Mystic Theurge / Envoy of Balance Character Idea- Input Sought


Advice


I would like to see what others more experienced with Pathfinder think of this scheme for a character development.
The idea goes like this.

Step one- Start the character as a level 1 cleric of Neutral alignment. Take Magical Knack as one of your traits.

Step 2- Take levels 2, 3 and 4 as 3 levels of wizard [or sorcerer].

Step 3- Somehow convince a cleric of appropriate level to cast Imbue with spell ability on you and leave it in place for some time. This should be possible, it would just cost you a lot of gold. You want the ability to cast 1 3rd level spell to meet the pre-requisite for Envoy of Balance.

Step 4 At level 5 take the first level of Mystic Theurge, with step 3 and taking the right skills you can meet the pre-requisistes.

Step 5 At level 6 take the first level of Envoy of Balance. You have to spend all 3 of your level based feats to meet the pre-requisites, but it can be done. Importantly, note the wording of the spellcasting for this class "+1 level of existing class", which in contrast to many prestige classes does not have the word "divine" or "arcane" in there, meaning if you take Mystic Theurge as that existing class you get both the arcane and divine spells.

Step 6 Take the next 8 levels of Envoy of Balance with Mystic Theurge as the class you get the spells from, and the 10th level with wizard.

The result, at level 15 you have a character who can-
1 Cast spells as a level 14 wizard. This is the real point of the build, you are only one level behind in your spells and caster level in meeting the pre-requisites of Mystic Theurge, where you normally lose 3.
2 Cast as many spells as a level 11 cleric with an effective caster level of level 13 due to magical knack. This does not match the power of your wizard spells, but it adds great depth and variety to your spellcasting.
3 Can channel energy as a level 11 cleric.
4 Has all the other powers of a level 10 Envoy of Balance, which is quite a lot as this is one of the best prestige classes.


.


You would be better off with the following...

Race as Aasimar, Daylight as a spell-like ability lets you qualify for Envoy of Balance since its a 3rd level spell.

(Cha / Wis is a bit unfortunate for Wizard, but oh well.)

Build order is thus:

1 - Wizard
2 - Wizard
3 - Wizard
4 - Cleric (Trickery Domain or Fate inquisition to gain a 2nd level divine spell as a SLA)
5 - Mystic Theurge (2nd Level spells from Wizard, 2nd level divine spells from Trickery Domain or Fate inquisiton)
6- Envoy of Balance (Select Mystic Theurge as casting class... which if I were a DM I likely wouldn't allow. But whatever.)

Go 10 levels Envoy of Balance, remaining 6 as Mystic Theurge.

End with 19 wizard, 17 cleric. Double 9th level casting.

... assuming for some reason the DM let's you choose Mystic Theurge as Envoy of Balance's casting class.

Edit: Can go Sorcerer (either normal or Empyreal) to use the CHA or WIS from Aasimar better, but it slows the progression of Mystic Theurge and Envoy of Balance by one level each, unless of course you can find a way to get a 2nd level arcane SLA.)


If a GM allows the envoy to choose theurge this could be worthwhile but honestly that's HORRIBLE gaming. You would effectively overshadow everyone at your table.

That's said I would go human with dual talent sorcerer/cleric. My logic is the extra spells for sorcerer plus the possibility of fast learner feat makes for a better incentive than an aasimar or like races. May I suggest ecclisitheurge cleric since your armor is crap anyway?

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Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Step 5 At level 6 take the first level of Envoy of Balance. You have to spend all 3 of your level based feats to meet the pre-requisites, but it can be done. Importantly, note the wording of the spellcasting for this class "+1 level of existing class", which in contrast to many prestige classes does not have the word "divine" or "arcane" in there, meaning if you take Mystic Theurge as that existing class you get both the arcane and divine spells.

I do not believe Envoy of Balance can be applied in that way. This sounds very similar to the Evangelist + Mystic Theurge debates to me.

Given that it includes a condition for if you belong to multiple spellcasting classes, you must choose one to progress, I believe they intended for each level to add to a single class. However, I am not a rules guru, and cannot construct a reasoned argument after so long a shift at work. I would suggest you take this idea to the rules questions forum before you suggest this build to your GM, they may be able to decide more firmly one way or another.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:

If a GM allows the envoy to choose theurge this could be worthwhile but honestly that's HORRIBLE gaming. You would effectively overshadow everyone at your table.

