Kensai / Dualist


Rules Questions


They both get Canny Defense. How do they stack? Does your Int limit increase, or are they separate abilities that can get added side by side?

If your Int mode was +5 and you have 5 levels of both would they grant +5 AC or +10 AC?


Actually, I think it would be +10.

This FAQ means that sort of thing normally wouldn't work, but in this case it's a dodge bonus equal to your intelligence bonus, and dodge bonuses always stack.

I don't think this counts as the same source, although I'm not completely sure.


The bonus would be +5.

While the levels do stack to determine what your level for the ability is, so your max would be 10 as your combined levels in classes with it are 10, you would need a +10 Int bonus as well in order to get that.

As your bonus is currently only +5 that is all you get until you raise that.


I think that the levels don't stack unless they say that they stack. Instead, you would get two separate Canny Defense pools of +5 (int bonus, max of level) each, just like you would with channel energy. And these bonuses would stack simply because they are dodge bonuses.

Lantern Lodge

The faq doesn't have any real impact on this question:

FAQ wrote:
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
Uncanny Dodge wrote:
Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Kensai Text wrote:
Canny Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name (Core Rulebook 382), save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

It should be all good by the FAQ. The real question is having two of an identical class feature. For that, I can't think of any direct rules regarding it, however, there is an example of how another class features stack, such as sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and evasion(I think). With those, they improve as if you gained levels in same class.

So, your bonus would be +5, with a cap of +10.


Evasion doesn't stack at all. The default is that similar abilities do not stack unless they specifically say that they do, as explained in this FAQ.

You would get two separate Canny Defense pools, each granting a +5 dodge bonus to your AC.


Those stack because they say they do. As mentioned earlier channel energy a similar type of class ability, and it doesn't stack. As fare as I'm aware there's no official ruling on this, so I don't think it can really be decided one way or the other.


I'd actually look at an entirely different FAQ for this. Basically what we're looking at is stacking the same class feature from two different classes. Based on this, it seems to me that the abilities would stack in such a way that your cap is increased, rather than you double-adding Int. So a Kensai 5/Duelist 5 with 20 Int would have +5 AC, but a cap of 10.

That said, not sure why you'd want to run that multiclass in the first place.


That is actually a very good point.
The FAQ I mean.


I cross-checked the wording on Myrmidarch after I posted. Nothing in its Weapon/Armor Training explicitly says that they stack with Fighter, so my understanding of the RAI is that they stack due to being literally identical abilities-- not similar, but the exact same ones, with the exact same wording. We see the same thing with animal companions, which tells me that it's not just an odd corner-case.

The FAQ linked above regarding similar abilities actually supports the idea of increasing the cap instead of double-adding. To writ:

FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Canny Defense clearly adds based on total Kensai or Duelist class levels. All is good based on that FAQ. The only potential stickler is the FAQ posted first about using ability scores twice, but as noted it's a dodge bonus and dodge bonuses are handled differently.

So yeah. With a bit more research I'm very confident in saying that the proposed character gets +5 to AC, with a cap of +10.

Lantern Lodge

Avoron wrote:

Evasion doesn't stack at all. The default is that similar abilities do not stack unless they specifically say that they do, as explained in this FAQ.

You would get two separate Canny Defense pools, each granting a +5 dodge bonus to your AC.

Thanks for correcting me evasion, I guess it was just uncanny dodge. The FAQ you linked is what I was looking for in the back of my head.

@Kestral
I think you might be misreading the FAQ? Since the abilities -dont- stack, they cannot reach a cap of 10. Instead, "[we] have to use them separately." So, as was said before, it becomes two seperate pools with a cap of 5 each, and since dodge bonuses stack, a total of 10 AC.

Thanks for correcting me on that guys. Definitely makes the Duelist a decent choice for multi classing now.


I'm not sure how I would be misreading it. The FAQ states that unless cases A or B are met, they are used separately. Case B is "adds in some way based on the character's total class levels" Canny Defense falls into Case B. Hence they would not be used separately.

Lantern Lodge

Hehe, shoot me O.o, your right.


kestral287 wrote:
That said, not sure why you'd want to run that multiclass in the first place.

full BAB progresion, Enhanced Mobility, the possibility of Canny Defense doubling, no loss in Precise Strike bonus(when not spending AP), more initiative, Combat Reflexes(although I've noticed that it causes more annoyance that I have to wait so long for it), and the possible ruleing that Riposte will be allowed to work with Opportune Parry and Riposte.


NikolaiJuno wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
That said, not sure why you'd want to run that multiclass in the first place.
full BAB progresion, Enhanced Mobility, the possibility of Canny Defense doubling, no loss in Precise Strike bonus(when not spending AP), more initiative, Combat Reflexes(although I've noticed that it causes more annoyance that I have to wait so long for it), and the possible ruleing that Riposte will be allowed to work with Opportune Parry and Riposte.

