three ways to die in PFS: failed save, critical hit, or TPK.

You're vulnerable to 2 of the 3, and you're going to eat it. Especially now that you can play the 7-11 mods. The expectations have changed, and you need to be ready for that.

And get the ranged weapon, the blunt weapon and the magic weapon already.

Even if you survive, you'll start to have another problem. No one is going to want you at their table, because your character isn't up to par.

Blunt and magic I have covered now but why is blunt important? I only see it for skeletons DR.


Then I don't see how Sohei is a better choice. It will give you a measly +1 to initiative and allows you to pick mounted combat feats for the bonus feats. I'd say they are equal, but marital artist lets you multi class with barbarian - plus you get improved unarmed strike, which fits with your idea of your character studying monk teachings and learning new fighting methods.


Okay, misread Sohei. You still get imp. unarmed strike. And I forgot your strength is as low as it is. I say take iron will and keep on with lore warden.

Silver Crusade

Signboy77 wrote:
Then I don't see how Sohei is a better choice. It will give you a measly +1 to initiative and allows you to pick mounted combat feats for the bonus feats. I'd say they are equal, but marital artist lets you multi class with barbarian - plus you get improved unarmed strike, which fits with your idea of your character studying monk teachings and learning new fighting methods.

Always act in a surprise round, I still keep Improved Unarmed Strike and at 1d6 but it doesn't increase, sohei has a bit of a weapon focus which is what I use and matches better for my pirate.

Dark Archive

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you misunderstand how the Mohrg works.

He gets his 2 slams at 1d20+15 AND his tongue. Not one or the other

Why does everyone assume move actions just don't ever happen in Pathfinder?

Because melee players absolutely love charging in as soon as they can for those delicious Claw Claw Bite sandwiches. At least at my tables.

As for the build? If you wanna dip, I vote 2 levels in Bard. You get Versatile Performance to diversify your skills, a desperately needed boost to will saves, and now you can sing sea shanties. A small handful of 1st level spells maintain their use at mid/late levels and you have the ability to spend 2 Prestige Points and have a Cure Light wand. And having one of those is proper etiquette at a PFS table past level 2.

Silver Crusade

Rosc wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I think you misunderstand how the Mohrg works.

He gets his 2 slams at 1d20+15 AND his tongue. Not one or the other

Why does everyone assume move actions just don't ever happen in Pathfinder?
Because melee absolutely love charging in as soon as they can for those delicious Claw Claw Bite sandwiches. At least at my tables.

Oh please. My arrogant cocky character charges in for the Claw Claw Rend Bite Tail Sting buffet. Those poor noobs.

Silver Crusade

Rosc wrote:


Because melee players absolutely love charging in as soon as they can for those delicious Claw Claw Bite sandwiches. At least at my tables.

This morning I played in a level 7-11 PFS scenario with a tactical trap for stupid. We were playing high tier. The encounter was designed to kill a character who just can't resist charging, but was otherwise not challenging. Our group didn't fall for it, and absolutely obliterated the encounter with missile fire. Someone said, "That was easy, their tactics sucked", but then I pointed out that their tactics were a kill-trap for someone who always rushes in.

In front of the party, at charge distance and with a clear charge lane, is a really big nasty BBEG foe flanked by minions with longspears. The minions each readied actions, probably to attack the first target to come within their reach.

Had a melee player charged in, via the convenient charge lane, they would receive:

2 Readied Action attacks
2 AoOs from minions
1 AoO, probably a trip, from the BBEG
2 flanking [prone] full attacks from minions
1 flanking [prone] full attack from the BBEG
and a partridge in a pear tree

Then another minion would move (teleport) to just the right spot to block help from arriving. I know this was in their tactics block, because we didn't charge and he moved there anyway.

I've seen other 'traps for stupid' in Paizo adventures, but this one was especially stylish. It might be fun to GM this for a stupid player who fell for it.

At what point do players typically stop falling for this sort of thing? Our group sure wasn't fooled, but I'm sure many would be.

Silver Crusade

Rosc wrote:
As for the build? If you wanna dip, I vote 2 levels in Bard. You get Versatile Performance to diversify your skills, a desperately needed boost to will saves, and now you can sing sea shanties. A small handful of 1st level spells maintain their use at mid/late levels and you have the ability to spend 2 Prestige Points and have a Cure Light wand. And having one of those is proper etiquette at a PFS table past level 2.

Did you see my Charisma stat?

Silver Crusade

Magda Luckbender wrote:
At what level do players typically stop falling for this sort of thing?

Stupid players exist at all levels.

Silver Crusade

My experience is that PFS tactical play improves dramatically at the higher levels. At low levels people are always rushing recklessly in, blocking charge lanes, preventing AoOs, taking lots of needless excess damage, and getting in the way of AoE spells.

In low level play one can usually get away with this. Around level 5+ there's a stylistic shift in published adventures, and stuff gets a lot harder. The old tricks that worked fine will get your PC dead. By the time someone has invested the time to get a PFS character to level 7+, they seem to do a lot less of this stupid stuff.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Magda Luckbender wrote:

In front of the party, at charge distance and with a clear charge lane, is a really big nasty BBEG foe flanked by minions with longspears. The minions each readied actions, probably to attack the first target to come with
2 Readied Action attacks
2 AoOs from minions
1 AoO, probably a trip, from the BBEG
2 flanking [prone] full attacks from minions
1 flanking [prone] full attack from the BBEG
and a partridge in a pear tree

All the rest of that seems easy... but then they had to add a partridge? Man, they play rough in high tier PFS!

Hmm
BTW, I am singing the song in my head now and it's ALL YOUR FAULT.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Rosc wrote:


Because melee players absolutely love charging in as soon as they can for those delicious Claw Claw Bite sandwiches. At least at my tables.

This morning I played in a level 7-11 PFS scenario with a tactical trap for stupid. <snipped> Our group sure wasn't fooled, but I'm sure many would be.

:D In a similar ambush layout my Mystic Theurge promptly cast Sanctuary and then rushed the "trap". A whole lot of AoO's followed by missed Will saves later our real melee types moved in free of AoOs and demolished the foes.

Now if that partridge had been there ...

Silver Crusade

To some strange surprise, this character has made a great trap finder, usually through charging.

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