That's said I would go human with dual talent sorcerer/cleric. My logic is the extra spells for sorcerer plus the possibility of fast learner feat makes for a better incentive than an aasimar or like races. May I suggest ecclisitheurge cleric since your armor is crap anyway?

Not really worth bothering for dual talent sorcerer, only gets the bonus spells for every sorcerer level he takes which for this build would be 4 max. (So 3 0 level spells, 1 1st level spells known extra)


Angry Wiggles wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Step 5 At level 6 take the first level of Envoy of Balance. You have to spend all 3 of your level based feats to meet the pre-requisites, but it can be done. Importantly, note the wording of the spellcasting for this class "+1 level of existing class", which in contrast to many prestige classes does not have the word "divine" or "arcane" in there, meaning if you take Mystic Theurge as that existing class you get both the arcane and divine spells.

I do not believe Envoy of Balance can be applied in that way. This sounds very similar to the Evangelist + Mystic Theurge debates to me.

Given that it includes a condition for if you belong to multiple spellcasting classes, you must choose one to progress, I believe they intended for each level to add to a single class. However, I am not a rules guru, and cannot construct a reasoned argument after so long a shift at work. I would suggest you take this idea to the rules questions forum before you suggest this build to your GM, they may be able to decide more firmly one way or another.

Well, I am not a rules guru either, especially not at Pathfinder.

But my education includes a Batchelor of Laws and an arts degree including lots of philosophy and as a result I can say what words mean rather well.
The Rules as Written are, as per the section of my original post you quoted, that you get the spells for one level in an existing class. Mystic Theurge is an existing class. End of story.
A GM is perfectly free to disallow it and it may not be what the persons who wrote the rules intended but those are other matters.


Sorry about the double post guys.
I was dictating when I made my last post, and I was stuttering.


Mairn wrote:

You would be better off with the following...

Race as Aasimar, Daylight as a spell-like ability lets you qualify for Envoy of Balance since its a 3rd level spell.

(Cha / Wis is a bit unfortunate for Wizard, but oh well.)

Build order is thus:

1 - Wizard
2 - Wizard
3 - Wizard
4 - Cleric (Trickery Domain or Fate inquisition to gain a 2nd level divine spell as a SLA)
5 - Mystic Theurge (2nd Level spells from Wizard, 2nd level divine spells from Trickery Domain or Fate inquisiton)
6- Envoy of Balance (Select Mystic Theurge as casting class... which if I were a DM I likely wouldn't allow. But whatever.)

Go 10 levels Envoy of Balance, remaining 6 as Mystic Theurge.

End with 19 wizard, 17 cleric. Double 9th level casting.

... assuming for some reason the DM let's you choose Mystic Theurge as Envoy of Balance's casting class.

My GM won't let spell-like abilities fulfill the pre-requisites for Mystic Theurge.

I am also unsure if you can take effectively 17 levels in Mystic Theurge, as the class only has 10 levels. Its certainly splendid if you can.


That's fine if your GM doesn't allow it, but as per the rules its valid.

If he doesn't allow SLA's, I'm pretty sure hes going to turn down the Imbue With Spell Ability as well, especially since its not a permanent character feature (and it actually seems more cheesy to me then using a SLA to qualify).


Unfortunately, a Mystic Theurge is not a 'spellcasting class', it is a prestige class that progresses your existing spellcasting classes. In this example, that would be your cleric and wizard classes. This kind of argument is quite common and has been around since the early days of D&D.

A spellcaster has a defined spell list, spells per day, spells known (if applicable), a defined casting stat and a listed way to calculate spells DC and caster level. While this is not explicitly called out in game mechanics, you will not find a 'spellcasting' class that fails to do this.

In 3.0/3.5m there were several prestige class that had their own spellcasting tables and were indeed, spellcasters in their own right. I have yet to see a Pathfinder prestige class with a separate casting table (for which I am grateful). We do not need to see the likes of the Ur-Priest, Apostle of Peace or Sublime Chord in this game.

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