Aaat the cost of totally wasting two feats (let's be honest-- you only ever take Dodge and Mobility for pre-reqs) and losing out on your casting. But going down the list:

-Full BAB is a nice boon to be sure.
-Enhanced Mobility is... not great. By the time you can make the change (level 8), you have mobility-granting spells that can bypass AoOs from movement anyway. Bladed Dash anybody?
-Seems like Canny Defense doesn't double, unless somebody digs up a rule we haven't found yet.
-No loss in Precise Strike is also no gain in Precise Strike, so that's not a gain over just sticking with Kensai (and a minor loss due to the doubling-with-AP thing, if you ever actually use that).
-Is there really such a thing as a Dex-based Kensai (which you are if you're going Duelist, due to the Weapon Finesse prereq) that doesn't go first by default? By the time you qualify for Duelist you add both of your primary stats to initiative.
-Combat Reflexes comes in at CL12th at the earliest (Kensai 8/Duelist 4). Straight Kensai adds Int to attacks per melee at 11th. Seems like a loss, even with the nichey other ability of Combat Reflexes.
-Riposte is a nice one if it works... but that's five levels down and has an "if it works" attached. Seems like a deep dig to get to what's honestly not as great a combo in reality as it is on paper (as unlike the Swashbuckler, the Magus isn't a full BAB with accuracy boosting class-- it's not guaranteed that you'll land your parries at all, and unless you take Amateur Swashbuckler you don't get a refreshing pool of points).

Overall, doesn't seem worth it for the comparable loss of class abilities and, most importantly, spellcasting. That might just be me though. It's interesting and definitely worth considering for a gestalt game.


RAW Canny Defense would fully stack. For the example given it would be +10.

The bonuses are dodge bonuses, so they stack.
The bonuses are typed (dodge), so the FAQ saying no double dipping on a stat does not apply.
Despite the same name they are based on class level, not character level. Since they are for two separate classes that do not interact with each other for benefit they are treated as two separate abilities with their own limits.


The quoted FAQ specifically calls out similar abilities based on total class level as an example where they would be added onto each other (in the same way as an animal companion).


I am with kestral here.


kestral287 wrote:
The quoted FAQ specifically calls out similar abilities based on total class level as an example where they would be added onto each other (in the same way as an animal companion).

Do you mean this FAQ?

That one says no stacking unless based on character level.

Or do you mean this FAQ?

This on gives a ruling for a specific interaction. It applies only to Animal Companions as opposed to the previous one which gives a general rule.

Lantern Lodge

Now that you mention it, it does say character level and not class level...

To prevent myself from being that annoying back and forth guy, I'll be quiet until I have something more useful to say..


thorin001 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
The quoted FAQ specifically calls out similar abilities based on total class level as an example where they would be added onto each other (in the same way as an animal companion).

Do you mean this FAQ?

That one says no stacking unless based on character level.

Or do you mean this FAQ?

This on gives a ruling for a specific interaction. It applies only to Animal Companions as opposed to the previous one which gives a general rule.

The first, regarding Channel Energy, which provides a rather clear setup for when things are added together: when they say they do, or when the abilities are based. Read it more closely, it says class level, not character level. Canny Defense is "an ability that adds in some way based on total class levels", hence it is not used separately.


I think the phrase "character's total class levels" is actually quite ambiguous.

My interpretation is that it is referring to "the character's total levels in classes with this ability." Otherwise it would just say "the character's class level."

The example it gives, improved uncanny dodge, says "the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack." That seems to match up with my interpretation of "adds in some way based on the character's total class levels."

Whereas Canny Defense just says, "per duelist class level."


kestral287 wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
The quoted FAQ specifically calls out similar abilities based on total class level as an example where they would be added onto each other (in the same way as an animal companion).

Do you mean this FAQ?

That one says no stacking unless based on character level.

Or do you mean this FAQ?

This on gives a ruling for a specific interaction. It applies only to Animal Companions as opposed to the previous one which gives a general rule.

The first, regarding Channel Energy, which provides a rather clear setup for when things are added together: when they say they do, or when the abilities are based. Read it more closely, it says class level, not character level. Canny Defense is "an ability that adds in some way based on total class levels", hence it is not used separately.

Class levels are separate. Where are you seeing that the levels stack? Normally that is a hindrance, but in this case it is not. A 5/5 character with 2 channel energy abilities has a bunch of uses at 3d6 rather than fewer uses at 5d6. The Kensai/Duelist has a +5 Dodge bonus limited by Int and a +5 Dodge bonus limited by Int.

What you are arguing is that the bonuses stack giving a +10 Dodge bonus limited by Int. But the FAQ says that they do not stack. In any other case you would be stuck with the higher of the 2 values, but Dodge bonuses stack.


kestral287 wrote:
NikolaiJuno wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
That said, not sure why you'd want to run that multiclass in the first place.
full BAB progresion, Enhanced Mobility, the possibility of Canny Defense doubling, no loss in Precise Strike bonus(when not spending AP), more initiative, Combat Reflexes(although I've noticed that it causes more annoyance that I have to wait so long for it), and the possible ruleing that Riposte will be allowed to work with Opportune Parry and Riposte.

Aaat the cost of totally wasting two feats (let's be honest-- you only ever take Dodge and Mobility for pre-reqs) and losing out on your casting. But going down the list:

-Full BAB is a nice boon to be sure.
-Enhanced Mobility is... not great. By the time you can make the change (level 8), you have mobility-granting spells that can bypass AoOs from movement anyway. Bladed Dash anybody?
-Seems like Canny Defense doesn't double, unless somebody digs up a rule we haven't found yet.
-No loss in Precise Strike is also no gain in Precise Strike, so that's not a gain over just sticking with Kensai (and a minor loss due to the doubling-with-AP thing, if you ever actually use that).
-Is there really such a thing as a Dex-based Kensai (which you are if you're going Duelist, due to the Weapon Finesse prereq) that doesn't go first by default? By the time you qualify for Duelist you add both of your primary stats to initiative.
-Combat Reflexes comes in at CL12th at the earliest (Kensai 8/Duelist 4). Straight Kensai adds Int to attacks per melee at 11th. Seems like a loss, even with the nichey other ability of Combat Reflexes.
-Riposte is a nice one if it works... but that's five levels down and has an "if it works" attached. Seems like a deep dig to get to what's honestly not as great a combo in reality as it is on paper (as unlike the Swashbuckler, the Magus isn't a full BAB with accuracy boosting class-- it's not guaranteed that you'll land your parries at all, and unless you take Amateur Swashbuckler you don't get a...

It would be a post Kensai 11 switch for a whip master intended to use Combat Patrol and Lunge to gain a 20' reach and threat that lets me kite around the battlefield AoOing the enemy. I don't like the normal Magus spell list so this would be a wordcaster(no Bladed Dash) and Bladed Dash doesn't give any withdraw ability. The Combat Reflexes really does have even worse timing than in your example, but I mentioned that in my list already. I would probably have to retrain to get that to work, if Duelist Combat Reflexes even works as a prereq.

As for CD doubling I posted this thread because I had no idea whether that worked or not, so it was still a potentially valid option.

I may have an uncommon philosophy, but I think of the Magus as a combat class with magic capability as opposed to a magic class with combat capabilities.


If the kensai ability didn't say it was identical to the duelist ability, I'd probably say they stack (and that might be RAW anyway, but likely not RAI).

I think the intent is that they'd stack to determine the limit, so +5 with a limit of +10.

Shadow Lodge

Kensai's canny defense is not the same ability as duelist because "his chosen weapon may be of any type" hence i dont consider them the same ability.

Second by raw kensai's canny defense does not work properly if you dont have duelist levels since the wording of duelist canny defense, in which kensai's canny defense is based, explicitly calls for duelist levels. Its sensible however to assume its based on magus levels.

However assuming the second means its a completely different ability even tought they have the same name. Then, because they are dodge bonuses they stack, ability score faq changes nothing as it only addresses untyped ability bonus

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NikolaiJuno wrote:

They both get Canny Defense. How do they stack? Does your Int limit increase, or are they separate abilities that can get added side by side?

If your Int mode was +5 and you have 5 levels of both would they grant +5 AC or +10 AC?

They don't stack. They're applied separately but in essence, they are overlapping abilities. So you would simply use the higher value


LazarX wrote:
NikolaiJuno wrote:

They both get Canny Defense. How do they stack? Does your Int limit increase, or are they separate abilities that can get added side by side?

If your Int mode was +5 and you have 5 levels of both would they grant +5 AC or +10 AC?

They don't stack. They're applied separately but in essence, they are overlapping abilities. So you would simply use the higher value

They do not overlap because dodge bonuses stack. If it were any other type of bonus they would overlap.

Shadow Lodge

yep dodge bonuses always stack, the breaking point comes down to if you consider them the same ability or not


ElementalXX wrote:
yep dodge bonuses always stack, the breaking point comes down to if you consider them the same ability or not

And the FAQ says not to.


No one here is realizing something VERY important:

Canny Defense is NOT a Dodge Bonus!!

Straight from the Core Rulebook:
Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor
and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence
bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus
to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon.
If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her
Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively
avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your
Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing
armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it
limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of
bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

The bonus you get from Dexterity to AC is not a dodge bonus. They are outlined quite clearly here as separate things. All you are doing is adding your Intelligence bonus to your Dexterity bonus to AC. It would be different if it was like the bonus to AC a Paladin gets from Smite Evil (which is a Deflection bonus), but all this class ability is doing is increasing the bonus to AC from Dexterity. Since you can't add the same bonus twice, the max bonus would be +10, but you would only add the Intelligence bonus to your Dexterity bonus once.


FAQ wrote:

Duelist--Canny Defense: Does the canny defense ability add to the duelist's CMD?

As of the 6th printing of the Core Rulebook, the canny defense ability grants a dodge bonus to AC, which does improve the duelist's CMD.

(Previous to the 6th printing, the canny defense bonus was not one of the types of bonuses listed in the CMD rules, and therefore did not add to CMD.)

Update 8/26/13: Changed to reflect the revised text of this ability in the 6th printing.

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